davkar
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by davkar on Jan 16, 2019 22:10:58 GMT
Not to want to speak for Hanako Ikezawa, but I've seen them show great love for the Josephine romance cus it doesn't actually show having sex. First of all, really? They seem to literally ignore every romance except Solas these days. Not that I'm bitter or anything... Anyway, yes, so much ignorance regarding asexuality, which isn't surprising since many ace people don't even realize their sexuality is a thing... we'll get there. In addition to Josephine, Solas' romance can also be interpreted as asexual, especially if you chose the green/diplomatic/nice dialogues. There is never any mention at all of sex. Now, keep in mind an ace person can still have sex. Of course some would absolutely refuse, so they would need a partner who is also ace or just willing to get their sexual urges out elsewhere. In any case, writing an asexual romance would be really easy, and as we've seen, BioWare have already unintentionally done it twice. It just involves the usual things a romance involves... lots of kissing, hugging, profession of feelings, etc. just no sex. As for ME ... I believe you can also turn down sex with Jaal? I'm not sure. There's no sex in the Reyes romance, but that's chiefly because it feels like the romance is just getting started. I feel like with Jaal they actually gave you that option... hmm. IMO an ace relationship shouldn't be the only option to take with a character... and I'm an ace person. Characters should be like Josephine, Solas, and possibly Jaal, wherein you can have an asexual yet very romantic relationshp with the character IF YOU CHOOSE, but if a player chooses, they can also have a sexual relationship. Asexuality is something people are still understanding, and I"m sure it's particularly confusing and weird to non-asexual people. To me it's not about representation, but about offering every reasonable option to the player. That's why I'm in favor of making all romances bisexual (gay and straight characters can exist elsewhere within the narrative for representation's sake). I freely support and encourage giving the player the ability to declare their sexuality, too. I don't think we have yet had an option to say we only prefer men or women, and we certainly haven't had the chance to say we prefer not to have sex. It's a tricky business, because I'd hate to pick the latter option and have the character understandably turn me down. But then I'm also someone who very happily plays quite sexual characters, got no problem doing that. Thanks for the insight. So basically all they need to do is to add a "we won't bang...ok?" option too. I still don't get the mindset though. RL, not the game option. I mean initially it's reasonable but to still not have any desire after the relationship has been going on long enough/got to know the other/in love is weird indeed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 16, 2019 22:25:27 GMT
Thanks for the insight. So basically all they need to do is to add a "we won't bang...ok?" option too. I still don't get the mindset though. RL, not the game option. I mean initially it's reasonable but to still not have any desire after the relationship has been going on long enough/got to know the other/in love is weird indeed. Well, personally I wouldn't want it as just an optional path since then it might not be seen as the character being ace but something else, like the character has just never felt that way about a person before or something.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 16, 2019 22:27:50 GMT
Artemis Jaal doesn't offer it. You saying no sex just skips the sex scene there, since the dialogue immediately after still suggests you and he had sex. The only ME option, not counting ambiguous, that lets you choose a non-sex route and respects that choice is Cora.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Jan 16, 2019 22:32:35 GMT
Back when we thought the game was coming out last year we did a lot of posting there. Though once the news stopped coming out about the game, the devs also went radio silent so I sort of forgot that the game existed for a while there. Also, there's more to be said about our time on that board-but that's another tale best told in pm if you are interested. Yep! thanks to us they revealed the game will have gay options! I think it was some months after bi Jaal, the thirst for rpgs with lgbtq content was rrrrrrreal XDD I mean it never ends since it's the only way we can get some rep and be a gay protagonist at the moment (except three or four isolated cases) as much as I'm happy about Spiders for the moment, I totally recommend to not give preorder money 'til you guys see the content though, the cynical way is the only way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 17, 2019 0:16:12 GMT
Back when we thought the game was coming out last year we did a lot of posting there. Though once the news stopped coming out about the game, the devs also went radio silent so I sort of forgot that the game existed for a while there. Also, there's more to be said about our time on that board-but that's another tale best told in pm if you are interested. Yep! thanks to us they revealed the game will have gay options! I think it was some months after bi Jaal, the thirst for rpgs with lgbtq content was rrrrrrreal XDD I mean it never ends since it's the only way we can get some rep and be a gay protagonist at the moment (except three or four isolated cases) as much as I'm happy about Spiders for the moment, I totally recommend to not give preorder money 'til you guys see the content though, the cynical way is the only way. Especially after what happened with the last game that promised it.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jan 17, 2019 1:17:35 GMT
I love romance stories. I just feel like putting that out there.
