sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 9, 2018 23:41:16 GMT
Vivenne is supposed to have more combat experience then most Circle mages and Blackwall (one of the most experienced soldiers we ever had as companion) says he would die in single combat with her The Knight Enchanter specialisation was greatly overpowered so Blackwall was right about this. My Knight Enchanter Lavellan was able to take down even the most powerful dragon in the main game single handed by virtue of the various attributes he got from it. So he would have to have been really caught off his guard to be in serious danger against a regular warrior. Back in DA2 my mage Hawke finished off the Arishok fairly quickly with the right spell combinations but not as swiftly as my Shadow Assassin did, and initially I was struggling before I realised the best spells to use against him, so I feel that better reflected the relative merits of mage and non-mage in a conflict situation. The main danger with any mage is that they normally stand back from the front line of any battle, buffing their own troops and hitting the opposition with area effect spells. Which is why in the first two games I always made sure I pinpointed the mage on a battlefield and took them out first, particularly if they were a blood mage. DAI rather reduced the level threat I felt from any mage we encountered. This is probably because they removed blood mages from the game even as enemies. A blood mage such as we encountered in DAO and DA2 could be a truly frightening and challenging foe. In a one on one situation between a highly trained Templar and a similarly trained mage, I think they would be fairly evenly matched. This is probably why on the whole they hunt down apostates in pairs, to be sure the mage is at a disadvantage. However, a Templar would probably be hard pressed against a high level blood mage, which is why they have Seekers to deal with them. Of course in boiling the lyrium in the mages blood they are themselves using a form of blood magic but they conveniently forget about that. Yeah that generally is the best way to do it take out the mages and archers first as they tend to be the ones there to control th field of battle. When I play a mage in DA I tend to let my warriors take care of the opposing heavy units warriors and dual wielders Whilst I and the rogue I bring along take ca e of the lighter armed ones such as the mages and archers. Once they'er down of course I'll switch my attention to helping my warriors finish of the heavy ones.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 11, 2018 4:26:50 GMT
Mages in Tamriel are far superior to mages from the Dragon Age universe.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 12, 2018 4:28:41 GMT
I'd argue that if mages were really as powerful and dangerous as in-game fearmongers claim, then the Circle system and the Templars would never have come about in the first place, and certainly wouldn't have lasted long enough to degenerate into the abusive, oppressive system it became.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 12, 2018 5:27:40 GMT
I'd argue that if mages were really as powerful and dangerous as in-game fearmongers claim, then the Circle system and the Templars would never have come about in the first place, and certainly wouldn't have lasted long enough to degenerate into the abusive, oppressive system it became. This completely ignores any context, both historical and with regard to human behavior. The system didn't spring into existence as we know it. It happened gradually over a period of time. The rights of mages as people were slowly eroded until they were prisoners of the Chantry. The Chantry taught society to fear mages, so unless a mage actively worked to hide his or her magic, they would receive little support from the local populace. It's a bit difficult to fight against The Man without support. It also ignores the fact that mages are typically taken as children when they have no control over their abilities. Once within the Circle, each mage will react according to his or her personality. Some will take to the system and what it offers. Some don't like to acknowledge this, but it's a fact of human behavior. Some mages will resent the system, but know it is futile to rebel. Sure, Anders eventually succeeded in his escape--after 7 attempts and time in solitary! Most mages are not like Anders. Finally, templars exist because they can negate magic. That can't be disregarded.
Your posts sounds like you're blaming the enslaved for their enslavement, which is very Morrigan-like. Rebellions can be put down so many times before the oppressed think the inevitable failure isn't worth it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 12, 2018 6:47:59 GMT
I'd argue that if mages were really as powerful and dangerous as in-game fearmongers claim, then the Circle system and the Templars would never have come about in the first place, and certainly wouldn't have lasted long enough to degenerate into the abusive, oppressive system it became. This completely ignores any context, both historical and with regard to human behavior. The system didn't spring into existence as we know it. It happened gradually over a period of time. The rights of mages as people were slowly eroded until they were prisoners of the Chantry. The Chantry taught society to fear mages, so unless a mage actively worked to hide his or her magic, they would receive little support from the local populace. It's a bit difficult to fight against The Man without support. It also ignores the fact that mages are typically taken as children when they have no control over their abilities. Once within the Circle, each mage will react according to his or her personality. Some will take to the system and what it offers. Some don't like to acknowledge this, but it's a fact of human behavior. Some mages will resent the system, but know it is futile to rebel. Sure, Anders eventually succeeded in his escape--after 7 attempts and time in solitary! Most mages are not like Anders. Finally, templars exist because they can negate magic. That can't be disregarded.
