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Post by Gilli on Aug 18, 2018 19:46:31 GMT
And yet you get the misunderstanding scene with Cassandra. Do you mean the "Are you getting married/going to propose?" scene? Probably the one where, if you flirted with her enough times as a female Inquisitor, she will tell you, that she likes you, but only as a friend. IIRC one of your dialogue choices is that you can say you were just being friendly.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Aug 18, 2018 20:01:54 GMT
Do you mean the "Are you getting married/going to propose?" scene? Probably the one where, if you flirted with her enough times as a female Inquisitor, she will tell you, that she likes you, but only as a friend. IIRC one of your dialogue choices is that you can say you were just being friendly.
You get it as male also if you flirted enough and have high enough approval to trigger the scene. I assume it is there, just as with Dorian, as a last minute way to back out before committing to the romance (I actually got the scene once unexpectedly, so I had to tell her she was mistaken). At least with Cass, once locked in, you are stuck. I think you can still break things off with Dorian later.
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Post by Gilli on Aug 18, 2018 21:00:34 GMT
Probably the one where, if you flirted with her enough times as a female Inquisitor, she will tell you, that she likes you, but only as a friend. IIRC one of your dialogue choices is that you can say you were just being friendly.
You get it as male also if you flirted enough and have high enough approval to trigger the scene. I assume it is there, just as with Dorian, as a last minute way to back out before committing to the romance (I actually got the scene once unexpectedly, so I had to tell her she was mistaken). At least with Cass, once locked in, you are stuck. I think you can still break things off with Dorian later.
I thought the "I only like you as a friend" was exclusive to fem Inquisitors? I've only romanced her once (with my Lavellan) and my only other male Inquisitor (my Trevelyan) romanced Dorian. Cassandra: "You are the Herald of Andraste, my leader... and a woman."
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Aug 18, 2018 22:43:11 GMT
I was talking about the misunderstanding scene, as in Cass misunderstanding your behavior, not the other way around.
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Post by BearKingReborn on Aug 19, 2018 1:31:47 GMT
A continuation of the discussion from the Twitter thread.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 19, 2018 1:37:20 GMT
Exactly as in DAI. I like icons to tell of my intention to flirt. I like the occasional tone icon during a reaction dialogue. I prefer the generally more neutral tone of the DAI dialogue options and felt that the DA2-style was too extreme with the personalities. That said, the DAI style still does loosely follow the same DA2 pattern of top/nice, middle/humorous, bottom/aggressive, but it's just not as extreme as DA2.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 19, 2018 2:22:48 GMT
I think the tone of your PCs lines in an RPG is particularly important now that voiced PCs are the norm and multiple personality types and tones are possible. Icons are less intrusive than "(sarcastic)" next to an option, but I can see why people might think they are garish or cartoonish.
I liked the DAI dialogue wheel a lot, it's user friendly and intuitive. It made it simple to have my Inquisitor respond to things in a personality and situationally appropriate way and I had fewer instances of "wtf did she just say?"...sigh...reload. I loved the race/spec options. I wouldn't want it reduced in scope, but I think it can be improved.
Also...accidentally sleeping with Zevran or Dorian requires some serious obliviousness, so well done anyone who managed that!
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Post by colfoley on Aug 19, 2018 3:49:46 GMT
I think the tone of your PCs lines in an RPG is particularly important now that voiced PCs are the norm and multiple personality types and tones are possible. Icons are less intrusive than "(sarcastic)" next to an option, but I can see why people might think they are garish or cartoonish. I liked the DAI dialogue wheel a lot, it's user friendly and intuitive. It made it simple to have my Inquisitor respond to things in a personality and situationally appropriate way and I had fewer instances of "wtf did she just say?"...sigh...reload. I loved the race/spec options. I wouldn't want it reduced in scope, but I think it can be improved. Also...accidentally sleeping with Zevran or Dorian requires some serious obliviousness, so well done anyone who managed that! it's an imperfect solution to an interesting problem.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 19, 2018 4:18:50 GMT
Also...accidentally sleeping with Zevran or Dorian requires some serious obliviousness, so well done anyone who managed that!
