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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 16, 2019 1:05:21 GMT
Except in this case you(Solas) are the one who launch the asteroid to strike the Earth to raise up those few left. In my analogy, the meteor would be when he first made the Veil. Then your solution would be using a second asteroid to try to fix the results of the first asteroid. Solas committed genocide once and is now trying to commit an even larger genocide to try to fix the first genocide.
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pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 16, 2019 2:09:46 GMT
Well... we don't KNOW that it's a "larger" genocide. By his account, Elven society was far, far more advanced than the Thedas we see today. It was also probably much larger, given that throughout the series, we discover large elven ruins in areas that are currently uninhabited.
Dwarven ones too, for that matter. And their society, we are told, was once much, much larger, with multiple cities, and an extensive underground network that crossed the entire continent.
That said, I don't agree that his actions are in any way justified. The people that died will not be brought back, all he stands to acheive is the potential destruction of everything that exists currently, and the release of pro-slavery deities. That would certainly make Thedas more interesting, but hardly a nice place to live.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 16, 2019 4:23:17 GMT
Well... we don't KNOW that it's a "larger" genocide. By his account, Elven society was far, far more advanced than the Thedas we see today. It was also probably much larger, given that throughout the series, we discover large elven ruins in areas that are currently uninhabited. Dwarven ones too, for that matter. And their society, we are told, was once much, much larger, with multiple cities, and an extensive underground network that crossed the entire continent. That said, I don't agree that his actions are in any way justified. The people that died will not be brought back, all he stands to acheive is the potential destruction of everything that exists currently, and the release of pro-slavery deities. That would certainly make Thedas more interesting, but hardly a nice place to live. The people who died wouldn’t be brought back, but the people currently living could gain immortality. That’s no small thing, it would be like bringing modern medicine to a medieval civilization. Yeah the medieval power structures would be totally fucked by the (re)introduction of this “medicine”, but the existence of aging and disease is a source of unfathomable suffering. Solas is sitting here, in the post-apocalypse, with the “antibiotics” in his hands. Watching people suffer and die from completely preventable causes. I’m pretty sure most of us wouldn’t have even considered the potential for societal upheaval, we’d already be handing out the pills. Even if bringing back modern infrastructure/tech means bringing back all the unjust power structures of modern life, it’s worth it solely for the lives that would (eventually) improve with modern medicine.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 16, 2019 5:21:12 GMT
Well... we don't KNOW that it's a "larger" genocide. By his account, Elven society was far, far more advanced than the Thedas we see today. It was also probably much larger, given that throughout the series, we discover large elven ruins in areas that are currently uninhabited. Dwarven ones too, for that matter. And their society, we are told, was once much, much larger, with multiple cities, and an extensive underground network that crossed the entire continent. That said, I don't agree that his actions are in any way justified. The people that died will not be brought back, all he stands to acheive is the potential destruction of everything that exists currently, and the release of pro-slavery deities. That would certainly make Thedas more interesting, but hardly a nice place to live. The people who died wouldn’t be brought back, but the people currently living could gain immortality. That’s no small thing, it would be like bringing modern medicine to a medieval civilization. Yeah the medieval power structures would be totally fucked by the (re)introduction of this “medicine”, but the existence of aging and disease is a source of unfathomable suffering. Solas is sitting here, in the post-apocalypse, with the “antibiotics” in his hands. Watching people suffer and die from completely preventable causes. I’m pretty sure most of us wouldn’t have even considered the potential for societal upheaval, we’d already be handing out the pills. Even if bringing back modern infrastructure/tech means bringing back all the unjust power structures of modern life, it’s worth it solely for the lives that would (eventually) improve with modern medicine. Except none of the people alive would be given those pills because they’d all be killed off by him to make those pills for others. All in an attempt to cure a plague that he started. You’re ignoring the whole threat of his actions that he himself talks about, hence the whole stopping him either by showing him another way or killing him. So no, I would not be handing out genocide pills.
