Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,915 Likes: 7,479
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 18, 2018 17:44:05 GMT
I've been concerned since DA2 and ME3 instituted always online DRM and you have to verify your game is legit every time you start it up. It was actually DAO (PC, disk version) that started the online authentication trend. It installed, without notifying the user in any way, an "EA Authentication Service" on your PC and checked your copy every time you started the game. I was surprised about the bitching about DA2's DRM when DAO had already done it years before without much of a reaction. Or maybe people just didn't notice. I recall having to manually patch SecuROM after installing ME1 (also PC disk version) because that piece of crap checked every .exe on my PC, not just the game. I got seemingly unrelated blue screens for a week until I figured that one out. Shitty DRM has been a part of BioWare packages for quite some time now. |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2018 18:15:09 GMT
I've been concerned since DA2 and ME3 instituted always online DRM and you have to verify your game is legit every time you start it up. It was actually DAO (PC, disk version) that started the online authentication trend. It installed, without notifying the user in any way, an "EA Authentication Service" on your PC and checked your copy every time you started the game. I was surprised about the bitching about DA2's DRM when DAO had already done it years before without much of a reaction. Or maybe people just didn't notice. I recall having to manually patch SecuROM after installing ME1 (also PC disk version) because that piece of crap checked every .exe on my PC, not just the game. I got seemingly unrelated blue screens for a week until I figured that one out. Shitty DRM has been a part of BioWare packages for quite some time now. I was actually not on the forums when DAO was released. But Mass Effect's SecuROM was my first Angry Letter to EA. (sadly, not my last) |
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 18, 2018 19:33:03 GMT
It was actually DAO (PC, disk version) that started the online authentication trend. It installed, without notifying the user in any way, an "EA Authentication Service" on your PC and checked your copy every time you started the game. I was surprised about the bitching about DA2's DRM when DAO had already done it years before without much of a reaction. Or maybe people just didn't notice. I recall having to manually patch SecuROM after installing ME1 (also PC disk version) because that piece of crap checked every .exe on my PC, not just the game. I got seemingly unrelated blue screens for a week until I figured that one out. Shitty DRM has been a part of BioWare packages for quite some time now. I was actually not on the forums when DAO was released. But Mass Effect's SecuROM was my first Angry Letter to EA. (sadly, not my last) I’ve only ever written one angry letter to bioware and that was about me3. |
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Post by biggydx on Sept 18, 2018 21:47:58 GMT
From the various official Bioware replies to the article claiming that future DA / ME titles will be "influenced" by the Anthem service model, the main thing I got was that they were trying very hard not to say anything clear on the subject. Note: He's not denying that the "live-service" model will likely be used, he's just trying to muddy the water by pretending like there's no difference between a (likely) always-online "game as a service" to DLC's and expansions of the past. Note the words "what a Dragon Age should be", this is very conveniently vague and open to interpretation. Of course, there's also the question of how the approach of "our world, my story" will influence a game like Dragon Age. My impression is that they want to do both free bite-sized story DLC's, as well as paid DLC's that periodically release. How that type of structure is supported is the real question in my mind. Will EA/BioWare have DLC's that make up the cost of free DLC's, or will they turn to MTX to sustain the free dlc model (which seems more likely)? Live service in and of itself isn't an issue, more than it is how it's executed and supported. Even The Witcher 3 had live service elements initially during release. |
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Post by biggydx on Sept 18, 2018 21:49:33 GMT
From the various official Bioware replies to the article claiming that future DA / ME titles will be "influenced" by the Anthem service model, the main thing I got was that they were trying very hard not to say anything clear on the subject. Note: He's not denying that the "live-service" model will likely be used, he's just trying to muddy the water by pretending like there's no difference between a (likely) always-online "game as a service" to DLC's and expansions of the past. Note the words "what a Dragon Age should be", this is very conveniently vague and open to interpretation. Of course, there's also the question of how the approach of "our world, my story" will influence a game like Dragon Age. My impression is that they want to do both free bite-sized story DLC's, as well as paid DLC's that periodically release. How that type of structure is supported is the real question in my mind. Will EA/BioWare have DLC's that make up the cost of free DLC's, or will they turn to MTX to sustain the free dlc model (which seems more likely)? Live service in and of itself isn't an issue, more than it is how it's executed and supported. Even The Witcher 3 had live service elements initially during release. Also, I believe Casey Hudson already said previously that they weren't turning DA into an Anthem-like game |
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Post by biggydx on Sept 19, 2018 0:12:25 GMT