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 19, 2018 6:09:20 GMT
I think the tone of your PCs lines in an RPG is particularly important now that voiced PCs are the norm and multiple personality types and tones are possible. Looking back over the Origins dialogue lines, they also had tones, but it was harder to tell what tone they were going to have. Sarcasm was a pretty big challenge - I definitely remember misreading lines’ tone, then being surprised by an unexpected negative (or positive) reaction from the other person. I think varied tone icons should also appear on non-advancing questions, so conversations unfold more naturally instead of [exhaust all ? options] -> [proceed to one of the reaction options]. I still believe this is the main reason everyone thinks the Inquisitor has no personality... since the ? trees tend to be exhausted regardless of which Inquisitor is talking, there’s a huge amount of dialogue overlap from Inquisitor to Inquisitor. If the ? options are labelled the same as the reaction options, players are less likely to do that to themselves. For example, in Origins I couldn’t always be sure which lines would actually move the conversation forward, so I didn’t feel that metagamey urge to pick all the non-advancing options first. The reason I didn’t know is because nothing had tone labels, but exactly the same effect could be achieved if everything has a tone label, with no special “question” label.
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
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Post by melbella on Aug 19, 2018 6:16:16 GMT
The only change I'd make from DAI is to not make a flirt option replace all other "investigate" options. It should be in addition to, not instead of. Just because I want to flirt with someone, doesn't mean I don't have questions I want answered!
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 19, 2018 7:57:11 GMT
I still believe this is the main reason everyone thinks the Inquisitor has no personality... since the ? trees tend to be exhausted regardless of which Inquisitor is talking, there’s a huge amount of dialogue overlap from Inquisitor to Inquisitor. If the ? options are labelled the same as the reaction options, players are less likely to do that to themselves. The dialogue wheel works in the exact same manner as DA2, though. You have investigates that are read in a more-or-less neutral tone, and the right-side options that actually advance the conversation, all with paraphrases. The main difference between DA2 and DAI is that they specifically designed that game with the three personalities in mind and gave the VAs instructions accordingly. DAI didn't have that, so coming off DA2 Hawke, people think the Inquisitor is bland. It has nothing to do with investigates. I don't think the Inquisitor is bland, but I guess that so many do gives me a clue as to why I look at many characters differently than others.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 19, 2018 11:37:24 GMT
I like the heart icons, it means your pc going to go flirty. I do like to be in control of what the pc is saying, I remember playing FO4, and it was a pain because sometimes the pc was being an ass but you couldn't tell because the paraphrase was so-so and that was the only indication you had.
I also liked the "this is going to trigger the romance" indication, so you didn't have to use the flirty lines all the time. You knew which one were really useful, and what was fluff. I could rp a pc that was rather dense and unflirty overall and still have a romance.
The tone icons in DAI didn't leave me with a lot of impression, they rarely happened honestly.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 19, 2018 13:41:03 GMT
I still believe this is the main reason everyone thinks the Inquisitor has no personality... since the ? trees tend to be exhausted regardless of which Inquisitor is talking, there’s a huge amount of dialogue overlap from Inquisitor to Inquisitor. If the ? options are labelled the same as the reaction options, players are less likely to do that to themselves. The dialogue wheel works in the exact same manner as DA2, though. You have investigates that are read in a more-or-less neutral tone, and the right-side options that actually advance the conversation, all with paraphrases. This is true, but the Inquisitor (being the Inquisitor) had more investigate options available to them overall. DA2 had a surprising amount of within-game branching, and that partially manifested as a higher proportion of reaction lines.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 19, 2018 14:15:12 GMT
This is true, but the Inquisitor (being the Inquisitor) had more investigate options available to them overall. DA2 had a surprising amount of within-game branching, and that partially manifested as a higher proportion of reaction lines. I'm playing DA2 right now and am not noticing an appreciable difference as far as that's concerned.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Aug 19, 2018 17:19:27 GMT
A character can reject; that's fine. By having that icon, I am 100% of my own intention with picking that option. I don't care what the NPC says or does with it (ideally he'd response positively, of course, but that's beside the point). I don't tend to play flirty characters, and only flirt with my intended LI, so having those icons ensures that I'm able to stick to my roleplay in that regard. I wouldn’t mind if heart=intention to flirt, but it seems to mean “this is a thing they’ll interpret as a flirt”. If someone’s a valid LI, it’s impossible to go wrong with the heart icon, i.e. there are no flirts that significantly hurt your chances at a relationship. It would be fun to have the option to come on too strong and mess things up. That isn't true, at least not in DAI. For example, if you flirt with Cass before she's ready for it you get disapprovals. She's gotta "approve" of you by a certain amount before she'll accept the continued "flirt-progression."
