bshep
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Sept 16, 2018 11:58:10 GMT
But even for 2007 the side quest were still shit, people were criticizing them harshly expecially compared to what was done before, kotor did way better side quest on an older generation of consoles 4 years before, oblivion came in 2006 and had better side quest, the time excuse can only a extend to a certain degree because I founded them boring as fuck even in 2007. Now yeah they were criticized at the time of their release, I did not see someone on the forums defending the recycled envinronments of ME 1 or the textboxes of ME 2. My point was just that NOW people seems to have forgotten those flaws when they claim that these particular aspects were better done before. Now I am not saying that MEA is stronger than ME 1 or ME 2 on ALL ASPECTS, in terms of main quest I prefer the first ME and third ME rather than MEA. What I am saying is IF the side quest were the elements that makes a mass effect game good or bad, then I don't see which mass effect were great because all of them had their fair share of good ones and bad ones. My point is not to say that MEA is the same as the previous mass effect, it's the fact that people had argue that side activites were better done before like they have forgotten how awful the N7 mission were in ME 2, or the recycled envinronments of ME 1 and it's fetch quest. IF you take on every aspects and compare every positive to every negative, than yeah MEA might be less good than previous ME but that was not my point. If the people told me that the main quest was better in older ME and that is the reason why they don't like MEA, I would have understood even if there is a chance I would disagree. But the one who claims that the filler quests of previous ME were great and that is the reason MEA is bad to them, that is something completely different. Because it is always the same pattern of hating the current game while saying praises for the previous ones like they were perfect. You can bet the same people doing this now will start praising DAI and MEA when the next games are announced and released.
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Post by warden on Sept 16, 2018 21:41:41 GMT
To be honest, I think it's really a strange situation, we are only left with wild speculation.
Anyway, from the veteran devs, aside from Hudson, who else remains in the company right now?
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Post by malgus on Sept 16, 2018 22:22:20 GMT
To be honest, I think it's really a strange situation, we are only left with wild speculation. Anyway, from the veteran devs, aside from Hudson, who else remains in the company right now? Patrick Weekes, Mary Kirby, Michael Gamble, Karin Weekes, Mark Darrah just to name a few.
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Post by Sifr on Sept 17, 2018 7:43:10 GMT
But it didn't take two and a half years to develop. It took five. Five years. Bioware took five years to make ME:A and the level of polish and storytelling was completely unacceptable for a game that was five years in the making. I feel that it must be pointed out that it was in development for five years.
This is not the same as being worked on for five years.
From what the developers have said, it was a rushed production and the main game was only built over the course of 18 months... with the last six months prior to launch being largely dedicated to bug-fixing, so that the game could be considered even remotely playable.
(Which if you remember the buggy state of the game at launch, makes you question how bad it was before that?)
It's unclear when production began, but if I had to hazard a guess I'd say sometime in 2014? The teaser from E3 2014 was mostly concept art and the only footage shown was of a Krogan (from an early Alpha build of Drack's loyalty mission, as more of this footage was leaked in 2016). It definitely was being worked on in 2015, was the trailer for E3 for that year showed off a ton of Eos and gave us our first glimpse of the Remnant.
Does having a short, rushed and extremely troubled production change anything or excuse the flaws of Andromeda? Maybe, maybe not... depends how you feel about how Bioware/EA handled (or mishanded) the entire project, especially after the disaster with ME3.
Regardless, I feel that if we are going to criticise the game or the developers, it shouldn't be to blame them for something that was never true to begin with. By all means, the fandom has the right to feel disappointed with Andromeda, but we shouldn't accuse the devs of squandering over three times longer than they actually spent working on it.
(Hope this didn't sound like a rebuke directed at you, it was only meant to address and try to dispel the "five year" myth)
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 17, 2018 8:54:09 GMT
Combat isn't everything. For some of us, it isn't even the primary thing. Story, which is probably why I like ME1 the most. More dialogue choice, more armor choice (which also has limitations based on race, class or level), more weapon choice, the necessity of actually having to put some thought into what talents will be most useful. For example, I need to have people strong in electronics and decryption to open certain safes and lock boxes. Some you just can't get into. No mini-game to conquer it. Comments from squadmates: "We just have to trust the ambassador." "No we don't, sir." This was some real RPG stuff that away in later games. Made the story more interesting to me I like both. Gameplay and story. Ideally they go into one game. I also like to have my "own character" - role play in a limited computerized way. But I am fine with the way Mass Effect went and I don't miss story so much. It's often good enough to carry the game.