Live service in and of itself isn't an issue, more than it is how it's executed and supported. Even The Witcher 3 had live service elements initially during release. TW3 didn't have "live service". It had free DLCs and in addition it had two massive expansions. The way I understand the term "live service", it tends to describe some or all of the following: 1. Always online / MMO games that release content periodically, often while pushing MTX. 2. A subscription service, whereby you pay money in advance / each month for access to content, often without knowing in advance what the content is or what is the level of quality. If what they intended was merely to release a bunch of DLCs, there would have been no need to create a fancy new term for it. I don't believe point 1 or 2 applies here, since Monster Hunter World offered several live events to players free of charge, with no mtx; as well the game being able to be played offline. Will there be games and publishers/developers who may choose to implement what you mentioned? Yes. That's just me being honest with you. It really all depends on the type of game being made, as well as whether the dev/publisher needs (or wants) the revenue. Edit: I don't know how much stock you put into Wikipedia sourcing, but here's an article related to Games as a Service (GaaS). Generally it's done to increase revenue after the games launch and promote player retention. Something I found more interesting about the article is how GaaS is used as a means to justify (on the publishers side) the fact that you don't really own your games. |
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hawkster94
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR
Origin: Hawkster94
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Post by hawkster94 on Sept 19, 2018 0:24:22 GMT
Live service in and of itself isn't an issue, more than it is how it's executed and supported. Even The Witcher 3 had live service elements initially during release. TW3 didn't have "live service". It had free DLCs and in addition it had two massive expansions. The way I understand the term "live service", it tends to describe some or all of the following: 1. Always online / MMO games that release content periodically, often while pushing MTX. 2. A subscription service, whereby you pay money in advance / each month for access to content, often without knowing in advance what the content is or what is the level of quality. If what they intended was merely to release a bunch of DLCs, there would have been no need to create a fancy new term for it. Pretty it up all you like, but stuff like extra cosmetics, outfits, NG+ releasing post-launch are live-service to me |
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Sept 19, 2018 0:29:17 GMT
They're not dependent on company-controlled servers to run.
Can you say the same for Anthem?
Heck can you say the same for the Bioware games with the always online DRM when they will no longer be able to verify your games?
What does "decades worth of quality characters and gameplay" mean when it all goes away when the lights turn off? Seems like a non-concern to me. If people are still playing, there will be a reason to keep it running. If hardly anyone plays then it will have had its time. I'm surprised you're so worried about Anthem's servers being kept online so long into the future. I didn't think it was a game you were particularly interested in.  Didn't you knew? Hating something is a long term job that goes back to the time of the old BSN, passes through this one and goes on to the next version of BSN in the decade of 2030  |
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 19, 2018 1:01:39 GMT
Longevity of art is variable. A paper book is going to last a lifetime. A theatre or musical performance is one-time-only, at least in that instance, though another performance can be repeated song as the artist chooses. An online game relies upon the servers continuing online. I would expect such a period of time to be many years, but to expect some moral claim over playing an archaic game after 99% of people have moved on seems unreasonable to me. Thankfully, as this hasn't happened to a BioWare game to my knowledge, we're getting needlessly outraged about hypotheticals.  Great analogy, except for a massive problem. Art can decay. Binary digits cannot. Ergo, your mansplaining is total bullshit. |
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
Prime Likes: 376
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Post by bshep on Sept 19, 2018 1:49:19 GMT
Longevity of art is variable. A paper book is going to last a lifetime. A theatre or musical performance is one-time-only, at least in that instance, though another performance can be repeated song as the artist chooses. An online game relies upon the servers continuing online. I would expect such a period of time to be many years, but to expect some moral claim over playing an archaic game after 99% of people have moved on seems unreasonable to me. Thankfully, as this hasn't happened to a BioWare game to my knowledge, we're getting needlessly outraged about hypotheticals. Great analogy, except for a massive problem. Art can decay. Binary digits cannot. Ergo, your mansplaining is total bullshit. You are the one talking BS. Digital information is more ephemeral than other medias. A small damage on your HDD and you lose all the data inside likely forever, meanwhile we have 10.000 years old (or more) rupestrian pictures laying around.
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Post by river82 on Sept 19, 2018 2:39:26 GMT
In a hurry atm, so I won't be quoting properly. Someone above mentioned that physical books are forever. Just so people are aware, physical books aren't forever whereas digital copies (properly backed up) are forever. That's why major publishers make electronic books in libraries only last a certain number of reads before they need to be "rebought"* to emulate the decay of physical books (which is total BS btw). The book publishing industry is draconian. * Others charge a more "reasonable" price, such as $30 per copy, but allow access for a limited period of time, such as a year, or a limited number of borrowers. Once the limit is reached, the book disappears and the library has to repurchase it.www.cbc.ca/news/technology/e-book-prices-marked-up-too-high-libraries-protest-1.3123465 |
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
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Post by bshep on Sept 19, 2018 2:43:04 GMT
You are the one talking BS. Digital information is more ephemeral than other medias.
