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Post by Hrungr on Jan 18, 2020 19:13:09 GMT
- David Gaider talked a bit about delays and crunch this morning. While not specifically calling BW out, it undoubtedly draws upon his time there.
David Gaider @davidgaider
I'd like to think that most gaming fans don't really want the people making their games to be bled dry for their amusement, and would be willing to wait longer for titles made on realistic and humane timelines.
I'm *probably* wrong, but I'd like to think that.
-later-
It’s really heartening to see so many people replying that they would, in fact, value dev health over ship date. Hopefully that’s a message that gets expressed to publishers more often... because, I assure you, their impression is the exact opposite.
One type of comment I feel I need to address, however:
“Devs should take as long as needed to make the game good.”
I do agree that it’s usually better, quality-wise, when a game is allowed to cook. That extra time, however, is NOT added so a dev can relax and work sane hours.
In my experience, if the release date has slipped it means an alarm bell is ringing. “All hands on deck!” Everyone will be crunching until that game goes out the door, because every system and schedule to that point has, well, failed.
So if you’re supportive of a release date slipping, I really hope you’re also factoring into that the idea that - until things change - for most devs a slipped release date means “the death march continues” and not “we can relax now”.
Game dev tends to fall under entertainment labour laws, which are a lot looser. Why? No idea.
As for unionization, that's ongoing... but a lot of people believe it's a privilege to work in games. Don't like it? Move on. Plenty to take your place.
IRON SKORPIQN GAMING @skorpiqniron
There has to be some kind of balance I suppose but again making games is art right? You have to suffer for your art. @id_AA_Carmack said as much on a @joerogan podcast and I have to agree. Do you love what you’re doing or don’t you?
David Gaider @davidgaider
Gotta love getting both of these attitudes in one tweet.
1. Artists must suffer to make art.
2. Loving your job means being exploited is OK.
Really makes being in game dev at all quite the catch-22, doesn't it? 😉
Desert Island Girl @ariadnesisland
Aren't games a little bit like dissertations--they have to be done, but there's always that ONE MORE THING you know just ought to go in there...
David Gaider @davidgaider
Oh, for sure. Scope creep is real, and that's why the team needs to be kept on task. A team can't have *unlimited* time, or the scope would expand infinitely.
That's not quite the same thing as a team being given a realistic schedule for what the scope currently is, however.
Another comment re: "Are game devs not aware of the research that says lots of crunch is actually detrimental to productivity?"
I'd venture that EVERY game dev is aware of that. I'd also venture that, if a team is crunching, being productive is not their #1 goal.
See, I've seen crunch be effective in limited bursts. Chasing down a short-term goal. Putting in "some extra time" to get a leg up on slipping deadlines can be okay, if it's for short periods.
Long-term crunch, though? The sort that entire dev teams go through for long periods?
Everything went sideways and now the date has to slip... which means someone had to go to someone's boss and explain why.
And they also need to explain WHAT they're going to do about it.
Because they can't do nothing, right? To that boss, time is money... which a slipped deadline means is officially being wasted. You can't go to that boss and say "we intend to proceed exactly as before".
No no, you say "we will work ourselves to the bone, so we use as little of that time as possible."
It's penance, basically. You slipped your date and now you have to actively show that you are working harder... if not necessarily smarter. Because harder is easier to demonstrate.
And why does this continue? Because of precedent. This team has proven it can create X content in Y days. That it almost killed itself to do so is irrelevant... the bar is there, and the next project schedule will be based on it.
