inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 4, 2019 15:47:19 GMT
I think Vivienne's reaction was before she received the response from the Triumverate that we are told in the epilogue. With a Qun-loyal Bull and thus an alliance with the Qun, they offer for it to continue regardless of whether you disband the Inquisition or not, so it would be a pretty big step for the Divine to disregard this altogether and deliberately provoke the Qunari by attacking them, thus breaking the Llomerryn Accord. What all three Divines probably would reject would be the invitation to assist the Qun against Tevinter, although I can see both Leliana and Vivienne being politically savvy enough to keep them guessing rather than give a definite reply. Only speaking as someone who's only had Leliana as Divine, but I could absolutely see her using subversive means to get around certain, err, loopholes in the accords. I don't think Vivienne would be above that, either. Cassandra I could see deciding that the Qunari are in violation of the accords, and then just being above-board with her plans. I have never "allied" with the Qunari in DAI though, so my perspective is limited.
|
|
inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Jan 4, 2019 18:52:24 GMT
Only speaking as someone who's only had Leliana as Divine, but I could absolutely see her using subversive means to get around certain, err, loopholes in the accords. I wonder if the Chantry has already been doing this. Ostensibly they hate both Tevinter and the Qunari, and consider Tevinter to be heretics, but Tevinter does believe in the Maker at least. If there are any high-level Andrastians who are obsessed with the return of the Maker (the way several IRL religions have leaders obsessed with accelerating the end times), the way to bring that about is for the Chant to be sung in every corner of Thedas. If most Qunari aren’t interested in converting... there are other ways to fulfill that prophecy.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 4, 2019 19:00:19 GMT
Only speaking as someone who's only had Leliana as Divine, but I could absolutely see her using subversive means to get around certain, err, loopholes in the accords. I wonder if the Chantry has already been doing this. Ostensibly they hate both Tevinter and the Qunari, and consider Tevinter to be heretics, but Tevinter does believe in the Maker at least. If there are any high-level Andrastians who are obsessed with the return of the Maker (the way several IRL religions have leaders obsessed with accelerating the end times), the way to bring that about is for the Chant to be sung in every corner of Thedas. If most Qunari aren’t interested in converting... there are other ways to fulfill that prophecy. Oh, I bet there are a fair number of Petrices in the world.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2019 19:37:31 GMT
In fairness to the Qunari, what little we know about the Tevinter-Qunari conflict suggests that Tevinter fights very dirty. The Qunari catch Thedas’ attention by massing troops, but no one outside Par Vollen gives a fuck when Tevinter burns down a Qunari school. Tevinter could have been similarly nasty to Qunari civilians for years, and it wouldn’t have pinged on southern Thedas’ radar. That is very much the situation on Seheron, although I think Tevinter would have more trouble on Par Vollen itself. I think, though, that Seheron is likely the reason the Qunari signed the Llomerryn Accord. At that time Tevinter had managed to retake the island, which is of strategic importance to both sides, and were probably able to attack Par Vollen directly from there. The rest of Thedas had fought itself to standstill but had managed to push back the Qunari to the tip of Rivain and the Felicisima Armada controlled the seas to the east and south. So whilst the leadership probably didn't want to admit it to the rank and file, or record it in their histories, they did need time to recover. As WoT says, the other nations were in a pretty bad state after so many years of conflict and just wanted time to recover themselves. They may even have been afraid Tevinter might take advantage of their weakness, so they signed the peace treaty. If Tevinter had not been considered the enemy by the southern Chantry, then it is quite possible they could have made a decisive push against the Qun at this time and not had to compromise. Instead they agreed to the Qun having sovereignty over all the northern islands, which presumably included Seheron. Something of a cheek I think considering they didn't ask the Seheron people what they wanted. Tevinter naturally objected because they currently occupied Seheron and had no intention of giving it up so they refused to sign. That left Tevinter and the Qun still officially at war whilst the other nations could get on with re-building. They probably thought they had been clever in doing this but I do wonder about that. The Qun could never have conducted a proper war with the south with Seheron still in Tevinter hands. It left them too exposed on their western flank and meant all ships would have to sail down the eastern side of Thedas. Once they had retaken Seheron then they could start to plan a strategy for conquest of the mainland. That is why the Viddasala plot would have been such a coup had it succeeded. Conquering by stealth and then consolidating to leave Tevinter isolated. It is also why the leadership was trying to coax the Divine into helping them against Tevinter because even if they didn't supply troops, just making a trade embargo would weaken Tevinter. Still so long as the southern states don't take sides, Tevinter and the Qun can probably continue hammering each other indefinitely, unless, of course, Sten Arishok's strategy of increasing the number of agents across Thedas actually does pay off, but for that the writers would have to allow them to be deployed effectively.
