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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 2:54:02 GMT
I accepted this at face value on his part. Then I challenged him to show me the edge of the Earth. He made a disparaging remark instead of acknowledging he had the inability to prove flat Earth. The only "flat earth" I'll give him is a flat landscape...if the premise is that everywhere he looks, the earth is flat, he has a point. But if he were actually interested in proving that it is flat all over, then he would actually have to show initiative and go out and explore the world, wouldn't he? Most curvature tests are done over large bodies of water to solve this dilemma you speak of.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 3:11:11 GMT
Western Washington University interviewing Mark Sargent.
Going to share a Mark Sargent video as he's very pleasant to listen to and his flat Earth chit chat is very simple and put in a perspective that everyone can relate to.
The mainstream media loves to label him as "el leader" for some reason, but he does end up in the mainstream media a lot. And for this reason many flat Earthers like to label him as a shill. Personally, I enjoy his banter.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 4:03:10 GMT
^^^^Flat Earth video. Again. Show me the edge!
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 23, 2019 5:22:45 GMT
And we can see up to 1,000 km (which shouldn't be possible on the globe model. Not even close); ^ Short 2 min clip to back up my claim and add more context to how vision works. What was the altitude of that plane? That matters a lot. Let's work it out. If the chord length is 760 miles, and the earth is a globe (median radius 6,371 km), that distance spans 5.5° of arc (or 0.096 radians). The distance the plane would need to be above the earth's surface in order to be able to see Baja, is: (cos(5.5°)/radius of earth) - radius of earth. The plane, assuming no other effects, would need to be at about 96,000 feet of elevation. That's too high. But you also mentioned refraction. The earth's atmosphere is more dense at lower elevations, so light traveling downward at a angle will tend to bend into the density. Light lensing around the earth is a well-documented phenomenon. That's why, in the globe model, the sun remains visible for about 4 minutes too many each day. Your observation is still entirely consistent with a globe earth. Why can't you see Cleveland from the CN Tower? That's well within your 1000 km range. The answer, of course, if that the CN Tower isn't tall enough, but it should be with a flat earth, and anyone who has finished grade 8 geometry can prove it.
Also, I can totally see the curve in that footage. Using your direct observation standard, the world is observably round.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 23, 2019 5:29:52 GMT
Show me your single best ball Earth proof that is 100%. Show me science. That's a self-defeating question. No science is 100%. That's not how science works. And yet, stellar locations still do this well enough. That we can predict the location of stars in the sky from any location on earth requires a globe. If you move 1000 km in any direction on the earth's surface, and look at where the stars are from there, you can demonstrate that the world cannot be flat without a wildly exotic theory about how light works. Look where Betelgeuse is (if you're in North America, it's in the sky right now). If you were somewhere else on earth, Betelgeuse would be in a different location in the sky. Do the math for a flat earth and a globe earth and predict its location. Now pick a second star in a different part of the sky and do it again. Only one of the two models will correctly predict the locations of both stars from both locations. That should be all the evidence you need to disprove your flat earth model.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 23, 2019 5:37:10 GMT
Also, I'm not really interested in doing this much longer, but if anyone else wants to keep at it, I recommend Wolfram-Alpha for quick math solutions.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 23, 2019 7:32:32 GMT
And we don't need to go into orbit or Antarctica to disprove ball Earth, there are many more practical ways to do this. Speaking of Antarctica, why is it never included on any FE maps?
We've managed to circumnavigate it via sea for the past two hundred years, have travelled across it via land and air, so the shape and size of the place has been pretty well mapped out by now. Why then is this continent never included on any FE maps, which instead insist that South America and Australia are the nearest to the "edge"?
And if Antartica is meant to be a Ice Wall surrounding the edge, why don't the distances back that up? Because if Antarctica was located near the "rim" of the Flat Earth, then the distance required to circumnavigate it would be thousands of miles greater than those actually recorded?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 7:58:17 GMT
And we don't need to go into orbit or Antarctica to disprove ball Earth, there are many more practical ways to do this. Speaking of Antarctica, why is it never included on any FE maps?