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Post by Gwydden on Jan 17, 2019 2:03:19 GMT
I love romance stories. I just feel like putting that out there. Interesting. If I may, some elaboration would be appreciated.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 17, 2019 4:04:56 GMT
I enjoy romance as a side-dish to a main plot full of action and adventure. Even when the romance in question is an LGBT one, the question of whether or not two people will get together is simply not a high enough stake to keep my interest for long. They need to be at least hunting down a mutual enemy or something.
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 17, 2019 7:31:39 GMT
FYI. In Trespasser Solas actually mentions specifically that he did "not want to lay with you under false pretenses". Of course you are not forced to pick the relevant dialogue, so you are free to assume he never would say it. Just thought I'd mention this since this very topic had been discussed  . |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 17, 2019 7:53:18 GMT
FYI. In Trespasser Solas actually mentions specifically that he did "not want to lay with you under false pretenses". Of course you are not forced to pick the relevant dialogue, so you are free to assume he never would say it. Just thought I'd mention this since this very topic had been discussed . Yeah, there are a few lines in his romance that run counter to it, like “getting you into bed is an enjoyable side benefit”. |
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 767 Likes: 1,562
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 17, 2019 7:56:09 GMT
FYI. In Trespasser Solas actually mentions specifically that he did "not want to lay with you under false pretenses". Of course you are not forced to pick the relevant dialogue, so you are free to assume he never would say it. Just thought I'd mention this since this very topic had been discussed  . Yeah, there are a few lines in his romance that run counter to it, like “getting you into bed is an enjoyable side benefit”. I never took that as a "we're already doing it", but rather as jokingly wishful thinking.
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davkar
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 581 Likes: 984
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by davkar on Jan 17, 2019 8:23:07 GMT
Thanks for the insight. So basically all they need to do is to add a "we won't bang...ok?" option too. I still don't get the mindset though. RL, not the game option. I mean initially it's reasonable but to still not have any desire after the relationship has been going on long enough/got to know the other/in love is weird indeed. Well, personally I wouldn't want it as just an optional path since then it might not be seen as the character being ace but something else, like the character has just never felt that way about a person before or something. Yeah but from a developer standpoint it would be a waste of resources to create a LI with all the regular content except the sex. It's much easier to just add another line before the ftb and get the same result. Cass could have been easily turned into an ace romance if there was a dialogue choice before the act; "shall we read another?" (read another) or " shall we read another"? (proceed as planned). Then there's the technical stuff too. How do you trigger the romance flags with/as an ace? The characters can't 'see' the pc, so they don't have preferences (except maybe Solas and Cullen with the race-gating but that still doesn't account for the looks). Flirting is the only way to initiate the romance and those dialogues mostly ~sexual to some degree. How do you differentiate a "we should wait" and the "I love you but don't want you" from the ai character's pov while not make it sound like a rejection? A possible middle ground: the character is ace by default and it can be turned into a sexual romance with dialogue choices. It would be similar how most of 'bi' options work where their sexuality adjusts to the pc's gender.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 17, 2019 8:27:33 GMT
Well, personally I wouldn't want it as just an optional path since then it might not be seen as the character being ace but something else, like the character has just never felt that way about a person before or something. Yeah but from a developer standpoint it would be a waste of resources to create a LI with all the regular content except the sex. It's much easier to just add another line before the ftb and get the same result. Cass could have been easily turned into an ace romance if there was a dialogue choice before the act; "shall we read another?" (read another) or " shall we read another"? (proceed as planned). Then there's the technical stuff too. How do you trigger the romance flags with/as an ace? The characters can't 'see' the pc, so they don't have preferences (except maybe Solas and Cullen with the race-gating but that still doesn't account for the looks). Flirting is the only way to initiate the romance and those dialogues mostly ~sexual to some degree. How do you differentiate a "we should wait" and the "I love you but don't want you" from the ai character's pov while not make it sound like a rejection? A possible middle ground: the character is ace by default and it can be turned into a sexual romance with dialogue choices. It would be similar how most of 'bi' options work where their sexuality adjusts to the pc's gender. I disagree that it would be a waste of resources. So do some of the developers. As for the flirts, well the flirts could be written to match the tone of the romance or BioWare could have flirt tone options. They’ve done both before. |