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,070
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 16, 2019 5:32:24 GMT
Well... we don't KNOW that it's a "larger" genocide. By his account, Elven society was far, far more advanced than the Thedas we see today. It was also probably much larger, given that throughout the series, we discover large elven ruins in areas that are currently uninhabited. Dwarven ones too, for that matter. And their society, we are told, was once much, much larger, with multiple cities, and an extensive underground network that crossed the entire continent. That said, I don't agree that his actions are in any way justified. The people that died will not be brought back, all he stands to acheive is the potential destruction of everything that exists currently, and the release of pro-slavery deities. That would certainly make Thedas more interesting, but hardly a nice place to live. The people who died wouldn’t be brought back, but the people currently living could gain immortality. That’s no small thing, it would be like bringing modern medicine to a medieval civilization. Yeah the medieval power structures would be totally fucked by the (re)introduction of this “medicine”, but the existence of aging and disease is a source of unfathomable suffering. Solas is sitting here, in the post-apocalypse, with the “antibiotics” in his hands. Watching people suffer and die from completely preventable causes. I’m pretty sure most of us wouldn’t have even considered the potential for societal upheaval, we’d already be handing out the pills. Even if bringing back modern infrastructure/tech means bringing back all the unjust power structures of modern life, it’s worth it solely for the lives that would (eventually) improve with modern medicine. Ehhhhhhhh... I'm not convinced that 'immortality' (whatever that looks like in Thedas) is a good idea to begin with, and it's all very well to talk about what Solas could do, or what could happen, but that's not the same as what he will do and what will happen. Obviously I am not looking forward to dying (right now, anyway), most people aren't, but it's pretty easy for me to imagine negative consequences for a world where nobody ever dies (or rarely dies), but new people keep being born. I'm not remotely convinced that Solas is acting out of concern for the plight of the people of Thedas. Conversing with him reveals that he has pretty negative opinions of the races at large, including modern elves. I think he is motivated mostly (if not entirely) by self-interest. He considers himself above everyone, and wants to change the world back to one where he can enjoy the company of the select few people he considers to be his peers. I would frankly not be surprised to see him abandon his past ideals and ally with the remaining Evanuris in order to realize his ambitions.
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Noxluxe
N4
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,993 Likes: 3,517
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,517
Noxluxe
1,993
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 16, 2019 11:06:08 GMT
Whoever the new protagonist is, I hope we get to define our characters' former roles in society, like in that far-too-brief discussion with Josephine. Using those to inform your class choice and temperament gives the RP a fairly strong backbone, and Tevinter is full of cool and interesting societal niches for our protagonists to have filled. Blood-bound spies, anti-magic personal security or apprenticed ritual assistants to powerful or not-so-powerful masters, for example. Or even sex slaves and/or blood dolls, if you like a bit of tragic drama.
In my estimation, Inquisition suffered the most by handling the story and setting very arbitrarily, with no clear indication of how anything was really going or how bad it really was because nobody ever talked about anything but what seemed to be happening in the moment, and when they did they used these vague and overly optimistic or pessimistic descriptions. It'd be nice if 4 did some extra work to ground itself and the story in how the new setting actually works and what is actually going on throughout it. And the protagonist's former responsibilities and way of life seems a good place to start, if we can't actually get an Origins-esque prelude.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 16, 2019 13:28:45 GMT
The people who died wouldn’t be brought back, but the people currently living could gain immortality. That’s no small thing, it would be like bringing modern medicine to a medieval civilization. Yeah the medieval power structures would be totally fucked by the (re)introduction of this “medicine”, but the existence of aging and disease is a source of unfathomable suffering. Solas is sitting here, in the post-apocalypse, with the “antibiotics” in his hands. Watching people suffer and die from completely preventable causes. I’m pretty sure most of us wouldn’t have even considered the potential for societal upheaval, we’d already be handing out the pills. Even if bringing back modern infrastructure/tech means bringing back all the unjust power structures of modern life, it’s worth it solely for the lives that would (eventually) improve with modern medicine. Except none of the people alive would be given those pills because they’d all be killed off by him to make those pills for others. All in an attempt to cure a plague that he started. You’re ignoring the whole threat of his actions that he himself talks about, hence the whole stopping him either by showing him another way or killing him. So no, I would not be handing out genocide pills. When he’s talking about chaos, he’s talking about the societal upheaval part. Introducing anything new, even something good, always messes with existing institutions. Like, the internet is a net good for society, but it also brought new forms of badness with it. It makes everything faster, including the spread of bad ideas. Based on everything Solas says about the Veil (and the mythological parallels to Ragnarök, which is a rebirthing rather than final destruction) this seems to be the kind of chaos he’s anticipating. In fact, the internet is almost a direct parallel, because malicious spirits/gods can be thought of as bad ideas.