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Post by Sartoz on Jun 29, 2022 12:39:12 GMT
For some reason I was not expecting something as dubious as "committed campaign co-op" coming from Bioware's side. The more you learn I guess. Dodged a bullet though. Snip On another note there, BioWare can feel free to jettison that spider with hands asset. Preferably into the sun. We won’t mind.
Agreed ...
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 29, 2022 12:47:32 GMT
I don't know, Baldur's gate had a multiplayer coop setting (ditto biowares other early games). You can play the same plot as single player with companions or as multiplayer with other players, or mp with both if you don't have a full party of players. My Dad and I are enjoying playing that way right now alongside Imoen, Branwen, Dynaheir, and Minsc. Larian seems to be going for the same thing in Baldur's gate 3, which we are looking forward too. This is the only type of mp I am interested in. When they announced Anthem i had hoped it would be the old style co-op campaign with new and improved SWTOR style group conversations that let more than one player participate in the same convo (As opposed to story and talking to people being segregated to sp sections). snip
MP conversations can be toxic. I've experienced it with ME3MP. Never encountered such a fouled mouth before. There is no way to prevent toxic players from opening their mouth. The game would suffer for it, imo.
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Post by Solas on Jun 29, 2022 19:27:47 GMT
Just to let folks know, the Dragon Age: The Last Court archive (fan-collected screenshot archive stored in Google Drive) has moved location. The link to the new location is here. The OP in the SaveSerault/TLC Archive HQ thread (see link in my sig) has been updated to reflect this, and a post cross-posted there to advise there also.
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Post by melbella on Jun 29, 2022 23:35:07 GMT
Er, can you post the relevant comment? The web site is nagging for a log in.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 30, 2022 0:04:01 GMT
I don't know, Baldur's gate had a multiplayer coop setting (ditto biowares other early games). You can play the same plot as single player with companions or as multiplayer with other players, or mp with both if you don't have a full party of players. My Dad and I are enjoying playing that way right now alongside Imoen, Branwen, Dynaheir, and Minsc. Larian seems to be going for the same thing in Baldur's gate 3, which we are looking forward too. This is the only type of mp I am interested in. When they announced Anthem i had hoped it would be the old style co-op campaign with new and improved SWTOR style group conversations that let more than one player participate in the same convo (As opposed to story and talking to people being segregated to sp sections). snip
MP conversations can be toxic. I've experienced it with ME3MP. Never encountered such a fouled mouth before. There is no way to prevent toxic players from opening their mouth. The game would suffer for it, imo.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2022 1:31:35 GMT
Er, can you post the relevant comment? The web site is nagging for a log in. "You'll be hearing me on the new game when that comes out. Don't hold your breath, I'm not entirely sure when that is. But it's at some point next year, I hope."
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jun 30, 2022 8:07:32 GMT
. I was thinking of single player and multiplayer being different playthroughs, not a hop in hop out thing. But they’d still have to have the same story and it just seems excessively complicated to me to create and account for two to three different play states(both PCs are present, one pc and a 2nd pc is ai, one pc and no 2nd pc) all with the BioWare conversations they typically employ, and still make sure all three states get all the story info. I’d think this would result in either: a lot of auto dialog, little to no branching convos, and possibly bland default personalities for the two protagonists to simplify the writing for them when they aren’t player controlled and default dialogue would be required. Either that or you have a weird scenario where the 2nd pc never really chimes into a conversation from your pov and instead you always do all the talking. Which I think is what Divinity does, but it seems like it’d hit different if you are in a game with actual cutscenes involved in conversations. Speaking of which, I’m really hoping we see a loss of the cutsceneless conversations “feature” and return to actually having cutscenes for incidental conversations. Or at least a closer zoom in option.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 30, 2022 8:52:01 GMT