Your posts sounds like you're blaming the enslaved for their enslavement, which is very Morrigan-like. Rebellions can be put down so many times before the oppressed think the inevitable failure isn't worth it.
I understand that, and I'm not dismissing the context, I'm saying none of the events leading up to the current situation would likely have ever occurred if magic/mages were as world-threateningly dangerous as the Chantry claims. The only real defense against hostile magic is Templar... not-magic, and even then it's not a cure-all. And magic has the significant advantage of having come first. It's innate to the world of Thedas, people are born with their powers. Templar abilities first had to be discovered, presumably by the some genius who decides to ingest lyrium just to see what would happen, and THEN had to be developed into something practically usable, and on top of that, individual Templars STILL need to be trained, just like mages do. I'm not blaming mages, or saying they "should have" stopped it all from happening, but according to the Chantry's own fearmongering, mages certainly COULD have and the Tevinter Imperium absolutely WOULD have, given the opportunity. I mean, consider this: Solas gives us some fairly detailed insights into the power available to mages prior to the existence of the Veil. If that had never come to pass, do you think the Chantry would have ever had a chance? Magic, at least as it currently exists in Thedas, does not provide, or at least does not guarantee "superiority" over ordinary humans. It does offer power, yes, but with clear drawbacks that opponents can exploit.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 12, 2018 9:07:11 GMT
I think that this passage from the wiki regarding mages in Tevinter sums it up best regarding the disparity of power between mages. "Even some mages are not spared, for in mages as in all humans, there exists a spectrum—on one end, the very powerful, on the other, those that can barely light a candle. The Empire cares only for the strongest, and those who do not compare favorably are thrown to the wolves."
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 12, 2018 9:32:33 GMT
Magic, at least as it currently exists in Thedas, does not provide, or at least does not guarantee "superiority" over ordinary humans. It does offer power, yes, but with clear drawbacks that opponents can exploit. There is an interesting story that reinforces your assertion and that concerns the history of the first Archon Darinius. His mother was a mage and priestess of Razikale, yet her brother, who was not a mage, managed to stage a coup against her. Admittedly he waited until she was in the throws of childbirth but even so, if mages ruled supreme how did he even get near to her? More importantly, how did he manage to hang on to power until Darinius was of an age to come back and reclaim his mother's throne? Even if he originally had the assistance of rival mages against the queen, surely they would have got rid of him once their coup was successful. Down south the barbarians probably had a similar set up to that of the Avvar in modern times. There the Augur does not reign supreme over other tribe members but is rather simply a respected member of the community who acts as a bridge with the spirit world. A similar situation is true in traditional Rivain, except there they have a bias towards women being in leading roles. Nevertheless, in both communities mages are not feared but valued. In both communities they have members who are actually encouraged to become possessed by spirits in order to gain knowledge. In the case of the Avvar they use it to train their young mages. Apparently they have no problem with allowing this or it would not have been practised for so long. Ditto the Rivaini Wise Women deliberately allowing themselves to be possessed to gain wisdom. So the whole idea that mages are automatically going to make a grab for power at the expense of the rest of the community is not borne out by the evidence of these ancient systems of governance, which would likely have been the norm at the time Drakon made his grab for power in the south. Nor would rampant abominations seem a common problem or the Avvar and Rivaini would have long since been wiped out. The whole premise that mages need to be carefully monitored and kept away from the community is something that is entirely down to the teaching of the Chantry, encouraged no doubt by non-mage nobility who did not want mages in the general population where they could be the focus for challenging their rule. A further thought. When Hessarian decided to swap to the Andrastrian religion he managed to eradicate his rivals largely by means of the Soporati. It was their greater numbers that allowed him to overwhelm the Altus and Old God priesthood in opposition to him. It was Hessarian who originally started the Circle system and insisted on all mages being trained there to be servants of the state, so of course he could keep control of them. The only reason the Magisters rule supreme in Tevinter is that the arrangement of government maintains that status quo, and in fact the Soporati are complicit in encouraging this because of the value they place on having a mage in the family, just as in the south the arrangement of government keeps mages from positions of power, again because the general population have been manipulated to thinking it is in their best interests. In either case, if a charismatic leader arose to challenge this and won the support of the common people, then things would change. If you chose an inspired Leliana for Divine in the south, then this does happen. In fact you can say this is also he case with a ruthless Leliana or even Vivienne. So it is entirely possible that they will engineer a similar situation in Tevinter where the PC is able to challenge the established order there, at least in the short term. However, just as there is no guarantee that the changes in the south will survive beyond the current Divine, so anything you do in Tevinter might not survive long term either.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 12, 2018 14:56:55 GMT
I wonder who recieves a better education, the average Mage or a noble. I imagine that the wealthier families can afford more resources but Circles are funded by the Chantry, which has deeper pockets than a local lord.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 12, 2018 15:18:59 GMT
I wonder who recieves a better education, the average Mage or a noble. I imagine that the wealthier families can afford more resources but Circles are funded by the Chantry, which has deeper pockets than a local lord. Mages are bigger readers, that's for sure. I mean, there is little else to do in the tower.