On the other hand: I never saw the appeal of Telltale Games. Trudging through a QTE fest to saviour a story is not my idea of playing a game. Then again, I play a lot of sims. Construction, city, flightsim - whatever. And of these I prefer those that are sandboxy, filled with gameplay mechanics to experiment with and little people that develop and become skilled over time.
Take Rimworld for example. When I witness an epic death of a grizzled veteran, I don't reload. They get entombed in a snazzy funeral. Games like that tell their own story - and the more varied the gameplay and experience - th more likely I am to come up with narrations of my own.
The game that impressed me lately with story - or rather: narration - was the Witcher 3. The main story I didn't care so much about, but it was the little Witcher contracts that I found interesting to explore. Their open world was bogged by trees. Trees everywhere - hard to get a lookout point, especially in the starting places. Their map geology needs some more work. The narrative elements carried the game.
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Post by warden on Sept 17, 2018 14:49:00 GMT
To be honest, I think it's really a strange situation, we are only left with wild speculation. Anyway, from the veteran devs, aside from Hudson, who else remains in the company right now? Patrick Weekes, Mary Kirby, Michael Gamble, Karin Weekes, Mark Darrah just to name a few. I see. Nothing special then, thanks for the info.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 17, 2018 16:49:26 GMT
Only decades worth of quality characters and gameplay...
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Sept 17, 2018 18:30:20 GMT
Bioware's definitely lost their touch. It happens to a lot of artists, and to athletes as well. In the end, it's something that they can recover from and turn around. I'm not a fan of their recent releases, and I care very little about Anthem, but is eminently possible that the next DA or ME title (or Anthem itself) is a triumph that puts them back in form. They really ought to focus on their specialty however: simple stories driven by strong characters who we as players can relate to. And not open-world games.
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by bshep on Sept 17, 2018 19:02:09 GMT
The state of this thread...
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Post by hawkster94 on Sept 17, 2018 19:44:22 GMT
So you're saying its a dick-measuring contests?
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 17, 2018 19:44:24 GMT
Of course, this does mean that there's very little point in being sentimental about Bioware as a brand name. There was a time when "BioWare RPG" was a useful label, and I really liked those RPGs. That BioWare no longer makes them (though DAO absolutely qualified) doesn't make me like RPGs of that style any less.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 13:36:55 GMT
Only decades worth of quality characters and gameplay... Or until they shut down the servers.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 18, 2018 14:08:00 GMT
Or until they shut down the servers. Which BioWare games can you no longer play, exactly?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 14:36:45 GMT
Or until they shut down the servers. Which BioWare games can you no longer play, exactly? Are we being literal or figurative here?
But let me answer your question with a question: how many NWN persistent world servers does Bioware currently support?
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 18, 2018 14:43:44 GMT
But let me answer your question with a question: how many NWN persistent world servers does Bioware currently support? I've no idea. NWN was from 15 years ago or more? Do people still play that?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 14:45:42 GMT
But let me answer your question with a question: how many NWN persistent world servers does Bioware currently support? I've no idea. NWN was from 15 years ago or more? Do people still play that?
2034: "Anthem was from 15 years ago. Do people still play that?"
But yes, people still play NWN (I did a run quite recently, in fact, and have loaded several mods onto it)
I also still play BG, and am working through another run of BG2 in fact.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 18, 2018 14:51:00 GMT
But yes, people still play NWN (I did a run quite recently, in fact, and have loaded several mods onto it) I also still play BG, and am working through another run of BG2 in fact. Very good, you can play both games. And your point was?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 14:57:54 GMT
But yes, people still play NWN (I did a run quite recently, in fact, and have loaded several mods onto it) I also still play BG, and am working through another run of BG2 in fact. Very good, you can play both games. And your point was? They're not dependent on company-controlled servers to run.
Can you say the same for Anthem?
Heck can you say the same for the Bioware games with the always online DRM when they will no longer be able to verify your games?
