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Post by vertigomez on Oct 29, 2018 19:51:37 GMT
Putting Bhelen on the throne feels so wrong. Sometimes I wonder if it was worth it. All up to your character, what they value and how much they care about the dwarven people (and that last bit could mean anything from caring about all dwarves as individuals to caring about upholding their sacred traditions). I always feel a bit sick-sad-wrong when Bhelen straight-up calls for Harrowmont's execution upon getting the crown, as in that moment especially he seems like a feeble, doddering old man, if honorable....... but then I remember that he thinks my casteless Warden and everyone they grew up with is icky and deserving of their fate and seals Orzammar off from the rest of the world in the name of tradition when they desperately need aid in the form of troops, rations, and trade. He backs a law that restricts casteless from even walking in the Commons and stomps the rebellion that follows. So then I don't feel so bad.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2018 1:54:53 GMT
You know, I think I prefer Aeducan killing Trian rather than just being framed for it. They both have their share of drama but being duped into doing it by Bhelen makes your character feel more flawed - partly because they're not immediately able to sniff out Bhelen's schemes and partly because they're, you know, willing to kill their brother. It says something about the world they grew up in. Instead of painting Aeducan as a victim, totally justified in taking Bhelen's head off, things are a little more ambiguous. Yeah, little bro manipulated you into doing it, but you're the one who ultimately made that decision. The weight of your father's disappointment, everyone you know calling you "kinslayer" when you return to Orzammar... it's all based in reality. You are the one who brought dishonor on your house and the rest of the game becomes more of a redemption story than a revenge arc.
Plus, Trian's lines at the Gauntlet change if you kill him vs. being set up, which I think is neat.
I still love them both, but I think for my canon Aeducan I'm going to go this route.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 31, 2018 2:28:31 GMT
vertigomez You raise some interesting points here. While I generally like the nobility route (Cousland, Trevelyan), I'm not too keen on the Aeducan route even though it's my preference for the two dwarf DAO origins. It seems that being raised in that environment should produce someone who is more politically savvy. In addition, in having grown up with both brothers, you know their personalities; you should know Behlen for the manipulative bastard he is. It's not my experience that the game allows you to play someone that is savvy, while also not being completely ruthless. In other words, I don't feel that I can play someone that is not naive (so that you end up being duped and framed) while also not wanting to kill Trian for my own advancement. There are many people that want some power (being a military commander), but not all the power (being king). That type of character is my preference. My Aeducan is more than happy to allow Trian to take the throne when the time comes and is satisfied with her current position; she might angle for something higher in the future, but not the top job. But that doesn't also have to mean she isn't skilled in the Game and can use it to her advantage and protection.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2018 3:10:04 GMT
vertigomez You raise some interesting points here. While I generally like the nobility route (Cousland, Trevelyan), I'm not too keen on the Aeducan route even though it's my preference for the two dwarf DAO origins. It seems that being raised in that environment should produce someone who is more politically savvy. In addition, in having grown up with both brothers, you know their personalities; you should know Behlen for the manipulative bastard he is. It's not my experience that the game allows you to play someone that is savvy, while also not being completely ruthless. In other words, I don't feel that I can play someone that is not naive (so that you end up being duped and framed) while also not wanting to kill Trian for my own advancement. There are many people that want some power (being a military commander), but not all the power (being king). That type of character is my preference. My Aeducan is more than happy to allow Trian to take the throne when the time comes and is satisfied with her current position; she might angle for something higher in the future, but not the top job. But that doesn't also have to mean she isn't skilled in the Game and can use it to her advantage and protection. I get it. It really is a careful balance of roleplaying and realism, what motivates your character, how far they're willing to go, and what you as a player are going to enjoy. My Aeducan had no particular desire to be queen, though privately she did think Trian would make a poor king as he seemed more concerned with glory and posturing than, you know, actually doing something about the darkspawn. She was a warrior first and foremost, a scholar of dwarven history and she considered herself the responsible sibling, with Trian as the inveterate nobleman and Bhelen as the put-upon but harmless younger sibling with a penchant for adopting social causes. She wasn't stupid, but she was not as politically savvy as her younger brother. Her first concern was always the darkspawn threat and the survival of Orzammar as a whole. She considered Trian's grandstanding an annoyance and didn't catch onto Bhelen's scheming until it was too late. But the main reason she killed Trian wasn't because she wanted to be queen - it was because Bhelen insinuates that Trian sees you as a threat, and she didn't want Trian coming for her head. She had real work to do, after all. If Bhelen had come out and said he wanted to be king, she would've supported him. I just found this way more satisfying than my original DN playthrough, where my Aeducan was a paragon (no pun intended) of goodness, saw right through everyone's machinations, and was victimized by her evil brother. This time around she did have blind spots - or "priorities", as she would call them - and had the capacity to be ruthless, and also to regret her actions later down the line.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 31, 2018 11:03:35 GMT
You know, I think I prefer Aeducan killing Trian rather than just being framed for it. They both have their share of drama but being duped into doing it by Bhelen makes your character feel more flawed - partly because they're not immediately able to sniff out Bhelen's schemes and partly because they're, you know, willing to kill their brother. It says something about the world they grew up in. Instead of painting Aeducan as a victim, totally justified in taking Bhelen's head off, things are a little more ambiguous. Yeah, little bro manipulated you into doing it, but you're the one who ultimately made that decision. The weight of your father's disappointment, everyone you know calling you "kinslayer" when you return to Orzammar... it's all based in reality. You are the one who brought dishonor on your house and the rest of the game becomes more of a redemption story than a revenge arc. Plus, Trian's lines at the Gauntlet change if you kill him vs. being set up, which I think is neat. I still love them both, but I think for my canon Aeducan I'm going to go this route. You... can kill Trian? How?
