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Post by Heimdall on Sept 9, 2018 18:16:01 GMT
Agreed. And I'd like to toss in Morrigan as well. And Leliana as well. Yes Though I liked her, I was glad that Trespasser’s epilogue set the stage for leaving her behind entirely. |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 19:04:45 GMT
Yes Though I liked her, I was glad that Trespasser’s epilogue set the stage for leaving her behind entirely. Are you sure? What about the post-epilogue scene? |
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 9, 2018 19:47:06 GMT
Yes Though I liked her, I was glad that Trespasser’s epilogue set the stage for leaving her behind entirely. Are you sure? What about the post-epilogue scene? I feel pretty confident. Despite her appearance in that epilogue, to my knowledge all the slides (sans the lyrium ghost one, where she disappears) indicate that she is preparing replacements and training the likes of Charter to take her place. And Charter has been prominent in the comics ever since. I doubt we’ll see Leliana much again. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2018 19:52:00 GMT
Are you sure? What about the post-epilogue scene? I feel pretty confident. Despite her appearance in that epilogue, to my knowledge all the slides (sans the lyrium ghost one, where she disappears) indicate that she is preparing replacements and training the likes of Charter to take her place. And Charter has been prominent in the comics ever since. I doubt we’ll see Leliana much again. Yeah, the most I see Leliana appearing is in a small cameo role, like for example if Divine Victoria appears in a scene or something. |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 20:26:41 GMT
Are you sure? What about the post-epilogue scene? I feel pretty confident. Despite her appearance in that epilogue, to my knowledge all the slides (sans the lyrium ghost one, where she disappears) indicate that she is preparing replacements and training the likes of Charter to take her place. And Charter has been prominent in the comics ever since. I doubt we’ll see Leliana much again. "Until I am needed. I am free." I, on the other hand, am fairly sure that they still have some plans for Leliana  |
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Post by melbella on Sept 9, 2018 20:52:45 GMT
Or, they could finally let the dead rest. Is that too much to ask? If only we could kill (for real and permanently) Morrigan....
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 21:43:44 GMT
Leliana needs to go. The number of decisions that need to be disregarded to incorporate her presence in the game is not insignificant. Like whether characters hardened or softened Leliana in Origins, and how that no longer matters in Inquisition. Instead you get to harden or soften her again. And yes people change as they get older, but the idea that people can take head in two completely different directions personality wise and arrive at the exact same spot 10 years later is farcical. She's the writers' darling, and it shows.
Can we get some new characters or something?
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 9, 2018 21:53:24 GMT
I feel pretty confident. Despite her appearance in that epilogue, to my knowledge all the slides (sans the lyrium ghost one, where she disappears) indicate that she is preparing replacements and training the likes of Charter to take her place. And Charter has been prominent in the comics ever since. I doubt we’ll see Leliana much again. "Until I am needed. I am free." I, on the other hand, am fairly sure that they still have some plans for Leliana Even that one has her disappear though, doesn’t it? I considered that a “and she continued to do good for the rest of her days” soft exit. Besides, we have to consider that she’s a potential Divine Victoria. For that reason alone, I’d consider her making an appearance in another major role unlikely. |
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 9, 2018 21:55:53 GMT
Or, they could finally let the dead rest. Is that too much to ask? If only we could kill (for real and permanently) Morrigan....
"Much have I fared, much have I found,
Much have I got of the gods:
Whence comes the sun to the smooth sky back,
When Fenrir has snatched it forth?"
