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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 4, 2020 14:46:22 GMT
This seems like a weird choice to have to make. Why was a 3D engine in early/mid 2010s not easily able to do basic closeup camera work akin to Kotor, a game that released in 2003? This shouldn't even be something that you do manually - it should be based on an algorithm that can automatically do it for every conversation. Is Frostbite that bad they couldn't do that?
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 4, 2020 14:46:52 GMT
"Love and care" isn't a very useful metric compared to, say, hours of dev time. Love and care are free, but working hours cost. I dare say they need to be more efficient with their resources then. As always personal opinion, but you could cut out about 60% of Inquisition and it would be much better for it. Then of course they couldn't boast about "60+ hour story!!" in marketing but it is what it is.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 4, 2020 14:54:29 GMT
This seems like a weird choice to have to make. Why was a 3D engine in early/mid 2010s not easily able to do basic closeup camera work akin to Kotor, a game that released in 2003? This shouldn't even be something that you do manually - it should be based on an algorithm that can automatically do it for every conversation. Is Frostbite that bad they couldn't do that? Its more that Frostbite has zero native infrastructure for a lot of things the devs were accustomed to having in their old engine, so they had to build tools for things like that from scratch, is my understanding. I think they were devoting resources to the more elaborate cutscenes and quest conversations that had to be hand crafted and building a middle ground sort of framework to structure the smaller quest conversation was too far down their to-do list for the schedule to allow. So they decided to just use what we got.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 4, 2020 14:56:23 GMT
John Epler says he found a way to add extra conversations to the game and you equate it to cutting corners, and you wonder why I don’t think your clever. He talks about making compromises, to make something work, or not have the feature at all. I say that I don't like the compromise. You can choose to ignore this person, you can choose to be offended on John's behalf, go on a rage and insult him, or you can have a conversation and see what he's rambling on about. So far, you are choosing the second option. Do you wish to continue with that option, or do you want to be civil? Edited by moderator
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Post by FireAndBlood on Jun 4, 2020 15:08:26 GMT
John Epler says he found a way to add extra conversations to the game and you equate it to cutting corners, and you wonder why I don’t think your clever. He talks about making compromises, to make something work, or not have the feature at all. I say that I don't like the compromise. You can choose to ignore this person, you can choose to be offended on John's behalf, go on a rage and insult him, or you can have a conversation and see what he's rambling on about. So far, you are choosing the second option. Do you wish to continue with that option, or do you want to be civil? Edited by moderatorJohn Epler explains how he found a way to add extra content to the game, you called him a hack that should quit and then got upset when people called you out on your bullshit. If you can’t handle people punching holes through your straw man arguments then you’d better get off the internet.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Jun 4, 2020 15:31:16 GMT
Dragon Age Inquisition Game of the Year Editon along with other EA titles is coming to Steam. Currently DAI GotY is on sale.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 4, 2020 15:43:16 GMT
John Epler explains how he found a way to add extra content to the game Like I said, I am not limiting myself to the example John Epler said. I want you to focus on this John Epler @eplerjcA good 90% of 'bad' decisions are, in fact, the best decision at the time. Sometimes we're right, sometimes not. And I said I don't like it. Because the 90% of bad decisions does not pertain, as John describes it, to this one particular instance, in the entire history of game development. It is described as being universal across all bad decisions in game development. If we consider the amount of "bad" implementations of mechanics Bioware has made over the past few games, it makes me wonder how many "bad" options were the "go to", for essential mechanics of their games, that would have otherwise been omitted. And considering all the "bad" options they chose and have been criticized for, how have other studios solved them and moved past them long ago? Which points to more problems, in addition to the reported management ones, that plagues the technical aspect of game development, within Bioware. Or you can say I am just reading too much into it.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Jun 4, 2020 15:51:20 GMT
Okay Dragon Age 2 is also available on Steam. Unfortunately not as a Complete Editio / GotY but as two separate packs.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Jun 4, 2020 16:00:58 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Please remember that using terms such as 'autistic' is against the rules, therefore posts have been edited. Edit - Used in a derogatory way, a clearer explanation is in the rules - bsn.boards.net/post/1185130/thread
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 4, 2020 16:07:59 GMT
I'll be more careful with my future tisms, thank you. Much appreciated.