That's how crunch becomes institutionalized.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 18, 2020 21:58:58 GMT
- David Gaider talked a bit about delays and crunch this morning. While not specifically calling BW out, it undoubtedly draws upon his time there.David Gaider @davidgaiderI'd like to think that most gaming fans don't really want the people making their games to be bled dry for their amusement, and would be willing to wait longer for titles made on realistic and humane timelines. I'm *probably* wrong, but I'd like to think that. -later- It’s really heartening to see so many people replying that they would, in fact, value dev health over ship date. Hopefully that’s a message that gets expressed to publishers more often... because, I assure you, their impression is the exact opposite. One type of comment I feel I need to address, however: “Devs should take as long as needed to make the game good.” I do agree that it’s usually better, quality-wise, when a game is allowed to cook. That extra time, however, is NOT added so a dev can relax and work sane hours. In my experience, if the release date has slipped it means an alarm bell is ringing. “All hands on deck!” Everyone will be crunching until that game goes out the door, because every system and schedule to that point has, well, failed. So if you’re supportive of a release date slipping, I really hope you’re also factoring into that the idea that - until things change - for most devs a slipped release date means “the death march continues” and not “we can relax now”. Game dev tends to fall under entertainment labour laws, which are a lot looser. Why? No idea. As for unionization, that's ongoing... but a lot of people believe it's a privilege to work in games. Don't like it? Move on. Plenty to take your place. IRON SKORPIQN GAMING @skorpiqnironThere has to be some kind of balance I suppose but again making games is art right? You have to suffer for your art. @id_AA_Carmack said as much on a @joerogan podcast and I have to agree. Do you love what you’re doing or don’t you? David Gaider @davidgaiderGotta love getting both of these attitudes in one tweet. 1. Artists must suffer to make art. 2. Loving your job means being exploited is OK. Really makes being in game dev at all quite the catch-22, doesn't it? 😉 Desert Island Girl @ariadnesislandAren't games a little bit like dissertations--they have to be done, but there's always that ONE MORE THING you know just ought to go in there... David Gaider @davidgaiderOh, for sure. Scope creep is real, and that's why the team needs to be kept on task. A team can't have *unlimited* time, or the scope would expand infinitely. That's not quite the same thing as a team being given a realistic schedule for what the scope currently is, however. Another comment re: "Are game devs not aware of the research that says lots of crunch is actually detrimental to productivity?" I'd venture that EVERY game dev is aware of that. I'd also venture that, if a team is crunching, being productive is not their #1 goal. See, I've seen crunch be effective in limited bursts. Chasing down a short-term goal. Putting in "some extra time" to get a leg up on slipping deadlines can be okay, if it's for short periods. Long-term crunch, though? The sort that entire dev teams go through for long periods? Everything went sideways and now the date has to slip... which means someone had to go to someone's boss and explain why. And they also need to explain WHAT they're going to do about it. Because they can't do nothing, right? To that boss, time is money... which a slipped deadline means is officially being wasted. You can't go to that boss and say "we intend to proceed exactly as before". No no, you say "we will work ourselves to the bone, so we use as little of that time as possible." It's penance, basically. You slipped your date and now you have to actively show that you are working harder... if not necessarily smarter. Because harder is easier to demonstrate. And why does this continue? Because of precedent. This team has proven it can create X content in Y days. That it almost killed itself to do so is irrelevant... the bar is there, and the next project schedule will be based on it. That's how crunch becomes institutionalized.
Thank you for the above. This info is awesome. We get a tiny peek at game development ...
Once again, thanks.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 18, 2020 22:08:15 GMT
Sooo...any ideas when we might hear an official crumb of something, anything? As we're still a long ways out from launch, I'm not really expecting anything this year on the game itself (outside our usual Dev tweets). But as MT said, we have the comic series and the upcoming book. And I'm holding onto a thread of hope we'll see some sort of spin-off game (likely from another studio) before DA4. I could see a Dev Diary type video popping up sometime for us to CSI over (maybe EA Play?). I don't expect any kind of proper trailer though until... probably The Game Awards 2021.
I'm wondering if DA4 is loosely based on the book. But, then, it means it's more of an aRPG (I hope) game.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 19, 2020 1:39:18 GMT
As we're still a long ways out from launch, I'm not really expecting anything this year on the game itself (outside our usual Dev tweets). But as MT said, we have the comic series and the upcoming book. And I'm holding onto a thread of hope we'll see some sort of spin-off game (likely from another studio) before DA4. I could see a Dev Diary type video popping up sometime for us to CSI over (maybe EA Play?). I don't expect any kind of proper trailer though until... probably The Game Awards 2021.
I'm wondering if DA4 is loosely based on the book. But, then, it means it's more of an aRPG (I hope) game. It'll be interesting to see if any of those story threads and characters (new monsters?) make their way in into the game, or if it's just meant to be its own self-contained thing.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 19, 2020 1:49:59 GMT
I'm wondering if DA4 is loosely based on the book. But, then, it means it's more of an aRPG (I hope) game. It'll be interesting to see if any of those story threads and characters (new monsters?) make their way in into the game, or if it's just meant to be its own self-contained thing. Well, this will be the actual game writers’ work right? So I’d hazard a guess that some elements will be references at least.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 19, 2020 2:04:48 GMT
- Continuing from the earlier discussion...