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Post by mousestalker on Nov 12, 2018 15:35:55 GMT
I wonder who recieves a better education, the average Mage or a noble. I imagine that the wealthier families can afford more resources but Circles are funded by the Chantry, which has deeper pockets than a local lord. Mages are bigger readers, that's for sure. I mean, there is little else to do in the tower.
Anders has a different take on what Mages do in the tower.
Just sayin'...
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Post by Catilina on Nov 12, 2018 16:11:24 GMT
Mages are bigger readers, that's for sure. I mean, there is little else to do in the tower. Anders has a different take on what Mages do in the tower. Just sayin'... The Circle is shit – boring. They have to try to spend their times...
Probably weird, but Anders, in fact, thinks, the Circle is the best in teaching.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 12, 2018 16:41:00 GMT
In regards to education, I mean general studies, magical education is a basic and necessary part of life, but they have to learn other things to be healthy and productive people. I also remember that Josephine attended a boarding school for nobles in Orlais? Given her level of intelligence I think it was pretty good.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 13, 2018 1:55:38 GMT
Anders has a different take on what Mages do in the tower. He also praises the education in a banter with Bethany.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 13, 2018 19:25:45 GMT
In regards to education, I mean general studies, magical education is a basic and necessary part of life, but they have to learn other things to be healthy and productive people. I also remember that Josephine attended a boarding school for nobles in Orlais? Given her level of intelligence I think it was pretty good. It's almost a given that most, if not all, Circles have an excellent academic curricula. Or at least as far as basic courses are concerned. But we have examples showing that they are not beyond limiting academic study, or at least as far as magic is concerned. We already know they limit biological study (for fear of blood magic) and they actively forbid interaction and academic evaluation of other cultures (as seen with Sigrid of the Avvar). Furthermore, it is almost a given that all the education permitted int he Circle of Magi by them are bound and rooted in traditionalist practices that does not encourage much deviation or progressiveness. Or at least that what we can safely assume given what we know of the University of Orlais, an institution that constantly argues with Chantry conservatives over the content of thier classes.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 13, 2018 21:04:57 GMT
I suppose the best place for a magical education will probably be Tevinter, unrestricted by Chantry censorship (Southern Chantry at least, no idea on the Imperial Chantry's views. Probably cover up anything that could discredit the Imperium, like the identity of the Magisters Sidereal or the 'war' against the Elves).