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 16, 2019 15:19:05 GMT
Except none of the people alive would be given those pills because they’d all be killed off by him to make those pills for others. All in an attempt to cure a plague that he started. You’re ignoring the whole threat of his actions that he himself talks about, hence the whole stopping him either by showing him another way or killing him. So no, I would not be handing out genocide pills. When he’s talking about chaos, he’s talking about the societal upheaval part. Introducing anything new, even something good, always messes with existing institutions. Like, the internet is a net good for society, but it also brought new forms of badness with it. It makes everything faster, including the spread of bad ideas. Based on everything Solas says about the Veil (and the mythological parallels to Ragnarök, which is a rebirthing rather than final destruction) this seems to be the kind of chaos he’s anticipating. In fact, the internet is almost a direct parallel, because malicious spirits/gods can be thought of as bad ideas. No, he’s talking about far more than that. Remember his earlier conversation on the subject, about things like how the sudden ability to alter reality with a thought would devastate this world. That’s far more than just social upheaval. I want you to provide hard evidence for your claims rather than you just waving tho ha off to make Solas seem not as bad.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 16, 2019 15:39:46 GMT
When he’s talking about chaos, he’s talking about the societal upheaval part. Introducing anything new, even something good, always messes with existing institutions. Like, the internet is a net good for society, but it also brought new forms of badness with it. It makes everything faster, including the spread of bad ideas. Based on everything Solas says about the Veil (and the mythological parallels to Ragnarök, which is a rebirthing rather than final destruction) this seems to be the kind of chaos he’s anticipating. In fact, the internet is almost a direct parallel, because malicious spirits/gods can be thought of as bad ideas. No, he’s talking about far more than that. Remember his earlier conversation on the subject, about things like how the sudden ability to alter reality with a thought would devastate this world. That’s far more than just social upheaval. I want you to provide hard evidence for your claims rather than you just waving tho ha off to make Solas seem not as bad. The conversation that stands out to me is the banter chain Solas has with Varric. Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you? Solas: I've no idea what you mean. Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway? So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire. There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad. Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be. Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you. Varric: I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell. --- The reason they have such trouble relating is because Varric mourns the death of people, and Solas mourns the death of cultures, even if the people survive and develop something new. To be clear, I think Varric is right about this. But, because Solas sees cultural death in this way, he has a tendency to catastrophize. To him, if the removal of the Veil changes Thedosian cultures (but leaves individual Thedosians largely intact), that would be an apocalypse... even if the Varrics of the world would figure, “eh, it’s not that bad actually.” It’s the same mistake he made about Corypheus — he only sees the death of the old, and fails to anticipate the rebirth into something new. So in short, I’m not saying he has the right idea about what’s good and bad. I’m saying that in this particular case, his double wrongness ends up cancelling itself out. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Feb 16, 2019 18:02:05 GMT