We've managed to circumnavigate it via sea for the past two hundred years, have travelled across it via land and air, so the shape and size of the place has been pretty well mapped out by now. Why then is this continent never included on any FE maps, which instead insist that South America and Australia are the nearest to the "edge"?
And if Antartica is meant to be a Ice Wall surrounding the edge, why don't the distances back that up? Because if Antarctica was located near the "rim" of the Flat Earth, then the distance required to circumnavigate it would be thousands of miles greater than those actually recorded?
I'm kinda curious as to why Japan went all the way out to Hawaii to bomb Pearl Harbour in the Pacific Ocean when they could've attacked by flying over China and bombing Alaska. It would've been closer according to FE maps. Have you SEEN how big the Pacific Ocean is on those maps??!! Call an airline and get the estimated time of departure and arrival to different destinations somewhere along the way, having such a huge ocean between the Eastern Hemisphere and the Western Hemisphere would make it ridiculous to fly over them if they can just fly over the Arctic circle to get to where they're going. I find it highly unlikely that an airline would take the scenic route over the oceans just to hide the existence of a "flat earth", what would they gain from that?
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 23, 2019 10:40:26 GMT
A big problem with TF and folks like that is that they don't understand (or pretend not to) scientific conclusions reached by way of inference. For instance, I might say that a "single best spherical Earth proof" is simply Stellarium.
Stellarium is correct, every time you use it. Run it to a date and time, plug in a location and view direction, and you will get a night sky map. You can go to that place at that time and verify the night sky predicted by Stellarium, and it's going to be correct. Always! In fact you can just post a clear night sky picture anonymously, and we can use Stellarium to determine with high accuracy where you were when you took the pic.
So we can say, "Stellarium is based on a spherical Earth in a heliocentric solar system. Stellarium's predictions can be trusted within a high degree of accuracy. Therefore, we can infer that the model used is true."
But they'll just sputter some bullshit about logical fallacies rather than actually being able to provide a single contrary data point.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 11:20:00 GMT
And we can see up to 1,000 km (which shouldn't be possible on the globe model. Not even close); ^ Short 2 min clip to back up my claim and add more context to how vision works. What was the altitude of that plane? That matters a lot. Let's work it out. If the chord length is 760 miles, and the earth is a globe (median radius 6,371 km), that distance spans 5.5° of arc (or 0.096 radians). The distance the plane would need to be above the earth's surface in order to be able to see Baja, is: (cos(5.5°)/radius of earth) - radius of earth. The plane, assuming no other effects, would need to be at about 96,000 feet of elevation. That's too high. But you also mentioned refraction. The earth's atmosphere is more dense at lower elevations, so light traveling downward at a angle will tend to bend into the density. Light lensing around the earth is a well-documented phenomenon. That's why, in the globe model, the sun remains visible for about 4 minutes too many each day. Your observation is still entirely consistent with a globe earth. Why can't you see Cleveland from the CN Tower? That's well within your 1000 km range. The answer, of course, if that the CN Tower isn't tall enough, but it should be with a flat earth, and anyone who has finished grade 8 geometry can prove it.
Also, I can totally see the curve in that footage. Using your direct observation standard, the world is observably round.
Your math is wrong. Cruising airplane altitude is usually around 30,000 feet (5.68 miles) and with the distance of 760 miles equals that Baja should be hidden by 37.72 miles of curvature or 30.4 miles of refracted hidden. www.metabunk.org/curve/So the plane isn't too high, far from it at those distances.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 11:40:06 GMT
Show me your single best ball Earth proof that is 100%. Show me science. That's a self-defeating question. No science is 100%. That's not how science works. Science is 100% proof. Definition of science according to Merriam Webster; And the scientific method is all about establishing cause and effect via systematic experimentation. Once you can establish what your cause is by being able to manipulate it, you've 100% proved your cause. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to recreate your cause if you weren't 100% sure of what your cause is. An example of cause and effect is manipulating heat (cause/independent variable) effects water boiling rate (effect/dependent variable).