|
|
inherit
1172
0
329
Augustei
133
August 2016
augustei
|
Post by Augustei on Jan 4, 2019 22:10:24 GMT
Only speaking as someone who's only had Leliana as Divine, but I could absolutely see her using subversive means to get around certain, err, loopholes in the accords. I wonder if the Chantry has already been doing this. Ostensibly they hate both Tevinter and the Qunari, and consider Tevinter to be heretics, but Tevinter does believe in the Maker at least. If there are any high-level Andrastians who are obsessed with the return of the Maker (the way several IRL religions have leaders obsessed with accelerating the end times), the way to bring that about is for the Chant to be sung in every corner of Thedas. If most Qunari aren’t interested in converting... there are other ways to fulfill that prophecy. Plus it'd be frigging awkward if the Maker comes back only to find a bunch of Qunari non-believers filling up Minrathous (The place he and Andraste are prophesied to first return) So can't let the Qunari go conquering Tevinter now.
|
|
inherit
688
0
1,912
UutIVvdPw7END0Ef
1,517
August 2016
uutivvdpw7end0ef
Bottom
|
Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 5, 2019 0:54:23 GMT
Don't mind me, just using this thread to dump my theory on the origin of the Qunari. ----- Before the introduction of the Qun the Qunari (or Kossith) were praying to animist gods, while it was outlawed after the introduction of the Qun, - Dragons were still held in high regard and even used for Gaatlok. (the Qun however isn't atheistic) On the other hand they believe Dragons must be destroyed as they embody chaos. Iron Bull: Dragons are the embodiment of raw power. But it's all uncontrolled, savage... So they need to be destroyed. Taming the wild. Order out of chaos. Have another drink. In regards to Animism, only Human tribes were (currently) known to practice it. (Neromenians, Chasind, Planasene, to a lesser extent - Avvar) There is proof that Qunari are infact Reavers, an entire race of it. Cole to Iron Bull: I like your horns, The Iron Bull. But they're dragon horns, not bull horns. You could have named yourself The Iron Dragon. Kieran (with Urthemiel's soul) to a Qunari Inquisitor: I noticed your blood. It doesn't belong to your people.
Inquisitor: That's not such a terrible thing, is it?
No. I just feel bad about what happened to your people. Corypheus in Corypheus's Memories side quest about a Qunari Inquisitor: (only available if sided with Templars) The Anchor has been stolen, by a beast of strange blood. Corypheus in Doom Upon All the World about Qunari Inquisitor: What do they call you, a "Qunari"? Your blood is engorged with decay, your "race" is not a race, It is a mistake! Cassandra also tells how Reavers developed Dragon-like appearance and behavior. ----- Taking that into account, especially Corypheus remark about Qunari not being a race, - why would they take Dragon blood in the first place? This brings us to "Codex entry: Ancient Elven Writing": (Inquisitor must drink from the Well of Sorrows to reveal the text) This elven writing found in the Arbor Wilds is so old there seems to be no way to learn what it means.
There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning.
"His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him."
