Hyperbole to be sure, but I was being true to the X killed Y meme. Or the X didn’t fail, it was murdered by Y variant.
More accurate would be that for both ME and DA, the things old fans liked weren’t being carried forward or honored by newer iterations of the game. That was true even from ME2 to ME3, before there was serious commercial impact that was closer to being killed, like for MEA.
The point being, I no longer expect new Bioware to make games with the same fan appeal as old Bioware did.
Inquisitor: Is that innuendo? Sera: No, it's at the front!
Ben Gelinas @bengelinas #myfirstgamejob was at @bioware Edmonton, building a wiki to document and keep consistent Dragon Age’s massive n far-reaching lore. Much of that work became the World of Thedas books we made with @darkhorsecomics
MistressTrevelyan @muirnara What I wouldn't give to see you and @davidgaider return to @bioware. That'd be a dream come true for DA4.
Ben Gelinas @bengelinas It’s in great hands tho. @patrickweekes, @eplerjc, and other weirdos who sure predate me are on it.
David Gaider @davidgaider Indeed. They'll do a fantastic job, of that I have no fear.
By raising the awareness of the plans BW has for the next DA *now*, while they're still figuring out what to even do with the next game, there's no better time to have as many voices as possible out there expressing how they feel about this direction.
I think it’s probably a bit late for that, it’s actually something I think Jason has misrepresented in the article. All of the things he describes, especially the comments from developers he’s spoken too, sound as if they were given right when the reboot happened or that they don’t have any insight into what the Morrison team has been doing for the past 18 months, which would make sense since none of them seem to have been on that team.
Even down to a small team of designers, they have had ample time to hammer out their concepts and I doubt they would have had that DA4 teaser otherwise.
Well, if this is the case, and they have most or all of the general direction set, then they might as well officially announce the game and let us know a few basic things such as how they are generally handling multiplayer/GaaS and the game's general focus (is it still a heist game or more Solas focused; will the Inquisitor be playable, etc.).
I think it’s probably a bit late for that, it’s actually something I think Jason has misrepresented in the article. All of the things he describes, especially the comments from developers he’s spoken too, sound as if they were given right when the reboot happened or that they don’t have any insight into what the Morrison team has been doing for the past 18 months, which would make sense since none of them seem to have been on that team.
Even down to a small team of designers, they have had ample time to hammer out their concepts and I doubt they would have had that DA4 teaser otherwise.
Well, if this is the case, and they have most or all of the general direction set, then they might as well officially announce the game and let us know a few basic things such as how they are generally handling multiplayer/GaaS and the game's general focus (is it still a heist game or more Solas focused; will the Inquisitor be playable, etc.).
...Do you want Mark Darrah pop out of your screen and start shouting about revenue recognition and so on?
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Well, if this is the case, and they have most or all of the general direction set, then they might as well officially announce the game and let us know a few basic things such as how they are generally handling multiplayer/GaaS and the game's general focus (is it still a heist game or more Solas focused; will the Inquisitor be playable, etc.).
...Do you want Mark Darrah pop out of your screen and start shouting about revenue recognition and so on?
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Well, if this is the case, and they have most or all of the general direction set, then they might as well officially announce the game and let us know a few basic things such as how they are generally handling multiplayer/GaaS and the game's general focus (is it still a heist game or more Solas focused; will the Inquisitor be playable, etc.).
...Do you want Mark Darrah pop out of your screen and start shouting about revenue recognition and so on?
Post by The Elder King on Apr 11, 2019 7:01:15 GMT
The fact that the direction might be already set doesn’t mean that they’re ready to talk about it, expecially if they want to show the game while officially announcing it, which they probably weren’t ready for in December, and might want to wait until EA Play.
Besides, even if the direction is set, since the project restarted in 2017 the release year is going to be most likely 2021-2022 (there’s a slight change they might release it in late 2020, I guess, though I wouldn’t bet on it. But hey, Anthem was practically done, even in its problematic state, in 12-14 months. A late 2020 Release gives them 18-20 months from this moment, plus last year and part of 2017.), it doesn’t make sense to show off the game too early, considering that even if a direction is set, some things change in time, as well as features being cut or changed.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes When you sass @sylvf1 for a typo she made in a Slack thread, but then she edits the typo and now your sass looks like a mean reply to a perfectly sensible comment.
I know the "Doom & Gloom" talk is exhausting to hear, and no one really wants to feed that, but these articles have the potential push things in a positive direction in the long term for the staff at BW, and potentially better games as well.
No shade, Hrungr. It's the near hysterical predictions of some kind of DA Armageddon that's making me roll my eyes. Your concern is not that kind, and I don't think anyone's legit concern about how the employees are treated or which way DA is going is bad. I am concerned about those things as well, it's just not the catastrophe that others seem to be making of it. Maybe it's because I'm an old, but man, the way people get so worked up about it is something I've tried to understand but have a very hard time with. I've played this franchise from the day it first came out, and I have been on BW boards since 2003 off and on. I love DA like a baby. Each game is different, each one is what it is. The next DA will be what it is. Maybe you won't like it so much as this one or that one, maybe you'll even hate it and find another game to love like you love DA now. It's ok.
