LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jan 7, 2019 21:28:30 GMT
I don't have any investment in changing a character's sexuality, but comparing bi mods or suggestions to make characters bi to real world conversion therapy is obtuse to the point of being insulting. These are not real people. Their sexuality is made up by a real person and changing it is just playing make believe another way. I don't really think it's a great narrative technique to change someone like Dorian or Cassandra in the canon, given it creates an inconsistency in the story telling. I don't really care if characters like Anders or Kaidan that were assumed straight are "changed" to give people more options. Comparing it to forcing a real person to change their sexuality is ridiculous. Everything about them is made up to create the best narrative for an audience. That's the point, they're imaginary, created for our entertainment. I didn't mean to be insulting
hell, I have an older brother who can get rather vocal about such subjects...and not in the right way (he can be rather anti at times due to copying behavior of other people who have those views)
I at least try to be open toward people's sexuality and their needs for change and such
I just wished to ask a question, and received an answer
if I insulted you or anyone else in this regard then I apologize for that was not my intent
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Jan 7, 2019 21:35:34 GMT
It's not gays/lesbians' fault that we dont have the same amount of options or quality regarding romance in games, we are gonna scratch for the content that is dear to our hearts and bi mods or headcanons have nothing to do or affect other people's experiences in their playthroughs at all. We have been starving for content since media is a thing. The balance is way too skewed for only one side to be claiming hetero-erasure (not saying that you are saying this but I have read a lot about this and even I've been accused lol) Said this, talking about my own case (my canon is Alistair with a male Amell that did the ultimate sacrifice) Gaider is totally ok with Alistair being bi, the only reason why he was not an option is for lack of money.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:37:34 GMT
I play on console, so bi mods aren't an option, but so far I've been lucky that my preferred option was usually bi or gay, anyway. If Alistair or Solas were bi, I'd do their romance, but I don't overall miss it since I strongly prefer Zev and Dorian. Cullen is a hard pass for me and so are most mass effect guys. I was happy with Kaidan becoming an option and wasn't interested in Garrus beyond a friend, or LOL Jacob. Thane's romance is kind of a wreck too, imo. The only one that I wish we got was Liam, because I think he'd have been my favorite in Andromeda. Not if they didn't murder the series and Reyes got an expanded/companion role, but with his limited content I'd rather pick Liam. It would be nice to have a light "best friends and lovers" romance.
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Post by ashaantha on Jan 7, 2019 21:41:12 GMT
bi mods aren't a problem at all, they're a choice. People can choose whether to change the characters for their game or not to, I'd be a hypocrite if I had a problem with modders, I mod the hell out of Skyrim xD . I only have two things I dislike games officially doing. Killing children in games, and this topic, but if people add either via mods I have no issue, it's not forced into my game, so go ahead! my dislike of it is based on personal history, so I just can't.. ugh... that's all.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Jan 7, 2019 21:42:24 GMT
I would say that I've been lucky since the only option I couldn't experience officially is Alistair. But I know people that were not that lucky sadly :/
Kaidan's mods were just something that they stole from us though, they should totally patch his romance if they remaster the trilogy. All the lines are even recorded.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:44:25 GMT
I don't have any investment in changing a character's sexuality, but comparing bi mods or suggestions to make characters bi to real world conversion therapy is obtuse to the point of being insulting. These are not real people. Their sexuality is made up by a real person and changing it is just playing make believe another way. I don't really think it's a great narrative technique to change someone like Dorian or Cassandra in the canon, given it creates an inconsistency in the story telling. I don't really care if characters like Anders or Kaidan that were assumed straight are "changed" to give people more options. Comparing it to forcing a real person to change their sexuality is ridiculous. Everything about them is made up to create the best narrative for an audience. That's the point, they're imaginary, created for our entertainment. I didn't mean to be insulting
hell, I have an older brother who can get rather vocal about such subjects...and not in the right way (he can be rather anti at times due to copying behavior of other people who have those views)
I at least try to be open toward people's sexuality and their needs for change and such
I just wished to ask a question, and received an answer
if I insulted you or anyone else in this regard then I apologize for that was not my intent
It's okay. Some people come in and make similar arguments in bad faith, so I probably came on stronger than warranted. I'm glad you're trying to see other perspectives and I hope your brother will too eventually. Sometimes it does just take being willing to let your guard down and have a good faith conversation with someone different than you, like you're doing now.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Jan 7, 2019 21:51:57 GMT
The only one that I wish we got was Liam, because I think he'd have been my favorite in Andromeda. Not if they didn't murder the series and Reyes got an expanded/companion role, but with his limited content I'd rather pick Liam. It would be nice to have a light "best friends and lovers" romance. bitch I thought you were a Jaal trash wtf
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TabithaTH
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Post by TabithaTH on Jan 7, 2019 21:54:15 GMT
Let's not forget some of the unintentional side-effects of the mods, like Cullen planting his face in the bosom of a qunari lady .