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Post by Iddy on Oct 31, 2018 11:05:28 GMT
vertigomez You raise some interesting points here. While I generally like the nobility route (Cousland, Trevelyan), I'm not too keen on the Aeducan route even though it's my preference for the two dwarf DAO origins. It seems that being raised in that environment should produce someone who is more politically savvy. In addition, in having grown up with both brothers, you know their personalities; you should know Behlen for the manipulative bastard he is. It's not my experience that the game allows you to play someone that is savvy, while also not being completely ruthless. In other words, I don't feel that I can play someone that is not naive (so that you end up being duped and framed) while also not wanting to kill Trian for my own advancement. There are many people that want some power (being a military commander), but not all the power (being king). That type of character is my preference. My Aeducan is more than happy to allow Trian to take the throne when the time comes and is satisfied with her current position; she might angle for something higher in the future, but not the top job. But that doesn't also have to mean she isn't skilled in the Game and can use it to her advantage and protection. Aeducan can be politically savvy, like when s/he orders the assassination of that guy who was arguing with the scholar, how you handle the merchant selling a dagger or refusing that request to defend the surfacers. S/He only isn't politically savvy when the plot demands so.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2018 15:45:18 GMT
You know, I think I prefer Aeducan killing Trian rather than just being framed for it. They both have their share of drama but being duped into doing it by Bhelen makes your character feel more flawed - partly because they're not immediately able to sniff out Bhelen's schemes and partly because they're, you know, willing to kill their brother. It says something about the world they grew up in. Instead of painting Aeducan as a victim, totally justified in taking Bhelen's head off, things are a little more ambiguous. Yeah, little bro manipulated you into doing it, but you're the one who ultimately made that decision. The weight of your father's disappointment, everyone you know calling you "kinslayer" when you return to Orzammar... it's all based in reality. You are the one who brought dishonor on your house and the rest of the game becomes more of a redemption story than a revenge arc. Plus, Trian's lines at the Gauntlet change if you kill him vs. being set up, which I think is neat. I still love them both, but I think for my canon Aeducan I'm going to go this route. You... can kill Trian? How? When Bhelen pulls you aside to tell you Trian wants you dead, you can agree and say you're going to kill him before he kills you. Then the sequence in the Deep Roads plays out a bit differently.
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Post by Curious Crow on Oct 31, 2018 15:52:55 GMT
As time goes on I do prefer killing Trian. Had two motives that stuck with me. One for a lady Aeducan who was thinking of his Breeding Flesh comment as she hacked her axe in him over and over. Second was a lord Aeducan who realized he was duped once Trian confronted him, but also realized he didn't care and since he was already in too deep he might as well enjoy separating that condescending head off it's shoulders.
Edit: And also I do like that you can shank the scout and your dad basically goes "No wait, it's cool, I would have done the same. Now let's ask Ivo".
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Oct 31, 2018 17:05:20 GMT
One of my favorite playthroughs was an Aeducan who really played the political game while in Orzammar. It was the moment when Endrin and all the nobles come up after he killed Trian that it really sunk in for him what he had done. As such he took his sentence to kill darkspawn until they overwhelm him quite literally as a grey warden, later choosing to do the ultimate sacrifice.
