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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Jul 13, 2024 22:23:42 GMT
I know you might not be asking this seriously, but it occurs to me that in a game that is emphatically about teamwork, I doubt you would fit in a team as a complete jerk goblin. Its an RPG so the player should have options to express oneself. Maybe some wants to play a yerk, a killer who kills all the characters which the game allows to be killed, a moron, goody two shoes or someone who flirts with everyone that moves... And i disagree the game story isn´t about teamwork first it´s about stopping Solas in the beginning (maybe also at the end) and then for the most game atleast the two Evanuris aka Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain. Also because of Solas blood Rook is a special one character so it doesn´t matter that much what personality he / she / they have.
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Post by Kabraxal on Jul 13, 2024 22:28:20 GMT
I know you might not be asking this seriously, but it occurs to me that in a game that is emphatically about teamwork, I doubt you would fit in a team as a complete jerk goblin. That depends on the team and what you consider someone to be a jerk. I think killing someone for being annoying is inarguably a jerk… well, a psychotic asshole if we’re being objective.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Jul 13, 2024 22:33:18 GMT
I think killing someone for being annoying is inarguably a jerk… well, a psychotic asshole if we’re being objective. The question is does this matter in the overall storylines? I would say No. A psychotic asshole is can be useful if they stop the Evanuris / Solas threat.
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Post by Kabraxal on Jul 13, 2024 22:53:07 GMT
I think killing someone for being annoying is inarguably a jerk… well, a psychotic asshole if we’re being objective. The question is does this matter in the overall storylines? I would say No. A psychotic asshole is can be useful if they stop the Evanuris / Solas threat.
Same answer as I had with why the Inquisitor couldn’t be a psychopath … they would not survive many of their companions. Hell, even with the little Origins and DA2 played with companions standing up to a douche, the more evil PCs never had the proper ending they’d actually get: death. That kind of evil for evil’s sake has just been a terrible power fantasy that never really jived with the way the games end. Especially when there are multiple companions and advisors that would fill the PC with arrows or blades. If Bioware let PCs be evil, then they need to build appropriate consequences to that. No more endings where there is no functional difference between good and evil characters. I’d laugh my ass off if Bioware had the balls to let people be evil only for an arrow to be lodged in their eye socket out of nowhere by Harding.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Jul 13, 2024 23:06:34 GMT
Same answer as I had with why the Inquisitor couldn’t be a psychopath … they would not survive many of their companions. Hell, even with the little Origins and DA2 played with companions standing up to a douche, the more evil PCs never had the proper ending they’d actually get: death. Again i disagree because Corypheus is on paper such a threat that a victory must achieved that any costs. Yes Inquisitor or Rook are evil persons but there nothing like the big bad guys. Wait the grey wardens are also no saints well atleast they shouldn´t be ones.
Also Rook like the Inquisitor is a specal person who has a very unique power in the war against those evil bastards. I doubt that Bioware will ever allow us to kill a child aka Connor ever again but yeah even a child killer is of course a terrible person and in normal times ever in a position of power but well Rook has Solas blood in themselves so Rook is a value asset. It´s war and even psychopaths coud be useful.
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Post by Kabraxal on Jul 14, 2024 0:01:22 GMT
Same answer as I had with why the Inquisitor couldn’t be a psychopath … they would not survive many of their companions. Hell, even with the little Origins and DA2 played with companions standing up to a douche, the more evil PCs never had the proper ending they’d actually get: death. Again i disagree because Corypheus is on paper such a threat that a victory must achieved that any costs. Yes Inquisitor or Rook are evil persons but there nothing like the big bad guys. Wait the grey wardens are also no saints well atleast they shouldn´t be ones.
Also Rook like the Inquisitor is a specal person who has a very unique power in the war against those evil bastards. I doubt that Bioware will ever allow us to kill a child aka Connor ever again but yeah even a child killer is of course a terrible person and in normal times ever in a position of power but well Rook has Solas blood in themselves so Rook is a value asset. It´s war and even psychopaths coud be useful.