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 14, 2018 18:41:16 GMT
I suppose the best place for a magical education will probably be Tevinter, unrestricted by Chantry censorship (Southern Chantry at least, no idea on the Imperial Chantry's views. Probably cover up anything that could discredit the Imperium, like the identity of the Magisters Sidereal or the 'war' against the Elves). That's not magical education, though, that's history. Every country has their own take on revisionist history, but I don't expect that to affect, say, their teaching of mathematics.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 14, 2018 18:54:08 GMT
I suppose the best place for a magical education will probably be Tevinter, unrestricted by Chantry censorship (Southern Chantry at least, no idea on the Imperial Chantry's views. Probably cover up anything that could discredit the Imperium, like the identity of the Magisters Sidereal or the 'war' against the Elves). That's not magical education, though, that's history. Every country has their own take on revisionist history, but I don't expect that to affect, say, their teaching of mathematics. Quite right. Really hoping our human origin is Tevinter, especially if we are a Mage.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 14, 2018 21:41:57 GMT
In regards to education, I mean general studies, magical education is a basic and necessary part of life, but they have to learn other things to be healthy and productive people. I also remember that Josephine attended a boarding school for nobles in Orlais? Given her level of intelligence I think it was pretty good. You would think that the Circle would prioritize education of blacksmithing, stone masonry, farming, animal husbandry, and medicine for mages to be productive for them to become valuable members of society. But the Chantry would rather suppress and imprison mages without constructive education and skills, rather than create ways to improve with the circle's education system. And that's why everything is falling apart, because of the Chantry's stupidity and abuse of power.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 14, 2018 22:48:36 GMT
In regards to education, I mean general studies, magical education is a basic and necessary part of life, but they have to learn other things to be healthy and productive people. I also remember that Josephine attended a boarding school for nobles in Orlais? Given her level of intelligence I think it was pretty good. You would think that the Circle would prioritize education of blacksmithing, stone masonry, farming, animal husbandry, and medicine for mages to be productive for them to become valuable members of society. But the Chantry would rather suppress and imprison mages without constructive education and skills, rather than create ways to improve with the circle's education system. And that's why everything is falling apart, because of the Chantry's stupidity and abuse of power. I'd give them some credit though. We know that they can learn more practical skills like alchemy, healing and medicine. But the Circles also apparently permit things like sculpting, painting and artisanship--and several of these works can end up in castles or estates. Though I imagine this practice varies by Circle to Circle. But still, there is some criticism to be made. Mostly with how they seem to prefer to keep mages isolated except from when they serve the upper class or serve some sort of scholarly or Chantry function.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 15, 2018 5:05:22 GMT
You would think that the Circle would prioritize education of blacksmithing, stone masonry, farming, animal husbandry, and medicine for mages to be productive for them to become valuable members of society. But the Chantry would rather suppress and imprison mages without constructive education and skills, rather than create ways to improve with the circle's education system. And that's why everything is falling apart, because of the Chantry's stupidity and abuse of power. I'd give them some credit though. We know that they can learn more practical skills like alchemy, healing and medicine. But the Circles also apparently permit things like sculpting, painting and artisanship--and several of these works can end up in castles or estates. Though I imagine this practice varies by Circle to Circle. But still, there is some criticism to be made. Mostly with how they seem to prefer to keep mages isolated except from when they serve the upper class or serve some sort of scholarly or Chantry function. If they've been given perks by the Chantry, then why does the circle rebel against them when they've taken and imprisoned mages like they were criminals? Either someone hasn't been doing a good job, or plain incompetent and want to have power over them.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 15, 2018 5:51:25 GMT
I'd give them some credit though. We know that they can learn more practical skills like alchemy, healing and medicine. But the Circles also apparently permit things like sculpting, painting and artisanship--and several of these works can end up in castles or estates. Though I imagine this practice varies by Circle to Circle. But still, there is some criticism to be made. Mostly with how they seem to prefer to keep mages isolated except from when they serve the upper class or serve some sort of scholarly or Chantry function. If they've been given perks by the Chantry, then why does the circle rebel against them when they've taken and imprisoned mages like they were criminals? Either, someone hasn't been doing a good job or plain incompetent and want to have power over them. The main rallying cry for the rebel mages was a fight against templar abuse. But the specific reasons stated in their little pamphlet in DAI states more specific reasons like the use of tranquility as a political bludgeon and how the templar's purpose was prevented into a relationship of warden-and-jailor rather than practitioner-and-protector. And we have accounts/witnesses to these abuse. Prominent among them being Anders (of the Ferelden Circle) who claimed that beatings and rapings happen even though he it never happened to him, and Cole (of the White Spire) who claims much of the same. And Fiona was practically notorious for the joining the Grey Wardens to escape the Circle...and seeing as she was a ex-slave herself, this doesn't exactly paint the Circle in a positive light. But that doesn't mean that horrible experience was universal for the mages. A good amount of the mages we speak to in Redcliffe were actually loyalists of the Circle system who got dragged into the rebellion involuntarily. We have mages like Vivienne (imperial enchanter) and Zither (a bard for nobles and commoners) who still support the old Chantry system. And who could forget Wynne, debatably one of the most important figures that advocated for Circle reform. These mages either describe an ideal Circle experience, or in the case of Wynne, saw problems but had faith that the system could be salvaged. And that was exactly the problem--only so many mages were ever able to experience an ideal Circle experience. And a large enough portion of the mages were dissatisfied, abused or pushed enough that movements for reform were started. And when those pushes for reform either failed or actually made thier situations worse, the potential for rebellion only increased until it reached a breaking point at the White Spire revolt.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 15, 2018 18:17:49 GMT