What does "decades worth of quality characters and gameplay" mean when it all goes away when the lights turn off?
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 18, 2018 15:58:35 GMT
They're not dependent on company-controlled servers to run.
Can you say the same for Anthem?
Heck can you say the same for the Bioware games with the always online DRM when they will no longer be able to verify your games?
What does "decades worth of quality characters and gameplay" mean when it all goes away when the lights turn off? Seems like a non-concern to me. If people are still playing, there will be a reason to keep it running. If hardly anyone plays then it will have had its time. I'm surprised you're so worried about Anthem's servers being kept online so long into the future. I didn't think it was a game you were particularly interested in.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 16:12:22 GMT
They're not dependent on company-controlled servers to run.
Can you say the same for Anthem?
Heck can you say the same for the Bioware games with the always online DRM when they will no longer be able to verify your games?
What does "decades worth of quality characters and gameplay" mean when it all goes away when the lights turn off? Seems like a non-concern to me. If people are still playing, there will be a reason to keep it running. If hardly anyone plays then it will have had its time. I'm surprised you're so worried about Anthem's servers being kept online so long into the future. I didn't think it was a game you were particularly interested in. I've been concerned since DA2 and ME3 instituted always online DRM and you have to verify your game is legit every time you start it up.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 18, 2018 16:15:00 GMT
If hardly anyone plays then it will have had its time. I disagree with this. Why must games be limited time, regardless of how many years that measures? This is a very shitty modern attitude EA pushes. No other media is thus subject to the whims of its creators- you can't just pull the servers for a movie, show or book. Why should games be any different? They are part of culture and deserve to be as accessible as anything else.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 16:16:14 GMT
If hardly anyone plays then it will have had its time. I disagree with this. Why must games be limited time, regardless of how many years that measures? This is a very shitty modern attitude EA pushes. No other media is thus subject to the whims of its creators- you can't just pull the servers for a movie, show or book. Why should games be any different? They are part of culture and deserve to be as accessible as anything else. Indeed. Should I let Amazon delete books from my Kindle because "no one reads this anymore"?
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 18, 2018 16:35:42 GMT
Longevity of art is variable. A paper book is going to last a lifetime. A theatre or musical performance is one-time-only, at least in that instance, though another performance can be repeated song as the artist chooses. An online game relies upon the servers continuing online. I would expect such a period of time to be many years, but to expect some moral claim over playing an archaic game after 99% of people have moved on seems unreasonable to me. Thankfully, as this hasn't happened to a BioWare game to my knowledge, we're getting needlessly outraged about hypotheticals.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 18, 2018 16:54:37 GMT
Longevity of art is variable. A paper book is going to last a lifetime. A theatre or musical performance is one-time-only, at least in that instance, though another performance can be repeated song as the artist chooses. An online game relies upon the servers continuing online. I would expect such a period of time to be many years, but to expect some moral claim over playing an archaic game after 99% of people have moved on seems unreasonable to me. Thankfully, as this hasn't happened to a BioWare game to my knowledge, we're getting needlessly outraged about hypotheticals. It really isn't. Live performances are the exception not the rule. The only component of video games that relates to the spontaneity and timeliness of live performances are individual multiplayer matches. Shutting a game down forever isn't the same as missing a show. It's the same as burning all copies of the play or song sheet. Games that actually require servers as an integral function of the game such as MMOs may indeed have a limited lifespan by their nature (though emulation makes that arguable). But games tied to servers only by DRM? That's crap. Even in the case of multiplayer only titles, companies used to release the source code once support ended, allowing users to make their own master servers. A game may have a lifespan as a product for a company, but there is no reason it must die as media/art for the players. This isn't a BioWare specific issue. It's a point about all games. Unfortunately EA is a leading proponent of game extinction, thus making it very likely future BioWare games will be affected, unless radical opposition to this philosophy can be mustered.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 18, 2018 17:08:37 GMT
Given the popularity of the vanilla Wow servers I hope some devs/publishers are given the green light to make their old games usable. Either opening access for ppl to make their own servers, removing drm or simply deliberately looking the other way...it'll gain them some brownie points from the community. Of course if it's popular they'll want a slice of the pie.
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