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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 1:26:50 GMT
Yasuke served Oda Nobunaga for a year, a man can't speak Japanese or let alone master a weapon for an entire year. If they wanted a foreign samurai why not use William Adam aka Miura Anjin instead. They only use Yasuke because he's a black man to improve their ESG score. Records from the Jesuits (Some of our only contemporary records of him) apparently mention that he understood at least some Japanese and Nobunaga enjoyed talking with him, often taking him as an attendant when he roamed Kyoto. He was also apparently very strong, which may have been reason enough to make him a warrior with some training. He doesn't have to be a blade master. William Adams is an interesting historical figure in his own right, but that would require radically shifting the historical setting to 1600 or later instead of 1582, long after Nobunaga's demise, Toyatomi Hideoshi's rule, and in the closing stages of Japanese unification unto the Tokugawa Shogunate. They wouldn't just be exchanging Yasuke for William, they'd be radically changing the whole setting of the story. Adams also never wielded a sword for the Shogun, his appointment as a samurai was a matter of court rank rather than service as a warrior. Are they prominently featuring Yasuke for the sake of ESG or some ideological agenda? Maybe... but he is an interesting historical figure, there's nothing credulity straining about his presence, nor any particular reason to prefer Adams over him. It also helps that we know very little about him, which makes him great fodder for historical fiction within the bounds of known history, they might have chosen him for that reason. While there are valid cases for critique when history is stretched to the breaking point to accommodate representation or similar concerns, this isn't one of those cases. Samurai has no qualms in what type of weapon they can use. Yasuke doesn't have any history of being a warrior of any kind to be considered as samurai, he's a Jesuit slave ffs. Its much better for them to feature William Adams and his friendship to the Tokugawa Clan. It's much cooler to feature the Battle of Sekigahara though.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 1:38:25 GMT
To be fair, you don’t have to be a blade wielding warrior to be considered Samurai. Women of the Samurai class were considered to be Samurai despite 95% of them never wielding a sword, bow nor polearm in anger. That being said, they had records of their place in the hierarchy of their clan and family. Something that doesn’t exist for the gentlemen we are talking about.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 1:58:10 GMT
If he was a Samurai, then there should have been plenty of Japanese sources since the Japanese are mighty strict about their record-keeping, especially when it comes to clans, families and servants. Plus, as far as his fate is concerned, the most accepted version is that he was sold back into slavery to the Jesuits. Not much of a Samurai if he is sold back into foreign slavery. If you think every historical samurai has a wealth of documentation to their name, I’m going to have to assume you’re only thinking of the sons of prominent families and clan. Historical records indicate Nobunaga basically had his men going out to hire samurai as vassals locally. He apparently hired a young Sumo wrestler as one of his personal samurai once. Nobunaga gave Yasuke a stipend, a decorated sword, and a private residence, all of which is consistent with what he would have given a samurai he recruited. In fact the thread I linked notes that the source saying Yasuke was given a stipend uses the word translated as stipend exclusively to refer to payments made to samurai. According to that thread I linked there are many historical figures we know were samurai due to the context of the time, but are not explicitly described as such in contemporary records, so in that way Yasuke would not be unusual. After Oda Nobunaga was betrayed and died, his betrayer captured Yasuke and returned him to the Jesuits (After that he disappears from the historical record and we don’t know what happened to him). Yasuke was only a samurai at Nobunaga’s pleasure, that his enemies wouldn’t respect him as one doesn’t mean anything as to whether he was one.