. I was thinking of single player and multiplayer being different playthroughs, not a hop in hop out thing. But they’d still have to have the same story and it just seems excessively complicated to me to create and account for two to three different play states(both PCs are present, one pc and a 2nd pc is ai, one pc and no 2nd pc) all with the BioWare conversations they typically employ, and still make sure all three states get all the story info. I’d think this would result in either: a lot of auto dialog, little to no branching convos, and possibly bland default personalities for the two protagonists to simplify the writing for them when they aren’t player controlled and default dialogue would be required. Either that or you have a weird scenario where the 2nd pc never really chimes into a conversation from your pov and instead you always do all the talking. Which I think is what Divinity does, but it seems like it’d hit different if you are in a game with actual cutscenes involved in conversations. I imagine they'd handle it similarily to how they handle you playing the same game with 3 sets of completely different companions having made different choices earlier in the game and in the imports. By writing variations for it. As for the conversations, the way they did it in swtor is that each party member must click to confirm they're ready before the cinematic starts. Then at the points where the pc gets to select from the dialogue wheel - all party members select from it, then rng determines whose character gets to say their dialogue choice. Each class (which is also your background) has their own voice actor dialogue variations (the sith warrior doesn't say 'yes I'll accept your quest' the same way a jedi consuler does, though there is a certain amount of recycling of certain lines for each character). If your playing solo then your character gets all the lines/choices. Where as the way Larians doing it at the moment (they're still in early access) is a little different. Not sure which is better. Haven't tried bg3's thing yet. But I would hope bioware would improve their multi participant convo cutscenes, I really liked that we could all speak in conversations. I second this, it's amazing how much of a difference being able to see a characters face makes. Edit: also I imagine that playing solo you would have the same type of npc companions with you, not versions of player 2-4 run by ai, I'm not sure why you'd need a default version of other players charaters to be present, let alone contributing to dialogue. Edit2: it occurred to me that maybe you were referring to the other players playing the companions in mp, as opposed to all players making their own custom character, since playing as one of the companion characters is an option in bg3 for players (even in sp) I've no experience with this, or how well making both an npc version and pc version of a character works. I feel like it would be simpler if companions aren't able to be pcs, that way they can always have the same dialogue. Differences between custom player characters dialogue choices would likely be the same for a group of mp characters as they are between single player pcs across different playthrough eg. Special dialogue for race, class, background. Which they would already be making for sp mode anyway. (Potentially different voices if they do that again)
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 30, 2022 10:40:22 GMT
It sounds like he's already recording lines. He was recording at least some lines back in the BTS video. If they hope to have the game out by the end of next year, you would hope he would already be recording lines. After all, the story should be pretty much written by now and it is just a case of translating it all to the screen. However, wouldn't the animation be adjusted to fit the dialogue and not the other way around? (I'm not an expert on these things so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). "You'll be hearing me on the new game when that comes out. Don't hold your breath, I'm not entirely sure when that is. But it's at some point next year, I hope." I could be wrong here, but it sounds to me like his work is done, except perhaps for a recall or two to tie up loose ends that appear during the testing. Naturally they haven't told him exactly when to expect the game because of the possibility for slippage but I'm guessing he is basing his hope for a 2023 release on what they have revealed and also on the time lag between recording his lines and release with Inquisition.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 30, 2022 12:03:30 GMT
For some reason I was not expecting something as dubious as "committed campaign co-op" coming from Bioware's side. The more you learn I guess. Dodged a bullet though. Yeah not a fan of the notion of Co-op. I don't think it likely to lead to good things for SP.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 30, 2022 12:52:27 GMT
I think the one "live service" thing I'd be okay with is having special markets where people can upload mods and stuff like that which players can buy/barter with in game - it would be a nice way of engaging the community and actually integrating modders into the game.
