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Post by smilesja on Sept 30, 2024 19:49:57 GMT
Yea, one can tell, because the exact same crowd has turned against The Ghosts of Tsushima sequel for daring to have a female protagonist. Like, you can almost har the same criticisms, including some of them immediately saying that the game looks ugly! The first GoT game has some pretty atrociuos graphics considering it released in 2020 and not 2012. Funny how so many people didn't notice until now. Mainly because people were bent on using GoT as a vessel to slam TLOU part 2 because it won so many awards including game of the year.
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 19:56:28 GMT
Because plenty of MP games roll with a more comic-ish look? Compare TES mainline and ESO. Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. As for art style in SP vs MP games in general. While it's true that there are plenty of MP games that has stylized graphics, it's also true for SP games. I also want to point out that Matt Rhodes is DAVe's art director and art style for this game reminds me of his concept art a lot. But in the end of the day we might never know why Bioware made a decision to move away from DAI's more realistic art style to more stylized one. Maybe it is due to the game originally being MP, maybe it's not.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Sept 30, 2024 20:09:07 GMT
There are plenty of comments on Youtube and beyond calling Veilguard "woke and DEI" to the point where any little thing will be criticized as a sign of "wokeness" remember the CC fiasco? But what does any of that have to do with the art style? The general idea seems to be that, at some point DA4 was supposed to be this sort of live-service, Fortnite / Overwatch / Disney-whatever game, with a more cartoonish look - and that’s allegedly affected Veilguard’s art style, pivoting back to SP. I’ve also read somewhere that they had to reuse some of these assets, stuff that had already been made, which is why the art style seems inconsistent at times. I’ve not read or heard anything official about it, so take all of this with a grain of salt. If you ask me, it looks deliberate, that they really went for this art style, for better or for worse. It isn’t my favorite of the series, I’ve been honest about that, talked about it ad nauseam. Because the fact is, Veilguard is the closest to Uncanny Valley we’ve ever been. And even great quality Uncanny Valley, by default, it’s bizarre, bothersome to the eye. That’s what it does. Even with the mocap and the best facial animation out there, you’re still gonna be like “Eew, that looks weird” - and the facial animation might not be to blame. It’s the freakin’ Uncanny Valley effect. It’s all just sort of strange. But I’ve sort of embraced it. Going forward, with future games, I hope BioWare find their minds which they’ve seemingly lost re: the art style, go back to using a more heroic body type and other stuff like the crazy VFX especially on the now “magical” Rogues and Warriors, which is just insaaaane, Brittany (I’m glad I don’t normally play Rogues and Warriors, cuz oof)! Bananas. But whatever, who cares. What’s done is done. The game’s gonna be fn’ fantastic, and I can’t wait! 🙌
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 20:13:05 GMT
What's weird is unless you're the modern day COD games all games are stylized.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Sept 30, 2024 20:20:37 GMT
What's weird is unless you're the modern day COD games all games are stylized. DA even at its most realistic, has always been stylized, without problem. There’s different degrees of it - and it’s when you’re toeing the line between realistic and toon-stylized, it’s this weird sort of limbo area that’s dangerously close to Uncanny Valley. It’s always gonna look unnatural, no matter the quality.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 20:23:19 GMT
What's weird is unless you're the modern day COD games all games are stylized. DA even at its most realistic, has always been stylized, without problem. There’s different degrees of it - and it’s when you’re toeing the line between realistic and toon-stylized, it’s this weird sort of limbo area that’s dangerously close to Uncanny Valley. It’s always gonna look unnatural m, no matter the quality. I nominally agree with the point which is probably why there is such argument but this game just does not look cartoony to me lol.
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 20:23:50 GMT
Do we know if there are any restrictions to what armor type each class can equip? I know that mages can wear medium armor, but can they wear heavy armor?
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 20:27:19 GMT
DA even at its most realistic, has always been stylized, without problem. There’s different degrees of it - and it’s when you’re toeing the line between realistic and toon-stylized, it’s this weird sort of limbo area that’s dangerously close to Uncanny Valley. It’s always gonna look unnatural m, no matter the quality. I nominally agree with the point which is probably why there is such argument but this game just does not look cartoony to me lol. I agree with Ice-Quinn about Uncanny Valley, but yeah, the game doesn't look cartoony to me either. But as she said DAVe is this weird limbo for me, where it's neither realistic OR stylized enough, which creates Uncanny Valley effect. But i already got used to it.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2024 20:35:47 GMT
Because plenty of MP games roll with a more comic-ish look? Compare TES mainline and ESO. Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. As for art style in SP vs MP games in general. While it's true that there are plenty of MP games that has stylized graphics, it's also true for SP games. I also want to point out that Matt Rhodes is DAVe's art director and art style for this game reminds me of his concept art a lot. But in the end of the day we might never know why Bioware made a decision to move away from DAI's more realistic art style to more stylized one. Maybe it is due to the game originally being MP, maybe it's not. I'd say that it's particularly weird to theorize that DA's style is directed by its MP past because Bioware has been doing multiplayer games/games with multiplayer components since their inception. Besides, Anthem was their last game, and Inquisition had an MP component. In 2014 (same years ESO came out). And while those games didn't aim at full realism, they definitely look different to games like ESO. It's also true that anyone who's familiar with Matt Rhodes' artwork can easily see where DAVe's style is coming from, in a very significant part. The veteran concept artist, now lead, whose style shaped many things across different DA games and are now shaping DAVe... and some people are like 'oh, this looks like Fortnite/MMO/MP game!"
