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Post by Walter Black on Jun 12, 2024 1:42:51 GMT
In Thedas it apparently was. There are situations in life where there are only two crappy choices - not always, but there are. So: what would you do if a game didn't give you any other choice, like: either destroy a civilization, or KILL EVERYONE? I mean... I guess you could just switch off the game and refuse to make a choice. But in-story characters don't have such a luxury. And just refusing to make a choice for the sake of retaining moral purity, instead of saving what could be saved and facing the consequences... well, to me that's decidedly selfish. No, there are no situations in life where there are only two crappy options. Most Solas fans think the point of the Redeem path is going to be pounding that lesson into Solas’s head. Any game that forces a choice like that serves as a great example of shitty writing, trying to seem profound and prove a point when it’s anything but. And what exactly is Solas saving when everyone is dead? He saves nothing. But he sees himself as the one who gets to decide the fate of all. No matter how you spin that, that is selfish. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but DA was (and hopefully still will be) a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. You came into the series knowing this, we all did. As far as labelling the "sometimes there are no good Third Options, only the lesser of two evils" as objectively shitty writing, the reverse can also be true: "I don't care about this story's previously established lore, tone, character motivations and actual capabilities, believability or even basic logic. They owe us heroes who always win with zero negative side effects!"
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Post by themikefest on Jun 12, 2024 1:46:35 GMT
Oh, so since he will only kill say 90% of the population it’s fine? Also-this is the thing-wiping out cultures even without wiping out every person in it is still genocide. And that’s exactly what his actions will do. And he still made that choice by himself, without their consent. We know this. Just like now. He’s just as totalitarian as the Evanuris he says as pure evil, so why should he be considered any better? Guarantee they were thinking they were doing what’s best too. How do you know he killed or will kill 90% of population? In trespasser, the elf said, I will save the elven people. Even if this world has to die.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 1:52:13 GMT
Oh, so since he will only kill say 90% of the population it’s fine? Also-this is the thing-wiping out cultures even without wiping out every person in it is still genocide. And that’s exactly what his actions will do. And he still made that choice by himself, without their consent. We know this. Just like now. He’s just as totalitarian as the Evanuris he says as pure evil, so why should he be considered any better? Guarantee they were thinking they were doing what’s best too. How do you know he killed or will kill 90% of population? Also - no. Please don't use this serious term so frivolously: genocide is when one destroys and kills with intent of wiping certain people or their culture. Specifically. Solas has never done that, neither at the time of Evanuris or now. Destroying people is not his motivation. And if acting to do something about crappy situation and making choices that will ultimately affect others, with or without their consent, then every DA protagonist is as totalitarian and evil as Evanuris. If the cost would be so little, he would not have described it as he did in Trespasser and Tevinter Nights.Bit guess what? Even if it’s only 10%, 5%, 1% it’s still unacceptable. I’m not. His actions well fall into the definition. But fine, to avoid semantics his actions are an act of mass murder of members of the modern races. Happy now? Still objectively evil. Also, last I checked a big part of the games is getting everyone to support us so that’s getting their consent to act.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 1:54:30 GMT
How do you know he killed or will kill 90% of population? In trespasser, the elf said, I will save the elven people. Even if this world has to die. Yes, and he also destroyed "the world of the elves". But not the elves. And I think people may be surprised to learn what he means by "elven people" in the end, if clues left in the game are anything to go by. I'll just bring one of my favorites:
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 1:54:57 GMT
No, there are no situations in life where there are only two crappy options. Most Solas fans think the point of the Redeem path is going to be pounding that lesson into Solas’s head. Any game that forces a choice like that serves as a great example of shitty writing, trying to seem profound and prove a point when it’s anything but. And what exactly is Solas saving when everyone is dead? He saves nothing. But he sees himself as the one who gets to decide the fate of all. No matter how you spin that, that is selfish. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but DA was (and hopefully still will be) a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. You came into the series knowing this, we all did. As far as labelling And even in the world of Thedas, anyone who tries to destroy the world are portrayed as villains. Because some things aren’t morally they, some things are just good and some things are just evil.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 2:02:26 GMT