Also I took Bhelen's betrayal to show him as being more politically savvy than the warden. When he tells you Trian's planning to kill you he refers to you as "the sibling he actually likes". I like to imagine that at least from the warden's perspective the two were quite close growing up. As such they never would have seen the betrayal coming.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 31, 2018 17:13:14 GMT
One thing I consider when playing Aeducan is that s/he is said to be very popular with the people of Orzammar. So I give him/her a pleasant personality and a general respect for tradition.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2018 20:54:15 GMT
One thing I consider when playing Aeducan is that s/he is said to be very popular with the people of Orzammar. So I give him/her a pleasant personality and a general respect for tradition. I like to think my Aeducan was popular because she was perceived as easier to manipulate than either of her social climber siblings. Trian had an ego the size of Ortan Thaig and had his head shoved firmly up his arse, and Bhelen had been setting his plot in motion and trading favors and probably low-key assassinating people for years so somebody out there had to be aware of his deceitful nature, plus his progressive reforms wouldn't go over well in the Assembly. Meanwhile my Aeducan respected the traditions, was scholarly and didn't make waves, and was more Deep-Roads-excursion inclined and she lived by Ser Bryant's words: "Only fools fight over who owns a cottage while it burns down around them." So yeah. Easier to manipulate, therefore popular with her backstabbing, social climbing peers.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2018 20:56:30 GMT
And also I do like that you can shank the scout and your dad basically goes "No wait, it's cool, I would have done the same. Now let's ask Ivo". I loved that, too. "Murder's fine, that lowlife impugned your honor, nbd."
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Oct 31, 2018 22:44:34 GMT
And also I do like that you can shank the scout and your dad basically goes "No wait, it's cool, I would have done the same. Now let's ask Ivo". I loved that, too. "Murder's fine, that lowlife impugned your honor, nbd." I've never taken that option before. I guess I always assumed it would make you look more guilty. Gotta add that to my to try list
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Post by vertigomez on Nov 2, 2018 23:34:06 GMT
Rica Brosca punching me in the feels again *upturns every table in sight*
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 2, 2018 23:49:30 GMT
vertigomez Damn... I forgot about that (it's been a many years since I played through the dwarf commoner origin). Elements like that are what make that origin one of the more emotionally compelling. On my Brosca, I gave her a shaved head and, Fantine-like, headcanoned that she sold her hair for extra money to feed the family.
To be honest, the city elf and Cousland (Cousland is my canon) origins are almost so excessive they're akin to tragedy porn, which lessens the impact for me. In my recent run, I ended up feeling more of an emotional connection to the idea of a lost (stolen) opportunity with Dairren than at Mom and Dad's deaths. While I prefer human for various reasons, the DAO dwarf stuff is my favorite content in the game. Yes, even the Deep Roads.
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Post by vertigomez on Nov 3, 2018 0:21:39 GMT
vertigomez Damn... I forgot about that (it's been a many years since I played through the dwarf commoner origin). Elements like that are what make that origin one of the more emotionally compelling. On my Brosca, I gave her a shaved head and, Fantine-like, headcanoned that she sold her hair for extra money to feed the family. To be honest, the city elf and Cousland (Cousland is my canon) origins are almost so excessive they're akin to tragedy porn, which lessens the impact for me. In my recent run, I ended up feeling more of an emotional connection to the idea of a lost (stolen) opportunity with Dairren than at Mom and Dad's deaths. While I prefer human for various reasons, the DAO dwarf stuff is my favorite content in the game. Yes, even the Deep Roads. I love that headcanon! I did something similar. After that shady fella in the Commons asks to buy some of your teeth, I headcanon that my dwarves do exactly that, and in later years their smiles are notable for having a few silver teeth. You do what you gotta do to survive Dust Town. Both the CE and HN origins got to me in different ways - I'm a sucker for pain, and I cried during both - but DC gets me because there is no one on your side except Rica (and eventually Duncan, if you're lucky enough to meet him). When I play other origins, it really pains me to imagine Brosca giving up on life, allowing themselves to starve to death in Beraht's cell, hopeless and certain in the knowledge that they've failed Rica and their life amounted to nothing just like everyone said. Ouch.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,835 Likes: 7,947
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Nov 3, 2018 8:28:26 GMT
When I play other origins, it really pains me to imagine Brosca giving up on life, allowing themselves to starve to death in Beraht's cell, hopeless and certain in the knowledge that they've failed Rica and their life amounted to nothing just like everyone said. Ouch. All the origins end poorly if Duncan doesn't decide to go to your particular location, but I think casteless dwarf is the worst. At least the others probably die fast.