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2024 20:47:13 GMT
What's weird is unless you're the modern day COD games all games are stylized. DA even at its most realistic, has always been stylized, without problem. There’s different degrees of it - and it’s when you’re toeing the line between realistic and toon-stylized, it’s this weird sort of limbo area that’s dangerously close to Uncanny Valley. It’s always gonna look unnatural, no matter the quality. As an artist it's just weird to see people repeat this bizarre argument about stylization and uncanny valley, especially when the image illustrating it has nothing to do with toon-stylization - it's mostly an outcome of underpaid CG artists haphazardly coloring a real person's skin
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Post by bierkrug on Sept 30, 2024 20:47:35 GMT
Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. We're comparing 2006 tech to 2015 though. They were probably trying for less stylized with the characters. The face engine they used was apparently for sports games and was not a great choice for an RPG. Back in the day, at least in the German fandom, nobody complained about the potatoe faces, we were too much in awe over the pretty environments. The overall look since Morrowind seemed to aim for as realistic as the tech at the time allowed. Starfield is fairly close to realism and is probably giving a good idea in what direction TES6 will be going.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 20:49:27 GMT
Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. We're comparing 2006 tech to 2015 though. They were probably trying for less stylized with the characters. The face engine they used was apparently for sports games and was not a great choice for an RPG. Back in the day, at least in the German fandom, nobody complained about the potatoe faces, we were too much in awe over the pretty environments. The overall look since Morrowind seemed to aim for as realistic as the tech at the time allowed. Starfield is fairly close to realism and is probably giving a good idea in what direction TES6 will be going. Skyrim was plenty stylized even a little cartoony though.
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Post by biggydx on Sept 30, 2024 20:55:24 GMT
Because plenty of MP games roll with a more comic-ish look? Compare TES mainline and ESO. Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. As for art style in SP vs MP games in general. While it's true that there are plenty of MP games that has stylized graphics, it's also true for SP games. I also want to point out that Matt Rhodes is DAVe's art director and art style for this game reminds me of his concept art a lot. But in the end of the day we might never know why Bioware made a decision to move away from DAI's more realistic art style to more stylized one. Maybe it is due to the game originally being MP, maybe it's not. I can more than understand people not liking the visual style for DAV. However, a phrase I've heard that I never understood (for those critical of the games looks) is the use of the term "generic" in describing the game. If you want to say its too flat, or too smooth, maybe even too cartoonish, I get it. But "generic" implies it's just standfare without standing out noticeably from other design styles. That doesn't - to me - seem to be the case. I would argue what's generic is continuing to use the more photo-realistic styles of most modern RPG's. I don't hate that style, mind you, and I think it's the safest/serviceable option for most people (visually speaking). Had DAV went with this art style, a sizable amount of its art design critiques would probably not exist. But it would then be another RPG using the generic photorealistic art style.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2024 21:00:14 GMT
Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. We're comparing 2006 tech to 2015 though. They were probably trying for less stylized with the characters. The face engine they used was apparently for sports games and was not a great choice for an RPG. Back in the day, at least in the German fandom, nobody complained about the potatoe faces, we were too much in awe over the pretty environments. The overall look since Morrowind seemed to aim for as realistic as the tech at the time allowed. Starfield is fairly close to realism and is probably giving a good idea in what direction TES6 will be going. The thing with Starfield is that it looks unremarkable. I didn't play, but I also don't remember anything about it on the visual front. That's the problem with so many AAA games aiming at realism - nobody really remembers how they look. We're at a time when realistic graphics just stops being a selling point. Given the success of new styles in 3D animation that don't copy Disney/Pixar one can see exactly why some games would choose not blindly following trends and instead choosing to look more distinct. The stylized games have simply a much better chance to be memorable.
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 21:03:50 GMT
Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. We're comparing 2006 tech to 2015 though. They were probably trying for less stylized with the characters. The face engine they used was apparently for sports games and was not a great choice for an RPG. Back in the day, at least in the German fandom, nobody complained about the potatoe faces, we were too much in awe over the pretty environments. The overall look since Morrowind seemed to aim for as realistic as the tech at the time allowed. Starfield is fairly close to realism and is probably giving a good idea in what direction TES6 will be going. I'm not a game developer nor do i know anything about the reasons for Oblivion's art style, but i do know that there is at least one mod that makes characters look less like potatoes and more like actual human beings and it's not like it breaks the game. So i think at least to some degree it was a creative choice made by Bethesda. And again, Skyrim was stylized too. Starfield does look close to realism. But so did Anthem which was, you know, an online game.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 30, 2024 21:11:28 GMT
We can all agree the tarot card art is awesome though, right? Kala Elizabeth posted tarot art for difficulty options and factions:
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 21:15:44 GMT
We can all agree the tarot card art is awesome though, right? Kala Elizabeth posted tarot art for difficulty options and factions:
I love the tarot cards but i finds it strange that Bellara is the only companions that is used in difficulty options. And she's right next to Solas... BELLARA IS AN ANCIENT ELF CONFIRMED!!!!
