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Post by telanadas on Feb 27, 2021 14:49:14 GMT
DA4 is far, far away, that's for sure. If it's sooner than that I really doubt it's going to be as good as it could've been, and we'll be left with another game that has design or story issues, like DA:I and ME:A. I really don't have much confidence in DA4. Before this news it was an instant buy for me. Now, I'm going to have to wait a few days and see. I dislike how everyone consider this good news because to me, at best, it's very bittersweet news. At worst, it means that Hudson lied, because he said that Dragon Age is a SP property and that it will be treated as such. It's insane how we've gone from getting a new game every 2-3 years, to waiting 9 years for a single one. In that time span we would've gotten DA4 in 2017, DA5 in 2020, and DA6 in 2023. Instead we're just waiting on just DA4 to release around 2023. I totally agree with you. I want to be optimistic about DA4 because it is one of favourite games and world settings, but I still have to wonder what they've been doing all this time, especially since hearing more about Joplin. I honestly just wish Bioware were more upfront and transparent with their fans about stuff like this. I know this is going to sound entitled and what I want doesn't anything much in the grand scheme of things, but after dancing around the topic of live service for years now, why did this news have to be confirmed by Jason Schrier on a paywalled article instead of BW communicating directly to fans on their blog or through a dev diary? "The next Dragon Age, which doesn’t yet have an official title or release date, had previously been designed with a heavy multiplayer component, said the people, who asked not to be named because they were not authorized to speak to the press. In recent months, it has transformed into a single-player-only game after EA was stung by a recent multiplayer flop." This is a red flag to me, because Casey Hudson said this in 2018: If the game has gone through this many iterations and they only recently switched it to single player, surely that will blow out the dev time even more because they've seemingly been focusing on multiplayer being a key part of the core game until recently. Maybe it might have even worked. But just the fact that they've now completely switched back to a single player focus almost feels like a knee-jerk reaction to the failure of Anthem. I'm not opposed to multiplayer if it's satisfying and well-designed. I honestly think BW could make a Dragon Age Online like ESO and make a killing from it. At the end of the day though Dragon age has always been single player focused and with so much hinging on this game I don't think it's the right time to experiment with multiplayer on a game as important as this one. I'm just worried it took them this many years to realise that...
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 27, 2021 15:09:24 GMT
I'm just worried it took them this many years to realise that... So am I. I hope that having finally realised this salient fact, the game will now proceed more quickly but, as I pointed out in my previous post, the fact that the game is said to have "transformed" into single player only rather than simply "dropped" the multi-player element, does seem to imply a major shift that will again require additional development time. As I have also suggested, if the single player story was originally only a small part of the whole, then a substantial amount of additional story content will need to be written or at least adapted from the multi-player plots to fit the single player perspective. I'm fairly convinced now that at the time Casey Hudson was writing the "continued storytelling after the main story" did relate to multi-player content rather than DLC for the single player.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2021 16:13:40 GMT
To be honest, everything I’ve seen leads me to suspect this is not a dramatic shift. For starters, I just don’t think they would radically change the design philosophy if it would create massive amounts of work this late in development. It’s possible the planned live service elements were mostly tacked on to a more traditional SP narrative, or meant to work in conjunction with it. I think a lot of people heard they were using Anthem’s code base awhile back and mistakenly took this to mean a lot more about DA4’s design when it actually most likely was more about taking advantage of Anthem’s implementation of basic functionalities that the base Frostbite engine didn’t support (like cutscene tools and event triggers) that would be more up to date than DAI’s implementation. That and a lot of people tend to leap to extreme assumption when they hear “live” service element, “Anthem with Dragons” etc.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2021 17:31:15 GMT
To be honest, everything I’ve seen leads me to suspect this is not a dramatic shift. For starters, I just don’t think they would radically change the design philosophy if it would create massive amounts of work this late in development. It’s possible the planned live service elements were mostly tacked on to a more traditional SP narrative, or meant to work in conjunction with it. I think a lot of people heard they were using Anthem’s code base awhile back and mistakenly took this to mean a lot more about DA4’s design when it actually most likely was more about taking advantage of Anthem’s implementation of basic functionalities that the base Frostbite engine didn’t support (like cutscene tools and event triggers) that would be more up to date than DAI’s implementation. That and a lot of people tend to leap to extreme assumption when they hear “live” service element, “Anthem with Dragons” etc. And the media has certainly been doing its job to fan those flames.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2021 17:44:23 GMT
You know what is really frustrating about this though? Just how unnecessary it is. I played Anthem pretty much as a SP game. Only once did i ever deliberately go and seek someone else out. Now if Anthem was SP hopefully we'd get more robust RP and companions but the line between MMO and SP RPG seems pretty thin. Only in terms of scale and implementation of a few systems.