The people who died wouldn’t be brought back, but the people currently living could gain immortality. That’s no small thing, it would be like bringing modern medicine to a medieval civilization. Yeah the medieval power structures would be totally fucked by the (re)introduction of this “medicine”, but the existence of aging and disease is a source of unfathomable suffering. Solas is sitting here, in the post-apocalypse, with the “antibiotics” in his hands. Watching people suffer and die from completely preventable causes. I’m pretty sure most of us wouldn’t have even considered the potential for societal upheaval, we’d already be handing out the pills. Even if bringing back modern infrastructure/tech means bringing back all the unjust power structures of modern life, it’s worth it solely for the lives that would (eventually) improve with modern medicine. Ehhhhhhhh... I'm not convinced that 'immortality' (whatever that looks like in Thedas) is a good idea to begin with, and it's all very well to talk about what Solas could do, or what could happen, but that's not the same as what he will do and what will happen. Obviously I am not looking forward to dying (right now, anyway), most people aren't, but it's pretty easy for me to imagine negative consequences for a world where nobody ever dies (or rarely dies), but new people keep being born. I'm not remotely convinced that Solas is acting out of concern for the plight of the people of Thedas. Conversing with him reveals that he has pretty negative opinions of the races at large, including modern elves. I think he is motivated mostly (if not entirely) by self-interest. He considers himself above everyone, and wants to change the world back to one where he can enjoy the company of the select few people he considers to be his peers. I would frankly not be surprised to see him abandon his past ideals and ally with the remaining Evanuris in order to realize his ambitions.I think that's judging him too harshly. He's motivated by guilt, not elitism. His hubris manifests in that he thinks he's the only one who can fix things and he thinks he's got the only possible, viable solution. That pride is the major obstacle we have to overcome if we choose to change his mind.
Except none of the people alive would be given those pills because they’d all be killed off by him to make those pills for others. All in an attempt to cure a plague that he started. You’re ignoring the whole threat of his actions that he himself talks about, hence the whole stopping him either by showing him another way or killing him. So no, I would not be handing out genocide pills. When he’s talking about chaos, he’s talking about the societal upheaval part. Introducing anything new, even something good, always messes with existing institutions. He says burning in raw chaos. I don't think that's just societal upheaval. He's not forming a new political movement, he's altering the fabric of reality. Or re-altering it, technically.
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Somewhere, out there...
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Post by Artemis on Feb 16, 2019 18:48:38 GMT
The people who died wouldn’t be brought back, but the people currently living could gain immortality. That’s no small thing, it would be like bringing modern medicine to a medieval civilization. Yeah the medieval power structures would be totally fucked by the (re)introduction of this “medicine”, but the existence of aging and disease is a source of unfathomable suffering. Solas is sitting here, in the post-apocalypse, with the “antibiotics” in his hands. Watching people suffer and die from completely preventable causes. I’m pretty sure most of us wouldn’t have even considered the potential for societal upheaval, we’d already be handing out the pills. Even if bringing back modern infrastructure/tech means bringing back all the unjust power structures of modern life, it’s worth it solely for the lives that would (eventually) improve with modern medicine. [snip] Obviously I am not looking forward to dying (right now, anyway), most people aren't, but it's pretty easy for me to imagine negative consequences for a world where nobody ever dies (or rarely dies), but new people keep being born. [snip] Genophage? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Post by colfoley on Feb 16, 2019 18:48:39 GMT
No, he’s talking about far more than that. Remember his earlier conversation on the subject, about things like how the sudden ability to alter reality with a thought would devastate this world. That’s far more than just social upheaval. I want you to provide hard evidence for your claims rather than you just waving tho ha off to make Solas seem not as bad. The conversation that stands out to me is the banter chain Solas has with Varric. Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you? Solas: I've no idea what you mean. Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway? So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire. There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad. Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be. Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you. Varric: I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell. --- The reason they have such trouble relating is because Varric mourns the death of people, and Solas mourns the death of cultures, even if the people survive and develop something new. To be clear, I think Varric is right about this. But, because Solas sees cultural death in this way, he has a tendency to catastrophize. To him, if the removal of the Veil changes Thedosian cultures (but leaves individual Thedosians largely intact), that would be an apocalypse... even if the Varrics of the world would figure, “eh, it’s not that bad actually.” It’s the same mistake he made about Corypheus — he only sees the death of the old, and fails to anticipate the rebirth into something new. So in short, I’m not saying he has the right idea about what’s good and bad. I’m saying that in this particular case, his double wrongness ends up cancelling itself out. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) really interesting point and kind of emphasizes what he said in Tresspasser.
