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Post by rras1994 on Sept 13, 2018 20:21:50 GMT
Are you sure of that amount? NPD which is usually quite good at this data said Mass Effect 3 sold 1.3 million physical copies in it's debut month which was double what Mass Effect 2 in it's opening month and it's not as if digital was that big back in 2010 - I also wouldn't trust that 7 million figure for both ME1 and ME2 as it comes from VGchartz and their figures don't tend to be accurate. That was the numbers I remember seeing. This old report by MCV was where I got it at the time. Since the numbers come from EA, we can check financial records from conference calls during the quarter it was released, but it mentions Mass Effect only once as a "blockbuster" for the quarter. Weird, and that report mentions it as "internal estimates" and that it hadn't even came out yet in the UK. It's possible I suppose, video game sales can be very front loaded but it still seems very high to me. The number guesing is never an exact science anyway, Mass E ffect 2 did sell much more than 1, but Mass Effect 3 sold more than both and brought in alot of new players. DAI dif the same. I've always found it weird that people mark those games as a downfall of BioWare, yet by the numbers we have they brought in the biggest amount of new customers into BioWare.
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Post by helios969 on Sept 13, 2018 20:28:52 GMT
Lack of leadership with a clear vision of what they want to be and how to properly prioritize resources to achieve the end goal combine with a younger generation of employees trying to impose their ideas and values whether it's a good idea or not. Anthem is really going to tell me whether they have any clever storytelling left...or even if that's what they want to be anymore. They've cut away all the extras to focus on gameplay and story...they really need to deliver on the latter or I think there's little reason to hope for a high quality experience in the next DA/ME.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 13, 2018 20:44:04 GMT
Mass Effect combat got better with every installment.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 13, 2018 20:53:07 GMT
I'm not sure if that's a criticism of BioWare or of the fanbase... Bioware, mainly.
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Post by samhain444 on Sept 13, 2018 20:58:26 GMT
Mass Effect combat got better with every installment. I agree
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Post by Iakus on Sept 13, 2018 21:09:53 GMT
Mass Effect combat got better with every installment. Combat isn't everything. For some of us, it isn't even the primary thing.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 13, 2018 22:15:18 GMT
It's problems with middle management vs talent and ideas. Simple as that really. They are lasting this long though because they are doing something right of course. We also tend to forget that a decade ago there was a chance they would not even be here if it weren't for the EA buyout of VG Holding Corp, which was beginning to falter in 2007. Sounds like the discussion between Shepard and the Catalyst. "I think we'd like to keep our own form." "No, you can't." Shepard is pretty clear that becoming a Reaper (or a slave, per the conversation with Saren) is NOT a level of existence s/he believes the MW races would want for ourselves.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 13, 2018 22:24:26 GMT
Mass Effect combat got better with every installment. Combat isn't everything. For some of us, it isn't even the primary thing. Story, which is probably why I like ME1 the most. More dialogue choice, more armor choice (which also has limitations based on race, class or level), more weapon choice, the necessity of actually having to put some thought into what talents will be most useful. For example, I need to have people strong in electronics and decryption to open certain safes and lock boxes. Some you just can't get into. No mini-game to conquer it. Comments from squadmates: "We just have to trust the ambassador." "No we don't, sir." This was some real RPG stuff that away in later games. Made the story more interesting to me
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Post by river82 on Sept 13, 2018 23:26:16 GMT
Bioware used to stand for strategic combat, adventure, a good and epic story.
These days Bioware stands for epic action combat, exploration, romance/character interaction.
Completely different and it makes me sad. "Bioware isn't the same company" - Knowles
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 14, 2018 5:07:10 GMT
Mass Effect combat got better with every installment. Except for Andromeda.
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Post by Shinobu on Sept 14, 2018 5:39:35 GMT
I love Bioware. I don't always love their games, but so far I feel I have gotten my money's worth and am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. To me they are similar to Pixar. Some of their products are true masterpieces like Finding Nemo (DAO), others are at the level of The Good Dinosaur or Cars 2 (DA2, my first and last preorder).
The ending of the OT really soured the fanbase on gaming journalism and Bioware. I doubt most reviewers got to the end of the game by the time the presses figuratively rolled, so their rosy reviews were completely justified if one never finished the game. While I went through a grieving process at the end of ME3 (enough to start a protest of sorts) I... eventually... got over it. I think much of the fanbase felt like their girl/boyfriend had cheated on/dumped them and they are still bitter and vengeful in a way that only obsessive geeks can be. In response, the gaming journalists were much more cautious in praising Andromeda, which was mostly justified as Andromeda is about Finding Dory-level for me (good, and fairly nostalgic, but somewhat lacking). It still doesn't keep me from wanting MEA2, though.