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Post by Iakus on Sept 30, 2024 21:17:03 GMT
DA even at its most realistic, has always been stylized, without problem. There’s different degrees of it - and it’s when you’re toeing the line between realistic and toon-stylized, it’s this weird sort of limbo area that’s dangerously close to Uncanny Valley. It’s always gonna look unnatural m, no matter the quality. I nominally agree with the point which is probably why there is such argument but this game just does not look cartoony to me lol. I heard it described that Veilguard footage "looks like a Pixar film" and now I can't unsee that.
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Post by jennica on Sept 30, 2024 21:20:30 GMT
Bringing TES games into this discussion is such a weird choice considering that TESIV exists. Oblivion's art style was in no way more realistic than ESO's. Even Skyrim is stylized, though to a lesser degree. And previous TES games have such outdated graphics that it's pointless to bring them up. As for art style in SP vs MP games in general. While it's true that there are plenty of MP games that has stylized graphics, it's also true for SP games. I also want to point out that Matt Rhodes is DAVe's art director and art style for this game reminds me of his concept art a lot. But in the end of the day we might never know why Bioware made a decision to move away from DAI's more realistic art style to more stylized one. Maybe it is due to the game originally being MP, maybe it's not. I can more than understand people not liking the visual style for DAV. However, a phrase I've heard that I never understood (for those critical of the games looks) is the use of the term "generic" in describing the game. If you want to say its too flat, or too smooth, maybe even too cartoonish, I get it. But "generic" implies it's just standfare without standing out noticeably from other design styles. That doesn't - to me - seem to be the case. I would argue what's generic is continuing to use the more photo-realistic styles of most modern RPG's. I don't hate that style, mind you, and I think it's the safest/serviceable option for most people (visually speaking). Had DAV went with this art style, a sizable amount of its art design critiques would probably not exist. But it would then be another RPG using the generic photorealistic art style. I agree about DAVe not looking generic, but more realistic art style can still look interesting, tbh. I think it really depends more on the setting rather than art style itself. A fantasy game can look fairly unique even with photorealistic style because there is more room to get creative.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 30, 2024 21:22:50 GMT
I nominally agree with the point which is probably why there is such argument but this game just does not look cartoony to me lol. I heard it described that Veilguard footage "looks like a Pixar film" and now I can't unsee that. ...The simularities are uncanny.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Sept 30, 2024 21:41:44 GMT
Three years is plenty to design a game from grounds up. The whole of Inquisition was developed in 3 years. And the reason we have limited party and size limit reduced is because of Mass Effect. They're clearly aiming to make the games more alike, combat-wise. Like honestly, at this point blaming everything on MP, or looking at things in the game as some sort of relics of time when it was designed as MP, is becoming weird. According to an actual Schreier exposé (his first book Blood, Sweat, and Pixels iirc), DAI only really came together in its last year. The production on that was also a hot mess, probably much, much worse than on Morrison (DA4 with live service) and DATV, and probably almost equal to the shitshow development on Anthem. Our very own Bioware ninja poster Luke Barret was pulled from Joplin (og DA4, the "heist" singleplayer) to work on Andromeda. Hopefully some time after DATV drops, he can talk about the design philosophy of its combat and what influenced it. Anyway, me no like video game art design, therefore art design objectively bad (I compared it to drawings an expert drawer of humans made 50 years ago, so QED), and therefore bad art design needs to be "explained", ok Grumpy McButthurt? Stop enjoying things and find reasons to be mad at game that hasn't been released yet.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 30, 2024 21:42:41 GMT
Not sure Hrungr shared this, but in other kinda cool Dragon Age news, a drag queen wore vallaslin at a drag race in Canada:
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 30, 2024 21:50:30 GMT
Of note is that this is the first BioWare game for 12 years, since Dragon Age 2 in 2012 to not have a multiplayer.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 30, 2024 21:51:06 GMT
We can all agree the tarot card art is awesome though, right? Kala Elizabeth posted tarot art for difficulty options and factions:
I love the tarot cards but i finds it strange that Bellara is the only companions that is used in difficulty options. And she's right next to Solas... BELLARA IS AN ANCIENT ELF CONFIRMED!!!!
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Sept 30, 2024 21:58:15 GMT
As an artist it's just weird to see people repeat this bizarre argument about stylization and uncanny valley, especially when the image illustrating it has nothing to do with toon-stylization - it's mostly an outcome of underpaid CG artists haphazardly coloring a real person's skin [/quote] There are degrees and nuances to it, it's not black and white, one thing or the other. You don't like what's being said, that's fair, your prerogative. But the fact remains. And the picture was just to illustrate how Uncanny Valley can look unnatural. But I suppose you wouldn't see a problem there either. If this was just a woman painted in green, the facial animations wouldn't have been as grotesque as they were (see Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy). Whatever.
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