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 4, 2020 17:41:00 GMT
And they had cutscenes galore for the companion quests, romance, and dialogue, judgements, and a few other character based moments... rather the money go to that and romances than to pulling the camera in close so random NPC A can tell you to grab shit. Granted, it fooled thousands into calling TW3 revolutionary, but I’d rather have an actual RPG with characters and customisations being a prime focus. The trouble is that the design left the game feeling unbalanced. Inquisition is basically two games. You've got the interactions you've listed that are well made, but then you've got the sloppy MMO presentation that makes up about 60%(probably higher) of the game. It's this imbalance that only makes the MMO side feel worse. The side quests in The Witcher 3 are a joy to play. You can tell CD Project put the same love and care to them as they did the main quest. More importantly, this consistency means that I'm not taking quests in the open world thinking "oh Mr NPC, I see Bioware didn't care enough to give you any sort of presentation, in that case why should I care about your bullshit either'. I shouldn't be thinking that for a part of the game that makes up the majority of the game. CDPR got you hook, line, and sinker. Their quests are actually not better. They simply zoomed a camera in. And given all the flaws in writing and world building, I was more bored of their pointless fetch quests than those in DAI... at least they let me wander a world that didn’t feel like it was simply a set piece filled with one dimensional cut outs. Doesn’t help their main quest and most characters were also pretty poor. Every time the game stretched out the story and force fed me the most cliched and unlikeable characters possible, I started getting pissed until I beat it and hated the game with passion. It’s a wonder I ended up loving the Netflix show. But then, it felt more like Dragon Age in its delivery. They hired some good writers for it 😝
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Post by ellawyn on Jun 4, 2020 17:45:49 GMT
I don’t think any developer would ever be fully content and satisfied about the game he/she develops, in the sense that there’ll always be cuts and things that have to be modified to fit them in the game from their original Intention. This doesn’t means that John’s possible unhappiness about something they’re developing now, because it had to be changed even if it’s not what he’d want, is something on the scope and level of the ambient dialogues in DAI. Or that it’d be something we’d necessarily hate. Any developer? Honestly, pretty much every creative in every medium ever will struggle with this feeling to some degree. It's one of the big hurdles you've got to overcome to be an artist/writer/whatever, even in a medium like novels where your resources are essentially unlimited. The perfect ideal in your head will never match what you're actually capable of producing. Every work of art, even the masterpieces, have flaws. And no one is more painfully aware of them than their creators. Neil Gaiman once said something to tune of "a novel can best be defined as a long piece of prose with something wrong with it." Change out "novel" and "prose" with your medium of choice: Most creatives who have made something in it will probably have a similar opinion. That doesn't mean what they're working on is bad. It just means it's not perfect - and it never will be, because nothing can be. If you keep picking at something until its perfect, you'll never finish anything.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 4, 2020 17:57:54 GMT
I downloaded a mod that zoomed those conversations in. Just being able to see peoples face when your talking to them improves things greatly. You can fix it with a mod. John Epler couldn't do it with all the resources of EA, Bioware and direct knowledge and access to the source code of the game. But some internet rando made a mod to do it for him. Is this correct?
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 4, 2020 18:01:05 GMT
I downloaded a mod that zoomed those conversations in. Just being able to see peoples face when your talking to them improves things greatly. You can fix it with a mod. John Epler couldn't do it with all the resources of EA, Bioware and direct knowledge and access to the source code of the game. But some internet rando made a mod to do it for him. Is this correct? Key phrase coming in..... FOR FREE. You do know of these pesky things devs have to worry about like wages, tool costs, and a budget... don’t you?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jun 4, 2020 18:13:12 GMT
Dragon Age Inquisition Game of the Year Editon along with other EA titles is coming to Steam. Currently DAI GotY is on sale.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 4, 2020 18:18:33 GMT
Key phrase coming in..... FOR FREE. You do know of these pesky things devs have to worry about like wages, tool costs, and a budget... don’t you? I just want to interject that Bioware already had worked on cutscenes. If the implication is that those were done by hand and hard coded, but there was not enough time to do so for all dialogues, within the game, had anyone in Bioware developed this mod to begin with, how much time and cost would have been spared to Bioware? Surely, it would have been faster and easier to implement, with knowledge of the engine, source code and camera variables, than some random dude on the internet. Did nobody think of this? And the other options was to not have the conversations at all? In a RPG? I'm sorry, but that sounds disappointing at best. What would I be playing? If this is the level of product quality that players can expect from Bioware going forward, why would anyone want their games? There are far more competent developers that juggle the same issues far more efficiently. And while we may buy the next Bioware game regardless, how many of us are there? How many of us are left?