One thing that strikes me when I look at all of the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games is that I am not sure Bioware knew what the secret sauce that makes their games so delectable IS. "People loved Alistair, let's trot him out every game to say swooping is bad!" "People loved the Citadel DLC, let's make an entire game with that tone!" "People loved ME3MP, let's put multiplayer in everything!" I feel that they tried to recreate past successes without really delving into what made them successes to begin with. On the last day of the old BSN I made a rather pretentious post on the subject, the upshot of which was: No, we don't love Alistair, we love his relationship with the Warden. No, we don't love the Citadel DLC because it was fun and goofy, we loved it because it allowed us to say goodbye to characters we had spent 3 GAMES getting to know. That cameraderie has to be earned. We didn't love multiplayer, we loved being able to put together a rag-tag squad and finally beat the Reapers (at least temporarily).
Bioware's new mission statement makes me hopeful they are finally conscious of what makes a Bioware game a Bioware game: lore and deep relationships. Whether they can translate this understanding to Anthem, where at least some of the relationships are going to be with other real people (a fraught proposition) remains to be seen. I'm still on the fence as far as Anthem is concerned, but I'm not expecting it to ruin my childhood or anything. I'm very glad to hear rumblings about future Dragon Age and (Maker willing!) Mass Effect projects. I hope story and relationships take precedence over empty open maps and multiplayer (I love ME3MP to the tune of >11k matches, but didn't care for DAMP or MEAMP at all).
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Post by isaidlunch on Sept 14, 2018 8:54:36 GMT
Open world has killed my interest in the genre, Bioware are just the worst offenders. There have been times where I've thought about replaying DAI/MEA, started up a new playthrough, and then I get to the Hinterlands or Eos and I remember how much suffering awaits me. I'm praying they learn their lesson in DA4 because I'm not sure if I can force myself through yet another open world slog. I'd rather replay DAO for the millionth time.
Bethesda and CDPR games are hardly better though. Always makes me laugh when people act like TW3 and its 64 smuggler caches are the pinnacle of game design.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 14, 2018 14:43:52 GMT
We can only speculate on BioWare's internal state as a workplace- though I'm sure we've all heard stories.
Otherwise, going forward, all I can say is they need a solid vision. Mass Effect, even at the height of its power had a little too much of "throw stuff at wall, see what sticks". It only worked up to a point, and then they wrote themselves into a corner, where they had a (likely drug/stress-induced) vision that was entirely tacked-on and wtf to try and end it. The number of false starts Andromeda experienced isn't a vision, it's following (and dropping) fads as someone above said. Does Anthem have a vision? We won't know until it hits. It's easy to claim "Destiny clone", but it could still surprise us.
But yeah, knowing fuck all about anything behind the scenes, that's my commentary. Have a vision. Make your game about something, make it say something. And not some bullshit agenda of the day crap either. But rather, something that sparks the imagination of the audience and draws them in to engage. Something with a sense of wonder, and a clear care in every aspect of its communication. Something serious, that can also take the piss out of itself at times. Everything else, what you innovate, what features you want to put in, should all be in service of this central vision.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 15, 2018 15:00:04 GMT
What is an agenda now and days? I’ve seen that thrown out without any meaning.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 15, 2018 17:04:59 GMT
I'm actually optimistic for two reasons. First, Anthem on a technical and production level is looking far more polished than ME:A. It may even be that ME:A got the 'B' team while Anthem got the studio's real talent. Secondly, DA:I was in part a return to form - far better than DA2 if reviews are correct. And the next DA has been in production a long time, which shows how patient EA is being here. So as I see it, the studio has two major projects coming up to redeem themselves.
