The Loyal Nub
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All Wolfed Up With Dread
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by The Loyal Nub on May 3, 2024 12:19:33 GMT
Yeah. As someone who writes and wants to do it professionally and thus studies it a bit the best terms I've ever heard for this sort of thing is frontloading a story (planning it out beforehand) and backloading (just winging it) in terms of plot or what have you. And as with most things in fiction it does tend to be a little bit of a scale, no story is ever one hundred percent planned out all the way through and no sotry is ever winged either. Like for me, as far as the planning goes, in each one of the story ideas I've spent serious time working on I know how each one of the books begins and knows where they end and then I tend to fill in the blanks as I go along from A to B in the notes and plan. As far as BioWare is concerned I'd bet they lean more towards backloading instead of frontloading their stories, if only slightly. Yes, DA and ME are both stories that are fairly continious in compared to something like, say, the Elder Scrolls or Fallout...but we also know enough of the behind the scenes stuff to know that both Mass Effect and Dragon Age's story plans really have changed and run into hurdles through development. Like yes they do put some thought into a plan but it does not make it work out and they have to adapt. And on the lore front I have often wished they had given the Inquisitor more options and ways to expose Solas as Fen'Harel other then just a really random tressure hunt. Not sure if I would've entirely left it up to players to RP in the final conversation between the two but maybe something a little bit more based in role play. Like the war table perks you get for dialogue, or certain dialogue choices you picked, or maybe even attribute scores. Always felt cheap how they did it. I've self-published two novels so far and am working on a third and I can attest that this is true. I did outlines of the plots of both so that I had a general idea of the beginning and the end but it's always the in-between bits where sometimes things change. It is best to have a general road map for where you want to go but be ready to make adjustments to fit the plan.
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Post by Sartoz on May 3, 2024 12:25:32 GMT
In particular, the one that caught my attention here was the 7th one down, "OPEN WORLD." I think this might be the first I've seen anywhere about the game being open world, but I could be wrong. I know Joplin, the original version under Laidlaw, was going to have smaller area maps than DAI, and Morrison 1.0 was built on Anthem's code with the intent to be live service/multiplayer -- but idk if they've actually ever said anything about the map style before? Hmmm... I remember a person on Resetera claimed to have somehow known a bit about DAD and they said the game wasn't open world. Here is it.
But if DAD is suddenly open world, it better not be DAI style, with empty and unnecessary areas.
Open worlds are fine as long as it's populated with something worthwhile. Full of emptiness is just wasting my time. I mean, the ooohs and aaaahs from looking at awesome scenery is fine the first couple of times but after that? Unless the scenery is dynamically and procedurally generated.... But I doubt it. It's the FB engine after all.
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Post by Sandetiger on May 3, 2024 15:54:50 GMT
lol it appears that Damien Gerard was not supposed to put that up online in his resume, and the listing for DA:D and his character roles has been removed. My guess is that once it breached containment with fans noticing and talking about it, BioWare and/or EA reached out to Damien/his people and asked for that to be taken down. Whoops. Just 4 more days until the EA earnings call!