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 4, 2020 18:28:27 GMT
Key phrase coming in..... FOR FREE. You do know of these pesky things devs have to worry about like wages, tool costs, and a budget... don’t you? I just want to interject that Bioware already had worked on cutscenes. If the implication is that those were done by hand and hard coded, but there was not enough time to do so for all dialogues, within the game, had anyone in Bioware developed this mod to begin with, how much time and cost would have been spared to Bioware? Surely, it would have been faster and easier to implement, with knowledge of the engine, source code and camera variables, than some random dude on the internet. Did nobody think of this? And the other options was to not have the conversations at all? In a RPG? I'm sorry, but that sounds disappointing at best. What would I be playing? If this is the level of product quality that players can expect from Bioware going forward, why would anyone want their games? There are far more competent developers that juggle the same issues far more efficiently. And while we may buy the next Bioware game regardless, how many of us are there? How many of us are left? .... you complete and willing obtuseness is no longer worth it. It’s quite clear you are only here to argue against Bioware no matter what.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Jun 4, 2020 18:39:39 GMT
John Epler explains how he found a way to add extra content to the game Like I said, I am not limiting myself to the example John Epler said. I want you to focus on this John Epler @eplerjcA good 90% of 'bad' decisions are, in fact, the best decision at the time. Sometimes we're right, sometimes not. And I said I don't like it. Because the 90% of bad decisions does not pertain, as John describes it, to this one particular instance, in the entire history of game development. It is described as being universal across all bad decisions in game development. If we consider the amount of "bad" implementations of mechanics Bioware has made over the past few games, it makes me wonder how many "bad" options were the "go to", for essential mechanics of their games, that would have otherwise been omitted. And considering all the "bad" options they chose and have been criticized for, how have other studios solved them and moved past them long ago? Which points to more problems, in addition to the reported management ones, that plagues the technical aspect of game development, within Bioware. Or you can say I am just reading too much into it. The guy found a way to add content in a way you didn’t like so you called him a hack and said he should quit, you can keep moving the goalposts all you want the entire board saw through your paper thin arguments. It’s obvious at this point that I’m talking to a brick wall so this will be the last I write about the matter, feel free to reply with a witty remark or one of your essays so you can tell yourself you had the last word.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 4, 2020 19:01:08 GMT
Gillian de Nooijer @gilliandn How dare you Mark. How's the development going during this coronacrisis though? Everyone in the team doing well?
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah We are holding it together. Its a mixed bag. We have some processes that definitely work best with being able to gather people together. But we keep pushing
Psy'Aviah @ psy_aviah I hope the employees are safe, and also get to take some rest during these periods and that there's no more #crunchtime #development. I can live with delayed releases or waiting a long time for DA4 or quality of life of devs & quality of product, I do understand DLC then as well.
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah We are trying to make people take care of themselves. Its hard when you are aware that you are working slower than you are used to.
Everyone needs to look after their own health. Take time for yourself. Take vacation. Balance work and home. Even when you are home
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Post by colfoley on Jun 4, 2020 19:04:16 GMT
I don't know I guess I am ambivalent on this whole thing because Inquisition had far larger problems then this. And I am encouraged that Andromeda despite ITS problems was able to utilize cutscene convos and these things are few and far between. I accept Epler's argument since the little I've studied game dev indicates what kind of HELL it is.
But regardless of these flaws bioware still makes quality games. In spite of the laundry list of (mostly minor) complaints about Inquisition it's still my favorite game of all time. Hell I'm finishing up my seventh playthrough right now and none of them have been less then 70 hours. I've spent more time playing DAI then any game in my life. If that's not 'quality' I don't know what it is.
Meanwhile I'd still rank Andromeda as better then most games on the market. Even better then TW3. Played it like 4 times so far.
Btw TW3 only played twice. I was really tempted with the show but the lack of replay value plus bugs was kind of a turn off.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 4, 2020 19:17:16 GMT
Rupert Oldcorn @deckard_Red Oh I hear that white boarding some discussions out in a room can be much quicker. Now seem to have lots of meetings to discuss an idea, break off into smaller meetings to discuss in detail and then return with hopefully a conclusion, takes maybe three times as long as normal
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah That's my experience. Though maybe even going through that cycle a few times.
Rupert Oldcorn @deckard_Red Yeah, the hopefully was key; and then you potentially miss those sparks of innovation that getting people bouncing ideas off each leads to, the more the team compartmentalises the less you get those moments. Haven’t found a good piece of tech to assist yet either
Had a recent moment where someone said they didn’t want to change a process until we were back in the office and I was like, I appreciate that it’s more complicated to change now but the fact is we might not be back until Sept (optimistically) and we can’t shelf things that long
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah totally
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 4, 2020 21:25:30 GMT
Btw TW3 only played twice. I was really tempted with the show but the lack of replay value plus bugs was kind of a turn off. TW3 has the distinction of being my favorite game that I’ve only played through once.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 4, 2020 21:57:45 GMT
Btw TW3 only played twice. I was really tempted with the show but the lack of replay value plus bugs was kind of a turn off. TW3 has the distinction of being my favorite game that I’ve only played through once. Yeah, I think that's the same for me. I played it once and actually really enjoyed it, but have never had any desire to replay it.
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 4, 2020 23:09:39 GMT
I only played Cuphead once on Normal difficulty. In fairness, playing on Hard would have been like escaping a house fire and then trying to swim in one of those acid pools at Yellowstone National Park.
Hey, I'll note for interest's sake that Polygon published a summer reading list for video game enthusiasts yesterday and "Tevinter Nights" was on there:
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