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cankiie
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 17, 2019 8:39:43 GMT
The characters can't 'see' the pc, so they don't have preferences Imagine creating a system, in which an NPC character can somewhat determine a PC's looks through codes created by the character creation. Say, a NPC character may have a preference towards people with a more "triangular" face shape, then the NPC would have a preference towards code 376094aa (not real numbers, btw  ) which would be the number assigned by the character creation for a slimmer jaw. Or a NPC who might have a preference towards bearded men (or women) assign that to the NPCs coding!  Now, this would give developers a lot of "fun" stuff to work on! And make everyone hate them even more so I would personally be impressed though.
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davkar
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 581 Likes: 984
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davkar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by davkar on Jan 17, 2019 9:58:11 GMT
Yeah but from a developer standpoint it would be a waste of resources to create a LI with all the regular content except the sex. It's much easier to just add another line before the ftb and get the same result. Cass could have been easily turned into an ace romance if there was a dialogue choice before the act; "shall we read another?" (read another) or " shall we read another"? (proceed as planned). Then there's the technical stuff too. How do you trigger the romance flags with/as an ace? The characters can't 'see' the pc, so they don't have preferences (except maybe Solas and Cullen with the race-gating but that still doesn't account for the looks). Flirting is the only way to initiate the romance and those dialogues mostly ~sexual to some degree. How do you differentiate a "we should wait" and the "I love you but don't want you" from the ai character's pov while not make it sound like a rejection? A possible middle ground: the character is ace by default and it can be turned into a sexual romance with dialogue choices. It would be similar how most of 'bi' options work where their sexuality adjusts to the pc's gender. I disagree that it would be a waste of resources. So do some of the developers. As for the flirts, well the flirts could be written to match the tone of the romance or BioWare could have flirt tone options. They’ve done both before. Let me rephrase that; an exclusive ace LI on top of the other straight, gay exclusive romances would be a waste when the same can be achieved just by adding a non-sex option. Let's not forget that these BW games aren't dating sims. 4 races, 4 VA, countless variations with sexuality, dialogue choices and now they should add flirting tones too? Nah. While the romances are popular, they are only just a fraction of the game. There are more important (again from a dev perspective) things like story, combat-, level design, optimization etc.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 17, 2019 13:42:54 GMT
FYI. In Trespasser Solas actually mentions specifically that he did "not want to lay with you under false pretenses". Of course you are not forced to pick the relevant dialogue, so you are free to assume he never would say it. Just thought I'd mention this since this very topic had been discussed . I always find the phrasing of that exchange to be a little awkward. It makes it sound like he’s explaining something that the Inquisitor would definitely already know. IDK, there’s a weirdly quantum vibe to it. The Inquisitor is upset about something, Solas responds as if the Inquisitor is upset about sex, but then basically says “we didn’t have any” which then raises the question of what exactly the Inquisitor was upset about in the first place, since it clearly wasn’t having sex, but Solas never addressed whatever the actual distress was about. And he would know it’s not about having sex, because he also knows they never had sex. So instead of sounding like he values informed consent (which was probably the intent), he sounds like he’s trying to gaslight Lavellan. |
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 17, 2019 15:40:30 GMT
If we look at it that way, I kinda feel like it's the opposite. Like you say, the Inquisitor should know this, so she shouldn't insinuate otherwise. In this case, Solas is purely defending himself. Also, I usually take it as an hurt Lavellan making a point, which Solas then takes too literal.