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by SwobyJ on May 3, 2024 16:34:13 GMT
Yeah. I don't exactly have sources in front of me for this handy but some of this has been discussed before as well so its fairly 'common knowledge' but on the subject of how much they might be planning this or not... I have heard from the devs, believe it might've been Darrah, how they tend to plan out their games two games in advance...at least at one point. This seems to track as the Lyrium Idol, a lot of the issues with the coming Qunari War, and the Dread Wolf were all fairly well established in DA 2. And Inquisition continued on with this by revealing who the Dreadwolf was and continuing to expand on the plot points from two while setting up Dreadwolf. Also as of late on his YouTube channel, repeatedly, Darrah has mentioned that part of the original plan for Dreadwolf was that it was going to be the first of three games, all of which would've been 'true sequels.' Which just my personal supposition but I suspect they ended up combining all three of these games into Dreadwolf which may be one of the reasons we are ending up with the Anderfels and Rivain as locations we will get to visit. Plus the chatter as well that Inquisition, in part, they weren't entirely able to tell the story that they wanted to in that game for various reasons, which kind of is the point that plans can fail... But the point is they should have a lot of story real estate that has been planned out. Yes, as with the above plans change and even with a specific plan you still have to execute said plan but given a lot of the marketing, the iconography, and imagery we have seen from things have stayed fairly consistent. They are sticking to 'the plan' that has been in the work for awhile, in the bold sense of the word, whatever else is going to happen. Just a feeling, but my feeling is that Dreadwolf is like that Season 3-4 of a show where the creative situation is precarious, the several season arc is far from guaranteed on the business side, so some kind of 'finale' happens now, while having plenty of seeds planted, or even actively sprouting for the future. I wouldn't have said this for Inquisition, for the record. To me, that game was more of the ~S3 to move things forward and in response to a disappointing ~S2, but there was no situation of needing to hugely resolve any big things. And really... I expect practically no OG developers and nearly none of the original designs of Dragon Age (Origins + early sequel story building) to make it past Dreadwolf. We'll be truly onto a next generation, so while I personally don't like this supposed dread wolf/Solas being so much of a (at least marketing) focus right now, if its a vehicle to get a lot of concepts out so that future developers can more readily embrace their newer approaches on them later, I'm all for that. I just hope that it doesn't turn out like many ~S5-7s in shows where everything meanders and just tries to prolong the necessary climax (in this case, Black City, finishing the Archdemons, etc). Get the appropriate stuff out so everyone is settled, then use those ~Gen Z devs to make their own 'Dragon Age'. Basically I don't see this game as the necessary end to 'Dragon Age' or even just its first major sense of an 'arc', but it may have more of a feeling of being the finale-if-need-be-and-Bioware-shifts-or-shuts-down. Everything may be set up in an 'arguably good enough' end, whether its Grey Warden material, the history of the elves, the world exploration, the political status of Thedas, the understanding of magic, dealing with Archdemons, etc etc. Not truly good enough, but yes, I get the impression of a compressed 2-3 games vague plan, rolled into one. Then things might pass to the next generation more fully (maybe not entirely; keeping as early writers as possible is preferable, so keep Weekes), as they can do 1-2 more non-Solas-fixated games to wrap this up while keeping Thedas as a setting to potentially use after the 2030s. The best outcome I can imagine is 2020s is this game, and a successful Mass Effect game that acts as better bridge between the old and new, while 2030s 'finishes' Dragon Age with 1-2 games, there's another 1-2 Mass Effect games to get rolling with a more new storyline, and Bioware manages a new, hugely better received 'live service' title that keeps the lights on much more easily between the single player campaigns.
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Post by SwobyJ on May 3, 2024 16:47:30 GMT
I have heard from the devs, believe it might've been Darrah, how they tend to plan out their games two games in advance...at least at one point. This seems to track as the Lyrium Idol, a lot of the issues with the coming Qunari War, and the Dread Wolf were all fairly well established in DA 2. And Inquisition continued on with this by revealing who the Dreadwolf was and continuing to expand on the plot points from two while setting up Dreadwolf. This is not just true of the Dragon Age team. I once attended a writing class led by a man who had worked for a fair amount of time on a leading soap here in the U.K. He explained how they know where the overarching narrative is leading some six months in advance, so when writing the individual episodes they always had to bear in mind where they were heading in terms of character development, so they didn't have someone say something or act in a way that would totally contradict how their story would develop down the line. I found that quite an eye opener because I never imagined that much thought and planning went into a half hour episode of the soap. So, in terms of the main characters and where the story