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Post by githcheater on Jun 30, 2022 14:07:18 GMT
Players can more-or-less do their own things. If one player starts a conversation with an NPC, the other players can watch it and suggest dialogue options by clicking on them. They can also wait for the NPC to free up and then have the conversation themselves, unless the story has moved on. Or they can wander off and get into fights on their own, ignoring their companions.Player Spokesperson: We whole-heartedly accept your offer of peace. Other players: You suck - Die scum!!! Sounds like excellent gameplay ... LOL
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 30, 2022 14:45:28 GMT
I really do wonder just what exactly they were cooking up before. It does seem like they were ticking off all things I don't want from a Dragon Age game.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2022 16:09:55 GMT
Once again, an awesome DA fan put together a hefty transcript, this time of a podcast interview with David Gaider. One-to-one: it's Dragon Age creator David Gaider!On BioWare, his new musical RPG, his life and more. www.eurogamer.net/one-to-one-its-dragon-age-creator-david-gaiderHere are a few highlights from the 1 hr 23 min. interview: - BioWare was in the process of changing internally around the time that David Gaider left. There are still a number of people there who he worked with and cared about, but a lot of others have moved on as well, so he thinks it is a very different company from the one he knew. - When DG was at BioWare, they always joked about doing a musical, maybe a musical DLC or something. The inspiration for this was that one Buffy the Vampire Slayer musical episode. He thought it would be cool to do something like that, like in the Fade or something. And everyone was really keen. As soon as he brought it up, the localization team and animators were trying to figure out how they could do this. Eventually, Mike Laidlaw said that "If we sell 10 million copies I'll let you do a musical DLC". They didn't reach that figure of course and when DG left the studio, he wanted to try doing that. - DG was starting to feel like he needed to move on sometime during Dragon Age: Inquisition. He had experienced writer burnout by this point, the first time this occurred was the worst when he was starting Neverwinter Nights. He suddenly hit this wall and couldn't write anymore, it was very upsetting. Everyone at BioWare including James Ohlen was very understanding. He had to find tools to cope with it and slowly teach himself how to deal with the blank page. He slowly came back, and then finally was good, but then eventually burned out again right after DAO, "haha, big surprise.." He was just working so much, and was writing the novels as well at that time; that was a lot of writing, constantly, that required laser-like focus, so it was no big surprise that he eventually burned out again. But David leaving BioWare was not due to burnout. He thinks that the company was just starting to change and he started to feel like he was always going to be in the position that he was in, which was a mid-level manager. He doesn't think they were really considering him to be a serious candidate for Creative Director. There are several reasons he could think of as to why that might be. He had seen people getting promoted past him at that point. He did enjoy writing and still does, and to a point he was like "I will always enjoy this". But he also wanted more say over what he was making and why he was making it. And so he got that urge, he wanted to try to feel his way up to some more responsibility. - [following on from the above point] There was also an element that the company itself was starting to change in a way that he did not care for. He felt that he had reached the end of his tenure on Dragon Age. He had written all the wizards and elves and demons stories that he had in him, so he was like, "I need to leave here". That wasn't him being like 'I need to leave BioWare", he was just feeling that he couldn't keep writing Dragon Age. Like, he could, he is a professional, he can write things because he's told to write them and make them as good as he can, as that's what you do as a professional. But it was like, he felt that he needed to move on, and he felt he would do a disservice to the project if he stayed. Patrick Weekes was another writer who was ready to step into his shoes, fresh, and who had only been working on the project for a couple of years at that point, so it was like, DG was set up to leave. - The project he moved on to next was what became Anthem and it really wasn't his cup of tea. He wasn't gelling with the team very well, because they were mostly people from Mass Effect. There was always a bit of a weird internal rivalry at BioWare between people who worked primarily on Dragon Age and people who worked primarily on Mass Effect. It was honestly like two studios under one roof, two different cultures, and it just happened. DG doesn't think that much could have been done about this, BioWare did try to shift people between projects as much as possible to avoid that, but really it was up to the project management, like the project directors, and each one had a different style that engendered a different culture (Mark Darrah versus Casey Hudson, they just had very opposite styles and so their teams reflected that). DG really didn't seem to gel as well with the people on Anthem, he thinks they had very different goals. A lot has been written about