Jason Kiwami @kiwamijason
This is why, I believe, the concern shouldn't be if fans can wait. By all measures, we can. It's the capitalists up top who won't wait, who have no perspective beyond the bottom line. That's what has to change.
David Gaider @davidgaider
They patience of fans is one aspect, but - ultimately - you are correct. If a corporation/publisher believes that a dev team crunching will improve its RoI? Then that dev team is crunching.
Taylor ❄️ 🌌 🌲 @cyberpunknoire
Do you have any ideas of what kind of structural changes and expectation adjustments should be made to avoid this pattern? It seems really unstable to unsustainable even to me, a total outsider.
David Gaider @davidgaider
Probably the element of choice has to be removed from the owners. I doubt many companies will volunteer to be *less* profitable, for the sake of their employees.
Vault N7 @vault_n7
I don’t know why some companies tell you a release date before the game is fully playable? There are many bumps in the road till completion. So getting it playable, not pretty would be the right time, right? Plus crunch would be reduced if they set up a timeline for polish only?
David Gaider @davidgaider
That's part of marketing. You want to build up hype, and there's a whole checklist of things going up until release that a company wants done in an orderly fashion. Making the game is only half the battle, insofar as keeping dev studios going, I'm afraid. 😉
Ruby @ka0mau
I wonder if game devs have no choice to go to another company or search for another job. I once talked to a guy from square who changed the job after half a year, cause it was too much. But I guess it depends on the country you're living in and the contract with the company.
David Gaider @davidgaider
It might also mean moving to a new city. Not to mention, frankly, chances are good it’ll be the same elsewhere.
Donald McKay @donald_McKay
We used to call this "BS" velocity in my dev team. If you crunched to achieve a certain velocity, and it worked, then that was your team's new expectation. You would operate at BS velocity until something gives, and it always does eventually.
David Gaider @davidgaider
Yeah, true. I don't know why it was so impossible to start the next project and go "okay, we almost killed ourselves making that game in 200 days - maybe let's schedule 300 this time?"
It's like, heck no. 200 is now the *baseline*.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 19, 2020 4:13:28 GMT
IRON SKORPIQN GAMING @skorpiqnironThere has to be some kind of balance I suppose but again making games is art right? You have to suffer for your art. @id_AA_Carmack said as much on a @joerogan podcast and I have to agree. Do you love what you’re doing or don’t you? I have... a lot to say about such attitude, so instead I'll just comment it with appropriate GIF: 
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Post by melbella on Jan 19, 2020 6:14:34 GMT
It's like, heck no. 200 is now the *baseline*. Welcome to the new normal. Do more with less to meet a deadline, and suddenly that is the expectation. It's not just game dev with this problem and I wish they'd stop talking like it is.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 19, 2020 7:26:18 GMT
It's like, heck no. 200 is now the *baseline*. Welcome to the new normal. Do more with less to meet a deadline, and suddenly that is the expectation. It's not just game dev with this problem and I wish they'd stop talking like it is. Pretending like it's a one industry/one employer problem diverts away from discussion about bigger issues of systems we live in and what to do to correct course on a macro-scale.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 19, 2020 15:59:22 GMT
Hell, my industry (specialty academic publishing) worked like that twenty years ago. We'd crunch like hell to exceed Plan from mid-November until late-December, and then review and adjust. The idea was to exceed Plan by enough so we looked good to our corporate overlords at Thomson (now Thomson Reuters), but not by so much that next year's plan would be adjusted upwards.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jan 19, 2020 17:07:07 GMT
I'm in the public service, and we also get the "Do more with less" line from our bosses constantly, and have been for at least a decade.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 20, 2020 2:29:12 GMT