is headed, I would hope they are still following the blueprint that was established near the beginning of the process with DAO. The variations would come in how they get there. So the end point in the narrative would be the same but they may have decided to tell it differently along the way. As we frequently point out, there are so many clues about Solas in DAI in hindsight. Of course, it can depend on if you select the right options for conversation and investigating on line made me feel I missed out on a lot by always being his friend. Poke the Wolf sufficiently and he really let his guard down in some conversations. Even in game there were times when I would think, hold on that sounds odd but my Inquisitor was never allowed the same level of insight and enquiry as me. Then again, sometimes the reason I realised something sounded off was that I had played all three games and read the lore, which my PC hadn't, so I can understand why the writers found it expedient not to let our PC be too clever, particularly if something was going to be a big reveal further down the line. I also realise there are some authors who claim they don't know where their story is headed when they start the process and just let the narrative take them where it will. That is all very well in a series of novel but even then it can end up in a very unsatisfying conclusion. However, in a video game it would be a very dangerous path to tread, particularly when early episodes do have constant clues as to where it might lead, as straying too far from the originally imagined narrative is going to lead to immense disappointment in those who have traveled with them. That is not the same as individual sections of game lore where they have already altered and contradicted areas from what was claimed in earlier games. I do find the "unreliable in world narrator" excuse is wearing a bit thin but it is not narrative breaking in the same way as subverting expectations about where the story was originally headed. That is why when I say I will treat DA:D as a new game, that relates to the individual lore aspects but not the story I have been following from DAO. My impression is that Mass Effect devs didn't plan much for even the next game (a huge mistake for a trilogy, if true), but by the time of making DLC for each, they were in-progress about the next game. So ME1 DLC gave a bit more of a taste of how they came to make ME2 (dark underbelly incl. Batarians), ME2 DLC moved a few pieces to set up the war (Crucible slight hint, get Shepard to Earth, etc), ME3 DLC might have even had something with an 'ark' hint in the Citadel Archives. But they don't map out much at all. Even if there's grand concepts to bridge ME3 with the upcoming title, it'd be so vague as to only go as far as confirm 'we'd like to use X character again' or 'we need faction y to still be standing'. I'd be surprised if the devs cared much beyond that, as if they'd even still have their jobs several years or over a decade after? I think Dragon Age goes further though, I think they consider 2 games in the future like Mass Effect treated 1 game in the future, and I think they consider 1 game in the future like Mass Effect was only at while in the middle of DLC production. So I think a lot of the overall Dragon Age plotting is much more secure, its just that every game changes the approach, and that'll be more the case with DAD than ever, being a DECADE after the last game. That's a lot of turnover, and a lot of changed plans for sure. But they made DAO not expecting more to come (even if there was a general mapping of where they might like to go), so its really more about how much of DA2/DAI-time plans maintained for Dread Wolf, and how much was dropped or highly modified. Maybe I'm wrong, of course, but its at least how these series come across.
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Post by celestielf on May 3, 2024 20:56:39 GMT
My hope for DA4, story arc wise, is that it wraps up the Solas plotline and gives us some answers to certain lore questions. In that way, I see it more as a season 2 to DAI's season 1. I would not be happy if they tried to drag this particular plotline out past that. I'm sure there are plenty of other DA stories to tell and lore to delve into.
As for DA games after this, I agree that I'll be surprised if anyone from the old team sticks around for them. Without naming people, I've seen quite a few devs express frustration with the corporate stuff going on. I think the ones that remain just want to see this project through.
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Post by Sartoz on May 3, 2024 22:44:53 GMT
My hope for DA4, story arc wise, is that it wraps up the Solas plotline and gives us some answers to certain lore questions. In that way, I see it more as a season 2 to DAI's season 1. I would not be happy if they tried to drag this particular plotline out past that. I'm sure there are plenty of other DA stories to tell and lore to delve into. As for DA games after this, I agree that I'll be surprised if anyone from the old team sticks around for them. Without naming people, I've seen quite a few devs express frustration with the corporate stuff going on. I think the ones that remain just want to see this project through.
AI generated game stories will replace most human writers in a few years anyway. Sad but that's tech progress.
Some good news though. The US Copyright Office recently ruled that you can't copyright AI-generated images, writing, video .... etc. So, if game publishers want to maintain game copyrights, they may have to keep some human writers. It's an evolving situation. Next may be AI-generated patents.
