Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 9, 2018 1:23:36 GMT
This thread is actually not going as quite as badly as I thought it would.
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Post by 10k on Dec 9, 2018 1:24:19 GMT
Well as being part of the "Anti-SJW brigade" I would hope that the character has more personality than just being trans. That was the issue with Krem and any other trans BW characters BW has done. Why can't the person just be a person Turns out SJWs ALSO want minority characters to be well-written, surprise surprise. I suspect the issue is less with the characters, but that you set the bar higher for them. Well it doesn't seem that way when they put so much emphasis on the character's identity. That's the key problem. I don't set the bar for "minority" characters any higher than "non-minority characters." I actually set them at the same standard. I don't care about the identity of a straight white dude, as much as I don't care about the identity of a trans character. When I speak to someone I don't expect to hear about how they identify or who they're having sex with. Example: when I first played Inquisition I thought Krem was a guy. There was no doubt in my mind he was a guy, I took what the game showed me at face value, and ran with it. I didn't think he was better or worse than any other character. My problem is, why couldn't it be left like that? No instead they wanted to give you an entire story about Krem being Trans. Sera is a lesbian; they didn't give me a entire story about her being lesbian. Bull is bisexual; they didn't given me an entire story about Bull being bisexual. Cassandra is straight, they didn't given be an entire story about her being straight. The most that would happen with these characters is if the player flirted with them, and the player wasn't what they prefered they would discuss the issue. It was natural; flirted with Sera as a guy, she tells you she isn't interested. The end. We Literally find out Krem was trans by him asking Bull if he needs help "Binding his man Bosoms" really? I wonder if that's how trans people start off conversations They are people like us all, no better or worse. And I would like it if trans characters were represented properly, as average people. Them being trans isn't special.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 9, 2018 1:24:33 GMT
Here's the "problem" with diverse characters, as I learned from some alt-righter on Tumblr whining about Steve Cortez: If a male character's story involves overcoming the death of his wife, then his story is about overcoming the death of his wife. If a female character's story involves overcoming the death of her husband, then her story is about overcoming the death of her husband. If a male character's story involves overcoming the death of his husband, then his story is about being gay. This is exactly what the people who whine about "SJWs" really think. They focus only on the diverse trait of the character, to the complete exclusion of everything else about them -- so they can then convince themselves that the creator is shoving that diverse trait down the viewer's throat. Which, of course, is a reflection of how such people really think of diverse people, in fiction or reality. Just look at the comments about Cora Harper in the first trailer she was shown in. A bunch of alt-right neanderthals spouted all kinds of homophobic trash based on her "lesbian" hairstyle. Said bigoted vitriol makes a lot of sense when you consider that the very same trailer showed Cora in a romance scene with MALE Ryder.These people are intolerant. That includes actively seeking to destroy anything that depicts characters with traits they consider "wrong." And gaming journalists have shown that they're perfectly happy to sabotage games to get that kind of person to click on their websites, right after pretending to wag their finger at bigots the previous second. Veronica
She is my second favorite companion in that game because she's actually pretty interesting. From her story, and perspective on everything from her group to the various factions and politics of the Mojave, and the fact that she only brought her sexuality in a conversation you initiate is appreciated, but then again Obsidian actually knows how to do quality companions. First has to go to Raul though, just has to. Danny T playing a ghoul cowboy is just the best thing ever
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 9, 2018 1:25:49 GMT
The way Steve Cortez was written was incredibly homophobic and Traynor wasn't much better. I played through the Cortez romance the week ME3 was released and not only was it terrible, it was clearly written by someone who thought that stereotypes like a dead husband and picking up men in clubs was appropriate for a gay male romance. Traynor was written by a man who thought voyeuristic shower scenes were appropriate for a lesbian romance.
It's boring and it's disrespectful. Bioware have a history of resorting to LGBT stereotypes and they're still doing it, like the trans woman in MEA revealing her deadname in 5 seconds. I'm willing to bet that these anti-SJWs aren't really anti-SJWs at all - they just have a problem with badly done representation being forced in their face. Literally no one has a problem with characters like Arcade and Veronica? Why? Because they act like actual people, not walking stereotypes.