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 15:10:34 GMT
(cos(5.5°)/radius of earth) - radius of earth. The plane, assuming no other effects, would need to be at about 96,000 feet of elevation. Math is a conspiracy.
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Post by Phantom on Jan 23, 2019 15:32:58 GMT
makes popcorn for everyone
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 15:45:40 GMT
makes popcorn for everyone I'm dying from all this butter and salt. Anyway...
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 15:46:03 GMT
Rodrigo Ferrari-Nunes, a Ph.D. in Anthropology interviews 20 flat Earthers for over 38 hour in a case study of humans and human behavior and societies.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 15:57:03 GMT
makes popcorn for everyone I'm dying from all this butter and salt. Anyway...
Remember, got to look at both sides of the argument, dmc.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 16:16:08 GMT
Remember, got to look at both sides of the argument, dmc. Riiiight. Any evidence is fake. Forgot that caveat when discussing anything with FEers. "Ballers" don't generally think FEers are lying. They just think their science is valid. In contrast, FEers always think Ballers are lying. Funny that.
Let's assume he was lying. Show me the edge of the Earth. I can look up and see stars. I can use a telescope to see other celestial bodies. What have you got?
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 16:21:41 GMT
Remember, got to look at both sides of the argument, dmc. Riiiight. Any evidence is fake. Forgot that caveat when discussing anything with FEers. "Ballers" don't generally think FEers are lying. They just think their science is valid. In contrast, FEers always think Ballers are lying. Funny that.
Let's assume he was lying. Show me the edge of the Earth. I can look up and see stars. I can use a telescope to see other celestial bodies. What have you got?
And here we have a flat Earther going to the actual spot where Cody's Lab filmed to verify/falsify his claim.
So who is telling the truth indeed...
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 16:23:40 GMT
So who is telling the truth indeed... When you can show me the edge of the Earth you've got me belief. Meanwhile, I can see other planets through a telescope. Funny that I can see that far away with a telescope but somehow the edge of the Earth is impossible to see.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 16:45:34 GMT
So who is telling the truth indeed... When you can show me the edge of the Earth you've got me belief. Meanwhile, I can see other planets through a telescope. Funny that I can see that far away with a telescope but somehow the edge of the Earth is impossible to see. What are you suggesting, we make like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, rob a train, afford a stealth ship and book it to the edge?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 23, 2019 17:02:58 GMT
My cousin had been to Antarctica. Unsurprisingly, no edge and no solid dome sky.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 23, 2019 17:15:41 GMT
If you have to invent multi-country, multi-generational conspiracies to explain why no one can even attempt to falsify your theory, you no longer have a valid scientific theory.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 19:16:27 GMT
What are you suggesting, we make like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, rob a train, afford a stealth ship and book it to the edge? You're the one who said a round Earth couldn't be proven without going into space. I require the same proof for a flat Earth. Don't play the double standard game.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 19:53:44 GMT
What are you suggesting, we make like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, rob a train, afford a stealth ship and book it to the edge? You're the one who said a round Earth couldn't be proven without going into space. I require the same proof for a flat Earth. Don't play the double standard game. Believe you're misinterpreting something I've said earlier. Because after a certain amount of time researching flat Earth, things start becoming pretty clear with just the evidence we have access to.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 23, 2019 21:42:38 GMT
View from space? But that's fake. If all evidence is fake, there's no proving anything. Hence, debating with you is pointless. That's not science. Science is the scientific method. Footage from space is also an appeal to authority fallacy, since the rest of us don't have access to verify for ourselves. This is what it's all about, what we can verify for ourselves if what we're told is true or not. Surely if the Earth was a ball there would be at least one non-fallacious argument to back it up. Direct quote from you. Note that part where it says "...since the rest of us don't have access to verify for ourselves." You are claiming that footage doesn't count, only going into space and looking down. You don't even have the footage.
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