As a union member, I will say that I desperately hope they can form a union, because crunch like I've read about at BW and about a zillion other companies sucks ass and that kind of shit needs to stop. It's pretty frankly abusive, and it's no way to reach a deadline. Gamers will need to be ready to wait for games to be finished, no matter how long it takes. I think most people here would prefer a game finished properly without a soul destroying crunch time, but how long will they wait if a release date keeps changing? They're also going to need to pay more upfront for games, I'd say at least 100 bucks a pop for a basic,standard edition. Those are two realities that I'm willing to embrace for better workplace conditions for BW (and other video game company's)employees. I'm not so sure those people making the most racket about these articles are willing to wait and pay more for their games to alleviate the problem.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 11, 2019 23:03:14 GMT
Julilla Was the crunch even a matter of "gamers should be willing to wait" though? It didn't seem like they were pushing to get it out the door and crunching cus the gamers were demanding anything. For Anthem, it was a matter of fluffing around indecisively for multiple years and then finally receiving a hard deadline they had to meet and crunching to reach it. For DAI, they pushed the release date back a year and then crunched to finish it in that year.
And companies have complete control over when a game is announced to release, so there's no need to announce a release date till the game is in bug fix stage, for example. They don't have to be under any pressure except a reasonable development deadline set internally by the publisher, which can be managed with proper communication and expectation setting.
Now, if EA had pulled a DA2 on them, I'd see this as someone else's fault (namely EA's). But, from what I can tell, the problems we're seeing all seem to come back to bad time/project management practices from Bioware's management, a thing the DA management team itself has apparently internally acknowledged. (And thank god for that cus at least DA has management that doesn't have their heads up their butts.) None of the crunching was a result of the customer base or can be resolved by an increase in game price. (Not to mention 100 dollars is absolutely ridiculous. They'll price themselves out of the market if they charge that much. Many games in the industry barely warrant the current $60 price tag now.)
They're also going to need to pay more upfront for games, I'd say at least 100 bucks a pop for a basic,standard edition. Those are two realities that I'm willing to embrace for better workplace conditions for BW (and other video game company's)employees. I'm not so sure those people making the most racket about these articles are willing to wait and pay more for their games to alleviate the problem.
If the game is good, sales don't seem to be impacted by how long it takes to make, despite any complaints from gamers. And I'm sure someone's looking at Canada as at least one metric for price acceptance.
We used to pay $60 like the US, but then it went up to $70, $75, then $80 for the last few years (for a standard edition), the exchange rate playing the major role here. Though I'm willing to bet if our currency rebounds against the US dollar again, they won't be in any rush to roll back those prices. Revenue from video sales continued to go up though, but I have no doubt there is a ceiling where sales would measurable drop off. But I think the US has some room to move here.
Julilla Was the crunch even a matter of "gamers should be willing to wait" though?
No. For one thing it’s a new IP, so there’s no fan base to demand a new release yet. For another, the Anthem article kind of hints that the March 2019 deadline was driven entirely by EA. My guess is to book revenue before the end of the fiscal year.
Inquisitor: Is that innuendo? Sera: No, it's at the front!
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And companies have complete control over when a game is announced to release, so there's no need to announce a release date till the game is in bug fix stage, for example. They don't have to be under any pressure except a reasonable development deadline set internally by the publisher, which can be managed with proper communication and expectation setting.
A developer can request a delay, but ultimately it's left up to the publisher. Even with the publisher, depending on what type of market they predominantly operate in, the decision to delay a game can largely be decided by market forces. Certain publishers (most often, western publishers) often need to meet quarterly earnings, so shareholders are going to be looking for strong revenue performance during each quarter. If a publisher doesn't have any major titles releasing during a specific quarter, that looks bad to shareholders. It's ultimately what causes a lot of these publishers to not budge on extending release dates.
I do agree with you, however, that Anthems problems weren't related to its release date, and was more due to poor project management.
I think that game player expectations do have to do with it. I’ve seen complaints forever from fans about how much they lose interest if a game isn’t coming out within x amount of time, especially for DA. And yes, BW mismanaged their time with Anthem but felt they could get away with it because crunch. Management will not stop crunch unless they are forced to, they will continue to mismanage their fellow humans unless forced to. It’s just too easy to abuse employees this way. My idea is unionization, you might have a different one.