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Post by colfoley on May 4, 2024 1:32:56 GMT
My hope for DA4, story arc wise, is that it wraps up the Solas plotline and gives us some answers to certain lore questions. In that way, I see it more as a season 2 to DAI's season 1. I would not be happy if they tried to drag this particular plotline out past that. I'm sure there are plenty of other DA stories to tell and lore to delve into. As for DA games after this, I agree that I'll be surprised if anyone from the old team sticks around for them. Without naming people, I've seen quite a few devs express frustration with the corporate stuff going on. I think the ones that remain just want to see this project through. The TV show analogy is a fairly good one, I've used it myself from time to time. The thing though is that for many shows tend to tell continious stories/ storylines throughout their seasons but also tend to wrap up certain plot points at the end of the season becuase you aren't gurannteed to get a second one. Same with Dragon Age. Sure the series has been relatively serialized, DAI was a sequel to DA 2 and 2 was at least a soft sequel to Origins. But each game was pretty self contained in terms of its main plot. Each game had a story to tell, a group of bad guys to defeat, and then went about telling it and defeating them. Then they had a few lingering issues they could've expanded upon, then introduced DLC which expanded on them and set up the next game's story arc and villains then the next game came along. Same thing worked with Inquisition where the season arc, season 3 of Dragon Age, was told and wrapped up and then we got like a little post season special showing off where they intend to go next. Dreadwolf likely will continue the pattern. Even if they are fairly certain its going to be the last game there is a lot of story threads dangling out there for them to just solve within one game and could easily be expanded for the future. Granted since I doubt we'll get DLC it will make the bridge maybe a little harder but, at the very least, I'd be really surprised if the Qunari or Executors gets a full tilt resolution. They will leave themselves at least a little bit of a tail in order to give them room if they/ someone else wants to continue the series later.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 4, 2024 7:16:02 GMT
Same thing worked with Inquisition where the season arc, season 3 of Dragon Age, was told and wrapped up and then we got like a little post season special showing off where they intend to go next. That is how it came across to me too. It is why I felt that Trespasser was more like an extended trailer for Dreadwolf than a tie-off to DAI as they claimed. I was perfectly happy leaving my Inquisitor standing on the balcony of Skyhold either alone or with their lover. Then we had the teaser in the epilogue showing who Solas really was and killing off Flemeth, which was a fairly big hint he was going to feature next game, but beyond that they could have taken the story anywhere they liked. However, Trespasser really committed them to the current narrative concerning him. Plus set up the whole Qunari invasion plot. Incidentally, I remember PW saying how originally when given Solas the character was imagined as far more obviously shifty and in keeping with his reputation as the Trickster, but PW wrote him as a more ambiguous and sympathetic character and then they decided to introduce the romance which was intended to increase the empathy for Solas even more. So that would be an example of how they originally envisaged the Dread Wolf one way (as evidenced by the stories about him) but this changed over time, including perhaps his motivations.
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Post by celestielf on May 4, 2024 16:13:29 GMT
My hope for DA4, story arc wise, is that it wraps up the Solas plotline and gives us some answers to certain lore questions. In that way, I see it more as a season 2 to DAI's season 1. I would not be happy if they tried to drag this particular plotline out past that. I'm sure there are plenty of other DA stories to tell and lore to delve into. As for DA games after this, I agree that I'll be surprised if anyone from the old team sticks around for them. Without naming people, I've seen quite a few devs express frustration with the corporate stuff going on. I think the ones that remain just want to see this project through.
AI generated game stories will replace most human writers in a few years anyway. Sad but that's tech progress.
Some good news though. The US Copyright Office recently ruled that you can't copyright AI-generated images, writing, video .... etc. So, if game publishers want to maintain game copyrights, they may have to keep some human writers. It's an evolving situation. Next may be AI-generated patents.
Yeah, a lot of game/movie/etc studios are being quite stupid when it comes to AI. As an attorney who studied IP law in school, I think there are huge amounts of copyright infringement going on with the genAI databases that *should* end up with some pretty heavy fees for the AI companies. But I'm not practicing in IP right now, so we will see. Certainly anything made with AI can't be copyrighted without significant creative input from a human. I think it's another tech bubble to some extent. As for game studios who are going to be making stuff with AI, I'm just not interested in that product. I like creative people to have jobs and be encouraged to keep creating; I love the human element in art; and I don't like the way AI stuff looks or reads. So if Bioware goes that route, I'll just spend my money and time elsewhere. Edit: To clarify, I'm fine with AI being used for tedious tasks like helping with facial animations or something, just not with genAI used to cut artists/writers from the process (while also profiting off unpaid work from what's used for the database).