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jan 7, 2019 21:59:08 GMT
I didn't mean to be insulting
hell, I have an older brother who can get rather vocal about such subjects...and not in the right way (he can be rather anti at times due to copying behavior of other people who have those views)
I at least try to be open toward people's sexuality and their needs for change and such
I just wished to ask a question, and received an answer
if I insulted you or anyone else in this regard then I apologize for that was not my intent
It's okay. Some people come in and make similar arguments in bad faith, so I probably came on stronger than warranted. I'm glad you're trying to see other perspectives and I hope your brother will too eventually. Sometimes it does just take being willing to let your guard down and have a good faith conversation with someone different than you, like you're doing now. hm yes, like I said...my brother has had copying behavior since a very young age, sometimes it just depends on the people he hangs with (atm he has some good friends who keep him in line so here's hoping)
I myself struggled with my own sexuality for a while due to never having experienced a romantic relationship before, even wondered if maybe I might be a-sexual my mother reassured me that if that is the case, she'd love me no matter what sexual orientation I might have I imagined what if I have a child in the future who comes to me and says 'mom...I'm bi/gay etc.' then I wish to support that child in whatever way I can
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:59:26 GMT
The only one that I wish we got was Liam, because I think he'd have been my favorite in Andromeda. Not if they didn't murder the series and Reyes got an expanded/companion role, but with his limited content I'd rather pick Liam. It would be nice to have a light "best friends and lovers" romance. bitch I thought you were a Jaal trash wtf Lmao not really. I'm happy we got the romance and I think it's got a lot of what I like about Kaidan/Anders in there, but dhalion and I are confirmed Reyes trash. Sorry.
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Post by phoray on Jan 7, 2019 22:00:49 GMT
Let's not forget some of the unintentional side-effects of the mods, like Cullen planting his face in the bosom of a qunari lady . ya, that's another good reason not to use a mod... I like my romances to be animated correctly. Edit add: Re Reyes. so salty about Reyes.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Jan 7, 2019 22:05:06 GMT
bitch I thought you were a Jaal trash wtf Lmao not really. I'm happy we got the romance and I think it's got a lot of what I like about Kaidan/Anders in there, but dhalion and I are confirmed Reyes trash. Sorry.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2019 22:08:03 GMT
After reading a certain Assassin’s Creed Odyssey leak, it reminds me how thankful to be to BioWare for at least trying to represent various sexual orientations as well as strive to represent more. What was the leak? I was going to start Odyssey later today, so I might as well be prepared for disappointment. lol It seems that the upcoming DLC will involve the character starting a family, which means that it will force them to be at most bi or force characters to have sex with the opposite sex even if they aren't interested.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 7, 2019 22:10:44 GMT
The only one that I wish we got was Liam This plus "Reyes has just traces of content" were the biggest disappointments... I mean look at him So handsome... What was the leak? I was going to start Odyssey later today, so I might as well be prepared for disappointment. lol There's an achievement in the upcoming DLC titled "Growing Up: Start A Family". If it does mean a straight relationship, then I'll just ignore the DLC. So for now you can enjoy the game.