I don’t believe that 100 bucks for a game that has over 120 hours of gameplay and has massive replay potential is too much. Smaller games can charge less, but a AAA game packed full like DA warrants a higher price, imo. Doing that might help relieve the pressure of rushing to get a game out that’s nowhere finished. It will also mean a more polished game that can garner reviews which let people know it’s worth their money.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 12, 2019 2:36:55 GMT
Julilla There's no way you can guarantee someone will get 120 hours out of a game. Even if its main story is that long, and no game that I'm aware of outside of some MMORPGs has a main story that long, there's nothing guaranteeing someone will complete it. You can try selling someone on it being "less than a dollar per hour of fun", if you want, but its still $100 a pop. Plus, needing to guarantee that perception of value (you get 120 hours of content in this game!) is gonna lead to a lot of padding, gating, and NPC-less fetch quests being thrown in cus they are the easiest and most cost effective way to ensure the experience meets that arbitrary time mark.
Also, I don't see how making the game cost more eases the pressure on developers to meet their due date? There's always going to be a due date that they have to meet. The cost of the game to the consumer doesn't influence that one way or the other.
And companies have complete control over when a game is announced to release, so there's no need to announce a release date till the game is in bug fix stage, for example. They don't have to be under any pressure except a reasonable development deadline set internally by the publisher, which can be managed with proper communication and expectation setting.
A developer can request a delay, but ultimately it's left up to the publisher. Even with the publisher, depending on what type of market they predominantly operate in, the decision to delay a game can largely be decided by market forces. Certain publishers (most often, western publishers) often need to meet quarterly earnings, so shareholders are going to be looking for strong revenue performance during each quarter. If a publisher doesn't have any major titles releasing during a specific quarter, that looks bad to shareholders. It's ultimately what causes a lot of these publishers to not budge on extending release dates.
I do agree with you, however, that Anthems problems weren't related to its release date, and was more due to poor project management.
By "companies" I had meant the publisher and developer in concert. But yeah, market forces was something I didn't cover and that can definitely push the dev's/publisher's hand, regardless of what they want. Thanks.
Julilla There's no way you can guarantee someone will get 120 hours out of a game. Even if its main story is that long, and no game that I'm aware of outside of some MMORPGs has a main story that long, there's nothing guaranteeing someone will complete it. You can try selling someone on it being "less than a dollar per hour of fun", if you want, but its still $100 a pop. Plus, needing to guarantee that perception of value (you get 120 hours of content in this game!) is gonna lead to a lot of padding, gating, and NPC-less fetch quests being thrown in cus they are the easiest and most cost effective way to ensure the experience meets that arbitrary time mark.
Also, I don't see how making the game cost more eases the pressure on developers to meet their due date? There's always going to be a due date that they have to meet. The cost of the game to the consumer doesn't influence that one way or the other.
That's not the publisher's problem though. If people don't want to put that time into it, it's not the game for them. If the 20-40 hour games are their speed, they can go with a lower price offering from another company. The games we're talking about however are RPGs and they are massive. The content is there, whether someone finishes it or not, and the company deserves a fair price for their work.
Yes, there will always be a deadline. It doesn't always have to be so near that they have to crunch, though, at least not to that crazy extent. If they know they can take their time and that they will still get a fair price, some of the pressure would be off. I could be wrong about this part, especially if it's EA bullshitting and stroking it's shareholders and BW are captives to that corporate garbage. But it's an idea I had. Having some cushion with time and money seems desperately needed by the devs.
Jason Schreier @jasonschreier BioWare held a long all-hands meeting for staff on Wednesday to talk about various issues raised both internally and in Kotaku's reporting (production practices, Frostbite, etc). Couple of people I've talked to are optimistic about changes; others are far more skeptical.
Squidly @squuuidly It must be very interesting to get an update directly in response to your article
Jason Schreier @jasonschreier EA/BioWare still haven't officially talked to me, but it sounds like their internal response has been far, far more serious than their blog post last week made it seem
Prinny @talesofaprinny I doubt that they can flush Frostbite down the toilet now that it's in production. Maybe the next Anthem sequel, if there's any. (next year?)
Jason Schreier @jasonschreier I believe the response to that question was that it'd take much longer to start from scratch on Unreal for DA4 than it would to stick with what they've got
Alex Johnson @alexmjohnson573 If this gets Bioware back to their glory days, the gaming world owes you a debt of gratitude
Jason Schreier @jasonschreier As someone who has loved BioWare games since I first got the five-CD set for Baldur's Gate 1, I honestly just hope everyone working there can feel healthy and happy. (The bonus is: that'd lead to better games!)
Actually... stripping away the "impostor syndrome" sounds a good thing.
But I know! By 'ugly crying' I mean crying because they'll probably manage to turn us into emotional wrecks in a good way.
The optimistic part of me would see the connection of the tweet and the former Bioware employee that mentioned that Fallen Order will be focused on SP with no MP, in a way that would mean that maybe Bioware can focus on SP elements, and those that they’re more proficient to work on, instead of MP/life service elements. But the other part of me prefers to remain more neutral.
I am going to be quite pissed if EA allows Respawn to focus on SP elements, and not Bioware, though.
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