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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2024 22:03:18 GMT
I can more than understand people not liking the visual style for DAV. However, a phrase I've heard that I never understood (for those critical of the games looks) is the use of the term "generic" in describing the game. If you want to say its too flat, or too smooth, maybe even too cartoonish, I get it. But "generic" implies it's just standfare without standing out noticeably from other design styles. That doesn't - to me - seem to be the case. I would argue what's generic is continuing to use the more photo-realistic styles of most modern RPG's. I don't hate that style, mind you, and I think it's the safest/serviceable option for most people (visually speaking). Had DAV went with this art style, a sizable amount of its art design critiques would probably not exist. But it would then be another RPG using the generic photorealistic art style. I agree about DAVe not looking generic, but more realistic art style can still look interesting, tbh. I think it really depends more on the setting rather than art style itself. A fantasy game can look fairly unique even with photorealistic style because there is more room to get creative. I think what are we seeing is a sort of prejudice towards stylization, particularly in AAA games. On one hand it's a result of a lingering mindset that "cartoony" (stylized) is for kids (something even Disney embraced, given their insistence of remaking their acclaimed animated features into often soulless movies), but IMO in games this stems largely from the fact that a lot of earlier games employed style as a necessity - stylization was a mean of overcoming limitations on graphic front (we even see this argument deployed in this thread - the stylization of DAVe being supposedly a way to overcome technological limitations that stem from a game being online, and thus (supposedly) has to suffer visually in order to ensure good online play) As the gaming industry matured and computers became more advanced, one can see that - especially in AAA space - there's a rush towards realistic graphics as an attractive selling point, which also correlated with games maturing as a medium on other fronts, including storytelling, which began aiming at an older audience. Thus, an expectation was born. IMO at this point, realism in AAA gaming became something of a must, which is why DAVe can be confusing for some - "what? AAA game that isn't aiming towards hyperrealism, or only very light stylization? What's wrong with it??" And, well - nothing's wrong. While I agree that realistic games can still look nice, the thing about many modern AAA games is that the textures, the environments, the models... they all look nice, but thoise games often don't really have a distinct style they can call their own, like in case of movies that can be VERY distinct despite basically having to work with, well, lol - ultimate realism IMO it's becoming a problem - at this point we've seen so many realistic games it's having less and less of an impact on sales. Thus many studios are cranking up the graphics to 11, which not only bloats budgets, demands more and more work on graphics alone, but also demands stronger machines from people who want to play those games. It's kinda becoming ridiculous. So, I suspect that - regardless how DAVe fares - in near future we're going to see more games that will try and do their own thing, on the visual front.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Sept 30, 2024 22:05:26 GMT
Of note is that this is the first BioWare game for 12 years, since Dragon Age 2 in 2012 to not have a multiplayer. I loved the MPs. Played a crapton of all three (ME3, DAI, MEA). But if it's taking a single resource from the main campaign, I don't want it.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Sept 30, 2024 22:08:22 GMT
Our very own Bioware ninja poster Luke Barret was pulled from Joplin (og DA4, the "heist" singleplayer) to work on Andromeda. Hopefully some time after DATV drops, he can talk about the design philosophy of its combat and what influenced it. We'll see what they are comfortable with me divulging after launch but yes typically communication about things becomes more available the further from launch we get. As for timelines, We started DA4 in October of 2015 roughly. The entire team was moved to MEA for about 3-4 months to help it ship and I also spent all of 3 weeks helping out on Anthem. But otherwise I've been on some incarnation of DA4 for about 9 years now - pretty ready for it to release 😅.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 22:09:44 GMT
Our very own Bioware ninja poster Luke Barret was pulled from Joplin (og DA4, the "heist" singleplayer) to work on Andromeda. Hopefully some time after DATV drops, he can talk about the design philosophy of its combat and what influenced it. We'll see what they are comfortable with me divulging after launch but yes typically communication about things becomes more available the further from launch we get. As for timelines, We started DA4 in October of 2015 roughly. The entire team was moved to MEA for about 3-4 months to help it ship and I also spent all of 3 weeks helping out on Anthem. But otherwise I've been on some incarnation of DA4 for about 9 years now - pretty ready for it to release 😅. got a long vacation coming?