It's like, heck no. 200 is now the *baseline*. Welcome to the new normal. Do more with less to meet a deadline, and suddenly that is the expectation. It's not just game dev with this problem and I wish they'd stop talking like it is. It’s certainly worse in game dev than other areas of software dev. Crunch exists throughout the software industry, but non-game devs (currently) have a lot more power to leave. Building productivity apps or banking portals is no one’s “dream job”, so it’s psychologically easier to leave a specialization entirely. Instead of having to pick from only “companies that make xyz”, there are a lot more employers open to you. So most tech companies will try to limit crunch and, y’know, actually invest in planning their projects. If games are a dream job, the possible employer pool is limited to “companies that make games”. The employee has way less leverage. Acting (+ a lot of other creative fields) seems to have this problem too, the whole “dream job” concept is a fertile field for predators and exploitation. If an employer can get away with paying in dreams, they’re not going to offer any actual benefits. Other tech companies have tried to copy this model, e.g. all the mythologization around being a Googler. I see a lot of younger devs obsessed with going into FAANG companies. Resist that notion. They’re trying to pull the same shit the game companies did — “you’ve only Made It if you get hired by one of these 5 companies, don’t look at any of the others (or else our recruiters might have some competition).” |
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Post by biggydx on Jan 20, 2020 5:50:00 GMT
Vault N7 @vault_n7I don’t know why some companies tell you a release date before the game is fully playable? There are many bumps in the road till completion. So getting it playable, not pretty would be the right time, right? Plus crunch would be reduced if they set up a timeline for polish only? David Gaider @davidgaiderThat's part of marketing. You want to build up hype, and there's a whole checklist of things going up until release that a company wants done in an orderly fashion. Making the game is only half the battle, insofar as keeping dev studios going, I'm afraid. 😉 This is pretty interesting to think about. When you look at games developed by Rockstar, most of them aren't announced until only a few months before they're finally released. Even in those few months, games like RDR2 and GTAV were able to generate enough hype to get people excited for their release, and even force other publishers to shift the release schedules of their games. I will admit that, according to some sources, Rockstar still suffers from crunch to some degree. Another stark example is Apex Legends. That game basically had no trailers or hype material whatsoever, and ended up being a surprise hit. It would be nice if there were statistics showcasing how many copies of a game were sold over a given year or two, based on how long a duration of marketing was conducted prior to release.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 20, 2020 18:09:22 GMT
BioWare @biowareHeading into Monday like… #MondayMood 
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 21, 2020 1:26:19 GMT
David Gaider @davidgaider
Dammit. Here's the problem with declaring a fave: someone else inevitably comes along and reminds you of Black Sails or Killing Eve or the fact that Shoreh Aghdashloo exists and the idea you only get to have one fave really seems criminal. 😡
Side trivia note: did you know that, originally, we were in talks with Shoreh Aghdashloo to be the voice of Flemeth in DAO? But scheduling issues prevented it? Well, now you do.
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Post by azarhal on Jan 21, 2020 12:47:35 GMT
It's like, heck no. 200 is now the *baseline*. I'm pretty sure that's a random number, most games are announced well over 200 days before their initial release date with screenshots and concept arts. The real problem of software development is that upper management seems to come from production factories. They believe productivity is calculated based on how fast you output something, not how competently it was made in the time frame given. About 5 years ago at my workplace, the software director literally said: lets make better software with less bugs in less time! We barely had the time to do QA and testing with the deadline we had before he said that (QA did crazy overtime). Lets just say the sarcasm levels got pretty high in the office. It's different now though, our project managers were able to change the dude perception, worked on getting better estimates and got the upper management to accept pushing back deadlines and making it accepted by our clients.
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Post by Masque on Jan 21, 2020 19:32:54 GMT
David Gaider @davidgaiderDammit. Here's the problem with declaring a fave: someone else inevitably comes along and reminds you of Black Sails or Killing Eve or the fact that Shoreh Aghdashloo exists and the idea you only get to have one fave really seems criminal. 😡 Side trivia note: did you know that, originally, we were in talks with Shoreh Aghdashloo to be the voice of Flemeth in DAO? But scheduling issues prevented it? Well, now you do. While I'm sure Shohreh would have done an excellent job, I'm glad the role eventually went to Kate Mulgrew. Her portrayal of Flemeth is just so iconic and nuanced that it's hard to imagine anyone but her as the VA for our favorite witch/goddess/old hag.