To be honest, I just think the writers thought it was a clever play on words. That and it would possibly make players feel less angry if they assumed they had slept with him and he then dumped them.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 17, 2019 16:07:11 GMT
If we look at it that way, I kinda feel like it's the opposite. Like you say, the Inquisitor should know this, so she shouldn't insinuate otherwise. In this case, Solas is purely defending himself. Also, I usually take it as an hurt Lavellan making a point, which Solas then takes too literal. Yeah, as far as Lavellan’s meaning, I would have never connected it to sex if Solas hadn’t gone and made it weird. The original saying is just about being tricked, unless all the Dalish elves are waggling their eyebrows a lot more than I thought. Some trickster gods do have a raunchy reputation (lookin’ at you, Coyote), but nothing indicates that’s true for Fen’Harel. The baffling part to me is how Solas connects it to sex if they’ve never actually had any. Why would he even need to defend himself from that insinuation? It’s not like anyone else is even present — everyone there knows the situation. Except the player, of course, but Solas doesn’t know we’re there... unless the Fade is way more powerful than it’s been portrayed so far.  |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 17, 2019 16:19:19 GMT
I disagree that it would be a waste of resources. So do some of the developers. As for the flirts, well the flirts could be written to match the tone of the romance or BioWare could have flirt tone options. They’ve done both before. Let me rephrase that; an exclusive ace LI on top of the other straight, gay exclusive romances would be a waste when the same can be achieved just by adding a non-sex option. Let's not forget that these BW games aren't dating sims. 4 races, 4 VA, countless variations with sexuality, dialogue choices and now they should add flirting tones too? Nah. While the romances are popular, they are only just a fraction of the game. There are more important (again from a dev perspective) things like story, combat-, level design, optimization etc. How would it be a waste? They’ve had extra romances outside the 2/2/2 before, for example Cullen and Solas in DAI. So having options among them and then having one who is explicitly not wouldn’t cost more resources. Really it would cost less than usual since sex scenes are expensive. As for the flirting, well they did it in MEA with a few of the flirts but that’s why I also said have the flirts fit the romance as another possibility. For example none of the flirts in Josephine’s romance are sexual in nature, while some in the more sexual romances are more raunchy. |
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Post by Artemis on Jan 17, 2019 16:30:15 GMT
FYI. In Trespasser Solas actually mentions specifically that he did "not want to lay with you under false pretenses". Of course you are not forced to pick the relevant dialogue, so you are free to assume he never would say it. Just thought I'd mention this since this very topic had been discussed . I always find the phrasing of that exchange to be a little awkward. It makes it sound like he’s explaining something that the Inquisitor would definitely already know. IDK, there’s a weirdly quantum vibe to it. The Inquisitor is upset about something, Solas responds as if the Inquisitor is upset about sex, but then basically says “we didn’t have any” which then raises the question of what exactly the Inquisitor was upset about in the first place, since it clearly wasn’t having sex, but Solas never addressed whatever the actual distress was about. And he would know it’s not about having sex, because he also knows they never had sex. So instead of sounding like he values informed consent (which was probably the intent), he sounds like he’s trying to gaslight Lavellan. I think it's classic thoughtless, bad writing on BioWare's part. PW backpedaled on it pretty quickly when fans expressed their consternation and said it could be interpreted either way. Either they were physically intimate or they weren't; it's up to the fans - at least according to him. They honestly just don't think about these things as deeply as we do, sadly.