Okay, so: 1. A dead wife isn't a cliche. 2. Gay men never go to clubs. (Also, I never realized the restaurant where Kaidan's romance with MaleShep can initiate is in fact a club.) 3. Miranda in bikini, cool. Shirtless Vega, cool. Even Cortez gets to bare it in the sex scene. But lesbians are entirely uninterested in the female body, what was BioWare thinking. 4. Arcade and Veronica's sexuality only exists in snippets of dialogue. If Arcade had a lover, you'd whine about it. Also, Arcade and Veronica really don't act like real people. Frankly, you could take any line from either of them and most people wouldn't know the speaker without context, because "knowledgeable snarker" is the entirety of their personalities.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2018 1:26:51 GMT
It isn't, it being a focal point on what is supposed to be a well written character, is however politics. A three dimensional person, is more then just whom they take to their bed. ...Or would you disagree? It's really not. Someone's sexuality, their gender, their race might well be a significant part of their identity - but that doesn't mean that's all they are. Bigots can't seem to see past that, though, for some reason. It's funny how the character traits that make people want to MURDER YOU somehow become the most significant. Ironically, if bigots had left us all alone from the start, we wouldn't have become the big obnoxious problem they incessantly whine about today. And reparative therapy would be reserved for people who put pineapple on pizza. As it should be.
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Post by bshep on Dec 9, 2018 1:30:03 GMT
This thread is actually not going as quite as badly as I thought it would. Give it two or three more pages...
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2018 1:31:08 GMT
The way Steve Cortez was written was incredibly homophobic and Traynor wasn't much better. I played through the Cortez romance the week ME3 was released and not only was it terrible, it was clearly written by someone who thought that stereotypes like a dead husband and picking up men in clubs was appropriate for a gay male romance. Traynor was written by a man who thought voyeuristic shower scenes were appropriate for a lesbian romance.
It's boring and it's disrespectful. Bioware have a history of resorting to LGBT stereotypes and they're still doing it, like the trans woman in MEA revealing her deadname in 5 seconds. I'm willing to bet that these anti-SJWs aren't really anti-SJWs at all - they just have a problem with badly done representation being forced in their face. Literally no one has a problem with characters like Arcade and Veronica? Why? Because they act like actual people, not walking stereotypes.
Okay, so: 1. A dead wife isn't a cliche. 2. Gay men never go to clubs. (Also, I never realized the restaurant where Kaidan's romance with MaleShep can initiate is in fact a club.) 3. Miranda in bikini, cool. Shirtless Vega, cool. Even Cortez gets to bare it in the sex scene. But lesbians are entirely uninterested in the female body, what was BioWare thinking. 4. Arcade and Veronica's sexuality only exists in snippets of dialogue. If Arcade had a lover, you'd whine about it. Also, Arcade and Veronica really don't act like real people. Frankly, you could take any line from either of them and most people wouldn't know the speaker without context, because "knowledgeable snarker" is the entirety of their personalities. You can't honestly say that Steve's romance and characterization is on par with the non-gay cast though. That's the true offensive part.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 9, 2018 1:32:26 GMT
It's really not. Someone's sexuality, their gender, their race might well be a significant part of their identity - but that doesn't mean that's all they are. Bigots can't seem to see past that, though, for some reason. It's funny how the character traits that make people want to MURDER YOU somehow become the most significant. Actually fair as I can tell, until DAI no one really had problems with homosexuality in mainstream Thedas, it was common enough to be a fetish catered to in a brothel in DAO. Not until Dorian brought up the Tveinter perspective did we actually run into something resembling what you discuss, but if you aren't discussing in game, then you are discussing outside politics, and the game is not meant to be a social commentary, that's my entire grievance with its inclusion to begin with.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 9, 2018 1:34:09 GMT
You can't honestly say that Steve's romance and characterization is on par with the non-gay cast though. That's the true offensive part. Cortez has about the same amount of story time as the other non-squadmate members of the Normandy. And, y'know, Kaidan and Liara. Who are squadmates.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 9, 2018 1:36:06 GMT
The way Steve Cortez was written was incredibly homophobic and Traynor wasn't much better. I played through the Cortez romance the week ME3 was released and not only was it terrible, it was clearly written by someone who thought that stereotypes like a dead husband and picking up men in clubs was appropriate for a gay male romance. Traynor was written by a man who thought voyeuristic shower scenes were appropriate for a lesbian romance.