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Post by Artemis on Feb 16, 2019 18:50:34 GMT
No, he’s talking about far more than that. Remember his earlier conversation on the subject, about things like how the sudden ability to alter reality with a thought would devastate this world. That’s far more than just social upheaval. I want you to provide hard evidence for your claims rather than you just waving tho ha off to make Solas seem not as bad. The conversation that stands out to me is the banter chain Solas has with Varric. Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you? Solas: I've no idea what you mean. Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway? So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire. There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad. Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be. Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you. Varric: I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell. --- The reason they have such trouble relating is because Varric mourns the death of people, and Solas mourns the death of cultures, even if the people survive and develop something new. To be clear, I think Varric is right about this. But, because Solas sees cultural death in this way, he has a tendency to catastrophize. To him, if the removal of the Veil changes Thedosian cultures (but leaves individual Thedosians largely intact), that would be an apocalypse... even if the Varrics of the world would figure, “eh, it’s not that bad actually.” It’s the same mistake he made about Corypheus — he only sees the death of the old, and fails to anticipate the rebirth into something new. So in short, I’m not saying he has the right idea about what’s good and bad. I’m saying that in this particular case, his double wrongness ends up cancelling itself out. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/owHrEkYBxiMjyZZrMwOT.png) FYI I really like your reading of Solas (perfect example of why I love him wish he were romanceable; I just eat up these complex characters so hard). And lovin this philsophical discussion being had here ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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N3
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Posts: 644 Likes: 1,672
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Post by Frost on Feb 16, 2019 19:42:11 GMT
Ehhhhhhhh... I'm not convinced that 'immortality' (whatever that looks like in Thedas) is a good idea to begin with, and it's all very well to talk about what Solas could do, or what could happen, but that's not the same as what he will do and what will happen. Obviously I am not looking forward to dying (right now, anyway), most people aren't, but it's pretty easy for me to imagine negative consequences for a world where nobody ever dies (or rarely dies), but new people keep being born. I'm not remotely convinced that Solas is acting out of concern for the plight of the people of Thedas. Conversing with him reveals that he has pretty negative opinions of the races at large, including modern elves. I think he is motivated mostly (if not entirely) by self-interest. He considers himself above everyone, and wants to change the world back to one where he can enjoy the company of the select few people he considers to be his peers. I would frankly not be surprised to see him abandon his past ideals and ally with the remaining Evanuris in order to realize his ambitions.I think that's judging him too harshly. He's motivated by guilt, not elitism. His hubris manifests in that he thinks he's the only one who can fix things and he thinks he's got the only possible, viable solution. That pride is the major obstacle we have to overcome if we choose to change his mind.
This. I also don't think we have enough information at this point. Solas may think that when he created the veil he inadvertently caused people to be born without their spirits, or split from their spirits, or something similar (rather than them simply not being an advanced civilization).
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 16, 2019 21:15:53 GMT
I think that's judging him too harshly. He's motivated by guilt, not elitism. His hubris manifests in that he thinks he's the only one who can fix things and he thinks he's got the only possible, viable solution. That pride is the major obstacle we have to overcome if we choose to change his mind.
This. I also don't think we have enough information at this point. Solas may think that when he created the veil he inadvertently caused people to be born without their spirits, or split from their spirits, or something similar (rather than them simply not being an advanced civilization). I suppose it’s also possible that people are split from their spirits (or severely diminished in some other way) in their current states. Until we get more information about what the Veilless world is like, we don’t have much to compare to. For me, personally, the loss of immortality would be enough. IRL we make a lot of arguments about immortality not being that great, but that’s always struck me as slightly sour grapes. Ancient people thought it was natural and normal for tons of children to die before their first birthday. And more recently, people were convinced that better health outcomes would lead to an exponential population explosion that would outgrow the earth. But it turns out, healthier lives automatically balance out with much slower birth rates, and everything was... fine, actually. Better, in fact. Aging sucks, but we’re so used to it that we’ve just resigned ourselves to it. Like those ancient people who wouldn’t name their child until it survived that first window.