For one moment there is an image of a shifting, shadowy mass with blazing eyes, whose form may be one or many. Then it fades. Someone dared to take the shape of a Dragon - "The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain" is key here. Ghilan'nain is believed to have created many animals while Dirthamen gave animals secrets. Andruil factors into this as she hunted down many animals including mortals, Ghilan'nain was offered godhood by Andruil if she would kill her creations and gifted them to her, she spared few "monsters of the air" (Dragons) which were part of the gift. This leads me to believe that Ghilan'nain possibly thought that if the animals/mortals were to take the form of the Dragons with the knowledge that Dirthamen gave them, they would be spared by Andruil, this clearly backfired. There is also a tale on how Dirthamen took back all the secrets he gave to the animals (except Bears) after he found what they did with them, this theoretically could have been in response to what happened to the one that took the form of a Dragon. ------- There are still qustions on how the Scaled/Reptilian Ones factor into this. Also the Qunari are unique in that they possess Magic but do not dream just like the Dwarves, this leads me to a second theory that Qunari are Dwarves: Its blood now flows through me, and its song fills the gaps in our history. I close my eyes and see glimpses of the world that was, before everything changed and the dwarven race broke in two. Something caused the Titans to fall, and the fate of my people fell with them. The Titan wants me to know. No, more than that. It wants me to understand. There is a loneliness to its song. "before everything changed and the dwarven race broke in two" - the Dwarves that drank the Dragon blood became the Qunari, gaining Magic abilities but not dreams. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_TitansIt's possible that both theories are true and that the one that took the Dragon form was a Reaver Dwarf later becoming the Qunari, mayhaps out of piety for loosing the Titans, Ghilan'nain and Dirthamen wanted to grant them Magic.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2019 0:59:49 GMT
Interesting theory. I don't know that I believe qunari as a race are descended from dwarves - if anything, some sort of elf/dragon hybrid seems more likely to me - and I always figured Qunari "don't dream" in the same way that they "don't go Tal-Vashoth", some Qun logic of NOPE WE DON'T VISIT THE FADE, THAT'S WHERE THE DEMONS LIVE EHEHEH.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2019 11:07:07 GMT
Andruil factors into this as she hunted down many animals including mortals, Ghilan'nain was offered godhood by Andruil if she would kill her creations and gifted them to her, she spared few "monsters of the air" (Dragons) which were part of the gift. I don't think the dragons were the creatures she gifted to Andruil as these already seemed closely connected with the Evanuris. Being able to shapeshift into dragons seemed the prerogative of the gods and their chosen (priesthood?). This is why the servant of Dirthamen committed a crime in adopting their form. People have suggested that the griffons could have been the creatures she gifted to Andruil since they are a hybrid creature that was likely created through magical experimentation. That said, it is likely the giants of the sea were the Cetus or Sea-dragon, so there is a link there. Still the Cetus could also be a hybrid. Something definitely happened to create the Qunari. Was it the Kossith who were affected or were they the original hybrid? Whilst Iron Bull suggests some action of the Tamassrans in the past, that would point to Qunari have done this and I think that highly unlikely. It had to have been far enough back the Old God Kieran would know about it. Corypheus gained a lot of his knowledge from the orb, so if that was the case then it would point to the Evanuris being responsible for them. Alternatively, the early Neromenians were known as "the dragons' children" and believed that their heroes would be reborn as dragons. Whilst it is known they worshipped the Old God Dragons, which would explain why they might consider themselves their children, they are also said to have drank the blood of unclean beasts, either wyverns or dragons. Nevarran dragon hunters who drank the blood of their prey were said to become more dragon-like overtime, so may be either the Neromenians or an earlier sect of humans overdid the drinking of dragon blood. The Neromenians were not native to Thedas but journeyed from over the sea (just as the Kossith in the Ancient period and the Qunari in the Steel Age did). So were the Neromenians just exploring for new lands or did they have to flee their homeland to escape their monstrous kin, resulting from Reavers having become a hybrid of the creatures whose blood they drank? I thought the dwarven race having broken in two referred to those still linked to the titans, like the sha-brytol, and those who were "liberated" by Mythal. Alternatively, Mythal's subjects were those who were "given dreams" and then ultimately imprisoned after her death, becoming the profane after their death. Whilst it is possible that the qunari/kossith were originally dwarves the only real link between the two is, as you say, the lack of dreams. However, it is not clear what the Qunari relationship is to the Fade because of the prohibition against having anything to do with it, that might mean psychologically they are stopped sub-consciously from making a connection or simply do not admit to it if they do. The fact that people rarely encounter them in the Fade may not be conclusive that they do not dream, since I think I am right in saying that we do seem to encounter dwarves there even though they do not. The Fade is so subject to distortion depending on the mind of the beholder and the spirits in the vicinity that I wouldn't take that as conclusive evidence of anything. I do feel the fact that the originally came from over the sea rather than underground suggests a link with ancient humans. Whether the ancient elves had anything to do with it is something I hope we shall discover eventually.