It's boring and it's disrespectful. Bioware have a history of resorting to LGBT stereotypes and they're still doing it, like the trans woman in MEA revealing her deadname in 5 seconds. I'm willing to bet that these anti-SJWs aren't really anti-SJWs at all - they just have a problem with badly done representation being forced in their face. Literally no one has a problem with characters like Arcade and Veronica? Why? Because they act like actual people, not walking stereotypes.
Okay, so: 1. A dead wife isn't a cliche. 2. Gay men never go to clubs. (Also, I never realized the restaurant where Kaidan's romance with MaleShep can initiate is in fact a club.) 3. Miranda in bikini, cool. Shirtless Vega, cool. Even Cortez gets to bare it in the sex scene. But lesbians are entirely uninterested in the female body, what was BioWare thinking. 4. Arcade and Veronica's sexuality only exists in snippets of dialogue. If Arcade had a lover, you'd whine about it. Also, Arcade and Veronica really don't act like real people. Frankly, you could take any line from either of them and most people wouldn't know the speaker without context, because "knowledgeable snarker" is the entirety of their personalities. 1. I suggest you read few new books, its a common enough trope I'd label it cliche. 2. ...what? 3. ...what? 4. Assertions against another forum member's character and apparent bad taste.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Dec 9, 2018 1:36:56 GMT
You can't honestly say that Steve's romance and characterization is on par with the non-gay cast though. That's the true offensive part. Cortez has about the same amount of story time as the other non-squadmate members of the Normandy. And, y'know, Kaidan and Liara. Who are squadmates. The devs will do what they do. You'll just have to deal with it son.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2018 1:39:04 GMT
It's funny how the character traits that make people want to MURDER YOU somehow become the most significant. Actually fair as I can tell, until DAI no one really had problems with homosexuality in mainstream Thedas, it was common enough to be a fetish catered to in a brothel in DAO. Not until Dorian brought up the Tveinter perspective did we actually run into something resembling what you discuss, but if you aren't discussing in game, then you are discussing outside politics, and the game is not meant to be a social commentary, that's my entire grievance with its inclusion to begin with. That's such bullshit. I visit 4chan frequently and the DA threads, and despite everyone taking a shit on " Cisquisition " people are crying about ugly manface Cassandra, ugly tumblrbrat pigface Sera, boring combat, MMORPG fetch quests and Qun retcon. Dorian is often said to be a decent, if not great companion albeit his subpar story.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 9, 2018 1:40:22 GMT
Actually fair as I can tell, until DAI no one really had problems with homosexuality in mainstream Thedas, it was common enough to be a fetish catered to in a brothel in DAO. Not until Dorian brought up the Tveinter perspective did we actually run into something resembling what you discuss, but if you aren't discussing in game, then you are discussing outside politics, and the game is not meant to be a social commentary, that's my entire grievance with its inclusion to begin with. That's such bullshit. I suggest you learn to read.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 9, 2018 1:41:26 GMT
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Post by isaidlunch on Dec 9, 2018 1:42:39 GMT
The way Steve Cortez was written was incredibly homophobic and Traynor wasn't much better. I played through the Cortez romance the week ME3 was released and not only was it terrible, it was clearly written by someone who thought that stereotypes like a dead husband and picking up men in clubs was appropriate for a gay male romance. Traynor was written by a man who thought voyeuristic shower scenes were appropriate for a lesbian romance.
It's boring and it's disrespectful. Bioware have a history of resorting to LGBT stereotypes and they're still doing it, like the trans woman in MEA revealing her deadname in 5 seconds. I'm willing to bet that these anti-SJWs aren't really anti-SJWs at all - they just have a problem with badly done representation being forced in their face. Literally no one has a problem with characters like Arcade and Veronica? Why? Because they act like actual people, not walking stereotypes.
Okay, so: 1. A dead wife isn't a cliche. 2. Gay men never go to clubs. (Also, Kaidan gets wooed in a club.) 3. Miranda in bikini, cool. Shirtless Vega, cool. Even Cortez gets to bare it in the sex scene. But lesbians are entirely uninterested in the female body, what was BioWare thinking. 4. Arcade and Veronica's sexuality only exists in snippets of dialogue. If Arcade had a lover, you'd whine about it. Also, Arcade and Veronica really don't act like real people. Frankly, you could take any line from either of them and most people wouldn't know the speaker without context, because "knowledgeable snarker" is the entirety of their personalities.