How do you know he killed or will kill 90% of population? Also - no. Please don't use this serious term so frivolously: genocide is when one destroys and kills with intent of wiping certain people or their culture. Specifically. Solas has never done that, neither at the time of Evanuris or now. Destroying people is not his motivation. And if acting to do something about crappy situation and making choices that will ultimately affect others, with or without their consent, then every DA protagonist is as totalitarian and evil as Evanuris. If the cost would be so little, he would not have described it as he did in Trespasser and Tevinter Nights.Bit guess what? Even if it’s only 10%, 5%, 1% it’s still unacceptable. I’m not. His actions well fall into the definition. But fine, to avoid semantics his actions are an act of mass murder of members of the modern races. Happy now? Still objectively evil. No, his actions don't fall into this definition. Nor they fall into the definition of murder. Murder according to dictionary: to kill (a person) unlawfully and unjustifiably with premeditated malice. Again: he is simply not motivated by the desire to kill people, he simply thinks he has no choice but to do something that will likely result in casualties. He also doesn't act out of premeditated malice - he makes it clear that he thinks that he does something that will help/save the world - and that he has no choice/he sees no better option.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 12, 2024 2:05:10 GMT
In trespasser, the elf said, I will save the elven people. Even if this world has to die. Yes, and he also destroyed "the world of the elves". But not the elves. So no elves were killed? What guarantee is there no one in this world won't be killed?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 2:08:09 GMT
If the cost would be so little, he would not have described it as he did in Trespasser and Tevinter Nights.Bit guess what? Even if it’s only 10%, 5%, 1% it’s still unacceptable. I’m not. His actions well fall into the definition. But fine, to avoid semantics his actions are an act of mass murder of members of the modern races. Happy now? Still objectively evil. No, his actions don't fall into this definition. Nor they fall into the definition of murder. Murder according to dictionary: to kill (a person) unlawfully and unjustifiably with premeditated malice. Again: he is simply not motivated by the desire to kill people, he simply thinks he has no choice but to do something that will likely result in casualties. He also doesn't act out of premeditated malice - he makes it clear that he thinks that he does something that will help/save the world - and that he has no choice/he sees no better option. Bullshit. He is killing them unlawfully and unjustifiably with a plan he has been premeditating for a decade. He knows people will die, but he is still doing it because he does not care about them because they are lesser in his eyes. At the absolute minimum, that is mass manslaughter. I get you’re a fan of him, but he’s a monster with his actions and there is no justifying it. You know BioWare said he is one of the antagonists of the game, right?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 2:08:43 GMT
Yes, and he also destroyed "the world of the elves". But not the elves. So no elves were killed? What guarantee is there no one in this world won't be killed? There is none, because we’ve already seen people get killed in the showcase today. And his response to hearing this wasn’t to stop, but brush them away like trash. “It’s what they do.”
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 2:10:09 GMT
No, there are no situations in life where there are only two crappy options. Most Solas fans think the point of the Redeem path is going to be pounding that lesson into Solas’s head. Any game that forces a choice like that serves as a great example of shitty writing, trying to seem profound and prove a point when it’s anything but. And what exactly is Solas saving when everyone is dead? He saves nothing. But he sees himself as the one who gets to decide the fate of all. No matter how you spin that, that is selfish. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but DA was (and hopefully still will be) a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. You came into the series knowing this, we all did. As far as labelling the "sometimes there are no good Third Options, only the lesser of two evils" as objectively shitty writing, the reverse can also be true: "I don't care about this story's previously established lore, tone, character motivations and actual capabilities, believability or even basic logic. They owe us heroes who always win with zero negative side effects!" Honestly, even if DA stuck to being a power fantasy where the main character is always in control and is always given options that make them feel good about themselves, it baffles me that it somehow can't be a story where we also explore fictional characters who were NOT given such luxury, and without writing them off as evil nutjobs. Because that's what I see Solas as: a protagonist who was never coddled by the storytellers. Never given an option that would let him escape morally intact.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 12, 2024 2:11:45 GMT
I mean, I get where you're coming from, but DA was (and hopefully still will be) a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. You came into the series knowing this, we all did. As far as labelling And even in the world of Thedas, anyone who tries to destroy the world are portrayed as villains. Because some things aren’t morally they, some things are just good and some things are just evil. As weary I am of DA's current writers, a small part of me hopes there is something, anything else going on with Solas' plan. Because if he's been completely honest with the Inquisition (and by proxy, us) about his plans, it is objectively stupid writing. If he truly wants to bring down the Veil, wouldn't it have been easier to say nothing or lie? Does he want to be stopped? Is it a false flag operation for something else? I realize I could be giving the writers too much credit, but whadda ya gonna do?
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 2:15:54 GMT
Yes, and he also destroyed "the world of the elves". But not the elves. So no elves were killed? What guarantee is there no one in this world won't be killed? There is no such guarantee and nowhere I said that there were no casualties. I've just pointing out that "destroying the world" doesn't necessarily means killing all of people. Solas destroyed the civilization of Elvenhan and destroyed the world how it was - without the Veil and separation of magic from physical existence. But he didn't kill everyone - people continued to live, only differently.