Vafthruthnir spake:
"A daughter bright Alfrothul bears
Ere Fenrir snatches her forth;
Her mother's paths shall the maiden tread
When the gods to death have gone."- Poetic EddaRagnarök is on our doorstep. Now that the sun has been devoured by the great wolf, her daughter must take her place after the world is reborn. Suffice to say, I’ll be pretty surprised if Morrigan doesn’t survive the coming apocalypse.  |
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 22:03:14 GMT
"Until I am needed. I am free." I, on the other hand, am fairly sure that they still have some plans for Leliana Even that one has her disappear though, doesn’t it? I considered that a “and she continued to do good for the rest of her days” soft exit. Besides, we have to consider that she’s a potential Divine Victoria. For that reason alone, I’d consider her making an appearance in another major role unlikely. Similarly I would have thought her being potentially dead in Origins meant making an appearance (for all players) in Inquisition unlikely. If they continue down this road Bioware will just make a mockery of the whole choice and consequence thing in their games. Because it doesn't matter what choices you make she'll still be there, in whatever role the writers want her to be. Players choices be damned. |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 22:06:36 GMT
"Until I am needed. I am free." I, on the other hand, am fairly sure that they still have some plans for Leliana  Even that one has her disappear though, doesn’t it? I considered that a “and she continued to do good for the rest of her days” soft exit. Besides, we have to consider that she’s a potential Divine Victoria. For that reason alone, I’d consider her making an appearance in another major role unlikely. The fact that she disappears doesn't mean that we know where and when she will appear though. And there is no way of telling how Solas's plan will affect the world in the next chapter. So will it really matter whether she disappears or is a potential Divine Victoria*? I don't think we can tell at this point. *(that doesn't stop her from being part of Inquisitions' new Inner Circle and thus having direct involvement with whatever Inky is planning) |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 22:13:29 GMT
Even that one has her disappear though, doesn’t it? I considered that a “and she continued to do good for the rest of her days” soft exit. Besides, we have to consider that she’s a potential Divine Victoria. For that reason alone, I’d consider her making an appearance in another major role unlikely. Similarly I would have thought her being potentially dead in Origins meant making an appearance (for all players) in Inquisition unlikely. If they continue down this road Bioware will just make a mockery of the whole choice and consequence thing in their games. Because it doesn't matter what choices you make she'll still be there, in whatever role the writers want her to be. Players choices be damned. Huh, I didn't know all our choices circle around whether we kill certain characters or not... We already know that aside from offering us choices, Dragon Age has a story it wants to tell and a world in which past choices can be invalidated, sometimes even by future PC. |
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 22:16:59 GMT
Similarly I would have thought her being potentially dead in Origins meant making an appearance (for all players) in Inquisition unlikely. If they continue down this road Bioware will just make a mockery of the whole choice and consequence thing in their games. Because it doesn't matter what choices you make she'll still be there, in whatever role the writers want her to be. Players choices be damned. Huh, I didn't know all our choices circle around whether we kill certain characters or not... We already know that aside from offering us choices, Dragon Age has a story it wants to tell and a world in which past choices can be invalidated, sometimes even by future PC. I have no doubt that past choices can be invalidated in Dragon Age, they've done it plenty of times before. It just shows Bioware doesn't care about choices and consequences in their games, which is one more reason why they're losing me as a fan. As people are always fond of telling us, writing in gaming is different from writing a novel. The player often has more input in a game, it's a lesson Bioware should remember. |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 22:27:39 GMT
Huh, I didn't know all our choices circle around whether we kill certain characters or not... We already know that aside from offering us choices, Dragon Age has a story it wants to tell and a world in which past choices can be invalidated, sometimes even by future PC. I have no doubt that past choices can be invalidated in Dragon Age, they've done it plenty of times before. It just shows Bioware doesn't care about choices and consequences in their games, which is one more reason why they're losing me as a fan. As people are always fond of telling us, writing in gaming is different from writing a novel. The player often has more input in a game, it's a lesson Bioware should remember. Strangely enough, most games don't offer as many choices as Dragon Age does, including many RPGs. Nevermind that I don't think you'd find that many people who'd agree that player choice and consequences are the end-all-be-all of storytelling in gaming. If it's a rich world with more than one hero and a multitude of problems and interests, it's only natural for some choices to not have as much of an impact as we'd have initially expected. IMO, Bioware writers shouldn't consider player's choices as being of utmost importance to their epic, multi-chapter storytelling, because that's just a quick road to epic disaster. |
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 22:37:24 GMT
IAs people are always fond of telling us, writing in gaming is different from writing a novel. The player often has more input in a game, it's a lesson Bioware should remember. IMO, Bioware writers shouldn't consider player's choices as being of utmost importance to their epic, multi-chapter storytelling, because that's just a quick road to epic disaster. I couldn't disagree more with this statement, and I doubt it's a statement based on anything solid either. |
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 9, 2018 22:44:05 GMT
Even that one has her disappear though, doesn’t it? I considered that a “and she continued to do good for the rest of her days” soft exit. Besides, we have to consider that she’s a potential Divine Victoria. For that reason alone, I’d consider her making an appearance in another major role unlikely. The fact that she disappears doesn't mean that we know where and when she will appear though. And there is no way of telling how Solas's plan will affect the world in the next chapter. So will it really matter whether she disappears or is a potential Divine Victoria*? I don't think we can tell at this point. *(that doesn't stop her from being part of Inquisitions' new Inner Circle and thus having direct involvement with whatever Inky is planning)They could potentially work with that, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see her referenced as Divine Victoria by working with the Inquisition. But I feel Leliana has reached a limit of sorts. She’s had more or less the same character arch in two games and they’ve already truncated our choices regarding her substantially to justify her continued appearance. I don’t think there’s much more to be done with her. Virtually all the epilogues regarding her read as preparation for an exit, or at least a step into the background to me. |
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 22:44:09 GMT
Bioware needs to retcon so many decisions because it's poorly planned and they're flying by the seat of their pants. The decision of Anders joining the grey wardens didn't need to be retconned, except they didn't plan forward. Leliana potentially dying in Origins doesn't need to be retconned, except they had no idea they were going to use her so heavily in future games. The decision to soften Leliana in Origins likewise.
