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Post by Ruliya on Jan 19, 2019 4:41:07 GMT
Then I fail to see your point, as this was discussed more or less at your time stamp. I'll try to explain it better tomorrow, time to call it a day on my end. Been nice chatting with you, and don't feel bad not getting something right away. It's been like this with many of us, including myself. It's just that I've been following this subject for a long enough time to have many things repeatably drilled into me until things finally clicked. Have a good night, Ruliya. Oh, I know the science and I understand it well, as I said to others, I do like to humour people, after all there is no reason to ridicule someone for their thought processes. An understanding and talk helps broaden minds more than it clouds them. Have a good night yourself TF.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 19, 2019 4:41:24 GMT
How do flaters like their beer?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 19, 2019 4:56:18 GMT
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Post by Sifr on Jan 19, 2019 7:39:50 GMT
Why do Flat Earthers hate the Home Alone movies? Because they reject anything associated with Chris Columbus.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 19, 2019 12:22:46 GMT
A lovely just so story. Alas, just so stories are proof of nothing. It's like Saren Arterius walking up to Harbinger to inquire if he's really been indoctrinated and Harbinger gives him a lovely just so story that everything is fine. His mind is still is own.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 19, 2019 12:22:58 GMT
Why do Flat Earthers hate the Home Alone movies? Because they reject anything associated with Chris Columbus. Christopher Columbus, another lovely just so story.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 19, 2019 12:23:28 GMT
I'll try to explain it better tomorrow, time to call it a day on my end. Been nice chatting with you, and don't feel bad not getting something right away. It's been like this with many of us, including myself. It's just that I've been following this subject for a long enough time to have many things repeatably drilled into me until things finally clicked. Have a good night, Ruliya. Oh, I know the science and I understand it well, as I said to others, I do like to humour people, after all there is no reason to ridicule someone for their thought processes. An understanding and talk helps broaden minds more than it clouds them. Have a good night yourself TF. Exponential growth - Growth of a system in which the amount being added to the system is proportional to the amount already present; the bigger the system is, the greater the increase (see geometric progression) Geometric progression - a sequence of terms in which the ratio between any two successive terms is the same, as the progression 1, 3, 9, 27, 81 or 144, 12, 1, 1//12, 1/144. Linear growth - means that it grows by the same amount in each step. ie. 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 3, 6, 9. Exponential vs. Linear. You can recognize exponential and linear functions by their graph. Linear functions are straight lines while exponential functions are curved lines. ... If the same number is being added to y, then the function had a constant change and is linear. study.com/cimages/multimages/16/graphs123.pngIf if we look at the Earth curvature drop rate; We see that it is an exponential drop rate with each consecutive mile (8 inches per mile squared). 1 mile = 8 inches curvature drop 2 mile = 32 inches 3 mile = 72 inches 4 mile = 128 inches 5 mile = 200 inches Connect the dots and you end up with a curved line. Now compare that with a flat Earth and our perspective angular reduction rate; ^ And you get a linear straight line drop rate. So in this next picture, the drop of telephone poles is a linear drop matching perspective viewing function. ^ As in the telephone poles aren't going over Earth curvature, they are simple being reduced in viewing angle size at a linear rate due to perspective alone. The globe model simple hijacked perspective for curvature drop, and the funny thing is that if you combine curvature drop rate with perspective (which the curve calculators conveniently ignore since it's just hijacked perspective in disguise), the curvature drop rate should be twice as noticeable. Because things are now going behind the curve and shrinking in angular size at the same time, resulting in foreground objects obstructing background objects at a higher rate.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 19, 2019 13:27:14 GMT
Mind circling back to this TF?
"Well, was already aware of the Mercator and Gall Peters projections."