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N3
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Posts: 644 Likes: 1,672
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Frost on Feb 16, 2019 22:24:45 GMT
I suppose it’s also possible that people are split from their spirits (or severely diminished in some other way) in their current states. Until we get more information about what the Veilless world is like, we don’t have much to compare to. For me, personally, the loss of immortality would be enough. IRL we make a lot of arguments about immortality not being that great, but that’s always struck me as slightly sour grapes. Ancient people thought it was natural and normal for tons of children to die before their first birthday. And more recently, people were convinced that better health outcomes would lead to an exponential population explosion that would outgrow the earth. But it turns out, healthier lives automatically balance out with much slower birth rates, and everything was... fine, actually. Better, in fact. Aging sucks, but we’re so used to it that we’ve just resigned ourselves to it. Like those ancient people who wouldn’t name their child until it survived that first window. Oh, IRL I would love to be immortal. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) As far as Solas I was wondering why he didn't (at least initially) seem to consider people to be real in their current state. He would think this just because they aren't immortal?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 16, 2019 23:00:07 GMT
I suppose it’s also possible that people are split from their spirits (or severely diminished in some other way) in their current states. Until we get more information about what the Veilless world is like, we don’t have much to compare to. For me, personally, the loss of immortality would be enough. IRL we make a lot of arguments about immortality not being that great, but that’s always struck me as slightly sour grapes. Ancient people thought it was natural and normal for tons of children to die before their first birthday. And more recently, people were convinced that better health outcomes would lead to an exponential population explosion that would outgrow the earth. But it turns out, healthier lives automatically balance out with much slower birth rates, and everything was... fine, actually. Better, in fact. Aging sucks, but we’re so used to it that we’ve just resigned ourselves to it. Like those ancient people who wouldn’t name their child until it survived that first window. Oh, IRL I would love to be immortal. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) As far as Solas I was wondering why he didn't (at least initially) seem to consider people to be real in their current state. He would think this just because they aren't immortal? I always thought it was more along the lines of 'they were sundered from the Fade'
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Feb 16, 2019 23:27:40 GMT
I suppose it’s also possible that people are split from their spirits (or severely diminished in some other way) in their current states. Until we get more information about what the Veilless world is like, we don’t have much to compare to. For me, personally, the loss of immortality would be enough. IRL we make a lot of arguments about immortality not being that great, but that’s always struck me as slightly sour grapes. Ancient people thought it was natural and normal for tons of children to die before their first birthday. And more recently, people were convinced that better health outcomes would lead to an exponential population explosion that would outgrow the earth. But it turns out, healthier lives automatically balance out with much slower birth rates, and everything was... fine, actually. Better, in fact. Aging sucks, but we’re so used to it that we’ve just resigned ourselves to it. Like those ancient people who wouldn’t name their child until it survived that first window. Oh, IRL I would love to be immortal. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) As far as Solas I was wondering why he didn't (at least initially) seem to consider people to be real in their current state. He would think this just because they aren't immortal? I'm not discounting the sundered from their spirits idea, but I thought that this reluctance was more based on Solas than anything about the people of Thedas. I've seen other people compare his situation to the one we face in future!Redcliffe in In Hushed Whispers. The Inquisitor's dialogue can treat the entire thing like its not "real". I think Dorian does it, too? And Leliana snaps and tells them off cus it was real enough to her, etc.