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Post by ClarkKent on Feb 27, 2021 18:27:07 GMT
With any luck maybe we'll get another DA2(franchise goat) with this short dev schedule.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2021 18:31:42 GMT
With any luck maybe we'll get another DA2(franchise goat) with this short dev schedule. DA 2 isnt my favorite but i will say that it is amazing to me how good both of biowares most troubled devolopment games ended up being.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 22:06:27 GMT
I'm not into jigsaw puzzles, but the picture is not of the actual puzzle they are advertising … the good news is, the one they are advertising is probably better than the one shown. Why am I saying that? Because they list the puzzle as having 1000 pieces … that puzzle has about 35% of that (352 … i.e. 16x22 pieces). A guess, this is a picture of an older, less complete map and the new puzzle will be of the newer, larger, more complete and detailed Thedas map. Maybe a physical copy of the actual puzzle wasn't ready … hence the 26 May release date.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 27, 2021 22:11:26 GMT
I'm not into jigsaw puzzles, but the picture is not of the actual puzzle they are advertising … the good news is, the one they are advertising is probably better than the one shown. Why am I saying that? Because they list the puzzle as having 1000 pieces … that puzzle has about 35% of that (352 … i.e. 16x22 pieces). A guess, this is a picture of an older, less complete map and the new puzzle will be of the newer, larger, more complete and detailed Thedas map. Maybe a physical copy of the actual puzzle wasn't ready … hence the 26 May release date. They use this template for all their puzzles. It's just for advertising...
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 27, 2021 22:15:08 GMT
Also...PAGES!
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 28, 2021 0:34:28 GMT
You know what is really frustrating about this though? Just how unnecessary it is. I played Anthem pretty much as a SP game. Only once did i ever deliberately go and seek someone else out. Now if Anthem was SP hopefully we'd get more robust RP and companions but the line between MMO and SP RPG seems pretty thin. Only in terms of scale and implementation of a few systems. There's story content for WEEKS or even MONTHS in many modern MMORPGs and the writing can vary from solid to brilliant. In 2019 people lost their mind over how good story of Shadowbringers expansion to FFXIV was, among them at least a few Bioware devs. Again, it's more HOW something is done, rather than what it is, especially that both MP and SP games now can easily receive updates via the Internet. Anthem has had many issues unrelated to it being MP, including the fact that it was the first game of its kind and the entry level to the world and story. So for me it's more a question of - is there a cohesive vision for DA4 and its story and world and maybe 'WHAT kind of MP is there' (I agree with those who suspect the MP may be something akin to 'player drop in as companion' thing that doesn't mess with SP much) rather than being worried about 'how much MP or SP is there'.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 28, 2021 0:45:02 GMT
You know what is really frustrating about this though? Just how unnecessary it is. I played Anthem pretty much as a SP game. Only once did i ever deliberately go and seek someone else out. Now if Anthem was SP hopefully we'd get more robust RP and companions but the line between MMO and SP RPG seems pretty thin. Only in terms of scale and implementation of a few systems. Hopefully next time Bioware actually picks a direction on where to take their games.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 28, 2021 1:26:56 GMT
You know what is really frustrating about this though? Just how unnecessary it is. I played Anthem pretty much as a SP game. Only once did i ever deliberately go and seek someone else out. Now if Anthem was SP hopefully we'd get more robust RP and companions but the line between MMO and SP RPG seems pretty thin. Only in terms of scale and implementation of a few systems. There's story content for WEEKS or even MONTHS in many modern MMORPGs and the writing can vary from solid to brilliant. In 2019 people lost their mind over how good story of Shadobringers expansion to FFXIV was, among them at least a few Bioware devs. Again, it's more HOW something is done, rather than what it is, especially that both MP and SP games now can easily receive updates via the Internet. Anthem has had many issues unrelated to it being MP, including the fact that it was the first game of its time and the entry level to the world and story. So for me it's more a question of - is there a cohesive vision for DA4 and its story and world and maybe 'WHAT kind of MP is there' (I agree with those who suspect the MP may be something akin to 'player drop in as companion' thing that doesn't mess with SP much) rather than being worried about 'how much MP or SP is there'. Which is a shame because, while I hadn't taken advantage of it too often with the latest Ghost Recon games I did rather enjoy the ability to hop on with friends, form a squad, and do missions together...fun times...wild times...we got up to plenty of shannangans. So yeah that is where I would hope they'd have taken DA 4s MP and I am intrigued and a little dissapointed that was one of the options being considered apparently because I definitley would've created an alt character just to play with people should I/ they have been in the mood to do so. You know what is really frustrating about this though? Just how unnecessary it is. I played Anthem pretty much as a SP game. Only once did i ever deliberately go and seek someone else out. Now if Anthem was SP hopefully we'd get more robust RP and companions but the line between MMO and SP RPG seems pretty thin. Only in terms of scale and implementation of a few systems. Hopefully next time Bioware actually picks a direction on where to take their games. Thank you for the opprotunity for the segue. But I have