Aware of what? Their existence? Or the fact that they fail to depict reality? If you don't feel qualified to answer (or more accurately, you know that answering is devastating to your beliefs) do you know what other flat earthers say about map projections? I've looked but haven't been able to find any possible explanations. Not that those explanations would be correct, because the only correct explanation is that the earth is spherical, but I'm always interested in FE attempts nonetheless.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 19, 2019 15:00:35 GMT
A lovely just so story. Alas, just so stories are proof of nothing. It's like Saren Arterius walking up to Harbinger to inquire if he's really been indoctrinated and Harbinger gives him a lovely just so story that everything is fine. His mind is still is own. WOW, you think actual historical events are a story?! You truly deserve this gif. media0.giphy.com/media/aSTJbOerwCKqc/giphy.gif
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 19, 2019 16:34:17 GMT
Mind circling back to this TF? "Well, was already aware of the Mercator and Gall Peters projections." Aware of what? Their existence? Or the fact that they fail to depict reality? If you don't feel qualified to answer (or more accurately, you know that answering is devastating to your beliefs) do you know what other flat earthers say about map projections? I've looked but haven't been able to find any possible explanations. Not that those explanations would be correct, because the only correct explanation is that the earth is spherical, but I'm always interested in FE attempts nonetheless.Maps are a reification fallacy. And saying "the only correct explanation is that the Earth is spherical" is an affirming the consequent fallacy.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 19, 2019 16:49:04 GMT
Mind circling back to this TF? "Well, was already aware of the Mercator and Gall Peters projections." Aware of what? Their existence? Or the fact that they fail to depict reality? If you don't feel qualified to answer (or more accurately, you know that answering is devastating to your beliefs) do you know what other flat earthers say about map projections? I've looked but haven't been able to find any possible explanations. Not that those explanations would be correct, because the only correct explanation is that the earth is spherical, but I'm always interested in FE attempts nonetheless.Maps are a reification fallacy. And saying "the only correct explanation is that the Earth is spherical" is an affirming the consequent fallacy. You know that just randomly picking fallacy names out of a hat doesn't make an argument, right?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 19, 2019 16:56:20 GMT
Maps are a reification fallacy. And saying "the only correct explanation is that the Earth is spherical" is an affirming the consequent fallacy. You know that just randomly picking fallacy names out of a hat doesn't make an argument, right? Sums up just about everything about flaters arguments.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 19, 2019 17:06:31 GMT
Mind circling back to this TF? "Well, was already aware of the Mercator and Gall Peters projections." Aware of what? Their existence? Or the fact that they fail to depict reality? If you don't feel qualified to answer (or more accurately, you know that answering is devastating to your beliefs) do you know what other flat earthers say about map projections? I've looked but haven't been able to find any possible explanations. Not that those explanations would be correct, because the only correct explanation is that the earth is spherical, but I'm always interested in FE attempts nonetheless.Maps are a reification fallacy. And saying "the only correct explanation is that the Earth is spherical" is an affirming the consequent fallacy. Apologies for the double post but I want to you see how the reply you posted is a complete and utterly worthless response to mine. Let's break down my post point by point and then the same for yours. "Well, was already aware of the Mercator and Gall Peters projections." Aware of what? Their existence? Or the fact that they fail to depict reality?You made a statement, that you are aware of two projections. I asked for clarification on that statement. You were (purposefully or unintentionally) vague in your response. So, you could easily respond with clarification on that, but you failed to. If you don't feel qualified to answer (or more accurately, you know that answering is devastating to your beliefs) do you know what other flat earthers say about map projections?
I'm giving you an out here to save face by being able to admit simple ignorance on a subject, something that everyone has since no one can speak intelligently on every single subject. You could take this lifeline and simply let others do the talking for you. This is clearly an olive branch (despite the snarky parenthetical) in wanting to learn more about the subject from the FE point of view and not simply trying to trap you in a falsifiable statement. You could have taken it, but you failed to. I've looked but haven't been able to find any possible explanations. Not that those explanations would be correct, because the only correct explanation is that the earth is spherical, but I'm always interested in FE attempts nonetheless.I'm making my position known, that the reason why 2D maps are incorrect is because they're attempting to portray a three dimensional object in a 2D plane, which is obviously not possible without shortcomings. Again though, it has nothing to do with you specifically, it's establishing that I really am interested in the standard flat earth position and not your position. You could have ran with this and provided the requested information to further the conversation, but you failed to. And now your response: Maps are a reification fallacy.