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Post by smilesja on Sept 30, 2024 22:11:17 GMT
I heard it described that Veilguard footage "looks like a Pixar film" and now I can't unsee that. ...The simularities are uncanny. It's really hard to take the critiques of the artstyle seriously when people constantly compare to PIXAR of all things. It feels that people are just trashing the game just to trash it.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 30, 2024 22:11:21 GMT
My issue is more that the art direction looks like it's worked on by different design teams, although I lack the terminology and expertise to accurately put those feelings into words. But best I can describe it as, I mostly like the character models, they have this painterly vibe to them that I dig, but then I compare them to the monster designs, or the background, and they all feel slightly different from each other. Contrast this with, say, Breath of the Wild, which uses cell shading and complements the character models with impressionist background art.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2024 22:18:29 GMT
It's not that "I don't see a problem" (???) is that you were trying to make a point about walking a thin line between realism and "toon-style" while illustrating that argument with an example of uncanny valley that has nothing to do with it.
That's the problem there. The facial animations that you find uncanny didn't aim at any stylization, they actually tried to be realistic (the GotG is a movie employing live actors, and for most of nits run Gamora is simply an actress in green makeup) - it's just that it was bad CG, with badness stemming from the fact that Disney demands a stupid amount of work, made fast, by overworked CG artists.
In fact, a sizeable chunk of the "uncanny valley" specimens isn't stemming at all from mixing realism with stylization (most art across ages, including a lot of modern western art, is exactly that), it's when people are actually aiming at realism, and mucking things up.
...eh, it seems to me that I gotta add "uncanny valley" to the list of concepts people tend to overuse, like "show don't tell" or "mary sue".
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 30, 2024 22:19:25 GMT
I've been on some incarnation of DA4 for about 9 years now - pretty ready for it to release 😅. I think we can all echo that we are ready... This version of the forum has been waiting 8 of those years.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 22:22:59 GMT
...eh, it seems to me that I gotta add "uncanny valley" to the list of concepts people tend to overuse, like "show don't tell" or "mary sue". a-freaking-men.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 30, 2024 22:25:14 GMT
Our very own Bioware ninja poster Luke Barret was pulled from Joplin (og DA4, the "heist" singleplayer) to work on Andromeda. Hopefully some time after DATV drops, he can talk about the design philosophy of its combat and what influenced it. We'll see what they are comfortable with me divulging after launch but yes typically communication about things becomes more available the further from launch we get. As for timelines, We started DA4 in October of 2015 roughly. The entire team was moved to MEA for about 3-4 months to help it ship and I also spent all of 3 weeks helping out on Anthem. But otherwise I've been on some incarnation of DA4 for about 9 years now - pretty ready for it to release 😅. Got any vacation time coming up after launch or will you be tied up with post-launch stuff?
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 22:28:20 GMT
Our very own Bioware ninja poster Luke Barret was pulled from Joplin (og DA4, the "heist" singleplayer) to work on Andromeda. Hopefully some time after DATV drops, he can talk about the design philosophy of its combat and what influenced it. We'll see what they are comfortable with me divulging after launch but yes typically communication about things becomes more available the further from launch we get. As for timelines, We started DA4 in October of 2015 roughly. The entire team was moved to MEA for about 3-4 months to help it ship and I also spent all of 3 weeks helping out on Anthem. But otherwise I've been on some incarnation of DA4 for about 9 years now - pretty ready for it to release 😅. Since you're here, i might as well ask. I understand if you can't answer my question, ofc. Are there any restrictions regarding what armor type different classes can equip? Can mage wear heavy armor, for example?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 30, 2024 22:29:42 GMT
We'll see what they are comfortable with me divulging after launch but yes typically communication about things becomes more available the further from launch we get. As for timelines, We started DA4 in October of 2015 roughly. The entire team was moved to MEA for about 3-4 months to help it ship and I also spent all of 3 weeks helping out on Anthem. But otherwise I've been on some incarnation of DA4 for about 9 years now - pretty ready for it to release 😅. Got any vacation time coming up after launch or will you be tied up with post-launch stuff? He's just going to use all of his free time to play Veilguard; let's be honest here.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 22:31:47 GMT
Got any vacation time coming up after launch or will you be tied up with post-launch stuff? He's just going to use all of his free time to play Veilguard; let's be honest here. he's been playing it for the last nine years I am sure he is sick of it by now. Honestly one of the main reasons I hesitate about ever getting into game design...or streaming.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2024 22:34:10 GMT
He's just going to use all of his free time to play Veilguard; let's be honest here. he's been playing it for the last nine years I am sure he is sick of it by now. Honestly one of the main reasons I hesitate about ever getting into game design...or streaming. Burnout is a real thing. With that said, a moment when creator published a thing and audience responds is a thing that can make it go away
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Post by flyingovertrout on Sept 30, 2024 22:35:04 GMT
Are there any restrictions regarding what armor type different classes can equip? Can mage wear heavy armor, for example? Me, a mage looking at that Mourn Watch 'aspirational' rogue armor
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 30, 2024 22:35:16 GMT
He's just going to use all of his free time to play Veilguard; let's be honest here. he's been playing it for the last nine years I am sure he is sick of it by now. Honestly one of the main reasons I hesitate about ever getting into game design...or streaming. In all seriousness, I'm sure that there are devs that play their games post release. It might not be for work reasons, but they're gamers too you know.