|
|
inherit
688
0
1,912
UutIVvdPw7END0Ef
1,517
August 2016
uutivvdpw7end0ef
Bottom
|
Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 5, 2019 13:21:58 GMT
I also thought about the Human connection, as they also practiced Animism and came from Par Vollen. It is said that Humans and Elves did coexist in the Brecilian Forest, the Fog Warriors also claim "great heroes who learned at the feet of elves". Considering the Qunari's pointed ears, they could have been Elf-blooded Reavers.
|
|
inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Jan 5, 2019 16:21:46 GMT
I also thought about the Human connection, as they also practiced Animism and came from Par Vollen. It is said that Humans and Elves did coexist in the Brecilian Forest, the Fog Warriors also claim "great heroes who learned at the feet of elves". Considering the Qunari's pointed ears, they could have been Elf-blooded Reavers. For that matter, isn’t the origin of humans themselves a big question mark? Elves are possibly descended from shades, qunari are some kind of mashup, dwarves come from the earth/titans. But where do humans come from? Are they related to elves or dwarves? Are they descended from shades? Did they emerge naturally on the northern continent, the way dwarves and titans are a natural feature of Thedas?
|
|
Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 955 Likes: 2,627
inherit
3354
0
2,627
Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
955
February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Little Bengel on Jan 5, 2019 16:40:58 GMT
I also thought about the Human connection, as they also practiced Animism and came from Par Vollen. It is said that Humans and Elves did coexist in the Brecilian Forest, the Fog Warriors also claim "great heroes who learned at the feet of elves". Considering the Qunari's pointed ears, they could have been Elf-blooded Reavers. For that matter, isn’t the origin of humans themselves a big question mark? Elves are possibly descended from shades, qunari are some kind of mashup, dwarves come from the earth/titans. But where do humans come from? Are they related to elves or dwarves? Are they descended from shades? Did they emerge naturally on the northern continent, the way dwarves and titans are a natural feature of Thedas? Oh, we all love to speculate on the origins of elves and dwarves and qunari, but I'm gonna call it and say that the origins of humans will consitute the real plot twist as far as Dragon Age's story goes. Mark my words, DA4 won't end with the Evanuris released, but with a major human plot twist. Involving the Executors, even! ...or maybe I'm just throwing words into the air, but who knows?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2019 17:08:37 GMT
Did they emerge naturally on the northern continent, the way dwarves and titans are a natural feature of Thedas? I suppose it depends if you count Thedas as just the area on the big map. Both elves and dwarves seem agreed that there was a time when there were no humans. However, since both elven folklore and dwarven Shaperate records have been thrown into doubt by DAI and its DLC, who knows what is true? Even WoT started an element of doubt by saying that scholars question where humanity came from and why they left their place of origin (although the same could be said of the Qunari and we know they came from over the sea). There is also the matter of the origins of the Alamarri/Avvar barbarians. Their lore states that they crossed the Frostback Mountains into Ferelden to escape a "shadow goddess". Now Solas confirmed that legend as true and apparently there was an aggressive spirit that led to their migration, so if the date is also correct -2415 Ancient that was only 700 years after the Neromenians arrived in Par Vollen. I wonder how big their numbers were originally as during that time they had to have grown sufficiently that some felt the need to migrate all the way south to the area of what presumably became the Dales or even further. Plus the lore states that the Neromenians split into the tribes/kingdoms of Qarinus, Tevinter and Barindur in addition to Neromenian with no mention of the additional southern tribes of the Alamarri, Inghirsh and Planasene, so did the latter group come from somewhere else, the far west for example? There are also meant to be another mysterious group, the Parladians on the islands to the north of Par Vollen, who seem possessed of magic that could repel both the Tevinter Imperium at its height and the Qunari. Then beyond the Anderfels to the west there is the settlement of Laysh who reportedly had dealings with a trader people known as the Voshai, whose ships were captained by dwarves and were solely interested in acquiring lyrium, yet apparently no sign of any connection with elves. So what are we meant to make of these people? Did the scope of the elven empire only reach to the edges of the current map? Has the Blight affected them at all? The Voshai were said to have disappeared for a time, only to return recently with reports of a cataclysm in their homeland. What might that be? Also the Hero of Ferelden apparently headed west in an attempt to find a cure for the taint. We are never told if they were successful or why they thought the west was the place to go. This is why it is rather bemusing that they decided to throw even more mysteries into the current setting, the titans for example, when there were so many they had already established in the areas beyond the map, which I thought would have been fascinating to explore.