(Also: I would like to blame this entire thread for the Aeducan playthrough I am currently documenting in the 'What did you do today in DA?' thead. Not that I wasn't going to get around to it eventually.)
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Post by vertigomez on Nov 3, 2018 9:40:53 GMT
All the origins end poorly if Duncan doesn't decide to go to your particular location, but I think casteless dwarf is the worst. At least the others probably die fast. Oh, certainly. That's one of the things I like most about Origins. I shudder to think what happened to Tabris (not to mention Cyrion getting sold into slavery....) and the thought of Cousland getting slaughtered with their family, leaving Fergus behind... Mahariel dying a slow, agonizing death from the Taint... yeeeaah, it's not pretty for anyone. But at least they all had a decent life before they died. Brosca just kinda got crapped on their whole life and died in a cage. 😓 I noticed that!
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Post by Curious Crow on Nov 3, 2018 14:22:19 GMT
I guess it's good that Aeducan is usually referred as a male if you don't play the Origin, since he probably just gets killed by the darkspawn. It would be a sad fate to be tricked by your brother and then getting to spend the rest of your life breeding genlocks in the Deep Roads. Heck Mahariel might also have the same fate if she's a lass, there were still darkspawn in the ruins and woods, a couple might stumble up on her and keep her alive so that she might bolster their shriek numbers.
Granted Lord Aeducan might have been turned into a ghoul as well. Living like Ruck, hiding in caves and fighting spiders for scrap meat. Or maybe he's lucky and the Legion of the Dead snatches him up. Giving him a bit more livelier death. So he's got quite a few headcanonable endings.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 3, 2018 14:22:51 GMT
What are the differences and similarities between dwarven politics and Orlesian politics?
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copper
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Nov 3, 2018 14:48:34 GMT
What are the differences and similarities between dwarven politics and Orlesian politics? Hmm. They're both pretty cutthroat. I think one notable difference is the caste system in Orzammar. It would be much harder to be a dwarf commoner than an Orlesian commoner, who at least won't be prevented from moving up in the world if the circumstances are right. Religion in general seems to have a greater influence in Orzammar than in Orlais. Most orlesians are andrastian, but for many of them I'd imagine their faith is just part of their persona for the game. I don't recall any dwarf atheists that are in Orzammar. For them the Stone and Ancestors is just an undeniable fact.
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N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,835 Likes: 7,947
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Nov 4, 2018 7:36:56 GMT
Oh, certainly. That's one of the things I like most about Origins. I shudder to think what happened to Tabris (not to mention Cyrion getting sold into slavery....) and the thought of Cousland getting slaughtered with their family, leaving Fergus behind... Mahariel dying a slow, agonizing death from the Taint... yeeeaah, it's not pretty for anyone. But at least they all had a decent life before they died. Brosca just kinda got crapped on their whole life and died in a cage. 😓
Another reason playing Brosca is so great: you get to save them from (arguably) an even worse fate than the rest of the origins!
I mean, I had been planning for my next Warden to be an Aeducan for months, but when I saw the discussion of whether it was more narratively satisfying to kill Trian or be innocent, well, it definitely moved my timeline up.
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Post by wickedcool on Nov 15, 2018 14:03:47 GMT
Dwarf tattoo question
Male dwarf tattoo with the eye black and lines across mouth- this style of tattoo reserved for legion of dead? Korbin in multiplayer has this while Renn has a the one to the right of it but has some of the same parts. I’ve gone back to dao and looked at many npcs and some of the carta dwarfs in dao have tattoos but not those
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Post by Iddy on Nov 16, 2018 4:59:47 GMT
Dwarf tattoo question Male dwarf tattoo with the eye black and lines across mouth- this style of tattoo reserved for legion of dead? Korbin in multiplayer has this while Renn has a the one to the right of it but has some of the same parts. I’ve gone back to dao and looked at many npcs and some of the carta dwarfs in dao have tattoos but not those Pretty sure that's a Legion of the Dead thing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 16, 2018 5:11:06 GMT
Dwarf tattoo question Male dwarf tattoo with the eye black and lines across mouth- this style of tattoo reserved for legion of dead? Korbin in multiplayer has this while Renn has a the one to the right of it but has some of the same parts. I’ve gone back to dao and looked at many npcs and some of the carta dwarfs in dao have tattoos but not those Pretty sure that's a Legion of the Dead thing. Yeah. Looking at the wiki it says: Grim tattoos are also applied at the "funerals" of the dwarves who join the Legion of the Dead.
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