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Post by river82 on Jan 21, 2020 21:48:42 GMT
It’s really heartening to see so many people replying that they would, in fact, value dev health over ship date. Hopefully that’s a message that gets expressed to publishers more often... because, I assure you, their impression is the exact opposite. OMG, it's almost like Publishers aren't gamers, have little interest in gaming, and have no clue what's being said on the ground in the gaming community. This couldn't have been made clearer when EA, for some weird arse reason, tried to cover up that Anthem was being delayed. Guys, we don't care much if Anthem is delayed, we care more that you're so deceptive you try and disguise that it's being delayed. We also care that you think we're complete morons. I read somewhere a while ago, can't remember where, developers discussing working under Publishers. How without Publishers it felt like they were gamers who could make neat things for gamers, but working under Publishers was like being back at school with the jocks who used to take their lunch money, except now they're working under them. The community also has little love for big Publishers.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 21, 2020 23:11:50 GMT
It’s really heartening to see so many people replying that they would, in fact, value dev health over ship date. Hopefully that’s a message that gets expressed to publishers more often... because, I assure you, their impression is the exact opposite. OMG, it's almost like Publishers aren't gamers, have little interest in gaming, and have no clue what's being said on the ground in the gaming community. This couldn't have been made clearer when EA, for some weird arse reason, tried to cover up that Anthem was being delayed. Guys, we don't care much if Anthem is delayed, we care more that you're so deceptive you try and disguise that it's being delayed. We also care that you think we're complete morons. I read somewhere a while ago, can't remember where, developers discussing working under Publishers. How without Publishers it felt like they were gamers who could make neat things for gamers, but working under Publishers was like being back at school with the jocks who used to take their lunch money, except now they're working under them. The community also has little love for big Publishers. Wasn't this whole discussion spurred by the news of delay of Cyberpunk 2077?
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Post by river82 on Jan 21, 2020 23:44:01 GMT
OMG, it's almost like Publishers aren't gamers, have little interest in gaming, and have no clue what's being said on the ground in the gaming community. This couldn't have been made clearer when EA, for some weird arse reason, tried to cover up that Anthem was being delayed. Guys, we don't care much if Anthem is delayed, we care more that you're so deceptive you try and disguise that it's being delayed. We also care that you think we're complete morons. I read somewhere a while ago, can't remember where, developers discussing working under Publishers. How without Publishers it felt like they were gamers who could make neat things for gamers, but working under Publishers was like being back at school with the jocks who used to take their lunch money, except now they're working under them. The community also has little love for big Publishers. Wasn't this whole discussion spurred by the news of delay of Cyberpunk 2077? Yeah and nobody really cares much. Not many really care that Cyberpunk is delayed, not many really care that the FFVII remake was delayed, although some find it amusing that its original delay happened to move it out of the Cyberpunk window then Cyberpunk got delayed soon after, (edit: got that mixed up with another game) and not many care that Dragon Age won't release till 2022. The idea that gamers care overly about delays is a myth, and if it's believed by the big Publishers as David is alluding to they are either a) out of touch or b ) using it as an excuse to enforce certain practices like long cycles of crunch. Gamers care more about the reasons behind delays than delays themselves.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2020 0:21:26 GMT
Wasn't this whole discussion spurred by the news of delay of Cyberpunk 2077? Yeah and nobody really cares much. Not many really care that Cyberpunk is delayed, not many really care that the FFVII remake was delayed, although some find it amusing that its original delay happened to move it out of the Cyberpunk window then Cyberpunk got delayed soon after, (edit: got that mixed up with another game) and not many care that Dragon Age won't release till 2022. The idea that gamers care overly about delays is a myth, and if it's believed by the big Publishers as David is alluding to they are either a) out of touch or b ) using it as an excuse to enforce certain practices like long cycles of crunch. Gamers care more about the reasons behind delays than delays themselves. My point is that... that wasn't really the point. David Gaider's original point is that when delays happen, people shouldn't get a false impression that this has been done to make things as good as they can be, but because usually there was some miscalculation or too many things don't work as they should and people are crunching even harder in order to fix stuff and prove to the upper management that the delay was worth it (thus - even more effort and crunch) instead of cruising along and delivering a much better experience for players of their game. Also, Gaider is pretty straightforward about this being a reality in most big studios, even if he himself bases on his experience in Bioware. We know it may not really be better in other places - in fact, it's pretty apparent at this point that this is the norm, even in studios that don't have reviled Publishers above their heads. We know quite a few devs complained about work ethic in Rockstar or CDPR, etc. After that Anthem article, some developers of CDPR have contacted Jason Schreier and (at least those who contacted him) basically said that working conditions as described in the article are so similar that one can swap "Anthem" with "Cyberpunk". I'll have to tell you that even not knowing the internal workings of the company, but knowing the realities of work and attitude in my country, this is exactly what happens - even if only because of societal pressure. We love our brightest stars and champions... so long as they stay on top. Insecurity on large societal scale is an awful thing. Also, as many people have pointed out, this is hardly an issue with game development, but in fact a lot of places with corporate structures and goals. This is why I maintain that - as much as better steps can be taken on smaller scale - things won't change much even if game companies ditch Publishers, live services or MTX or whatever other boogeyman people pick to put blame on. The problem is ultimately the enforcing of unsustainable constant growth.