|
|
inherit
688
0
1,912
UutIVvdPw7END0Ef
1,517
August 2016
uutivvdpw7end0ef
Bottom
|
Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 5, 2019 17:23:26 GMT
In regards to the origin of Humans all we know is that the Maker supposedly created them after the creation of the Veil, there is also no recorded Human history of a time before the Veil. Mayhaps their creation is tied to The Forgotten/Forbidden Ones.
Hopefully we will know more if DA4 takes place in Par Vollen. (and Fex too)
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2019 19:28:52 GMT
In regards to the origin of Humans all we know is that the Maker supposedly created them after the creation of the Veil, there is also no recorded Human history of a time before the Veil. This is based off the history of creation as given in the Chant, which also makes no mention of elves or dwarves or titans, so can pretty much be discounted. Vivienne also claims there is no history of a time before the Veil but it would seem that every race has suffered some sort of amnesia when it comes to that period. The humans arrived before the Quickening, therefore it follows that they must have arrived before the creation of the Veil. Andruil is also said to have grown tired of hunting mortal men. Before the Veil all elves were immortal. Solas confirms that fact. So she could only have been hunting humans. They were probably very primitive and we know from Dalish legends that apparently they were regarded as little more than troublesome parasites. The fact that Andruil hunted them for sport suggests they were considered little more than beasts. However, this was just before she started hunting in the Void, so was probably near to the time when Mythal was murdered. It is interesting to note that in certain Alamarri legends the wolf is a protector of men, so it may well be that either Fen'Harel or his followers gave refuge to humans as well as run away elves. Their poetry contains elements of an ancient elven text that was found in the Temple of Mythal and referred to how they were having to learn how to survive after the "Wolf failed/won" and they lost "eternity". How did an ancient elven text find its way into the poetry of the Alamarri if they weren't even created until after the Veil? The Alamarri were clearly present at that time and were originally said to have come from the Arbor Wilds side of the Frostback Mountains. Their own legends even seem to recall the event of the raising of the Veil: "So Korth spoke to the Lady of the Skies and lifted Belenas from the earth into her realm, which could not be reached even by the most intrepid climber, and there he dwells in peace." Belanas, the home of the Gods, is very similar to the elven word Bellanaris, which means eternity and the Dalish know the city at the heart of the Fade as the Eternal City and home of their gods. They have put in too many links between the Alamarri and the ancient elves for them not to have co-existed for a period.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2019 22:46:46 GMT
There is also the matter of the origins of the Alamarri/Avvar barbarians. Their lore states that they crossed the Frostback Mountains into Ferelden to escape a "shadow goddess". Now Solas confirmed that legend as true and apparently there was an aggressive spirit that led to their migration, so if the date is also correct -2415 Ancient that was only 700 years after the Neromenians arrived in Par Vollen. What the frick-frack? I learn new things every day!