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Jan 7, 2019 22:17:47 GMT
After reading a certain Assassin’s Creed Odyssey leak, it reminds me how thankful to be to BioWare for at least trying to represent various sexual orientations as well as strive to represent more. Oh god. Hanako, you must tell me what you know. I think you are about to confirm my fear regarding that game. It concerns the Legacy of the First Blade DLC doesn't it? I freaking *knew* it. It's Darius's son/daughter isn't it....... The fact that his child changed gender to be the opposite of that of the player character isn't it..... Edit; I just saw your post. I am so sad right now.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 22:20:50 GMT
I guess we just won't buy that DLC. lol
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jan 7, 2019 22:23:24 GMT
So...I should probably explain a few things before people get a wrong idea I have hundreds of pieces of head canon, most of which switch and change hundreds of times as well heck, I have trouble even settling on a character to play most of the time (which probably says something about me as a person ) I've...also never had an actual relationship irl...not a romantic one anyway (due to various reasons...I find trusting people...a bit hard) games make me feel comfortable to explore such things safely, and due to my inexperience I tend to have various idealistic (and some not so idealistic) views about relationships -- speaking of fictional character feelings...I had a wonder (please don't feel attacked for those who like to play this way) but why is it alright for someone to change the sexual orientation of a fictional character to have them suit someone's needs, while it's frowned upon in real life? While I'm all for people having their ideal romance with a certain character, if a character is established as gay or hetero...is it okay to change them to bi-sexual just 'because I want to romance them''? ...typing this makes me realize I'm about to kick a hornet's nest in that regard...please forgive me
Okay, spoilered wall of text ahead:
It is definitely a hornet's nest for a lot of reasons. My personal feelings on the question have actual evolved over the years. They used to be pretty cut and dry. I thought it was a bad idea, and that it would be better to focus on what comes net, rather than retro-active representative (not in the sense that I could or should forbid people their freedom, but simply in they way I emotionally reacted). I no longer think it's quite so simple.
I've been playing Swtor a lot lately. I'll use that as an example. Most of the romances in that game are pretty strictly geared toward heterosexual content. I could list a lot of different instances, but I'll try to limit myself to the male bounty hunter class story for now. Here's a waifish tech-savvy girl who's on your team. If you are a male, and you develop high approval with her? Romance happens. Your character will probably grab her and kiss her at some point if you play anything close to a nice character, and possibly even if you don't (wanting vengeance for her murdered mentor nets approval with her). Wanted to play a character who isn't straight or even particularly romantic? Too bad, you're in a romance. Now few cases in the game do this to you, and it doesn't directly address your question, but what I'm driving at is that presumption regarding romantic interest is freaking everywhere in fiction, even in games that tend to offer slightly more options. A lot of existing romanceable characters have been written with these assumptions in mind, rather than a thoughtful and reflective approach toward the character's possible interests. There's another character in a different class story, Jaesa, that the writer's changed to bisexual in a later patch. I don't even think it was something there was a big push for, like with Jaal. It was just something they felt better about later on. Writing is often an imprecise art. It's totally possible for a writer to realize something about a character well after initially writing them.
I know I'm rambling. The reason for that is mostly because I know longer think there is a perfect, cut and dry answer for this issue. I think we're mostly better judging on a case by case basis, if we feel the need to judge at all.
But just...consider this. Imagine being a gay man, who has spent most of his life encountering the presumption that he must like women, seek after women, cherish attention from women. If he plays games, even these mostly repeatedly assume that any male character he plays engages with women in a very particular way. When, he finds one of these harmless fantasy outlets that at least is willing to recognize he might have interests elsewhere, there's still these coincidental moments that demonstrate a clear bias toward assuming feelings and attraction in his character that are actually foreign to him. We're not talking about just isolated incidents, we're talking about a whole environment littered with these false assumptions based on very little other than it's what most of the mainstream mindset expects.