Like, what I'm saying is Solas woke up in a world vastly different than what he left, decided his course of action needed to be to tear it down, therefore no one could be allowed to be truly people. After all, they weren't exactly like those that came before, and he killed a bunch of people before, so these ones can't be people. He refused to accept the possibility and disassociated the concepts of "person" and "those shadows walking around in this post apocalypse landscape I made" in his mind to make it easier to do what he thought needed to be done. Its why he's visibly more upset in a friend convo in Trespasser than an enemy one. That particular justification/self deception has been shattered at that point if he made friends with you.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 16, 2019 23:43:01 GMT
Oh, IRL I would love to be immortal. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) As far as Solas I was wondering why he didn't (at least initially) seem to consider people to be real in their current state. He would think this just because they aren't immortal? I'm not discounting the sundered from their spirits idea, but I thought that this reluctance was more based on Solas than anything about the people of Thedas. I've seen other people compare his situation to the one we face in future!Redcliffe in In Hushed Whispers. The Inquisitor's dialogue can treat the entire thing like its not "real". I think Dorian does it, too? And Leliana snaps and tells them off cus it was real enough to her, etc.
Like, what I'm saying is Solas woke up in a world vastly different than what he left, decided his course of action needed to be to tear it down, therefore no one could be allowed to be truly people. After all, they weren't exactly like those that came before, and he killed a bunch of people before, so these ones can't be people. He refused to accept the possibility and disassociated the concepts of "person" and "those shadows walking around in this post apocalypse landscape I made" in his mind to make it easier to do what he thought needed to be done. Its why he's visibly more upset in a friend convo in Trespasser than an enemy one. That particular justification/self deception has been shattered at that point if he made friends with you.
Well damn son. I never thought about it that way and the mirroring of the two ideas. Of course then I, as a player, never had any trouble and thought it was odd that theyd make the claim in the first place. But now i wonder if its intentional. Of course this makes Solas more horrible and not less if the lack of personhood is specifically in his head.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Feb 17, 2019 0:01:35 GMT
I'm not discounting the sundered from their spirits idea, but I thought that this reluctance was more based on Solas than anything about the people of Thedas. I've seen other people compare his situation to the one we face in future!Redcliffe in In Hushed Whispers. The Inquisitor's dialogue can treat the entire thing like its not "real". I think Dorian does it, too? And Leliana snaps and tells them off cus it was real enough to her, etc.
Like, what I'm saying is Solas woke up in a world vastly different than what he left, decided his course of action needed to be to tear it down, therefore no one could be allowed to be truly people. After all, they weren't exactly like those that came before, and he killed a bunch of people before, so these ones can't be people. He refused to accept the possibility and disassociated the concepts of "person" and "those shadows walking around in this post apocalypse landscape I made" in his mind to make it easier to do what he thought needed to be done. Its why he's visibly more upset in a friend convo in Trespasser than an enemy one. That particular justification/self deception has been shattered at that point if he made friends with you.
Well damn son. I never thought about it that way and the mirroring of the two ideas. Of course then I, as a player, never had any trouble and thought it was odd that theyd make the claim in the first place. But now i wonder if its intentional. Of course this makes Solas more horrible and not less if the lack of personhood is specifically in his head. Well if the analogy holds, then it *is* bad of him to do it, but I can also forgive it b/c anyone can end up doing it. See: Dorian and the Inquisitor from before.
Though Solas was more stubborn than them at it for various reasons. He'd made sure to sequester himself off from the world beyond what he needed to do for his plans. And the experiences he *did* have with modern people apparently didn't go all that well (likely the fault of both parties involved).
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 17, 2019 0:19:51 GMT
"I would have entered the fade, usng the mark you now bear. Then I would have torn down the veil. As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would of restored the world of my time...the world of the elves" - on his original plan
"I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die" - on what he intends to do now
"Because I am not a monster. If they must die, I would rather they die in comfort." - on why he disrupted the qun plot
If he doesn't mean that he's gonna kill people on mass then he is being profoundly overdramatic, and unless the Inquisitor believing that he's going to do something much more evil than he really is is a part of his plan, profoundly stupid.