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Post by hopsalong on Jun 12, 2024 2:19:28 GMT
I mean, I get where you're coming from, but DA was (and hopefully still will be) a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. You came into the series knowing this, we all did. As far as labelling And even in the world of Thedas, anyone who tries to destroy the world are portrayed as villains. Because some things aren’t morally they, some things are just good and some things are just evil. This is a weird one, I half-agree with both arguments 😂 Sometimes there really aren't any 'morally pure' choices, sometimes it's about the path of most harm reduction. Like, do I agree that Solas was as bad as Corypheus? Absolutely not, but that's because I consider his actions in Inquisition a fun parallel (plan that involves subjugating the world because the old one's gone, removed from that world to a degree that its struggles seem irrelevant, the last of their kind on this side of the Veil, etc) but what separates them is Solas spent the length of Inquisition finally learning about the present in something other than dreams, where Cory just kinda...sucked the whole time. But. Buttt. No matter if there *is* something to the 'Veil had to come down before' theory, even *if* somehow a similar situation's happening in this game, Solas did still cause a city-wide catastrophe and has implied that mortals are lesser multiple times- and, I mean, even if his endgame is somehow to preserve life the fact remains he's going about it without considering the autonomy of that life, which makes him dangerous. Do I think he's evil? No, but he's very powerful and very removed and thinks he knows best n I can't defend that. For me that makes him interesting, but who knows, maybe the old gods'll vaporize him halfway through the game and that'll be that.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2024 2:20:41 GMT
And even in the world of Thedas, anyone who tries to destroy the world are portrayed as villains. Because some things aren’t morally they, some things are just good and some things are just evil. As weary I am of DA's current writers, a small part of hopes there is something, anything else going on with Solas' plan. Because if he's been completely honest with the Inquisition (and by proxy, us) about his plans, it is objectively stupid writing. If he truly wants to bring down the Veil, wouldn't it have been easier to say nothing or lie? Does he want to be stopped? Is it a false flag operation for something else? I realize I could be giving the writers too much credit, but whadda ya gonna do? bear in mind, as others pointed out, he is really bad at lying.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 12, 2024 2:25:31 GMT
So no elves were killed? What guarantee is there no one in this world won't be killed? There is no such guarantee and nowhere I said that there were no casualties. I've just pointing out that "destroying the world" doesn't necessarily means killing all of people. The demons in the gameplay video like a word with you. They may not kill everyone, but they sure are going to do their best until stopped. Only differently? Not by choice, right? How many of them were ok with that?
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 2:35:45 GMT
There is no such guarantee and nowhere I said that there were no casualties. I've just pointing out that "destroying the world" doesn't necessarily means killing all of people. The demons in the gameplay video like a word with you. They may not kill everyone, but they sure are going to do their best until stopped. Only differently? Not by choice, right? How many of them were ok with that? Would you prefer that Solas let Evanuris do worse things, which at this point is suggested to be something related to corrupting the world and every living thing with Blight (or something related to it)? It confuses me that people who write off Solas as a dangerous nutcase seem to always ignore the fact that he wasn't acting on some sort of sudden whim - he didn't just wake up one day and decided that the world is better without magic: he acted in the only way he could in order to prevent something he thought as much worse than destruction of a thriving civilization. It's not a situation in which Solas can just send everyone a survey to ask them "hey, will you allow me to change the world?"
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Post by sni2 on Jun 12, 2024 2:36:03 GMT
Am I a minority in the fandom for wanting to bitch slap Solas into oblivion? Because my Twitter right now is full of Solavellans, and I feel like an island.
I mean, I do have two timelines—one for kicking his butt, the other for redeeming him just for the different options. But my first instinct is to spartan kick him on the prologue.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 12, 2024 2:39:30 GMT
Am I a minority in the fandom for wanting to bitch slap Solas into oblivion? Because my Twitter right now is full of Solavellans, and I feel like an island. I mean, I do have two timelines—one for kicking his butt, the other for redeeming him just for the different options. But my first instinct is to spartan kick him on the prologue. Nah, most of the fandom seems to want him dead from what I've seen.
The problem is that in-game we aren't the only ones to want his head...so get in line?
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Post by sni2 on Jun 12, 2024 2:40:41 GMT
Am I a minority in the fandom for wanting to bitch slap Solas into oblivion? Because my Twitter right now is full of Solavellans, and I feel like an island. I mean, I do have two timelines—one for kicking his butt, the other for redeeming him just for the different options. But my first instinct is to spartan kick him on the prologue. Nah, most of the fandom seems to want him dead from what I've seen.
The problem is that in-game we aren't the only ones to want his head...so get in line?
hahahaha I'll settle for another punch.