I mean, really, how much estimation do we expect this person to have toward the sanctity of the stories that continuously do this? Or respect for the idea that meddling with fictional characters is some kind of sin, after all they've been treated to so little respect toward their interests in the same situation when you know, they themselves aren't fictional concepts but real people?
I don't know, perhaps I'm putting it clumsily, and perhaps I'm not even the best person to speak to this. For the record, I'm bisexual, and compared to the example I mentioned I've only rarely had issues with rpg games foisting feelings on my character that kind of insult me. I've just thought about it a lot, and as a result I have a lot of reflection to ramble on about.
[/spoiler] In closing, here's a tangential, semi-random video on a topic that I think can deepen the context for questions like this in general:
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jan 7, 2019 22:26:55 GMT
Stupid, fracking, uncooperative spoiler tag.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 7, 2019 22:27:41 GMT
Ugh. Well, that just knocked Assassin's Creed: Odyssey way down my list and maybe off of it. I was planning to play Kassandra as straight or bi anyway so that aspect doesn't affect me personally (although I think it's complete bullshit and I'm sorry it happened for the sake of others). However: I HATE it when games make my character get pregnant. Still not over the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition romance that forces that on you. If she's my character, I should be able to control whether she becomes a mother or not!
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Jan 7, 2019 22:32:55 GMT
I guess we just won't buy that DLC. lol I..... already bought the season pass......
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 22:35:19 GMT
It annoyed me that Fallout 4 made you have a dead wife and kid, but honestly this is even worse since you end up living the hetero life. At least in Fallout I can play a bi dude that settles down with a wholesome family consisting of a zombie drug addict, our robot son, cute doggo and British octorobo butler.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Jan 7, 2019 22:35:42 GMT
Ugh I hope they dont force you to be in a hetero relationship in ACO. I only know that I dodged a bullet not buying that game. Thankfully I'm the most cynical person on this side of spain lmao
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jan 7, 2019 22:36:07 GMT
Lady Artificehm, I see...thank you for this as I said in a different post, I didn't mean for it to be insulting I was just curious about people's opinions and worded it the wrong way
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Post by ashaantha on Jan 7, 2019 22:37:31 GMT
Ugh. Well, that just knocked Assassin's Creed: Odyssey way down my list and maybe off of it. I was planning to play Kassandra as straight or bi anyway so that aspect doesn't affect me personally (although I think it's complete bullshit and I'm sorry it happened for the sake of others). However: I HATE it when games make my character get pregnant. Still not over the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition romance that forces that on you. If she's my character, I should be able to control whether she becomes a mother or not! Is it possible you may be assuming something based on an achievement name (this is all people mentioned in this thread so I'm guessing it's all about just that)? I highly doubt even Ubisoft would force a pregnancy on a protagonist in game, even if they plan on using a descendant in a future story. Although Black Flag had the male protagonist leave his pregnant wife at the very start of the game though so... I dunno, wait and see what it actually means? I used to be one who panicked when reading spoilers but swtor numbed me to it after the past few years. i don't know anything about AC: Odyssey other then what I've read in this thread though.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2019 22:38:28 GMT
After reading a certain Assassin’s Creed Odyssey leak, it reminds me how thankful to be to BioWare for at least trying to represent various sexual orientations as well as strive to represent more. Oh god. Hanako, you must tell me what you know. I think you are about to confirm my fear regarding that game. It concerns the Legacy of the First Blade DLC doesn't it? I freaking *knew* it. It's Darius's son/daughter isn't it....... The fact that his child changed gender to be the opposite of that of the player character isn't it..... Edit; I just saw your post. I am so sad right now. I'm sad too.
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