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 0:12:45 GMT
I wouldn't take it as gospel that humans arrived before "the Quickening", we don't even know exactly what that was. It's entirely possible that long life was only ever a privilege available to the Evanuris in the first place. I don't think we can rely on any piece of the lore to be wholly reliable, and the only character we know who saw any of it first hand can't be trusted either.
|
|
inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Jan 6, 2019 1:16:48 GMT
I wouldn't take it as gospel that humans arrived before "the Quickening", we don't even know exactly what that was. It's entirely possible that long life was only ever a privilege available to the Evanuris in the first place. I don't think we can rely on any piece of the lore to be wholly reliable, and the only character we know who saw any of it first hand can't be trusted either. No one can be trusted, all the information is being manipulated by the Deep Snake.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 1:17:45 GMT
I wouldn't take it as gospel that humans arrived before "the Quickening", we don't even know exactly what that was. It's entirely possible that long life was only ever a privilege available to the Evanuris in the first place. I don't think we can rely on any piece of the lore to be wholly reliable, and the only character we know who saw any of it first hand can't be trusted either. No one can be trusted, all the information is being manipulated by the Deep Snake. Baby, you can always trust my Deep Snake.
|
|
inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Jan 6, 2019 1:23:33 GMT
No one can be trusted, all the information is being manipulated by the Deep Snake. Baby, you can always trust my Deep Snake. None can say, but I will say yes as that would Fit My Theories.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 6, 2019 9:19:26 GMT
I wouldn't take it as gospel that humans arrived before "the Quickening", we don't even know exactly what that was. Well it seems we do. Now I could accept that World of Thedas was just an inaccurate Chantry scholar's take on events that could later be disproved, or Dalish muddled lore concerning their history. However, there is a condensed World State history in the Dragon Age Keep, which you would think would only shown things that are definite rather than speculative. There aren't many ancient dates there but there are some (under the Ferelden Section) and this is even stranger because it pushes the arrival of humans further back in time to -3900, whilst it states that the elves lost their immortality in -2850. Note it does not say "felt the Quickening", which could be something that they only became aware of at that time but that they "lost their immortality" at that date, which is as good as saying that is when the Veil was raised. Now I don't know if anyone has ever queried this with the writers of the game. I have certainly pointed out this discrepancy in the dates here on the boards many times before but I don't do Twitter so have to rely on other people to raise these things with them. Who is responsible for the Keep? Why would they put a date that shows the humans arriving in Thedas 1000 years before the elves lost their immortality if that was not the case? I hardly think it is a typo since 1 and 9 are at opposite ends of the keyboard. It also states that -2800 was when the first human mages appeared, suggesting that before that time there were no human mages. Which sort of supports my theory that magic probably entered the human race through interbreeding with elves who stayed in circulation with them after the Veil was raised rather than retreating into Uthenera. World of Thedas had that date for the Old Gods whispering to humanity from the Black City but that was a mistake since it contradicted the idea that Thalsian was the first human mage to be contacted (by Dumat) in -1585, which is much later in time and led to the worship of the Old Gods. It is also worth noting that the date for the founding of Arlathan was also pushed back further in time to -8400, nearly 1000 years earlier than World of Thedas but really that is immaterial considering it was so long ago and did not really have an impact on later history in the way that the other events did.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 6, 2019 9:29:46 GMT
What the frick-frack? I learn new things every day! I was rather surprised when Solas said this. In World of Thedas it was suggested that scholars thought the Alamarri had merely been escaping some natural disaster. So to have Solas actually confirm the legend of an ancient people rather than debunk it was rather gratifying. Of course we know that the Avvar consider the spirits to be their gods, so likely the Alamarri did too, so that explains why they saw the spirit as a "goddess" that presumably was sufficiently powerful they felt the need to escape it. Solas says that the spirit was now lonely and forgotten because it had driven away the very people that gave it purpose. Presumably it must have been tied to the land in that region in some way, like the Lady of the Forest in the Brecillian Forest, or surely it would have simply followed them? Bear in mind he also solved the mystery of Barindur by telling us it had been buried in a volcanic eruption, Pompeii style. Why people of the time weren't aware of this and saw physical evidence of it occurring rather than having no idea why it disappeared is something of a puzzle but the assertion of some that it was the wrath of Dumat would, I suppose, fit with this. So this legend was given a perfectly natural and mundane explanation.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 7, 2019 3:43:08 GMT
^ Gosh, I really do love the Avvar take on spirits and spirituality. I think theirs is probably the belief system I'm most aligned with in Thedas... that, or the dwarves and their reverence for the Stone and the Ancestors. We're so lucky to get to play in a world with such rich lore, ugh. 😍
-
On an unrelated note, making the bold assumption that race selection will return in the next game and that we'll have a new protagonist (either just the one or as part of a dual-protagonist scenario, whichever)... I've been musing over little things like what a qunari protag's surname will be (since we always get one), and what kind of look and personality I'll give mine to differentiate her from my Adaar. Obviously no point in dwelling on it too much, as those are a lot of assumptions and we have no idea what role we're going to play in the next game anyway so it's far too early for me to develop a concrete character, but it's fun to think about for now. I think I'd like to make a character in her thirties since my Inquisitor was in her twenties, give her a totally different facial structure, skin tone, different horns, etc. from my Adaar. Maybe someone more cynical. I'm hoping we have a background other than Vashoth - I'd be okay with a "fill in the blank" conversation like we had with Josie, only this time you could say that you're Tal-Vashoth, or you follow the Qun, or you grew up on Seheron in the midst of the fighting, etc. And as the romance thread is kicking into high gear, I've been thinking about what sort of relationship this incredibly vague character in my head would be drawn to.