Everything can very easily be avoided by a little planning, or just using alternate characters. Taking into consideration player choices doesn't mean it will lead to epic disaster ... it does take a little forward thinking though. And not doing everything on a whim.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 22:56:35 GMT
IMO, Bioware writers shouldn't consider player's choices as being of utmost importance to their epic, multi-chapter storytelling, because that's just a quick road to epic disaster. I couldn't disagree more with this statement, and I doubt it's a statement based on anything solid either. As solid as, say, multiple comments of Gaider about player choice (or rather the illusion of choice) in various different interviews, for example? Besides, it's not hard to imagine why my reasoning is solid if you only think about branching narrative for a minute or two, especially in a multi-chapter series that continues story not long after the preceding one. At some point you just end up with a mess and an expensive one too. For me, what is important is good storytelling. If they manage to tie in and utilize all the different choices we've made - fantastic, but it's not a deal-breaker for me if some of the stuff either wouldn't matter or has different consequences than what I've imagined. I like Dragon Age not just because I make choices - for me that's a bit like saying that one likes Dragon Age for romances. It's a cool thing I appreciate having, but ultimately I care about more than just those, and by that I mean the world they've created and the story they want to tell, with our PCs being parts of it instead of someone all of the universe has to circle around. |
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Sept 9, 2018 23:00:35 GMT
Or, they could finally let the dead rest. Is that too much to ask? If only we could kill (for real and permanently) Morrigan....
"Much have I fared, much have I found,
Much have I got of the gods:
Whence comes the sun to the smooth sky back,
When Fenrir has snatched it forth?"
Vafthruthnir spake:
"A daughter bright Alfrothul bears
Ere Fenrir snatches her forth;
Her mother's paths shall the maiden tread
When the gods to death have gone."- Poetic EddaRagnarök is on our doorstep. Now that the sun has been devoured by the great wolf, her daughter must take her place after the world is reborn. Suffice to say, I’ll be pretty surprised if Morrigan doesn’t survive the coming apocalypse. Kieran: "people fear the next age if it comes too soon" "Mother is the inheritor, she who awaits the next age" Gives me Sermon on the Mount/Beatitudes vibe and New World Order. |
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 23:02:43 GMT
I couldn't disagree more with this statement, and I doubt it's a statement based on anything solid either. As solid as, say, multiple comments of Gaider about player choice (or rather the illusion of choice) in various different interviews, for example? Besides, it's not hard to imagine why my reasoning is solid if you only think about branching narrative for a minute or two, especially in a multi-chapter series that continues story not long after the preceding one. At some point you just end up with a mess and an expensive one too. For me, what is important is good storytelling. If they manage to tie in and utilize all the different choices we've made - fantastic, but it's not a deal-breaker for me if some of the stuff either wouldn't matter or has different consequences than what I've imagined. I like Dragon Age not just because I make choices - for me that's a bit like saying that one likes Dragon Age for romances. It's a cool thing I appreciate having, but ultimately I care about more than just those, and by that I mean the world they've created and the story they want to tell, with our PCs being parts of it instead of someone all of the universe has to circle around. Gaider is an angry man with a chip on his shoulder who doesn't like to be told he's wrong. When people start questioning him he lashes out. If you read the weak justification he gave with Leliana's resurrection you would know his reasons for doing it were ... not strong. Basically "we do what we want" isn't a great opening argument for why it would lead to epic disaster. The decision's that were retconned were minor and could easily have been avoided. They weren't avoided because Bioware couldn't, they weren't avoided because Bioware didn't plan past origins + did what they felt like. Choice + consequence ties into "suspension of disbelief". A key part of storytelling is suspending the audience's disbelief, the disbelief is broken for different people by different things. It's great it's not a dealbreaker for you, but it's quite possibly for me. |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 23:08:41 GMT