Which, hey, I'm not eliminating as a possibility.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 17, 2019 2:09:29 GMT
Ehhhhhhhh... I'm not convinced that 'immortality' (whatever that looks like in Thedas) is a good idea to begin with, and it's all very well to talk about what Solas could do, or what could happen, but that's not the same as what he will do and what will happen. Obviously I am not looking forward to dying (right now, anyway), most people aren't, but it's pretty easy for me to imagine negative consequences for a world where nobody ever dies (or rarely dies), but new people keep being born. I'm not remotely convinced that Solas is acting out of concern for the plight of the people of Thedas. Conversing with him reveals that he has pretty negative opinions of the races at large, including modern elves. I think he is motivated mostly (if not entirely) by self-interest. He considers himself above everyone, and wants to change the world back to one where he can enjoy the company of the select few people he considers to be his peers. I would frankly not be surprised to see him abandon his past ideals and ally with the remaining Evanuris in order to realize his ambitions.I think that's judging him too harshly. He's motivated by guilt, not elitism. His hubris manifests in that he thinks he's the only one who can fix things and he thinks he's got the only possible, viable solution. That pride is the major obstacle we have to overcome if we choose to change his mind. The world doesn't need 'fixing', not the kind of fixing Solas intends, anyway. It's gotten by just fine without him. Pre-veil Thedas may have been PRETTIER, but he freely admits that it was awful for a lot of people, probably most of them. We can't know for sure, but I especially doubt that all elves were given access to immortality, I highly suspect that privilege was granted to only a few. If Solas gave a damn about how the world was going to turn out after the mess HE caused, he should have been there for it, instead of taking a 1000-year nap. A parent who abandons their child has no right to come back later and bitch about how they turned out. Solas is absolutely selfish. He continues to enjoy the privileges he stripped from the rest of the world (enormous magical power, access to the secrets of immortality, the eluvian network), and judges literally everyone for how they've rebuilt the world that he destroyed. Instead of helping elves with the oppression they face now, he's decided to reset the world back to a time when, surprise surprise, they were still oppressed. He's basically a racist grandpa who wants segregation back in schools.
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N4
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 17, 2019 2:44:59 GMT
Any plan for saving elves that involves killing most of the elves that currently exist is a shitty plan for saving elves. Like Sera says: "well, who's we?"
Now, it's possible Solas knows something we don't about the current state of Thedas and that the world as it exists is doomed anyway, probably by the Blights. In which case he needs to actually explain the problem and come up with a better plan for solving this that doesn't kill most people and put everyone left back at square one with slave-owning Evanuris in charge.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 17, 2019 3:01:50 GMT
he is being profoundly overdramatic Solas? Overdramatic? Nahhhh, seems impossible. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) He does make me wonder how much of Anders’ reception came from the change in VA. When people hear stuff in a soft, melodic voice, they have a much higher tolerance for... strong personalities.
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Post by Artemis on Feb 17, 2019 3:12:36 GMT
he is being profoundly overdramatic Solas? Overdramatic? Nahhhh, seems impossible. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/owHrEkYBxiMjyZZrMwOT.png) He does make me wonder how much of Anders’ reception came from the change in VA. When people hear stuff in a soft, melodic voice, they have a much higher tolerance for... strong personalities. Solas and Anders are so different though... plus a lot of anti-Anders sentiment came from scared straight boys who freaked out when Anders hit on them. Anders is just this guy, regular dude, really. Had a burning hatred for the Circles and a rebellious spirits which led him to run away from said Circle many, many times. Also had a very soft heart and devoted himself to healing... But then Justice entered the picture. Justice really corrupted Anders, so ultimately what happens isn't Anders anymore; it's "Janders," and it's hard to blame the kind man who was once Anders for what happens... Solas is a totally different being who has a wildly different perspective than any other character we've met. He's still very much an Other. We don't know what his intentions are. Anyway, I wouldn't say reception has been more for one than the other. Girls love Solas because they got to romance him and the romance was probably the most fucking heartwrenching ever written in a BW game, so it hit some feels. But tons of people hate Solas, really really hate him. (I think he's a great character so I find that hatred so weird lol) Anders also has tons of fans, though he's got male fans too since guys could also romance him. But trust me, if Solas had hit on male players and they took an approval hit when they turned him down, there would be non-stop anti-Solas bitching on this forum.
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