We’ll see about the new companions, but Inquisition could not have had a psychopath PC survive. Sera, Bull, and Cass would likely kill the PC on the spot. Leliana and Solas may let one survive ling enough to deal with things, but that would be as far as the PC gets. They would never make it to Trespasser alive. If the game would handle an evil PC properly, I’m all for it. But just the normal evil power fantasy with no consequence for the PC? Nah, that’s just bad writing pandering to the player.
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Post by jennica on Jul 14, 2024 0:01:57 GMT
The question is does this matter in the overall storylines? I would say No. A psychotic asshole is can be useful if they stop the Evanuris / Solas threat.
Same answer as I had with why the Inquisitor couldn’t be a psychopath … they would not survive many of their companions. Hell, even with the little Origins and DA2 played with companions standing up to a douche, the more evil PCs never had the proper ending they’d actually get: death. That kind of evil for evil’s sake has just been a terrible power fantasy that never really jived with the way the games end. Especially when there are multiple companions and advisors that would fill the PC with arrows or blades. If Bioware let PCs be evil, then they need to build appropriate consequences to that. No more endings where there is no functional difference between good and evil characters. I’d laugh my ass off if Bioware had the balls to let people be evil only for an arrow to be lodged in their eye socket out of nowhere by Harding. I think it ultimately comes down to what devs prioritize: player agency/freedom or narrative consistency/in-universe logic. And it seems Bioware choose the latter over the former, so i doubt that Rook can be unhinged serial killer. Personally i don't care but it sucks for people who like to play evil characters. However, "Hero who is not a 'complete asshole antihero' is not a single trope. We give you different ways to play Rook in Veilguard" can still mean that Rook can be morally dubious, even if there is a line that they won't cross.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 0:10:29 GMT
Same answer as I had with why the Inquisitor couldn’t be a psychopath … they would not survive many of their companions. Hell, even with the little Origins and DA2 played with companions standing up to a douche, the more evil PCs never had the proper ending they’d actually get: death. That kind of evil for evil’s sake has just been a terrible power fantasy that never really jived with the way the games end. Especially when there are multiple companions and advisors that would fill the PC with arrows or blades. If Bioware let PCs be evil, then they need to build appropriate consequences to that. No more endings where there is no functional difference between good and evil characters. I’d laugh my ass off if Bioware had the balls to let people be evil only for an arrow to be lodged in their eye socket out of nowhere by Harding. I think it ultimately comes down to what devs prioritize: player agency/freedom or narrative consistency/in-universe logic. And it seems Bioware choose the latter over the former, so i doubt that Rook can be unhinged serial killer. Personally i don't care but it sucks for people who like to play evil characters. However, "Hero who is not a 'complete asshole antihero' is not a single trope. We give you different ways to play Rook in Veilguard" can still mean that Rook can be morally dubious, even if they're not literally a psychopath.
I think the trouble for this kind of thing from Bio's perspective is that BioWare has never really been that type of game that gives players ultimate player agency/ freedom. That has always been more Bethesda, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and now Baldur's Gate kind of thing. BioWare has always tried to do really strong narrative, thematic, and character driven games which is contradictory to games where the player can do anything. Nothing wrong with the former but if you want the latter. But then BioWare, in Origins at least, tried to give us a game where you could do anything in a world where there is strong rules and strong attention to theme, character, etc...and it really does not hold up. Sure give people the option of playing the anti hero, the jerk, Inquisitor, Shepard, Hawke, and Ryder all have these options DESPITE being really focussed experiences, but don't give the player the option to essentially ignore the rules of the setting to do what they want...like the Warden. Don't give us the option to be Big Good without consequences. Don't give us the option to be Big Evil without consequences and this is something Origins did not do well in, but both 2 and Inquisition did. Edit: I should clarify that they did BETTER in 2. 2 still had some issues, mainly being a blood mage in Kirkwall, but at least the choices did feel better balanced and more morally neutral with realistic consequences.