Bioware needs to retcon so many decisions because it's poorly planned and they're flying by the seat of their pants. The decision of Anders joining the grey wardens didn't need to be retconned, except they didn't plan forward. Leliana potentially dying in Origins doesn't need to be retconned, except they had no idea they were going to use her so heavily in future games. The decision to soften Leliana in Origins likewise. Everything can very easily be avoided by a little planning, or just using alternate characters. Taking into consideration player choices doesn't mean it will lead to epic disaster ... it does take a little forward thinking though. And not doing everything on a whim. I've worked with stories that changed over time and I can only shake my head at it - no, it's never as easy as you think it is. Nevermind that with what I had to deal with wasn't an AAA game that has to take into consideration way more factors than just writing and illustrating the thing. Should we forget that DA2, for example, had really short development time? That many things have to be cut and moved during production? Nevermind taking into consideration all the branching choices you care so much about - and these things just pile on. Most game writers I've read or heard talked about how most of their job is not spent on conceptualizing and initial writing, but cutting, re-writing and editing to fit stuff into the game they don't' necessarily have all the control over. (btw. no - it's not as easy to just write an 'alternate' character in place of an old one. Why do you think people like writing fanfiction so much? Because half of the job is done for them. Writing established character is easier because... well, they're established already. You save resources thanks to that, nevermind all the dimension of continuity from past chapters and so on.) |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 9, 2018 23:10:44 GMT
I say Leliana won't make an appearance in the next DA game. She might get mentioned in dialogue and/or codex
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 23:14:39 GMT
Bioware needs to retcon so many decisions because it's poorly planned and they're flying by the seat of their pants. The decision of Anders joining the grey wardens didn't need to be retconned, except they didn't plan forward. Leliana potentially dying in Origins doesn't need to be retconned, except they had no idea they were going to use her so heavily in future games. The decision to soften Leliana in Origins likewise. Everything can very easily be avoided by a little planning, or just using alternate characters. Taking into consideration player choices doesn't mean it will lead to epic disaster ... it does take a little forward thinking though. And not doing everything on a whim. Should we forget that DA2, for example, had really short development time? That many things have to be cut and moved during production? Nevermind taking into consideration all the branching choices you care so much about - and these things just pile on. Most game writers I've read or heard talked about how most of their job is not spent on conceptualizing and initial writing, but cutting, re-writing and editing to fit stuff into the game they don't' necessarily have all the control over. (btw. no - it's not as easy to just write an 'alternate' character in place of an old one. Why do you think people like writing fanfiction so much? Because half of the job is done for them. Writing established character is easier because... well, they're established already. You save resources thanks to that, nevermind all the dimension of continuity from past chapters and so on.) Now we're starting to get into the real reasons. Lack of development time for DA2 was a big problem, yes. Not "it can't be done" but "development was screwed". Considering new characters, the character in Anders is pretty much completely different to Awakenings so he was, for all intents and purposes, a new character. A new character might not have had the appeal of an older character though. Also if you're a writer and you have trouble creating new characters, you might want to consider a different profession? Sorry, creating characters is a pretty important part of it? |
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2018 23:34:47 GMT
As solid as, say, multiple comments of Gaider about player choice (or rather the illusion of choice) in various different interviews, for example? Besides, it's not hard to imagine why my reasoning is solid if you only think about branching narrative for a minute or two, especially in a multi-chapter series that continues story not long after the preceding one. At some point you just end up with a mess and an expensive one too. For me, what is important is good storytelling. If they manage to tie in and utilize all the different choices we've made - fantastic, but it's not a deal-breaker for me if some of the stuff either wouldn't matter or has different consequences than what I've imagined. I like Dragon Age not just because I make choices - for me that's a bit like saying that one likes Dragon Age for romances. It's a cool thing I appreciate having, but ultimately I care about more than just those, and by that I mean the world they've created and the story they want to tell, with our PCs being parts of it instead of someone all of the universe has to circle around. Gaider is an angry man with a chip on his shoulder who doesn't like to be told he's wrong. When people start questioning him he lashes out. If you read the weak justification he gave with Leliana's resurrection you would know his reasons for doing it were ... not strong. Basically "we do what we want" isn't a great opening argument for why it would lead to epic disaster. So your rebuttal of somebody who clearly has experience writing such games is to just... use ad hominem on