1. Any dead spouse is a cliche, but straight characters tend to get a bigger list of cliches to work with. It's disappointing when a gay man appears and they have the same character arc you've seen from other gay male characters. Bioware have gone through almost all the main tropes - "I want a gayby" (Gil), "Daddy tried to convert me" (Dorian), "I have a dead husband" Cortez. Dorian at least has more to his character, but I really wish they'd write a gay character who just happens to be gay and NOT have development focused on his gayness.
2. The Kaidan scene is different. You are sitting down having lunch(?) and having a drink with him. Cortez's scene immediately reminds me of two gay men dancing in a gay club.
3. Traynor's sex scene is like a bad lesbian porno. Girl asks to borrow the shower, other girl interrupts and they start having sex. When you realize that it's written by a man then yes, the intent does come across as suspicious.
4. You could say the same about Dorian. Both Arcade and Veronica have backgrounds and they both have goals they want to achieve, like Dorian. They act like real people who have bigger problems than talking about how gay they are.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2018 1:42:50 GMT
I suggest you learn to read. No i won't whoooops soowwy
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2018 1:43:53 GMT
Hey can you take a chill pill please.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 9, 2018 1:45:30 GMT
I suggest you learn to read. No i won't whoooops soowwy No problem to me, its your issue that apparently has you raise a point on forum boards when I brought up in game relevant information. So yeah...
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Post by 10k on Dec 9, 2018 1:46:17 GMT
That's such bullshit. I visit 4chan frequently and the DA threads, and despite everyone taking a shit on " Cisquisition " people are crying about ugly manface Cassandra, ugly tumblrbrat pigface Sera, boring combat, MMORPG fetch quests and Qun retcon. Dorian is often said to be a decent, if not great companion albeit his subpar story. What is this Blasphemy?!!!! Okay I don't like BW romances, but cass is smexy. These have to be the same people who have an issue with bald Jack... she's smexy as well by the way... Edit: These people who talk shit about Cass, probably have bad taste in women.
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 9, 2018 1:46:36 GMT
So a dead wife for Thane is A-OK, but a dead husband for Steve is a travesty?
Forget the bigots. It often strikes me that the gay fans are the most unpleasable when it comes gay characters.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 9, 2018 1:49:47 GMT
Mae has a dead husband - hopefully that doesn't make her too tropey, as I'd like to romance her.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2018 1:50:46 GMT
No i won't whoooops soowwy No problem to me, its your issue that apparently has you raise a point on forum boards when I brought up in game relevant information. So yeah... Nevermind I'll take back my sowwy. How condescending can you be to find superiority in someone fucking up and then apologizing?
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 9, 2018 1:52:28 GMT
No problem to me, its your issue that apparently has you raise a point on forum boards when I brought up in game relevant information. So yeah... Nevermind I'll take back my sowwy. How condescending can you be to find superiority in someone fucking up and then apologizing? Ah, my mistake, I thought it was erm, less then sincere to its writing. My B homes
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Post by isaidlunch on Dec 9, 2018 1:53:37 GMT
So a dead wife for Thane is A-OK, but a dead husband for Steve is a travesty? Forget the bigots. It often strikes me that the gay fans are the most unpleasable when it comes gay characters. Just mix it up a little. That's all I want. They're doing well with the lesbian side of things - Traynor is much easier to accept when there are characters like Sera and Suvi that aren't so stereotypical.
I'll also point to Avitus as an example of "gay man with dead partner" done right.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2018 2:02:19 GMT
So a dead wife for Thane is A-OK, but a dead husband for Steve is a travesty? Forget the bigots. It often strikes me that the gay fans are the most unpleasable when it comes gay characters. That's because gay characters, note, gay, not bi, are often enough side characters who don't get the same importance in the plot as the straight and sometimes bi cast, and sometimes even less content too. It's hard to not be critical. And for BWs gay dudes, only Dorian breaks the mold, but then his characterization can be a but divisive for those of us who don't like gay soap opera. When we get a wider variety of gay characters, there'll be someone for everyone. Just because I'm gay, don't mean I'll love all things gay and be happy with getting crumbs.
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