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 19, 2018 17:58:33 GMT
I'm not sure I completely agree with that. While yes misinterpreting something is certainly possible in some circumstances, most of the time a person's mood can be pretty clear unless they are actively trying to conceal it, or for whatever reason have different, easily misinterpreted or missed, emotional queues. I could certainly get behind such misinterpretations under the right circumstances, of course. But if the Player character picks the "angry" options and starts yelling at someone, it only makes sense that the NPC comes to the conclusions that you are "angry". How would we know if they had? We can't read their minds, either.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 19, 2018 18:06:22 GMT
Personally I think the tone icons are vital for Role Playing, at least when it comes to personality based roleplaying and not morality based roleplaying. Because there can be vast differences of the line "Can we not try dipplomacy?" based on tone, for instance: Diplomatic: Can we please stop fighting and sit down and actually solve our problems? Sarcastic: Can we pleeeasse stop fighting and talk about things like actual adults or do you want to go back to fighting like petty children? Or Aggressive: Stop fighting or so help me Maker I will MAKE you sit down and talk! I mean essentially from a writer perspective A. All of these dialogue options essentially end in the same place with the basic propositon of us trying diplomacy but B. from a character perspective each variance and difference in response tells us a lot about what kind of person we want our characters to be. Now note voice acting does also play a role for this where I find certain voice actors tend to make it easier to play and pick certain dialogue options. I want to be able to divorce tone from word choice. If I could choose the paraphrase and tone icon separately, then the tone icon might be useful, but all it does now is constrain the number of ways each paraphrase can be used (from a character perspective). When we had the silent protagonist, we were free to assign whatever tone we wanted to each dialogue option, and even treat the options as logically equivalent paraphrases if we wanted to adjust the word choice. Tying the intended tone to the dialogue option means that each option is now a much narrower range of possibilities.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 19, 2018 18:10:29 GMT
Also...accidentally sleeping with Zevran or Dorian requires some serious obliviousness, so well done anyone who managed that! Guilty as charged.
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Post by dagless on Aug 19, 2018 18:10:51 GMT
Seems a fair number of players weren’t happy they were a bit too flirty or friendly and accidentally had sex they didn’t want. You could almost say their characters were date raped.
Perhaps BioWare could add an abort interrupt to every sex scene? A bit like the mass effect interrupts, but just labeled “Stop” or something. It could possibly trigger new dialogue choices to say you were misunderstood, changed your mind, or whatever.
It would certainly fit with BioWare’s clear desire to be “progressive” with their games (especially in light of a certain recent campaign). However I don’t think many would complain about it as I don’t see the complaint coming just from the “SJWs”. I’m guessing not many players really want to see their own character taken advantage of. At least not unless it’s made into a proper story arc.
So it’s probably a win-win.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 19, 2018 18:15:35 GMT
Personally I think the tone icons are vital for Role Playing, at least when it comes to personality based roleplaying and not morality based roleplaying. Because there can be vast differences of the line "Can we not try dipplomacy?" based on tone, for instance: Diplomatic: Can we please stop fighting and sit down and actually solve our problems? Sarcastic: Can we pleeeasse stop fighting and talk about things like actual adults or do you want to go back to fighting like petty children? Or Aggressive: Stop fighting or so help me Maker I will MAKE you sit down and talk! I mean essentially from a writer perspective A. All of these dialogue options essentially end in the same place with the basic propositon of us trying diplomacy but B. from a character perspective each variance and difference in response tells us a lot about what kind of person we want our characters to be. Now note voice acting does also play a role for this where I find certain voice actors tend to make it easier to play and pick certain dialogue options. It's certainly needed if we have to rely on paraphrases for conversation options. I strongly disagree with this. The writers can use the tone icons as a crutch to convey meaning that should properly be in the paraphrase. The protagonist's words should NEVER surprise the player. The paraphrase should be an unambiguous tool to tell us what will be said; moving any of that meaning to the tone icon guarantees some ambiguity. I would solve this problem by breaking up the writing tasks. Have the full dialogue and tone written by one writer, but then have the paraphrases written blind by another, with no knowledge of what the tone icon is.