Anthem and he doesn't want to badmouth them, there was a lot of good stuff about Anthem too and he was sort of torn. He felt like "this isn't really what I want, maybe it's time for me to look somewhere else". - On Dragon Age: Dreadwolf: "I have been mostly surprised, just like everyone else. I know a little bit." There was a process before he left where they were like, "Okay, we need to dig everything that only exists in David's head and make sure we get it down on paper." They went through that process because there was a long time where there were lots of things that only existed in his head, like the Deep Deep Lore, until eventually they were like "That's a problem, we need to get this on paper." And DG was like "Alright, fine.". Ben Gelinas had been hired at the time to wrangle; they had all this online stuff, a lot of it was legacy, and no one knew which was which. Ben had to get rid of all the legacy stuff, codify their Wiki, make it organizable, and a lot of this was him dragging all the stories out of DG's head and getting them on paper, which was a fun process. BioWare never needed to ask DG stuff [about the lore of DA, after he left]. He said, "You know, a lot of times I'm sure they've gone in and changed stuff since I left, who knows, maybe the Deep Lore I once knew no longer applies". - He has secret hopes for the new game but thinks BioWare would never do them, so he won't talk about it because he thinks Dragon Age fans would get up in arms about it. So he won't say it, and he knows BioWare won't do it because he remembers when he brought up his plan that he wanted to do this with the rest of the DA team including Patrick Weekes, and they were horrified, like "Noooo, we can't do that". And he was like, "Yessss, but we are, and so he knows that with him being gone they are never going to do it, "So, alright fine. That's fine." And he knows he has to let go. He said there will come a point when the next game comes out and it won't be what he would have made. It can't be, and he will have to reconcile the fact that it's no longer his baby. They may have made decisions about things that change the world and he'll be like, "But... iiieee..." And he can't help that, and neither can they. But it has to be. It has to become what Patrick Weekes and John Epler want to make it. And he is sure it will be great. The thing he will have to figure out eventually is will he play it? Would he enjoy it? This is really the question - Could he enjoy it for what it actually is, or would he just be constantly second-guessing it and not playing the RPG, but instead sort of judging it maybe. He doesn't know. He'll have to suss out his feelings when it comes out. He thinks that in the end, he will probably need to go to a private room, play it, and then not talk to anyone publicly about what his feelings are. Maybe he'll talk to Patrick about it. - There were also a few other interesting topics he touched on, such as things about many slanted perspectives in the lore and known anecdotes like the origin story where James Ohlen handed him an atlas and asked him to create. But much of it was covered in the Bioware 25 Years book and by DG previously in the various Summerfall Studio DA playthrough Twitch streams.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2022 17:01:29 GMT
It sounds like he's already recording lines. He was recording at least some lines back in the BTS video. If they hope to have the game out by the end of next year, you would hope he would already be recording lines. After all, the story should be pretty much written by now and it is just a case of translating it all to the screen. However, wouldn't the animation be adjusted to fit the dialogue and not the other way around? (I'm not an expert on these things so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). "You'll be hearing me on the new game when that comes out. Don't hold your breath, I'm not entirely sure when that is. But it's at some point next year, I hope." I could be wrong here, but it sounds to me like his work is done, except perhaps for a recall or two to tie up loose ends that appear during the testing. Naturally they haven't told him exactly when to expect the game because of the possibility for slippage but I'm guessing he is basing his hope for a 2023 release on what they have revealed and also on the time lag between recording his lines and release with Inquisition. As I understand it, Voice Acting happens in several steps, and sometimes just ongoing. First it's the early recordings (esp. for new VAs/characters to the game), so the writers can write to the voice, and character design and animation integrate better. Then they come back once things start to come together. It could be several times refine the look, animation, trailers, early demos, and so on. But we're still over a year away, so they'd be in the middle of refining the story and quests. I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of VA-ing is still to be done. And further down the line, there'll inevitably be be triage and 11th hour story changes which means rewrites... and re-recordings. Though it might be a little different with Gareth this time around being both an established character and an NPC. He'll likely have far, far fewer lines to record and his dialogue less mutable to changes in quests, etc. So maybe he will have the bulk of it done...
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 30, 2022 17:04:25 GMT
Hm...
Gaider had his vision of DA4 and now we get a different vision... da:dw.