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Post by roselavellan on Jun 12, 2024 3:06:42 GMT
No, his actions don't fall into this definition. Nor they fall into the definition of murder. Murder according to dictionary: to kill (a person) unlawfully and unjustifiably with premeditated malice. Again: he is simply not motivated by the desire to kill people, he simply thinks he has no choice but to do something that will likely result in casualties. He also doesn't act out of premeditated malice - he makes it clear that he thinks that he does something that will help/save the world - and that he has no choice/he sees no better option. Bullshit. He is killing them unlawfully and unjustifiably with a plan he has been premeditating for a decade. He knows people will die, but he is still doing it because he does not care about them because they are lesser in his eyes. At the absolute minimum, that is mass manslaughter.
It is more likely equivalent to manslaughter. Let's not forget that there needs to be a distinction between a person who maliciously SETS OUT to kill a number of people, and a person who is trying to do something ELSE but knows that some people will probably be killed. I know that in your eyes there is little distinction, but for the purposes of punishment, most societies will weigh the amount of malice involved to calculate the level of guilt.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 12, 2024 3:23:23 GMT
It's not a situation in which Solas can just send everyone a survey to ask them "hey, will you allow me to change the world?" So it's my way or the highway attitude. Boo hoo hoo he doesn't like whatever. He's the problem, not this world.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2024 3:31:58 GMT
It's not a situation in which Solas can just send everyone a survey to ask them "hey, will you allow me to change the world?" So it's my way or the highway attitude. Boo hoo hoo he doesn't like whatever. He's the problem, not this world. honestly this harkens back to one of DAs central questions. Thedas is a poop sandwich. There is definitely big structural problems with it between the Blight and the ruling elite both leading the continent to TOTAL destruction. The question is what to do about it? While Solas's plan is legit horrible, his motivations are certainly sympathetic.
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Post by eaglepursuit on Jun 12, 2024 3:35:14 GMT
It's not a situation in which Solas can just send everyone a survey to ask them "hey, will you allow me to change the world?" So it's my way or the highway attitude. Boo hoo hoo he doesn't like whatever. He's the problem, not this world. Thedas has plenty of problems. Solas just happens to be one of the problems that a handful of dedicated people can do something to fix.
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Post by jrpN7 on Jun 12, 2024 5:02:14 GMT
Of course he is - but he also knows a lot more than we do. And he already sacrificed many people to save the world from Evanuris - destroyed the whole of Elvenhan, but saved the world so it could rebuild. For whatever reason he thinks he has to do it again. I realize he has his fans here. I am not one of them. I think he's nuts. He's a mass murderer and just as big a danger to the world as the other old gods. Instead of allying with him lets put him behind the veil with the other two! It's never that black and white though. We see this all the time in conflicts in every war, across all civilizations, throughout all recorded history. Rarely are people hellbent on being evil just to be evil. Of course, there are exceptions. But Solas isn't one of them, and I can say that while not being a fan of Solas. Military operations for example, which are relevant to Dragon Age and the Inquisitor, require making though choices that lead to innocent people dying in order to often times save far more innocents in the long-term. Is it fair that those people died? Of course not. Is it sad? Absolutely. Generals, soldiers, survivors often struggle with the guilt. Does that make them bad people? No, certainly not. People with authentic desire to do good can only work with information that they have. I am positive the Inquisitor indirectly and unintentionally killed some innocent people with the sweeping decisions that were made in DA:I and I'm pretty sure we all feel the Inquisitor is a good person.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2024 5:05:18 GMT
I realize he has his fans here. I am not one of them. I think he's nuts. He's a mass murderer and just as big a danger to the world as the other old gods. Instead of allying with him lets put him behind the veil with the other two! It's never that black and white though. We see this all the time in conflicts in every war, across all civilizations, throughout all recorded history. Rarely are people hellbent on being evil just to be evil. Of course, there are exceptions. But Solas isn't one of them, and I can say that while not being a fan of Solas. Military operations for example, which are relevant to Dragon Age and the Inquisitor, require making though choices that lead to innocent people dying in order to often times save far more innocents in the long-term. Is it fair that those people died? Of course not. Is it sad? Absolutely. Generals, soldiers, survivors often struggle with the guilt. Does that make them bad people? No, certainly not. People with authentic desire to do good can only work with information that they have. I am positive the Inquisitor indirectly and unintentionally killed some innocent people with the sweeping decisions that were made in DA:I and I'm pretty sure we all feel the Inquisitor is a good person. I have been musing on this very concept to at times. And even when it comes to 'my people versus your people'. It might sound cold has hell, and indeed I clench up even considering it, but the fact is in a war people often have to make the call between 'my side' and 'your side.' And in the process the idea is, if ten thousand people die over there so five thousand people can live over there, its often a calculus that generals and soliders and military leaders have been making for centuries. Which is also what makes Solas so sympathetic, trying to save his people his something any of us would potentially do, but also what makes us inclined to stop him.
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