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Post by catcher on Jul 14, 2024 0:41:28 GMT
And I'm gonna go ahead and keep talking about what i do and do not like in video games. I'm going to start here because this is at least the third time someone on this board has directly or indirectly accused me of wanting to shut down discussion which distresses me because first I only want more discussion and second it presupposes I have some power to shut it down which I don't have and wouldn't use in that way anyway. I thought if I have a different perspective on a topic that I should present that along with logical facts and ideas on why I had that perspective. Obviously, I'm doing that wrong if this is the impression that I leave. If you will take this aspect (what makes you feel that I am trying to shut down discussion) up with me on DMs, I'd be glad to discuss it and find better ways to express my thoughts. (That goes for other members here who feel that way about my posts as well) Until then, I won't be taking up the rest of your post until I can work this out. Thanks for your time and hope to hear from you when available.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 0:46:43 GMT
And I'm gonna go ahead and keep talking about what i do and do not like in video games. I'm going to start here because this is at least the third time someone on this board has directly or indirectly accused me of wanting to shut down discussion which distresses me because first I only want more discussion and second it presupposes I have some power to shut it down which I don't have and wouldn't use in that way anyway. I thought if I have a different perspective on a topic that I should present that along with logical facts and ideas on why I had that perspective. Obviously, I'm doing that wrong if this is the impression that I leave. If you will take this aspect (what makes you feel that I am trying to shut down discussion) up with me on DMs, I'd be glad to discuss it and find better ways to express my thoughts. (That goes for other members here who feel that way about my posts as well) Until then, I won't be taking up the rest of your post until I can work this out. Thanks for your time and hope to hear from you when available. Dude you usually post way too long walls of text for me to think you want to shut down debate. At least you don't, from what I've seen, go 'this will be my last post' on this issue and then post a wall of text. Your commentary usually is thoughtful, insightful, and quite a hike to get through. I was actually skimming through the conversation between you two and wanted to offer my two cents but seems like the conversation has moved on from it and I didn't have the time last night to do so. But keep up the good work.
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Jul 14, 2024 3:12:20 GMT
We've had a discussion somewhere on this forum about how you play evil characters in BioWare games and I'll paraphrase what I posted there: Chaotic Jackass? Nah. Lawful Ruthless? Yup. My Canon Warden had Branka using the Anvil of the Void despite what she is and what the Anvil does because it's a weapon that can hit the 'spawn where they live. My Canon Warden not only drank Avernus' concoction but allowed him to continue his research without constraint and took the Blood Mage specialization soon afterwards, using it only against Darkspawn. He also spared Loghain to join the Grey Wardens since he's a good soldier and decent tactician/strategist, something the Wardens need.
He's not 'evil', he's ruthless and willing to bend morality to see the end of the blight.
I don't have much hope I'll be able to do similar things with similar reasoning in DA:V, I'd like to be wrong though.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 14, 2024 8:01:47 GMT
Also Rook like the Inquisitor is a special person who has a very unique power in the war against those evil bastards. This is what I find really ironic. In the trailer back in 2020 they emphasised that this time round there is "no magic hand" and in the Behind the Scenes Video were emphasising how Rook (no name then) was just going to be a regular hero with no special abilities who built themselves up as a leader from nothing (a bit like Hawke). Someone dealing with issues that those in power are not dealing with. I imagine when the big baddies start rampaging across Thedas, those in power will want to deal with them. Someone "they will never see coming". Hmm. I wonder who "they" are. Also, having a special relationship with you know who via the Fade is not something that a regular hero has. What I'm going to be interested to discover is exactly why Rook came to the attention of Varric and Harding in the first place. By this I mean what were they doing in Minrathous as part of their faction and why were they in the inn at just the right time? Were they invited there by the two heroes? If not, how do they know they can trust them? Did they already see them as leadership material before our confrontation with Solas or is it our special relationship that is the determining factor? Since Rook is already wearing a robe with the Veilguard "V" on it in the game play trailer, presumably this was something Varric and Harding were already trying to set up before those events. Questions, questions, so many questions.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jul 14, 2024 8:03:52 GMT
We've had a discussion somewhere on this forum about how you play evil characters in BioWare games and I'll paraphrase what I posted there: Chaotic Jackass? Nah. Lawful Ruthless? Yup. My Canon Warden had Branka using the Anvil of the Void despite what she is and what the Anvil does because it's a weapon that can hit the 'spawn where they live. My Canon Warden not only drank Avernus' concoction but allowed him to continue his research without constraint and took the Blood Mage specialization soon afterwards, using it only against Darkspawn. He also spared Loghain to join the Grey Wardens since he's a good soldier and decent tactician/strategist, something the Wardens need. He's not 'evil', he's ruthless and willing to bend morality to see the end of the blight. I don't have much hope I'll be able to do similar things with similar reasoning in DA:V, I'd like to be wrong though. These discussions always end up taking extremes. Indeed, Our PC not wanting to hijack the mission to save some person being arrested is not what I would consider 'evil', or even a 'total asshole'. Our companions have presumably seen enough of death, despair, etc that I very much doubt they would become homicidal towards the PC due to making that choice - even if they may not be happy about it. So why remove the choice?