been given this particular issue a GREAT deal of thought and I am just not sure how feasible it is. Yes obviously it is a way of doing business and maybe its the 'ideal' one even. But my limited study of game dev indicates that these kinds of decisions happen all the time...usually behind the scenes. Pretty much all the books on game dev I have ever read gives advice along the lines of 'don't have sacred cows, things can change'. And at the risk of beating a rather dead horse its far better that these conversations should happen rather then have a situation like with Cyberpunk or FO NV where the devs refused to cut features or scale down in scope, stuffed everything they could into these games, and ended up with far more *broken* products. But there are also two other examples I think that are rather pertinent that have been remembered/ come to my attention over the last few days which I hope demonstrates my overall point: A long time ago I was watching an interview with Daisy Ridley and she was going on about how, apparently, that the whole 'Rey Palpatine' thing was fluid and changing all the way to the last minute of production. Now assuming they weren't lying to her like they did with Mark Hamil back in the day over his parentage...well the critics and the people who hate the sequels once again took it as an opprotunity to trash them. "How could Disney be so stupid! They should've had all these plot points mapped out from the start!" And my reaction is...should they have? Much like in this current situation its the final product that matters. Rise of Skywalker still made stupid amounts of money for Disney and...while I cannot speak for everyone's personal opinion on the movie...I personally enjoyed the hell out of it. Whatever the mistakes, whatever changes had to be made, however much things had to change because reasons, all that matters was the final product. Tom Brady. Some may call him the greatest Quarterback in NFL history. But I made the comment to my wife that its because of his adaptability and perseverance. It does not matter how many interceptions he throws in a game and how many mistakes he makes, as long as he wins in the end, it does not matter if he is down 28-3 in the Super Bowl as long as he wins 34-28 in OT. It doesen't matter if the Bucaneers just barely scate by into the playoffs as a wild card team at an 11-5 record. All that matters is that he beat the Chiefs in the Super Bowl. Mistakes don't matter, flaws don't matter, issues with planning does not matter...as long as you can adapt and persevere through it and carry the day at the end. And since BioWare is my Tom Brady of game development I'll trust that they will get through this and DA 4 will still be quite amazing.
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Post by river82 on Feb 28, 2021 2:19:26 GMT
Pretty much all the books on game dev I have ever read gives advice along the lines of 'don't have sacred cows, things can change'. And at the risk of beating a rather dead horse its far better that these conversations should happen rather then have a situation like with Cyberpunk or FO NV where the devs refused to cut features or scale down in scope, stuffed everything they could into these games, and ended up with far more *broken* products. I wouldn't read "how to game dev" books, mainly because "game dev" is a catch all term that describes so many different types of jobs all with their own advice. "Cutting your darlings" seems to me advice aimed at writers or people in creative control, meanwhile most a lot of devs are contracted for programming jobs. And if people want to get into game writing they'd follow you know, traditional writing advice rather than game dev advice and kinda transition in. "How could Disney be so stupid! They should've had all these plot points mapped out from the start!" And my reaction is...should they have? There should be a consistency in the narration but not necessarily being mapped out. The problem with not mapping when each movie has a different creative control is that different people will naturally want to take things in different directions. So movie 1 felt like going in one direction, movie 2 felt like a change of direction, and movie 3 felt like damage control in response to 2. That's not ideal. And sure they did make a lot of money but the amount declined through the entire run. Traditionally movie 1 in a Star Wars trilogy does really well, movie 2 dips, movie 3 rebounds strongly. The lack of direction was so felt in the latest trilogy that there was no movie 3 rebound, and it made half the money at the box office as movie 1. That's ... not spectacular.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 28, 2021 4:09:08 GMT
Pretty much all the books on game dev I have ever read gives advice along the lines of 'don't have sacred cows, things can change'. And at the risk of beating a rather dead horse its far better that these conversations should happen rather then have a situation like with Cyberpunk or FO NV where the devs refused to cut features or scale down in scope, stuffed everything they could into these games, and ended up with far more *broken* products. I wouldn't read "how to game dev" books, mainly because "game dev" is a catch all term that describes so many different types of jobs all with their own advice. "Cutting your darlings" seems to me advice aimed at writers or people in creative control, meanwhile most a lot of devs are contracted for programming jobs. And if people want to get into game writing they'd follow you know, traditional writing advice rather than game dev advice and kinda transition in. "How could Disney be so stupid! They should've had all these plot points mapped out from the start!" And my reaction is...should they have? There should be a consistency in the narration but not necessarily being mapped out. The problem with not mapping when each movie has a different creative control is that different people will naturally want to take things in different directions. So movie 1 felt like going in one direction, movie 2 felt like a change of direction, and movie 3 felt like damage control