Very curius to know the two visions. ... especially the part that gaider wanted and what the "nooo" team is giving us. Also interesting is his view of Anthem (which wasn't my thing at all).
Will da:dw be the dragon age game we love?
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2022 17:19:13 GMT
Very curius to know the two visions. ... especially the part that gaider wanted and what the "nooo" team is giving us. I've been running scenarios in my head as to what level of heinous-ness would be required to make the other DA writers nope out. Really taking a wrecking ball to the setting with the Veil coming down? Doing something heinous to the previous surviving protags? Forcing the PC to kill all their companions at the end?
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2022 18:23:15 GMT
Corinne Busche 🏳️⚧️ @corinnebusche When you see something mindblowingly cool at work, and then writhe because you can’t share it on twitter dot com #gamedev
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Post by Julilla on Jun 30, 2022 18:35:27 GMT
Very curius to know the two visions. ... especially the part that gaider wanted and what the "nooo" team is giving us. I've been running scenarios in my head as to what level of heinous-ness would be required to make the other DA writers nope out. Really taking a wrecking ball to the setting with the Veil coming down? Doing something heinous to the previous surviving protags? Forcing the PC to kill all their companions at the end? Pretty sure that DG is not a huge fan of any happy ending, so yeah, must have been brutal! 😆
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2022 20:16:50 GMT
The Strix @the_strix What nobody tells you in AAA is that big projects break your heart. You see what it can be, you feel its visceral beating heart, and if you could just encapsulate that, it would have all the power in the world. And it never quite makes it there.
Must be the same for big movies.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Every time.
The great projects are the ones where the eventual player reaction is positive enough to let me forget everything that got cut for scope, or lost a key awesome bit and shipped at good enough.
Then I can celebrate what is instead of missing what could have been.
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 30, 2022 20:21:54 GMT
I've been running scenarios in my head as to what level of heinous-ness would be required to make the other DA writers nope out. Really taking a wrecking ball to the setting with the Veil coming down? Doing something heinous to the previous surviving protags? Forcing the PC to kill all their companions at the end? Pretty sure that DG is not a huge fan of any happy ending, so yeah, must have been brutal! 😆 He isn't. I recall that he didn't like the Geth-Quarian plot ending in ME3 upon finding out there was a compromise choice. I do think it's a bit weird, given that he himself wrote The Nature of the Beast in DAO, which has a compromise option, and in DAO you also could both Connor and Isolde, as well as finding a way to avoid 'killing' a Grey Warden in the end. He's overall not a fan of the third/compromise options, from what I remember, as he also mentioned that in regards of being forced to pick a side in DA2 at the end, which I disagreed with, or at least, to give more nuance on Hawke's views.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 30, 2022 23:30:50 GMT
I can understand not wanting unrealistic third options that work like "best of all worlds" because it tends to just make the other two choices feel less valid (why choose when you can have both?). In this way I do think the ball in DAI was handled well - we got several choices and none were the obvious "best outcome". In comparison the Geth/Quarian issue has a very preferable outcome (making peace) unless you really hate one or the other of the two races.
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Post by Kabraxal on Jul 1, 2022 0:01:11 GMT
I can understand not wanting unrealistic third options that work like "best of all worlds" because it tends to just make the other two choices feel less valid (why choose when you can have both?). In this way I do think the ball in DAI was handled well - we got several choices and none were the obvious "best outcome". In comparison the Geth/Quarian issue has a very preferable outcome (making peace) unless you really hate one or the other of the two races. Inquisition had some tough choices with no clear “better” choice like Origins had with most huge quests. Andromeda also took this route... that Salerian Pathfinder moment still causes me intense frustration in choosing. Hopefully DW retains that. I don’t want arbitrary a versus b choices though. They rarely feel realistic.
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 1, 2022 0:45:17 GMT
Well, EA decided to jump on the latest Twitter trend. Electronic Arts @eaThey’re a 10 but they only like playing single-player games - As you can imagine, the reactions have... not been kind.
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