And saying "the only correct explanation is that the Earth is spherical" is an affirming the consequent fallacy.How does any of that follow? Does it clarify the ambiguous statement you made earlier? Does it provide additional information that I asked for? It does neither. It is simply more syntactically correct but semantically meaningless nonsense.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 19, 2019 18:14:39 GMT
Already stated we can't prove maps and already knew it's a reification fallacy. But was still curious to hear what you had to share so entertained this fallacy with the warning that I wouldn't be able to contribute to this discussion.
And affirming the consequent fallacy is the assumption that one follows the other. ie. If car is out of gas, car won't run. If car won't run, car is out of gas. Well what if something else is wrong with the car? That's why it's a fallacy.
But it gets worse because your affirming the consequent is based off a reification fallacy. So it's an assumption based off another assumption.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 19, 2019 18:46:53 GMT
Already stated we can't prove maps and already knew it's a reification fallacy. But was still curious to hear what you had to share so entertained this fallacy with the warning that I wouldn't be able to contribute to this discussion. And affirming the consequent fallacy is the assumption that one follows the other. ie. If car is out of gas, car won't run. If car won't run, car is out of gas. Well what if something else is wrong with the car? That's why it's a fallacy. But it gets worse because your affirming the consequent is based off a reification fallacy. So it's an assumption based off another assumption. "We can't prove maps." - Flat Earth, 2019 What does that even mean?
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 19, 2019 23:18:07 GMT
I didn't make a claim. I asked a question. I proposed a test. You won't run it. You refuse to examine actual testable evidence. Why did you ever use that hallway analogy given how obviously and immediately refutable it is? Why did you make that China analogy given how obviously and immediately refutable it is? It isn't, though. If you look from a higher angle, or across an area with no topography, there's nothing in the way. You mentioned going to the seaside is something you have done. If you look across the ocean with a telescope, why can't you see all the way across it?
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 20, 2019 0:48:07 GMT
Here's a great article about the difference between skepticism and denial. It's from 2002 so they don't address FE concerns, but the principles apply here as well as their sample cases. theness.com/index.php/skepticism-and-denial/
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 20, 2019 2:28:45 GMT
Skeptics and deniers are very different things.
Being skeptical is smart. One should absolutely doubt things.
But denial isn't doubt. Denial is belief. Belief in the absence of something is belief. Skepticism and denial are polar opposites.
I am entirely unsurprised that religious people favour denial, because their whole worldview is already based on blind unquestioning faith. The scientific process, which consists entirely of questioning and doubt, is alien to them.
I think that's why TF keeps insisting that science can prove things true, even though that's absurd.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 20, 2019 12:17:56 GMT
Why did you make that China analogy given how obviously and immediately refutable it is? It isn't, though. If you look from a higher angle, or across an area with no topography, there's nothing in the way. You mentioned going to the seaside is something you have done. If you look across the ocean with a telescope, why can't you see all the way across it? All you ever do is obfuscate with assertions you never back up. Called this ever since I pointed out your fave philosopher and philosophy is the guy who says nothing can be proven, which is a philosophy and excuse in how to obfuscate indefinitely and appeal to ignorance. So lets recount in spoiler tag a few times I've backed up my claims on how vision works; ... I can see the end of a hallway. Don't know what hallways you're using. Point is, you claim that you look and see the Earth is flat. I'm saying if I use a telescope to look beyond the limits of my unenhanced vision that I still can't see distant places on Earth. Where did those places go? Do they occasionally vanish for some reason? You can't just zoom in forever, angular resolution and object size reduction prevent that. ie. Can zoom in on a pixel all you want, it will still be a pixel. ^ Timestamped to where he zooms out from a very distant mountain in infrared camera at 30,000 feet plane ride. This gives a good scale on how our vision works for long range distances. ... ... So how can we go about verifying or falsifying this China claim? We can falsify this China claim with one picture. Sylvius the Mad Objects in foreground appear larger then objects in background. So even with the claim that a powerful enough telescope could see China, China would be obscured by all the foreground objects that precede it. ... ... Only appears to set due to perspective. ^ In this 20 second clip, zooming on apparent sunset brings it back up into the sky because it's just an illusion that it sets. For another video demonstration of sunsets and perspective; ^ Timestamped to relevant point, but stick around for an additional minute or two to see sun time lapses of this in