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Post by malgus on Sept 15, 2018 17:57:12 GMT
One of the doctors said in an interview that without the buying BioWare might not have survived the market crash. Especially if the reports are true Jade Empire was not a financial success, critics might have liked it unfortunately it didn't find an audience. Not only that, but remember Mass Effect 1 also had decent sales but was not a big hit until the 2nd game which was 7 million units worldwide. The trilogy is estimated to be about 14 million units sold, and I believe 4 or 5 million are under Mass Effect 3. So that leaves around 2 million for the first game, if I recall, maybe a bit more that's an estimate, I think it made money but kind of like Andromeda, not that much. One of the problem with many fans of BW games is that they want to think that the games they liked in the past (DA and ME) worked a lot in which is far from being that simple. I remember people on french forum claiming that mass effect is a "poule aux oeufs d'or" (translation : a chicken that lay golden eggs) and I try to explain that to them. Mass effect was never a big seller, 6 millions for Mass effect 3 is the biggest it did for an individual game did and while it's not bad, it's NOTHING compares to the juggernault of destiny, COD, Fallout, overwatch etc. People want to think that because they are passionate about these games, they were comemercially sucessfull and live in their own little worlds where the franchise they like was loved and bought by the majority. Like ME 3 made 200 millions, which is not bad until you take into account the 80 million it cost in total (it includes the markteing but not the future costs, just the main game and not the dlc (MP or SP)). And that 200 million is including sales, dlc, microtransactions everything into it. It looks big for a consumer but for a publisher like EA, it's NOTHING. They make 4 or 5 billion a fucking year, they can easily have no Mass effect and be totally fine when the year finishes. People tend to overestimate the importance of Mass effect, it is important to US to the fanbase but we are from being that important in terms of money. The only reason Bioware always see people pushing for a remake of the old trilogy is the Fans are very active but far from being that numerous as we would like to believe.
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Post by hawkster94 on Sept 15, 2018 19:23:48 GMT
To be honestly frank, I think some BW fans put too much pedestral to certain old games like ME1.
You'd think with the hyperbole around the game that it would be the greatest thing of all time since sliced bread.
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Post by burnsidhe on Sept 15, 2018 20:21:53 GMT
A lot of people are saying 'Oh, Mass Effect Andromeda wasn't that bad.' And it's true, it wasn't that bad. If the game had only taken two or two and a half years to develop, it would be... acceptable. Barely.
But it didn't take two and a half years to develop. It took five. Five years. Bioware took five years to make ME:A and the level of polish and storytelling was completely unacceptable for a game that was five years in the making. The 'new engine' argument is complete bullshit when it comes to elements of the game that don't depend on the engine, aka the storytelling and dialog and characterization.
That is why Andromeda is a black mark on Bioware's record.
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Post by malgus on Sept 16, 2018 0:07:49 GMT
To be honestly frank, I think some BW fans put too much pedestral to certain old games like ME1. You'd think with the hyperbole around the game that it would be the greatest thing of all time since sliced bread. Indeed, when people tell me that there was no bad fetch quest in previous Mass effect and it's one of the reason why MEA is bad compare to them. I always wonder : did we play the same Mass effect franchise? Because I remember the recycled envinronments in ME 1, the saelon ship was build the exact same way as the one with the biotics extremist, and the same where a woman kill all of the crew to save her vegetative husband because they were going to unplug him. Same things with the planet base, recylced as hell. When you visit the one where some biotics created a cult, it's the same architecture as the one that has red sand dealers, or the outpost where you find Nassana's sister. Yes the recycling did not started with dragon age 2, it was there since 2007 before EA take in and yes it was made by the same BW people have so much nostalgia for. And I will avoid elaborating about the scan we have to do of the keepers or find 50 turian emblems, on more than 20 planets, or pretty much tons of quest explaining your actions in textboxes instead of showing it to you... And somehow, ME 2 manage to be even worst in terms of story for the N7 quests, because yeah I did not forgot the quest where the goal is just to find battery for a mechs so he can destroy walls and you can advance. Or the one where you have to rescue a quarian, or the one where the point is simply to kill all blue sun members and press a button. those quest had No dialogues, bare minimum cutscenes (and no a batarian smoking his cigar and walking back it's base when he sees our shuttle is not enough) and your reward in terms of story is a textbox explaining to you why it the mission was sucess... In fact, most of the time, the moment you left a main planet (like the citadel, noveria, feros, illium, omega etc.) and were not doing a companinon quest you were in for a boring time in side activites. Now I am not saying that MEA does not have shit side quest (like scanning minerals or bodies) it sure has them, but the mass effect pretty much had a history of doing such things yet some people seems to have forgotten that. Actually if BW were to make a remaster of the previous trilogy, I think some people would have a hell of an awakening when they see the first Mass effect again with updated graphics. And realise all the flaws that game had when nostalgia is not as present on a newer version. When the game came out, while most gamers praised the main storyline and presentation, the side quest were criticized harshly and rightly so. But with times it appear people just don't remember them.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 16, 2018 1:32:19 GMT
KOTOR came out less than 15 years ago...are actually saying the last "Great" BioWare game that came out was "Neverwinter Nights"? KotOR was 2003. That's 15 years ago. And yes, in order to find great gameS, plural, that's how far back you need to go. DAO - 9 years ago - was great, but since KotOR that's it. As I see it, BioWare has been building on the wrong foundation for well over a decade. They've been trying to tell a better story, when they should have been trying to offer better roleplaying opportunities. From my discussions with the devs themselves, it seems the best pro-roleplaying features they've included have been incidental or unintended. And yes, I do count NWN as one of their vert best games. Top 3, I'd say. I do think MEA is the best Mass Effect game, but that's an extremely low bar.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2018 1:50:21 GMT
im not optimistic for DA:4.