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Post by RelevantRevenant on Jul 14, 2024 8:03:56 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 14, 2024 8:22:49 GMT
Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. Some people just get their giggles from playing such a person. However, I wonder how many of them there really are. Lots of people are complaining about being denied the choice of being a blood mage but then defending its use on the grounds that it isn't wholly evil, which ironically is exactly why it is outlawed in Thedas because people may start off with good intentions but there is always the temptation to take it a bit further whilst justifying it is for the common good. When it comes to these matters, the Devs may also be influenced by what they have garnered from the game play feedback from previous games. Apparently, they are able to pick up a fair bit when we connect with our on-line account or the Keep. So, when comparing those who take blood mage spec in DAO, where you had to consciously agree to an evil act, with those who took it in DA2, where there was no associated cost, likely showed that really the number who would really be committed to it in world would actually be quite small. They are also likely aware that people often post on You Tube, their most evil play through when players are making decisions purely because it is evil, not for any other reason and when comparing this with game files, it is probably clear that putting such options in that may require a great deal of work in getting them to fit the narrative when it comes to the reaction of companions and the wider world, just isn't worth the time and resources necessary, because it is not really that popular a choice. I'm sure there will still be plenty of opportunities to make ruthless, less noble decisions in DAV if you wish, but not if they interfere with telling the story in a way that makes sense. I prefer playing as a genuine hero, although I did play one of my Wardens, my noble Cousland, as a political pragmatist, making some decisions, particularly with regard to the fate of Loghain, out of expediency but nevertheless never did anything totally immoral (like sacrificing Connor or doing a deal with the Tevinter slaver. He also rejected the dark ritual because Loghain begged him not to make him do it and was happy to make the last sacrifice for the sake of his son-in-law.) In the end everyone still seemed to love him, so clearly he was enough of a hero to warrant the name.
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Post by our_lady_of_darkness on Jul 14, 2024 8:33:40 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. And that's fine, you do you. Even though I don't play evil-jerk characters, I appreciate the fact that I'm given a choice to play someone who makes less than stellar choices (Renegon and Paragade types). Also, I typically do multiple playthroughs so having the option to create different Rooks personality-wise is really important to me.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jul 14, 2024 8:34:31 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. What makes a 'shite person's is subjective. I wouldn't say anything less than Captain America is a shite person. I don't really see the appeal of a total evil playthrough either, but I do see the appeal of playing a character rather rough around the edges, and ruthless.
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Post by theratpack55 on Jul 14, 2024 10:17:02 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. I'm one of those people who will happily play evil if given the option, I just find it refreshing, not the same old "hero saves the world" story that's been done over and over. I loved my full-on Durge who made dad proud, and the fact that you could actually resolve some of of your companions' issues by actively making them worse. Idk, it's just fun for me.