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Post by githcheater on May 4, 2024 22:38:14 GMT
As for game studios who are going to be making stuff with AI, I'm just not interested in that product. I like creative people to have jobs and be encouraged to keep creating; I love the human element in art; and I don't like the way AI stuff looks or reads. So if Bioware goes that route, I'll just spend my money and time elsewhere. Edit: To clarify, I'm fine with AI being used for tedious tasks like helping with facial animations or something, just not with genAI used to cut artists/writers from the process (while also profiting off unpaid work from what's used for the database). I was just wondering why the songwriting quality of my favorite long toothed musicians (Queen, Rush, Heart, Joni Mitchell, Warren Zevon, Yes, & Chicago) "seemingly" decreased significantly after the first 6 to 10 albums or so ... I'm guessing that there is a reduction in creativity, and a been there done that type of attitude after a while. Similarly I assume AI won't have sufficient youthful creativity in the arts, and tend to have a staleness. OK ... I'm done talking through my lower orifice ... for now.
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Post by githcheater on May 5, 2024 18:43:17 GMT
Just bought ME Legendary Edition for $5.99 on Steam. Perhaps there are two or three BSNers who have not played ME yet who might be interested ...
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Post by Sartoz on May 5, 2024 21:09:16 GMT
Just bought ME Legendary Edition for $5.99 on Steam. Perhaps there are two or three BSNers who have not played ME yet who might be interested ...
Did same. I have all the ME games plus the LE now...
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Post by themikefest on May 5, 2024 21:51:30 GMT
Just bought ME Legendary Edition for $5.99 on Steam. Perhaps there are two or three BSNers who have not played ME yet who might be interested ... Just bought ME Legendary Edition for $5.99 on Steam. Perhaps there are two or three BSNers who have not played ME yet who might be interested ...
Did same. I have all the ME games plus the LE now...
Excellent. When you start playing, you can post your playthrough in this thread.
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Post by fairdragon on May 6, 2024 10:38:26 GMT
Snip This makes me happy and i hope i can play it. The story will be amazing as in every DA game.
Yes, No-News-Bio 's DA games have strong stories and deep characters. Though, Varric in DAI is written like a wet sock.
DA4 will contain some deep written characters and some will be so-so. Solas, for example, won't be a "deep char", imo, as I anticipate little interaction with him. Davrin as a companion will be well written. He's a Warden and a mystery. Varric in DA4 is a side show (my prediction) while Bellara as a love interest could be another "deep" char, ( though look at Cassandra in DAI ).
Our Qunari companion ought to be well written, She has a story to tell us. I'm unsure about the rest. Any ideas?
I agree. As for companions: - Harleyqun (50/50 chance of beeing good or trying to hard.) - Warden (not necessarily Davrin) will be well written (even if i am not sure, whether they can hold it up to the end.) - 1-2 elven (depends on the background). Not sure if they have good creative ideas on this.
- Zwerg (not sure what i think on this.) - A character that betrayal us. This will be 100 % well written. They has give us at least 3 good written characters like this. - the skull head (50/50 of beeing really good or to much comedy). I will not warm up easily to this character. I am not a fan of skeletons. - creative or fill the gap characters, it depends on the situation.
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Post by fairdragon on May 6, 2024 10:54:03 GMT
Just a feeling, but my feeling is that Dreadwolf is like that Season 3-4 of a show where the creative situation is precarious, the several season arc is far from guaranteed on the business side, so some kind of 'finale' happens now, while having plenty of seeds planted, or even actively sprouting for the future. I wouldn't have said this for Inquisition, for the record. To me, that game was more of the ~S3 to move things forward and in response to a disappointing ~S2, but there was no situation of needing to hugely resolve any big things. In a way DaD is Season 3. Because the story they plant in the beginning before EA intervention, was a story for one game. Now this is the 3rd game coming from this story. Inquistion was the idea. Da2 was EAs wish. A kind of Prequel to the idea of inquistion. DAI doesn't get to finish the story so we will get the end in DAD. But also start a new story in it.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on May 6, 2024 13:24:08 GMT
I'm incredibly confident that we'll get a Female Qunari and a Kal-Sharok Dwarf I was thinking a Imperial Templar dwarf too. Maybe that's Bellara?