Anyone else thinking similar thoughts?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 7, 2019 9:30:24 GMT
^ Gosh, I really do love the Avvar take on spirits and spirituality. I think theirs is probably the belief system I'm most aligned with in Thedas... that, or the dwarves and their reverence for the Stone and the Ancestors. We're so lucky to get to play in a world with such rich lore, ugh. 😍 Yes, I felt the same about the Avvar. I am always a big annoyed though that the human belief system was proven to be valid and had considerable merits in my eyes but the Dalish one was totally rubbished. So as a human, particularly a Ferelden, they could look at the Avvar and see a definite alternative to the Chantry that was in keeping with the ancient traditions of their people. The elves, on the other hand, would seem to have no credible traditional alternative if they don't want to worship tyrant mage lords. The dwarves religion has also been pretty much confirmed as being genuine. They were originally connected with the Titans, the Pillars of the Earth, and clearly still feel some sort of latent connection when underground. It also makes sense they lose this "stone sense" if they spend too much time on the surface. If more is revealed about their religion, it will probably only strengthen their belief that they are the Stone's Children. Their reverence for the Ancestors also makes sense, bearing in mind our knowledge of life after death in Thedas is negligible but there does seem a way in which a person's spirit can live on and still be invested in the fate of the living, plus the dwarves have only ever seen them as someone to emulate rather than gods to worship. I'd be interested to know exactly who the Kossith worshiped before they were converted to the Qun. Also I'm longing to find out more about Koslun, what era he lived in and whether the modern philosophy of the Qun is an accurate interpretation of his "ideal society".
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 7, 2019 9:37:03 GMT
Maybe someone more cynical. I'm hoping we have a background other than Vashoth - I'd be okay with a "fill in the blank" conversation like we had with Josie, only this time you could say that you're Tal-Vashoth, or you follow the Qun, or you grew up on Seheron in the midst of the fighting, etc. And as the romance thread is kicking into high gear, I've been thinking about what sort of relationship this incredibly vague character in my head would be drawn to. Ideally I'd love some sort origins type introduction considering we are going up north to a totally different set up than we had in the south. If we are able to play different races and are simply given a brief background in the character creator and a "fill in the blanks" situation in game, then I definitely intend playing an entirely different character to any of my Inquisitors. The problem is that until we know more about what they intend for the PC in the next game I am rather loath to develop a backstory or more than one, only to find they are totally useless for the scenario we are given. For example, I had planned on playing a city elf in DAI, only to discover that wasn't even an option, yet to my mind a city elf servant would have had more reason to be at the Conclave than a Dalish spy (who should never have been allowed anywhere near the main proceedings and the Divine since their allegiance is literally shown on their face).