action. And if you use a drone to get high enough; ^ You actually see sun fade into the distance before it appear to set due to perspective. ... ... Is there any evidence for the positive claim that perspective can achieve the same effect? It's just the law of perspective. Everything converges with the most limited viewing angle cutting off first (why things disappear bottom up first since we're closet to ground therefore our viewing angle is most compressed from ground level to horizon at eye level). ... ... Evidence, not conjecture. Empirical observations, I mean. Surely the claim that this is why the sun appears to go below the horizon can be repeated on a scale model, yes? Or even in an adequately modeled simulation? And that's not now perspective works. Converging with a point on the horizon is not the same as being obscured by it. A limited viewing angle can act as obstruction. This can be repeatably demonstrated by everyone via phone camera and a very flat floor (like a major chain supermarket floors since it's a safety thing). ... ... The irony is you're easy to see through while constantly obfuscating. Tho for funsies let's look at it again. Coz there's something you keep not bringing up. China may not be visible even with a telescope, from certain places, Hawaii and Japan could possibly get in the way when looking from America. But what about Mount Everest? The highest point on the planet. Surely that mountain and it's range, and most large mountain ranges should be viewable. With telescopes Mt Everest should then be visible from pretty much any place on Earth, right? Coz it's the highest point on the planet. So why isn't it? And you can't say foreground objects would obscure it, it's too tall. Unless you're purposely standing in front of something. So why can't I see Everest with a telescope? I can see the moon coz it's a large object and there's an unbroken line of sight between me and it. So surely I should be able to see Everest on a flat Earth, at least the top half of it anyway. First, mount Everest at 5 miles high being view-able from anywhere on the Earth is not possible given the angular size reduction with distance calculations. Second, infrared modified 4k zoom cameras tell another tale; Mountains the were previously hidden behind atmosphere, the infrared cuts right through revealing them to right there all along. (Video is timestamped to point of this comparison) ... ... And why do you believe that random math and not other math that has been presented in this thread? That is the official math for the ball Earth. And there's even several curve calculator, including one from Mick West; www.metabunk.org/curve/The math does not match repeatable observations by everyday people. ie. In this timestamped video bellow from a clip excerpt of a flat Earth debate episode, a baller modeled these wind turbines over water on a ball that clearly show accumulative curvature drop. But when matched next to a photograph of these turbines, the accumulative drop from them as should be on a globe is missing. Instead replaced by a straight linear drop perfectly matching perspective on a flat plane. ... ... Oh, I know the science and I understand it well, as I said to others, I do like to humour people, after all there is no reason to ridicule someone for their thought processes. An understanding and talk helps broaden minds more than it clouds them. Have a good night yourself TF. Exponential growth - Growth of a system in which the amount being added to the system is proportional to the amount already present; the bigger the system is, the greater the increase (see geometric progression) Geometric progression - a sequence of terms in which the ratio between any two successive terms is the same, as the progression 1, 3, 9, 27, 81 or 144, 12, 1, 1//12, 1/144. Linear growth - means that it grows by the same amount in each step. ie. 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 3, 6, 9. Exponential vs. Linear. You can recognize exponential and linear functions by their graph. Linear functions are straight lines while exponential functions are curved lines. ... If the same number is being added to y, then the function had a constant change and is linear. study.com/cimages/multimages/16/graphs123.pngIf if we look at the Earth curvature drop rate; We see that it is an exponential drop rate with each consecutive mile (8 inches per mile squared). 1 mile = 8 inches curvature drop 2 mile = 32 inches 3 mile = 72 inches 4 mile = 128 inches 5 mile = 200 inches Connect the dots and you end up with a curved line. Now compare that with a flat Earth and our perspective angular reduction rate; ^ And you get a linear straight line drop rate. So in this next picture, the drop of telephone poles is a linear drop matching perspective viewing function. ^ As in the telephone poles aren't going over Earth curvature, they are simple being reduced in viewing angle size at a linear rate due to perspective alone. The globe model simple hijacked perspective for curvature drop, and the funny thing is that if you combine curvature drop rate with perspective (which the curve calculators conveniently ignore since it's just hijacked perspective in disguise), the curvature drop rate should be twice as noticeable. Because things are now going behind the curve and shrinking in angular size at the same time, resulting in foreground objects obstructing background objects at a higher rate. ... And how many times you've backed any of your claims on Superman comic fiction vision? zero
What's next, asserting we can see through walls?