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on May 6, 2024 13:59:54 GMT
I'm incredibly confident that we'll get a Female Qunari and a Kal-Sharok Dwarf I was thinking a Imperial Templar dwarf too. Maybe that's Bellara? I think it's very unlikely that we're getting two female dwarves, and since Lace Harding seems likely to be our carry-over companion this time around, I think that Bellara either IS the female Qunari or she's not a companion but an NPC.
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Post by Felya87 on May 6, 2024 14:40:58 GMT
I can see Harding being more of an Advisor than a full companion, if we stick with the "we need people Solas doesn't know". That may open up a place for another Dwarven companion.
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Post by Grog Muffins on May 6, 2024 14:49:10 GMT
I'm incredibly confident that we'll get a Female Qunari and a Kal-Sharok Dwarf I was thinking a Imperial Templar dwarf too. Maybe that's Bellara? I think it's very unlikely that we're getting two female dwarves, and since Lace Harding seems likely to be our carry-over companion this time around, I think that Bellara either IS the female Qunari or she's not a companion but an NPC. Bellara is likely a dwarf considering the "no, this is the good kind of rumble" line her actress had in the teaser video from a million years ago. I suppose it's not completely impossible for her to be Qunari but dwarf fits better imo. Whether she's a companion or NPC, I don't know. Hope she's a companion and is a Kal-Sharok dwarf to boot, I'm probably in the minority of people who don't really care that much about Harding.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on May 6, 2024 15:10:46 GMT
I have to agree with Grog, I wouldn't really care for Lace Harding either. I think support for Lace Harding is honestly quite overblown in the fandom. Ideally we would have two dwarf companions Male Kal-Sharok Dwarf (The gay romance option hopefully) Female Surface Dwarf who lives in Tevinter (Preferably bisexual)
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cuthbertbeckett
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on May 6, 2024 16:47:45 GMT
I can see Harding being more of an Advisor than a full companion, if we stick with the "we need people Solas doesn't know". That may open up a place for another Dwarven companion. And what´s Varric role than Harding isn´t a companion? Sorry guys like it or not someone from Inquisition (game and faction) will be joining the DAD party. Aka the typical crossover companion like Oghren, Anders / Justice and Varric before. I really don´t want Varric for a third time in a row so is there any many better candidate than Harding? She was no real romance in DAI, she lives in all world states and stays with Inquisition regardless.
Last but not least for our usual companion DAD discussion well i have to brink up Calpernia and Mae(varis).
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Post by celestielf on May 6, 2024 17:04:45 GMT
I mean, technically why can't we have two lady dwarf companions? We've been asking for them for a while now. Re: Harding, I could see her as either an advisor or companion. But she doesn't really count as a carryover companion because she wasn't a companion in DAI. She'd be more like Isabela, who was an npc in DAO and a companion in DA2. I still think the carryover companion for DA4 will be Dorian. I think Varric will be an advisor and/or something will happen to him.
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cuthbertbeckett
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on May 6, 2024 17:11:13 GMT
I mean, technically why can't we have two lady dwarf companions? We've been asking for them for a while now. No because Bioware focus way more on humans than the other races. If Dorian hadn´t a romance in DAI well no surprise he would be 100% returning as companion but he is a romance and Bioware won´t bring back previous romances as companions back. Harding is the next best option if they don´t choose Varric again.
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Post by eaglepursuit on May 6, 2024 17:31:13 GMT
I can see Harding being more of an Advisor than a full companion, if we stick with the "we need people Solas doesn't know". That may open up a place for another Dwarven companion. And what´s Varric role than Harding isn´t a companion? Sorry guys like it or not someone from Inquisition (game and faction) will be joining the DAD party. Aka the typical crossover companion like Oghren, Anders / Justice and Varric before. I really don´t want Varric for a third time in a row so is there any many better candidate than Harding? She was no real romance in DAI, she lives in all world states and stays with Inquisition regardless.
Last but not least for our usual companion DAD discussion well i have to brink up Calpernia and Mae(varis). Varric's role will be supporting topsoil
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