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Jan 7, 2019 16:13:52 GMT
^ Gosh, I really do love the Avvar take on spirits and spirituality. I think theirs is probably the belief system I'm most aligned with in Thedas... that, or the dwarves and their reverence for the Stone and the Ancestors. We're so lucky to get to play in a world with such rich lore, ugh. 😍 Yes, I felt the same about the Avvar. I am always a big annoyed though that the human belief system was proven to be valid and had considerable merits in my eyes but the Dalish one was totally rubbished. So as a human, particularly a Ferelden, they could look at the Avvar and see a definite alternative to the Chantry that was in keeping with the ancient traditions of their people. The elves, on the other hand, would seem to have no credible traditional alternative if they don't want to worship tyrant mage lords. The dwarves religion has also been pretty much confirmed as being genuine. They were originally connected with the Titans, the Pillars of the Earth, and clearly still feel some sort of latent connection when underground. It also makes sense they lose this "stone sense" if they spend too much time on the surface. If more is revealed about their religion, it will probably only strengthen their belief that they are the Stone's Children. Their reverence for the Ancestors also makes sense, bearing in mind our knowledge of life after death in Thedas is negligible but there does seem a way in which a person's spirit can live on and still be invested in the fate of the living, plus the dwarves have only ever seen them as someone to emulate rather than gods to worship. I'd be interested to know exactly who the Kossith worshiped before they were converted to the Qun. Also I'm longing to find out more about Koslun, what era he lived in and whether the modern philosophy of the Qun is an accurate interpretation of his "ideal society". I don't know that I'd call the Avvar "more valid" - it's more closely aligned with how I view the world of Thedas, but ultimately if one disagrees that a spirit can be considered a god, or if one has faith that the Maker exists as a separate entity entirely, or that the Dalish gods are worthy of worship regardless of their flaws (much like the Hellenic gods), none of them seem more valid than the others, to me. Many religions - including the ancient Greeks - had legends of mortal or half-divine people who ascended to full godhood, like Herakles (who was kind of a huge dick but was still widely worshipped because he was strong and overcame trials and that was considered reason enough to revere him). Of course, it could be that there was an elven religion BEFORE the Evanuris stepped up, or at least a loose belief system. If elves used to be spirits, what do spirits believe in..? 🤔 Food for thought, anyway. I too am longing to find out more about Koslun! I encourage characters to abandon the Qun if I see an opportunity, but man do I think those cantos are genuinely beautiful. They are actual poetry. I don't know that the Kossith, whoever they were, necessarily worshipped anything. Is there evidence for that or is it just speculation? I guess I've always pictured their pre-Qun society as vaguely Krogan-ish and warlike, where the fury of their dragons' blood made it difficult to live peaceably. Basically a bunch of people with Reaver tantrums until Ashkaari Koslun came along. But then, why don't Vashoth exhibit these same behaviors..? Is it because they find their own codes to live by, or assimilate into the wider culture of wherever they are? Maybe someone more cynical. I'm hoping we have a background other than Vashoth - I'd be okay with a "fill in the blank" conversation like we had with Josie, only this time you could say that you're Tal-Vashoth, or you follow the Qun, or you grew up on Seheron in the midst of the fighting, etc. And as the romance thread is kicking into high gear, I've been thinking about what sort of relationship this incredibly vague character in my head would be drawn to. Ideally I'd love some sort origins type introduction considering we are going up north to a totally different set up than we had in the south. If we are able to play different races and are simply given a brief background in the character creator and a "fill in the blanks" situation in game, then I definitely intend playing an entirely different character to any of my Inquisitors. The problem is that until we know more about what they intend for the PC in the next game I am rather loath to develop a backstory or more than one, only to find they are totally useless for the scenario we are given. For example, I had planned on playing a city elf in DAI, only to discover that wasn't even an option, yet to my mind a city elf servant would have had more reason to be at the Conclave than a Dalish spy (who should never have been allowed anywhere near the main proceedings and the Divine since their allegiance is literally shown on their face). I understand! I'm hoping for an origins-style intro as well, even if we all start in the same place but with a different role (sort of like if we'd been able to play the Conclave sequence, where Adaar is there as a mercenary, Cadash/Lavellan is spying on the proceedings, etc.) And yeah, creating an in-depth backstory this far out is a bit useless since we don't know anything beyond something something Tevinter, something something Qunari, something something Solas. That's why I'm keeping my character concept so vague, I guess. When multiple races were announced for DAI, I intended to play a redheaded DW dwarven rogue. My canon ended up being a 7 ft. tall qunari Rift Mage, so you never know.
|
|