A small damage on your HDD and you lose all the data inside likely forever, meanwhile we have 10.000 years old (or more) rupestrian pictures laying around. I'm curious, why are you as a consumer arguing for a reduction in ownership rights in favor of giant corporations? And where did i say that on my post? |
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 19, 2018 8:01:57 GMT
You are the one talking BS. Digital information is more ephemeral than other medias. A small damage on your HDD and you lose all the data inside likely forever, meanwhile we have 10.000 years old (or more) rupestrian pictures laying around. We also have "printed in China" books of such poor quality that the glue begins to crack after a few days of use. I have intentionally bought the digital copies of books (in my case RPG rule books, something that will be paged through a lot if you're new to the game system) because the printed copy was of such poor quality that it stayed in a usable shape for less than half a dozen game sessions. My digital copy is uploaded to Google drive, where it will likely be safe until Google somehow explodes. |
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 19, 2018 8:34:07 GMT
You are the one talking BS. Digital information is more ephemeral than other medias. A small damage on your HDD and you lose all the data inside likely forever, meanwhile we have 10.000 years old (or more) rupestrian pictures laying around. We also have "printed in China" books of such poor quality that the glue begins to crack after a few days of use. I have intentionally bought the digital copies of books (in my case RPG rule books, something that will be paged through a lot if you're new to the game system) because the printed copy was of such poor quality that it stayed in a usable shape for less than half a dozen game sessions. My digital copy is uploaded to Google drive, where it will likely be safe until Google somehow explodes. Data conservation across generations of hardware and storage devices is an interesting topic. I remember selecting scientific publications for photografy on micro film at a library job. Today they would be digitalized in some form. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 19, 2018 12:34:56 GMT
Didn't you knew? Hating something is a long term job that goes back to the time of the old BSN, passes through this one and goes on to the next version of BSN in the decade of 2030 As are/will asinine passive-aggressive replies that ignore arguments.  Anyway, the decay of physical materials vs the potential volatility of digital storage debate is missing the point entirely. Both forms of media can be lost. The point is, in both cases people act to specifically preserve them. People don't leave the Mona Lisa laying around a damp basement, nor do they stick fridge magnets on their HDDs. We preserve important physical art (or replicate it when applicable) as we backup our digital media to redundant drives or to a cloud. So again, why should we accept the deliberate loss of specific media (video games) when the general trend is quite the opposite, regardless of what it's stored on? |
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
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Post by bshep on Sept 19, 2018 15:03:48 GMT
Didn't you knew? Hating something is a long term job that goes back to the time of the old BSN, passes through this one and goes on to the next version of BSN in the decade of 2030 As are/will asinine passive-aggressive replies that ignore arguments. I will defer to your expertise on asinine replies.  And where did i say that on my post? That was the implication anyway. The move from traditional SP games as products into "GaaS" is not a pro-consumer move, it is designed to re-wrap a product as a service in order to be able to monetize it to a greater degree. (of course, since you will pay in advance for the "service" before you even know the quality of the service, the pressure on developers to provide quality goods will be lessened, and you will likely more often get mediocre products) I'm simply trying to understand how it can possibly be in the interest of consumers to defend something like that. No. I am not defending it. I was just pointing out that digital medias per their nature last less time than the physical ones.
About Live services that is a possibility. We all saw what Bungie did with their Destiny games. That being said Bioware would be shooting themselves on the foot if they repeat the same mistakes Bungie did (and got hammered because of them) not once but twice.
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Sept 19, 2018 15:12:49 GMT
I will defer to your expertise on asinine replies. As opposed to your expertise on passive-aggressiveness?...  I am just redirecting what i received...  |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 19, 2018 15:50:01 GMT
As opposed to your expertise on passive-aggressiveness?... I am just redirecting what i received...  It was less redirection and more repeating yourself, technically. But now this chain really is getting asinine. Back on topic, there is no good argument for killing games. And it won't be a positive aspect of any BioWare game going forward, certainly. |
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Post by correctamundo on Sept 27, 2018 12:06:45 GMT
Is shattered steel the elusive game Bioware killed?
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 28, 2018 19:12:04 GMT
I still play games released in the 1980s.
I would like to be able to play today's games 30 years from now.
I have less confidence I will be able to.
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Sept 28, 2018 22:40:45 GMT
Is shattered steel the elusive game Bioware killed? It is the roots Bioware should strive to come back to.   |
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Post by Sifr on Sept 29, 2018 13:55:45 GMT
I still play games released in the 1980s. I would like to be able to play today's games 30 years from now. I have less confidence I will be able to. Yeah, who knows whether the servers/services will function, let alone exist in 30 years?
I miss being able to play games offline and without needing an internet connection to do so.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 30, 2018 12:34:06 GMT
Is shattered steel the elusive game Bioware killed? - I can see Shattered Steel on Steam.
- Also MDK2 on Steam, and
- Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood online.
- Mass Effect Galaxy and
- Mass Effect Infiltrator appear to have cracked .ipa files online to download.
So it looks like the entire BioWare library is available to play (with a little effort for a few).
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Be seeing you.