Gaider? ...What? You can say all you like about his 'weak justification' about Leliana's resurrection (btw. didn't Mike Laidlaw stated that he pushed for that? Plus, Mike Laidlaw also said similar things about player choice), but we aren't talking just about Leliana, but how things are in general. The interviews I've read with Gaider weren't just about that or existed before DAI. What do you mean by 'they did plan past Origins'? You mean at all, or do you mean in enough detail? Because the first is untrue, while the other is expected and normal for a game/story like that. They already told us multiple times that DA is like a D&D session - most DMs plan ahead to a point, but they have to be flexible as well and react to different turn of events, be it player preferences... or a tumultuous game production. Also - whether the decisions were minor and could be easily avoided is a topic for another thread. We are very much into personal opinion territory and I don't think we can expect for Bioware - or anyone else for that matter - to satisfy everyone's suspension-of-disbelief-meter. After all, nobody can guarantee that even if the game gives you choices and is heavy on consequences that you'd even like those. Didn't we have enough threads and comments about each individual choice, from Bioware games or else? |
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Post by river82 on Sept 9, 2018 23:49:25 GMT
Gaider is an angry man with a chip on his shoulder who doesn't like to be told he's wrong. When people start questioning him he lashes out. If you read the weak justification he gave with Leliana's resurrection you would know his reasons for doing it were ... not strong. Basically "we do what we want" isn't a great opening argument for why it would lead to epic disaster. So your rebuttal of somebody who clearly has experience writing such games is to just... use ad hominem on Gaider? ...What? You can say all you like about his 'weak justification' about Leliana's resurrection (btw. didn't Mike Laidlaw stated that he pushed for that? Plus, Mike Laidlaw also said similar things about player choice), but we aren't talking just about Leliana, but how things are in general. The interviews I've read about Gaider weren't just about that or existed before DAI. What do you mean by 'they did plan past Origins'? You mean at all, or do you mean in enough detail? Because the first is untrue, while the other is expected and normal for a game/story like that. They already told us multiple times that DA is like a D&D session - most DMs plan ahead to a point, but they have to be flexible as well and react to different turn of events, be it player preferences... or a tumultuous game production. Also - whether the decisions were minor and could be easily avoided is a topic for another thread. We are very much into personal opinion territory and I don't think we can expect for Bioware - or anyone else for that matter - to satisfy everyone's suspension-of-disbelief-meter. After all, nobody can guarantee that even if the game gives you choices and is heavy on consequences that you'd even like those. Didn't we have enough threads and comments about each individual choice, from Bioware games or else? My rebuttal is stating Gaider's argument is essentially "player choice is an illusion, we do what we want" and that it isn't an argument for epic disaster. I gave a warning not to take the advice of Gaider too seriously due to his inability to take criticism and his propensity to lash out in defense whenever faced with it. Basically avoid the advice of anyone who doesn't take critique well. But you're free to believe whatever you want. If you want to discuss a piece Gaider said specifically then quote it, and I'll read it when I get home. Otherwise a "Gaider said otherwise" is vague and non-descriptive. So expect an answer that is also vague and non-descriptive. Mike Laidlaw may have pushed for it, Gaider defended it. And whether Laidlaw pushed for it or otherwise makes no difference ... except to solidify the perception that Laidlaw oversaw an inconsistent Dragon Age and it's good he's gone. There has been zero consistency in the Dragon Age series. If they planned ahead from Origins, they did a poor job of it. I keep harping on about how little consistency there is in Dragon Age compared to Mass Effect, a series which did, DID, carry player choices game to game. Including character deaths, so if a character died in a previous game they won't appear in a later one. ME did this well, DA does this poorly. I don't know how you can say player choices lead to epic disaster when a series from the same company shows otherwise *shrugs*. Whether the decisions are minor and could be avoided directly relates to your epic disaster argument. If the decisions could be easily avoided, then doing so would obviously not lead to an epic disaster. We've been in personal opinion territory the entire time. Some people didn't like Leliana resurrected, some people didn't mind it. The entire concept of Suspension of Disbelief is partly embedded in the realm of "people react differently". I pretty much posted it to say "it's about personal opinions" so I obviously agree with you here. You don't mind, I hate it, and that's based on nothing more than our preferences. |
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