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 19, 2018 18:17:52 GMT
When we had the silent protagonist, we were free to assign whatever tone we wanted to each dialogue option, and even treat the options as logically equivalent paraphrases if we wanted to adjust the word choice. Tying the intended tone to the dialogue option means that each option is now a much narrower range of possibilities. But we couldn’t assign whatever tone we wanted to the response it got. More often than not the response was a clear indicator of the intended tone of the chosen dialogue. Thus it became rather limited in how many ways the line could be delivered and still make sense.
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Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 19, 2018 18:27:18 GMT
When we had the silent protagonist, we were free to assign whatever tone we wanted to each dialogue option, and even treat the options as logically equivalent paraphrases if we wanted to adjust the word choice. Tying the intended tone to the dialogue option means that each option is now a much narrower range of possibilities. But we couldn’t assign whatever tone we wanted to the response it got. More often than not the response was a clear indicator of the intended tone of the chosen dialogue. Thus it became rather limited in how many ways the line could be delivered and still make sense. People have been telling me this for years, and I have never understood it. I still don't. In order for what you say to be true, we would need to be able to know why an NPC delivered a line the way she did, and based on that know how she interpreted what we said before that, and based on that know how we must have said that line in order to induce that interpretation. The level of mind-reading required for that to make any sense strains credulity. In DAO, there was a conversation with Leliana where my Warden was trying to flirt with her. She responded as if he'd been joking (the writers had meant the line as a joke, not a serious come-on). My Warden was terribly embarrassed, and literally never spoke to her again. That's quality roleplaying content, one that would have been impossible if we could read minds to the degree you seem to think we can.
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 19, 2018 21:10:25 GMT
But we couldn’t assign whatever tone we wanted to the response it got. More often than not the response was a clear indicator of the intended tone of the chosen dialogue. Thus it became rather limited in how many ways the line could be delivered and still make sense. People have been telling me this for years, and I have never understood it. I still don't. In order for what you say to be true, we would need to be able to know why an NPC delivered a line the way she did, and based on that know how she interpreted what we said before that, and based on that know how we must have said that line in order to induce that interpretation. The level of mind-reading required for that to make any sense strains credulity. In DAO, there was a conversation with Leliana where my Warden was trying to flirt with her. She responded as if he'd been joking (the writers had meant the line as a joke, not a serious come-on). My Warden was terribly embarrassed, and literally never spoke to her again. That's quality roleplaying content, one that would have been impossible if we could read minds to the degree you seem to think we can. LOL! sorry but i.m getting the hint you know little about relationships with the opposite sex, Flame me if I,m wrong which I,m sure you will but I prefer to figure it out for myself rather have Bioware tell me she/he is interested in me.
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
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Post by melbella on Aug 20, 2018 0:00:49 GMT
In DAO, there was a conversation with Leliana where my Warden was trying to flirt with her. She responded as if he'd been joking (the writers had meant the line as a joke, not a serious come-on). My Warden was terribly embarrassed, and literally never spoke to her again. That's quality roleplaying content, one that would have been impossible if we could read minds to the degree you seem to think we can.
Are you sure that's what they intended? How can you tell if there is no tone icon present? Maybe it was a serious flirt and Leliana just didn't like your Warden? How do you know otherwise?
I don't like not knowing what my PC is going to say or *how* they're going to say it. In real life, if a sarcastic remark flies over someone's head, you can at least tell them you were trying to be funny. Not so in DAO. If Alistair doesn't get your dumb jokes, he's mad and there's nothing you can do about it except feed him cookies to raise his approval back up.
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