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 767 Likes: 1,562
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 17, 2019 17:25:49 GMT
Yeah, as far as Lavellan’s meaning, I would have never connected it to sex if Solas hadn’t gone and made it weird. The original saying is just about being tricked, unless all the Dalish elves are waggling their eyebrows a lot more than I thought. Some trickster gods do have a raunchy reputation (lookin’ at you, Coyote), but nothing indicates that’s true for Fen’Harel. The baffling part to me is how Solas connects it to sex if they’ve never actually had any. Why would he even need to defend himself from that insinuation? It’s not like anyone else is even present — everyone there knows the situation. Except the player, of course, but Solas doesn’t know we’re there... unless the Fade is way more powerful than it’s been portrayed so far.  To "take" someone is slang for having sex with them. It's not an uncommon use of the word . Like I said, I think it was meant as wordplay as well as a way for the writers to make it clear that Solas didn't take advantage of Lavellan, in case any players felt that he might have. However, why Solas would bring the Dalish saying up anyway I cannot say.
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"No, no. Let's not and say we did."
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Jan 17, 2019 17:29:58 GMT
When I heard that "I would not lay with you under false pretenses." line for the first time, I assumed that he was trying to tell Lavellan what he felt was real and he did not pretend to love her.
I just looked at the scene again and it feels weird, huh. He says "I did not." before that line. Maybe it can be interpreted as he did not "take" her as the Dread Wolf? Like he was Solas when he was with Lavellan? I don't know but it always looked like that line has two meanings IMO.
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Post by Artemis on Jan 17, 2019 17:59:11 GMT
When I heard that "I would not lay with you under false pretenses." line for the first time, I assumed that he was trying to tell Lavellan what he felt was real and he did not pretend to love her. I just looked at the scene again and it feels weird, huh. He says "I did not." before that line. Maybe it can be interpreted as he did not "take" her as the Dread Wolf? Like he was Solas when he was with Lavellan? I don't know but it always looked like that line has two meanings IMO. That's how I interpreted it. I was pretty emotional about it, really felt betrayed and upset because I had played it as an ace relationship, and hearing that in the DLC really devastated me. But then, as I said, PW confirmed that the line can be interpreted either way. So that's canon now.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 17, 2019 18:46:28 GMT
Yeah, as far as Lavellan’s meaning, I would have never connected it to sex if Solas hadn’t gone and made it weird. The original saying is just about being tricked, unless all the Dalish elves are waggling their eyebrows a lot more than I thought. Some trickster gods do have a raunchy reputation (lookin’ at you, Coyote), but nothing indicates that’s true for Fen’Harel. The baffling part to me is how Solas connects it to sex if they’ve never actually had any. Why would he even need to defend himself from that insinuation? It’s not like anyone else is even present — everyone there knows the situation. Except the player, of course, but Solas doesn’t know we’re there... unless the Fade is way more powerful than it’s been portrayed so far. To "take" someone is slang for having sex with them. It's not an uncommon use of the word . I recognize that, but in the context of the Dalish saying, it just wouldn’t have crossed my mind without Solas saying it. And then Lavellan says “and so he did”, which, if they both know they’ve never banged, would nip any double entendres in the bud. If they’ve never had sex, “and so he did” could only be meant in the sense of trickery, not sex. Now, if they had banged, then it could be a double entendre. So Lavellan’s line still leaves it open to interpretation. Where it becomes weird is Solas’ response. “I did not.” Well, he can’t be referring to trickery, because he doesn’t get to decide if Lavellan feels misled into liking him. But if he’s referring to sex, that means Lavellan’s statement was a double entendre... which means they did have sex? There’s no way to resolve both statements consistently with each other. Perhaps a better phrasing would be something like “And so he does.” (implying that it’s something he would do, if given enough time) followed by “But I didn’t.” (i.e. you think that’s something I would do, but I didn’t with you and that was on purpose). |
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
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Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 18, 2019 1:12:06 GMT
"I love you, but you have to die so I can revive some ancient Mage-Nazis. You know how it is."
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) which would be the number assigned by the character creation for a slimmer jaw.