in response to 2. That's not ideal. And sure they did make a lot of money but the amount declined through the entire run. Traditionally movie 1 in a Star Wars trilogy does really well, movie 2 dips, movie 3 rebounds strongly. The lack of direction was so felt in the latest trilogy that there was no movie 3 rebound, and it made half the money at the box office as movie 1. That's ... not spectacular. To be clear I was also using 'Game dev' in its general catch all sense and not neccessarily in terms of anything specific. And you can have consistency in narration whether or not you are planning out every plot point to specific detail before you start a project, or coming up with everything on the fly as you write and then even re write it. Which I rather vehemently disagree with the conventional wisdom about the ST. Especially considering how back loaded it now apparently is and given that it did have different creatives working on it...and given some ufortunate real world circumstances...I find the plot to be as consistent as if they had planned everything out from the start...for example. Edit: And even if it is good advise just for general creative people/ writers to begin with that only helps prove my point. Things change all the time and things can change fairly late in dev and still work out for the best. Edit 2: Actually I realize the Sequels might be a more pertinent example then I initially realized given that DA has also gone through a LOT of revision and audibles for their plans throughout the years and their story is also as fly-by-the-pants back loaded as the Sequels...so, imo, an example of how to do such things right should also be pertinent...and DA is another great example (so far) of back loaded story telling.
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Post by andydandymandy on Feb 28, 2021 4:32:25 GMT
Rise of Skywalker sucked. It was more interested in "fixing" what was supposedly wrong with Johnson's movie but the solutions were terrible. "People complained about Rey being a nobody so lets bring back the main puppet master of the other two trilogies and say he's the puppet master here, even though it makes no sense". "People complained about our female Asian character so lets only give her one scene and replace her with two new female characters who are female clones of Finn and Poe, basically". Its one of the worst JJ Abrams blockbusters I've ever seen. It was "course correction" gone bad.
I am more hopeful for DA4 because it does now seem that they devs are getting to make what they really wanted to make all along. There is a greater chance of something good coming out when the people making the thing are actually passionate about it and have a vision for what they want it to be and stick to it, instead of making something that has had a billion hands in it that whatever the original vision was got lost. That clearly happened to Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda and I hope it doesn't happen to DA4 (it still could).
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Kex Gusset @gibletgussetTaiwanese designer Yi-Fei-Chen is showing off her 'Tear Gun' that collects and freezes actual tears to shoot them back at the person who made her cry. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesWhoah hey wait, let’s not design anything we regret, and also a lot of my stories are actually very happy in the long run, not sure if that’s been mentioned lately?
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Feb 28, 2021 6:43:41 GMT
Kex Gusset @gibletgussetTaiwanese designer Yi-Fei-Chen is showing off her 'Tear Gun' that collects and freezes actual tears to shoot them back at the person who made her cry. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesWhoah hey wait, let’s not design anything we regret, and also a lot of my stories are actually very happy in the long run, not sure if that’s been mentioned lately? Finally, we can strike back.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 28, 2021 6:46:38 GMT
Kex Gusset @gibletgussetTaiwanese designer Yi-Fei-Chen is showing off her 'Tear Gun' that collects and freezes actual tears to shoot them back at the person who made her cry. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesWhoah hey wait, let’s not design anything we regret, and also a lot of my stories are actually very happy in the long run, not sure if that’s been mentioned lately? Finally, we can strike back. I honestly cannot imagine a more fitting end...
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Post by Beerfish on Feb 28, 2021 17:04:26 GMT
I prefer a cupcake coloured icing cannon.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 28, 2021 17:20:32 GMT
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahUpdate: everything left is Dragon Age stuff. BizDev kicked it up. And EPs get more stuff Anders' Mullet @elvhenberrythis is upsetting me so much THE DIIIISK Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahIts a "blue disc" from DAI. As in a disc from the first run used to test to ensure the manufacturing went right
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Feb 28, 2021 18:35:47 GMT
Still a disk with no case, Mark. It hurts us.
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Post by dawnold on Feb 28, 2021 19:13:15 GMT
Still a disk with no case, Mark. It hurts us. I read this in smeagol's voice for some reason.
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Post by Rascoth on Feb 28, 2021 19:31:40 GMT
Still a disk with no case, Mark. It hurts us. I read this in smeagol's voice for some reason. Disk is round... and precious... so no that far off.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 4,827 Likes: 11,934
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LadyofNemesis
4,827
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ladyofnemesis
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 28, 2021 20:13:05 GMT
I read this in smeagol's voice for some reason. Disk is round... and precious... so no that far off. and you can wear it on your finger...like a ring
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