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 20, 2019 12:18:10 GMT
Skeptics and deniers are very different things. Being skeptical is smart. One should absolutely doubt things. But denial isn't doubt. Denial is belief. Belief in the absence of something is belief. Skepticism and denial are polar opposites. I am entirely unsurprised that religious people favour denial, because their whole worldview is already based on blind unquestioning faith. The scientific process, which consists entirely of questioning and doubt, is alien to them. I think that's why TF keeps insisting that science can prove things true, even though that's absurd. You're the only one here in their ivory tower of assertions and magic wand of hand wave dismissals.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 20, 2019 13:24:35 GMT
Skeptics and deniers are very different things. Being skeptical is smart. One should absolutely doubt things. But denial isn't doubt. Denial is belief. Belief in the absence of something is belief. Skepticism and denial are polar opposites. I am entirely unsurprised that religious people favour denial, because their whole worldview is already based on blind unquestioning faith. The scientific process, which consists entirely of questioning and doubt, is alien to them. I think that's why TF keeps insisting that science can prove things true, even though that's absurd. You're the only one here in their ivory tower of assertions and magic wand of hand wave dismissals. No, that's just you.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 20, 2019 14:35:53 GMT
Skeptics and deniers are very different things. Being skeptical is smart. One should absolutely doubt things. But denial isn't doubt. Denial is belief. Belief in the absence of something is belief. Skepticism and denial are polar opposites. I am entirely unsurprised that religious people favour denial, because their whole worldview is already based on blind unquestioning faith. The scientific process, which consists entirely of questioning and doubt, is alien to them. I think that's why TF keeps insisting that science can prove things true, even though that's absurd. Maybe read that article instead of just spouting off about the keywords in the title.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 20, 2019 18:10:45 GMT
Globebusters is back for another season of live streams every Sunday 3pm Eastern Time (2 hours from now). These live streams have the most gathering of flat Earthers for quite the busy live text chats, so good place to gauge what flat Earthers are like for anyone interested.
The host, Bob Knodel, is a great representative of FE and he highlight FE materials from other channels, has guests from other channels and is a great gathering place for what's going on in the FE community.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 20, 2019 19:21:57 GMT
Skeptics and deniers are very different things. Being skeptical is smart. One should absolutely doubt things. But denial isn't doubt. Denial is belief. Belief in the absence of something is belief. Skepticism and denial are polar opposites. I am entirely unsurprised that religious people favour denial, because their whole worldview is already based on blind unquestioning faith. The scientific process, which consists entirely of questioning and doubt, is alien to them. I think that's why TF keeps insisting that science can prove things true, even though that's absurd. Maybe read that article instead of just spouting off about the keywords in the title. I read the article. The first 20% of it or so is basically things I have said earlier in this thread regarding the philosophy of science. And it does go on at more length than is warranted, going through repeated examples repeatedly demonstrating the same point. I also disagree with the final conclusion. It is trivial, I would argue, to distinguish between skeptics and deniers, because the deniers are the ones making positive claims. Deniers (and believers) insist that something is or isn't true, while skeptics eschew this sort of absolute confidence.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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August 2016
sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 20, 2019 19:24:04 GMT
Skeptics and deniers are very different things. Being skeptical is smart. One should absolutely doubt things. But denial isn't doubt. Denial is belief. Belief in the absence of something is belief. Skepticism and denial are polar opposites. I am entirely unsurprised that religious people favour denial, because their whole worldview is already based on blind unquestioning faith. The scientific process, which consists entirely of questioning and doubt, is alien to them. I think that's why TF keeps insisting that science can prove things true, even though that's absurd. You're the only one here in their ivory tower of assertions and magic wand of hand wave dismissals. Can you please identify a single assertion I have made regarding the shape of the earth?
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