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 22:37:30 GMT
Are there any restrictions regarding what armor type different classes can equip? Can mage wear heavy armor, for example? Me, a mage looking at that Mourn Watch 'aspirational' rogue armor I need to clarify. I'm not talking about transmog. From what i understand as far as transmog goes you can use whatever armor you want. I ask if i can actually equip heavy armor as a mage.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Sept 30, 2024 22:44:00 GMT
It's not that "I don't see a problem" (???) is that you were trying to make a point about walking a thin line between realism and "toon-style" while illustrating that argument with an example of uncanny valley that has nothing to do with it. That's the problem there. The facial animations that you find uncanny didn't aim at any stylization, they actually tried to be realistic (the GotG is a movie employing live actors, and for most of nits run Gamora is simply an actress in green makeup) - it's just that it was bad CG, with badness stemming from the fact that Disney demands a stupid amount of work, made fast, by overworked CG artists. In fact, a sizeable chunk of the "uncanny valley" specimens isn't stemming at all from mixing realism with stylization (most art across ages, including a lot of modern western art, is exactly that), it's when people are actually aiming at realism, and mucking things up. ...eh, it seems to me that I gotta add "uncanny valley" to the list of concepts people tend to overuse, like "show don't tell" or "mary sue". k
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Sept 30, 2024 22:47:42 GMT
...The simularities are uncanny. It's really hard to take the critiques of the artstyle seriously when people constantly compare to PIXAR of all things. It feels that people are just trashing the game just to trash it. It is. People tend to conflate and generalize things like "Fortnite" and "Pixar" to describe anything that's stylized or less than ultra-realistic. It's not a fair assessment.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 30, 2024 22:53:41 GMT
It was an innocent observation, dear sourpuss. Snip It's such a bizarre mindset, especially considering that ALL Dragon Age games to date, including DAO, have been stylized and rather veering towards comic-ish.
So true. Take Bellara. Straight out of Disney.
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Post by IlidanDA on Sept 30, 2024 22:55:53 GMT
Have a nice day! Cover :
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Post by flyingovertrout on Sept 30, 2024 22:56:07 GMT
Serious Gamer Criticism glossary: -Fortnite -Mobile game -DEI -Modern audiences -Political -*scribbles in "Pixar"*
Edit: -*scribbles in "Disney"*
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 30, 2024 23:07:03 GMT
I almost feel like parts of the article are an early Schreier expose. Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic, but my reading between the lines is that the late pivot away from MP is probably why we can't control the party members and the party size is reduced. This also may be why Bioware has been touting the fact that the game has characters and that's what Bioware is focusing on. To me that was always a given since it's a Bioware game that's what they do. But that wouldn't be the devs point of view if they only started to focus on the characters three years ago and actually create a SP game. If DAV is successful, what I'm really curious about is how well-handled the next Mass Effect project is. DAV has seen multiple creative design changes, massive studio shakeups, and a pandemic that did a lot to hurt staff productivity. We know - presumably - that the next Mass Effect game is at least in pre-production. I'm curious what efforts they'll bring to the table if they have a more stable and concrete footing to work with. I think the biggest impediment facing the next Mass Effect game (barring creative vision issue again - God forbid) is how they handle the premise of the story post ME3.
Bet no more big tits, Mirandas or butts. Gotta go for the lowest denominator... Fair looking faces as the default char models... My wonder is how the CC will be programmed. Will Bio decide to remove the DA4 limitations? Allow for a gamut of body types?
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 30, 2024 23:10:45 GMT
I'm glad we've determined no big tits, Miranda (?), or butts = targeting lowest common denominator. Love me some high brow dragon age.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 30, 2024 23:16:00 GMT
I wouldn't even necessarily blame the party size on ME. Sure some desire exists to homogenize things but we are still talking two very different games and the controller layout is our biggest clue. Though there have been people blaming MP for influencing game design...well since ME 3 actually. DAI was especially weird though.
Busche mentioned they tried a party of four and give total party control to the player. From their viewpoint it didn't work. That is, the camera would not stay focused on the Rook properly. It's in one of the very early videos/Q&A sessions.
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