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Post by malgus on Sept 16, 2018 1:51:22 GMT
Laughing man
But even for 2007 the side quest were still shit, people were criticizing them harshly expecially compared to what was done before, kotor did way better side quest on an older generation of consoles 4 years before, oblivion came in 2006 and had better side quest, the time excuse can only a extend to a certain degree because I founded them boring as fuck even in 2007. Now yeah they were criticized at the time of their release, I did not see someone on the forums defending the recycled envinronments of ME 1 or the textboxes of ME 2. My point was just that NOW people seems to have forgotten those flaws when they claim that these particular aspects were better done before.
Now I am not saying that MEA is stronger than ME 1 or ME 2 on ALL ASPECTS, in terms of main quest I prefer the first ME and third ME rather than MEA. What I am saying is IF the side quest were the elements that makes a mass effect game good or bad, then I don't see which mass effect were great because all of them had their fair share of good ones and bad ones.
My point is not to say that MEA is the same as all the previous mass effect, it's the fact that people had argue that side activites were better done before like they have forgotten how awful the N7 mission were in ME 2, or the recycled envinronments of ME 1 and it's fetch quest. IF you take on every aspects and compare every positive to every negative, than yeah MEA might be less good than previous ME but that was not my point.
If the people told me that the main quest was better in older ME and that is the reason why they don't like MEA, I would have understood even if there is a chance I would disagree. But the one who claims that the filler quests of previous ME were great and that is the reason MEA is bad to them, that is something completely different.
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 16, 2018 1:59:43 GMT
KOTOR came out less than 15 years ago...are actually saying the last "Great" BioWare game that came out was "Neverwinter Nights"? KotOR was 2003. That's 15 years ago. And yes, in order to find great gameS, plural, that's how far back you need to go. DAO - 9 years ago - was great, but since KotOR that's it. As I see it, BioWare has been building on the wrong foundation for well over a decade. They've been trying to tell a better story, when they should have been trying to offer better roleplaying opportunities. From my discussions with the devs themselves, it seems the best pro-roleplaying features they've included have been incidental or unintended. And yes, I do count NWN as one of their vert best games. Top 3, I'd say. I do think MEA is the best Mass Effect game, but that's an extremely low bar.
I am questioning the accuracy of your handle. We are much in agreement here.
I think Bioware has fallen into the trap of copying others rather than playing to their strengths.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 16, 2018 3:17:43 GMT
Bioware's whole thing is the story, the characters, relationships. My first impulse was to agree that's Bioware's thing now, but that it didn't used to be. But the more I think about it, the more I think modern BioWare is all story all the time. They can't really do relationships because they don't know the protagonist well enough. They can't. The only way they'd know enough about the protagonist's moment-to-moment state of mind would be if they controlled it and went full visual novel. And that's an interesting comparison, because the first JRPGs were derived from visual novels. They took barely interactive stories and added what today people might call "RPG elements", but no real roleplaying. I mention this because there was a time when BioWare was at the forefront of western CRPGs, which were very distinct from JRPGs. And that's the BioWare that was good. JRPGs were always terrible roleplaying games. The more BioWare's games resemble JRPGs, the less roleplaying they allow. Pre-defined characters and relationships can only ever lead to non-interactive content.
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river82
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river82
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Post by river82 on Sept 16, 2018 3:36:05 GMT
Bioware's whole thing is the story, the characters, relationships. My first impulse was to agree that's Bioware's thing now, but that it didn't used to be. But the more I think about it, the more I think modern BioWare is all story all the time. They can't really do relationships because they don't know the protagonist well enough. They can't. The only way they'd know enough about the protagonist's moment-to-moment state of mind would be if they controlled it and went full visual novel. And that's an interesting comparison, because the first JRPGs were derived from visual novels. They took barely interactive stories and added what today people might call "RPG elements", but no real roleplaying. I mention this because there was a time when BioWare was at the forefront of western CRPGs, which were very distinct from JRPGs. And that's the BioWare that was good. JRPGs were always terrible roleplaying games. The more BioWare's games resemble JRPGs, the less roleplaying they allow. Pre-defined characters and relationships can only ever lead to non-interactive content. It was only about a decade ago that Bioware was openly mocking JRPGs for not having choices and not being able to create your character. Oh how the mighty is falling.
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