prioritize education of blacksmithing, stone masonry, farming, animal husbandry, and medicine for mages to be productive for them to become valuable members of society. What's your definition of valuable? Magic is the most valuable thing a mage could be doing IMO. And it's value isn't merely instrumental.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2018 18:42:17 GMT
I wonder who recieves a better education, the average Mage or a noble. I imagine that the wealthier families can afford more resources but Circles are funded by the Chantry, which has deeper pockets than a local lord. I think a lot would depend on how much store the nobility place on education. It would also appear to vary from country to country. In Tevinter non-mage education is considerably inferior. Alexius was originally arguing for better education for the Soporati even before his son was discovered to be little better than one. It was the fact there were no institutes of higher learning for the Soporati in Tevinter that meant Felix had to travel to Orlais in order to study Mathematics with the best minds available in the subject. Meanwhile, it would seem that it was only under the reign of Celene that the University of Orlais managed to free itself from the shackles that the Chantry placed on their studies. In addition to mathematics they would appear to have a focus on history and the arts. Markham in the Freemarches also has one of the largest universities in Thedas but it focuses on agricultural research, unsurprising considering that the Freemarches are the breadbasket of Thedas. Back in Ferelden there does not appear to be anything other than private tutors for non magical education, so nobility would have to travel elsewhere for a university education and presumably the commoners are lucky if they are even taught to read and write. So at least there it would seem that the education given in the Circle, even in just the basics, would be superior to that on the outside anywhere other than the Chantry, where it would seem they do give a rudimentary education to their lay members and certainly to the clergy. Of course in the case of both these institutions, the Chantry control the content of the education. There are several Tevinter authors that are on their list of banned books but even The Seer's Yarn of children's stories from across Thedas is forbidden reading, presumably because the author is a Rivaini Seer who does not discriminate in what she includes no matter what the source, including the Qun.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 15, 2018 19:56:20 GMT
prioritize education of blacksmithing, stone masonry, farming, animal husbandry, and medicine for mages to be productive for them to become valuable members of society. What's your definition of valuable? Magic is the most valuable thing a mage could be doing IMO. And it's value isn't merely instrumental. I made it pretty clear that mages can be valuable by providing skills to mages to have a trade to help society, aside learning magic and nothing else. And mages also can be valuable by finding cures of the blight infection, and have mages as recruiters (instead of Templars) to have young people who are gifted with magic into circles to receive proper education.
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inherit
975
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1,677
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3,871
Aug 14, 2016 11:41:22 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
sicklyhour015
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 15, 2018 20:21:36 GMT
If they've been given perks by the Chantry, then why does the circle rebel against them when they've taken and imprisoned mages like they were criminals? Either, someone hasn't been doing a good job or plain incompetent and want to have power over them. The main rallying cry for the rebel mages was a fight against templar abuse. But the specific reasons stated in their little pamphlet in DAI states more specific reasons like the use of tranquility as a political bludgeon and how the templar's purpose was prevented into a relationship of warden-and-jailor rather than practitioner-and-protector. And we have accounts/witnesses to these abuse. Prominent among them being Anders (of the Ferelden Circle) who claimed that beatings and rapings happen even though he it never happened to him, and Cole (of the White Spire) who claims much of the same. And Fiona was practically notorious for the joining the Grey Wardens to escape the Circle...and seeing as she was a ex-slave herself, this doesn't exactly paint the Circle in a positive light. But that doesn't mean that horrible experience was universal for the mages. A good amount of the mages we speak to in Redcliffe were actually loyalists of the Circle system who got dragged into the rebellion involuntarily. We have mages like Vivienne (imperial enchanter) and Zither (a bard for nobles and commoners) who still support the old Chantry system. And who could forget Wynne, debatably one of the most important figures that advocated for Circle reform. These mages either describe an ideal Circle experience, or in the case of Wynne, saw problems but had faith that the system could be salvaged. And that was exactly the problem--only so many mages were ever able to experience an ideal Circle experience. And a large enough portion of the mages were dissatisfied, abused or pushed enough that movements for reform were started. And when those pushes for reform either failed or actually made thier situations worse, the potential for rebellion only increased until it reached a breaking point at the White Spire revolt. That doesn't make any sense. If there were abuses of mages then why the Chantry doesn't look into the abuses of mages from the Templars? (Which they are responsible for.) All circles have varying degrees of abuse. It is an abuse of power to imprison someone because they were born a mage, and rob them of their freedom because of fear and justification to abuse mages.
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