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Post by river82 on Jan 22, 2020 0:28:54 GMT
David Gaider's original point is that when delays happen, people shouldn't get a false impression that this has been done to make things as good as they can be, but because usually there was some miscalculation or too many things don't work as they should and people are crunching even harder in order to fix stuff and prove to the upper management that the delay was worth it (thus - even more effort and crunch) instead of cruising along and delivering a much better experience for players of their game. No, David's original point was: I'd like to think that most gaming fans don't really want the people making their games to be bled dry for their amusement, and would be willing to wait longer for titles made on realistic and humane timelines.And he was surprised when he found out that many were. Which was the point I was originally commenting on. Also, Gaider is pretty straightforward about this being a reality in most big studios, even if he himself bases on his experience in Bioware. Never said it wasn't. things won't change much even if game companies ditch Publishers, live services or MTX or whatever other boogeyman people pick to put blame on. The problem is ultimately the enforcing of unsustainable constant growth. Considering indie gaming isn't about enforcing unsustainable constant growth, you are incorrect to say game publishers have nothing to do with the problem. Going to a game publisher to finance your game means you are now a part of the corporate industry which enforces that growth.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2020 1:00:43 GMT
David Gaider's original point is that when delays happen, people shouldn't get a false impression that this has been done to make things as good as they can be, but because usually there was some miscalculation or too many things don't work as they should and people are crunching even harder in order to fix stuff and prove to the upper management that the delay was worth it (thus - even more effort and crunch) instead of cruising along and delivering a much better experience for players of their game. No, David's original point was: I'd like to think that most gaming fans don't really want the people making their games to be bled dry for their amusement, and would be willing to wait longer for titles made on realistic and humane timelines.And he was surprised when he found out that many were. Which was the point I was originally commenting on. Also, Gaider is pretty straightforward about this being a reality in most big studios, even if he himself bases on his experience in Bioware. Never said it wasn't. things won't change much even if game companies ditch Publishers, live services or MTX or whatever other boogeyman people pick to put blame on. The problem is ultimately the enforcing of unsustainable constant growth. Considering indie gaming isn't about enforcing unsustainable constant growth, you are incorrect to say game publishers have nothing to do with the problem. Going to a game publisher to finance your game means you are now a part of the corporate industry which enforces that growth. Can you please point me to where I said that "publishers have nothing to do with the problem"? The fact thet they aren't THE problem doesn't mean that they aren't part of a problem - all I'm saying is that if one gets rid of a publisher (or live services or MTX or whatever) that doesn't necessarily gets rid of issues that force people to crunch or do more for less and so on. This is simply a problem bigger than whether game companies work for publishers or not, or in fact bigger than gaming industry overall, even if steps can be taken to mitigate some issues on some levels.
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Post by river82 on Jan 22, 2020 1:09:36 GMT
Can you please point me to where I said that "publishers have nothing to do with the problem"? The fact thet they aren't THE problem doesn't mean that they aren't part of a problem - all I'm saying is that if one gets rid of a publisher (or live services or MTX or whatever) that doesn't necessarily gets rid of issues that force people to crunch or do more for less and so on. This is simply a problem bigger than whether game companies work for publishers or not, or in fact bigger than gaming industry overall, even if steps can be taken to mitigate some issues on some levels. That is true, apologies. Anyway back to the point I was making initially. I was never talking about Publishers in that regard. I was using the Publishers belief that gamers do care overly about delays (again a part of David's original point when he asked gamers to try and make Publishers aware that we don't mind longer game development cycles if it means a better environment for devs) as an example of how Publishers are not part of the gaming community. They are corporate structures involved primarily in the business aspects of development and the idea that these Publishers would have any idea about the gaming community and what they do want, or anything about gaming at all for that matter, is largely a laughable concept. Gaider - It’s really heartening to see so many people replying that they would, in fact, value dev health over ship date. Hopefully that’s a message that gets expressed to publishers more often... because, I assure you, their impression is the exact opposite.Not surprising. Publisher's have no clue.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 22, 2020 20:15:16 GMT
Alain Baxter @alainbaxterAh yes, It's my birthday today. Unwrapping, re-building and searching for my PC took an hour. At least this year my keyboard was not in jello...  
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