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Post by jennica on Jul 14, 2024 10:23:19 GMT
I think the trouble for this kind of thing from Bio's perspective is that BioWare has never really been that type of game that gives players ultimate player agency/ freedom. It's been awhile since i played KOTOR1, but you can be comically evil in this game and as fas as i remember it only bites you in the ass near the end of the game, where you will be confronted by some of your companions. To Bioware credit tho, at least KOTOR1 had different endings for good and evil playthroughs, unlike Origins.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jul 14, 2024 10:37:44 GMT
I've tried to play evil/ruthless in games but it just leaves so bad taste and feeling to me I cannot do it. I think I restarted the games where I was an asshole to people and did better afterwards
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Post by jennica on Jul 14, 2024 10:58:04 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. For me it really depends on the game's setting. If it's something more grounded and closer to our world then yeah, i have a problem with playing as a shitty person. But I can still play as someone who is willing to make hard decisions (even if there is a line that they'll never cross) and doesn't always do what's morally right, which is why i disliked that Rook automatically choose to help that women in the gameplay reveal. However, in games like KOTOR1 and BG3? Yeah, i have no problem with playing as unhinged maniac, because both Star Wars and D&D aren't really something that i'd call "grounded", especially SW. Like, you bet in one of my playthroughs Revan was on her quest for UNLIMITED POWEEEER!!! and did some really comically evil things.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 11:03:13 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. What makes a 'shite person's is subjective. I wouldn't say anything less than Captain America is a shite person. I don't really see the appeal of a total evil playthrough either, but I do see the appeal of playing a character rather rough around the edges, and ruthless. Which we've been allowed to do in pretty much every BioWare game I know of so there is little reason to think its going to change now.
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 14, 2024 11:05:05 GMT
I know you might not be asking this seriously, but it occurs to me that in a game that is emphatically about teamwork, I doubt you would fit in a team as a complete jerk goblin. Its an RPG so the player should have options to express oneself. Maybe some wants to play a yerk, a killer who kills all the characters which the game allows to be killed, a moron, goody two shoes or someone who flirts with everyone that moves... And i disagree the game story isn´t about teamwork first it´s about stopping Solas in the beginning (maybe also at the end) and then for the most game atleast the two Evanuris aka Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain. Also because of Solas blood Rook is a special one character so it doesn´t matter that much what personality he / she / they have.
Hm... My understanding is that the type of character we play is based on the choices we make during the CC. Once we made our choices ( race, class, lineage and identity) we are locked in. Plus, the Veilguard isn't about darkness or light but a "chiaroscuro". .... light and shadow dance... Thedas is on a knife edge and our decisions will tip Thedas into chaos or stability. Plus each member of the team brings their own version of morality. This game invites the player into choices with moral nuances.... of which, some, affects team members into hating you, loving you, leaving you, or knife you (doubt about the latter). Player agency and the choice wheel limits your actions to these effects.
Interesting is what the game will show us if the Protagonist plays the fool or ass-wipe. Either choice will have companions killed or leave.... and how will the remaining team survive, let alone win? If the player chooses the goal too win, then he/she places personal restrictions on how the protagonist behaves. In other words, keep as many of the companions as possible and that means don't piss them off.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 14, 2024 11:08:47 GMT
Right. I'm commenting on this topic more generally. I don't feel like I'm a good enough person in real life. When I play RPGs, I like to roleplay as someone who does good, says the right things and makes a difference. Personally, I really don't get the idea of playing as a shite person who goes about things dubiously. M etoo I don't reall ypla yevil characters. My characters aer in thos eplaces t ostop the evil no tbecome evil themselves. I kind of thin kof my characte ras the He-man/ She-ra o fthe story they are there to make things bette rfo rthe peopl livin gthere if they can. A tleas tthat's how I see it.
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 14, 2024 11:11:31 GMT
I've tried to play evil/ruthless in games but it just leaves so bad taste and feeling to me I cannot do it. I think I restarted the games where I was an asshole to people and did better afterwards
I know what you mean. However, some "grey" choices, if available, are inevitable. Punching that journalist in ME was most satisfying
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