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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 2:16:31 GMT
Yasuke is merely a pet for Nobunaga to be considered a samurai. Samurai is an honorable position in Japanese society to be tarnished.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 2:21:49 GMT
Samurai has no qualms in what type of weapon they can use. Yasuke doesn't have any history of being a warrior of any kind to be considered as samurai, he's a Jesuit slave ffs. Its much better for them to feature William Adams and his friendship to the Tokugawa Clan. It's much cooler to feature the Battle of Sekigahara though. Well we don’t know he had no experience as a warrior. We don’t know anything about his history prior to arriving in Japan. Like I said in another post though, Nobunaga apparently once recruited a sumo wrestler he liked as a samurai, so it doesn’t seem like he required formal combat experience. I get that you might prefer Adams’ story, but there’s no reason the friendship between Yasuke and Nobunaga along with all the drama surrounding the latter’s death can’t be just as interesting.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 2:24:41 GMT
If he was a Samurai, then there should have been plenty of Japanese sources since the Japanese are mighty strict about their record-keeping, especially when it comes to clans, families and servants. Plus, as far as his fate is concerned, the most accepted version is that he was sold back into slavery to the Jesuits. Not much of a Samurai if he is sold back into foreign slavery. If you think every historical samurai has a wealth of documentation to their name, I’m going to have to assume you’re only thinking of the sons of prominent families and clan. Historical records indicate Nobunaga basically had his men going out to hire samurai as vassals locally. He apparently hired a young Sumo wrestler as one of his personal samurai once. Nobunaga gave Yasuke a stipend, a decorated sword, and a private residence, all of which is consistent with what he would have given a samurai he recruited. In fact the thread I linked notes that the source saying Yasuke was given a stipend uses the word translated as stipend exclusively to refer to payments made to samurai. According to that thread I linked there are many historical figures we know were samurai due to the context of the time, but are not explicitly described as such in contemporary records, so in that way Yasuke would not be unusual. After Oda Nobunaga was betrayed and died, his betrayer captured Yasuke and returned him to the Jesuits (After that he disappears from the historical record and we don’t know what happened to him). Yasuke was only a samurai at Nobunaga’s pleasure, that his enemies wouldn’t respect him as one doesn’t mean anything as to whether he was one. Yeah sounds like revisionist history to me, especially on a Reddit board of all places. How do we have information about a sumo wrestler becoming Samurai but not Yasuke? Also he was allegedly granted all these alleged luxuries but there’s very little sources of his Samurai status and he was not executed nor committed suicide as a Samurai as was demanded for members of that class; he was instead sold into slavery. He was never a Samurai, he was a servant and a curiosity.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 2:40:03 GMT
Yasuke is merely a pet for Nobunaga to be considered a samurai. Samurai is an honorable position in Japanese society to be tarnished. The Japanese would seem to disagree that considering Yasuke a samurai is some sort of insult, as there does not seem to be any serious contention among historians or the wider Japanese public that he was not a samurai. I think you’re imagining “samurai” to be a much more exalted position than it actually was, at least on the low end of it. Fundamentally, a lord could make anyone they wanted into a samurai if they wanted them to serve them. Why would you think Yasuke being a samurai “tarnishes” them?
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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 2:52:07 GMT
Yasuke is merely a pet for Nobunaga to be considered a samurai. Samurai is an honorable position in Japanese society to be tarnished. The Japanese would seem to disagree that considering Yasuke a samurai is some sort of insult, as there does not seem to be any serious contention among historians or the wider Japanese public that he was not a samurai. I think you’re imagining “samurai” to be a much more exalted position than it actually was, at least on the low end of it. Fundamentally, a lord could make anyone they wanted into a samurai if they wanted them to serve them. Why would you think Yasuke being a samurai “tarnishes” them? Japan used to have a strict caste system that a mere slave wouldn't become a samurai because a daimyo demands it.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 2:53:26 GMT
Yeah sounds like revisionist history to me, especially on a Reddit board of all places. How do we have information about a sumo wrestler becoming Samurai but not Yasuke? Also he was allegedly granted all these alleged luxuries but there’s very little sources of his Samurai status and he was not executed nor committed suicide as a Samurai as was demanded for members of that class; he was instead sold into slavery. He was never a Samurai, he was a servant and a curiosity. Yes, the centuries old source is “revisionist history”…. The contemporary sources are unambiguous that Nobunaga gave these things to Yasuke, you can contest that he was a samurai if you want but these are not contested. Again, you’re conflating samurai as a social class and samurai as a job. There are highly ranked samurai that could expect good treatment, but lower ranked samurai would be entirely dependent on their masters for any kind of status or protection. For a foreigner like Yasuke, that would be doubly so (supposedly Mitsuhide basically called him a subhuman bestial foreigner before sending him to the Portuguese). His treatment is proof of his captor’s xenophobia, not that he wasn’t a samurai.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 3:00:38 GMT
Yeah sounds like revisionist history to me, especially on a Reddit board of all places. How do we have information about a sumo wrestler becoming Samurai but not Yasuke? Also he was allegedly granted all these alleged luxuries but there’s very little sources of his Samurai status and he was not executed nor committed suicide as a Samurai as was demanded for members of that class; he was instead sold into slavery. He was never a Samurai, he was a servant and a curiosity. Yes, the centuries old source is “revisionist history”…. The contemporary sources are unambiguous that Nobunaga gave these things to Yasuke, you can contest that he was a samurai if you want but these are not contested. Again, you’re conflating samurai as a social class and samurai as a job. There are highly ranked samurai that could expect good treatment, but lower ranked samurai would be entirely dependent on their masters for any kind of status or protection. For a foreigner like Yasuke, that would be doubly so (supposedly Mitsuhide basically called him a subhuman bestial foreigner before sending him to the Portuguese). His treatment is proof of his captor’s xenophobia, not that he wasn’t a samurai. Or that his social class doesn’t exist and he was considered lower than even their untouchable class. Hence, not a Samurai. Not even the Eta were sold as foreign slaves and they were not considered human by the rest of the social classes. Anyway: twitter.com/hashtag/SummerGameFest?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1791137883367030845%7Ctwgr%5Eea56e949448619fa37d6447e2239ef27088513fc%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.playstationlifestyle.net%2F2024%2F05%2F16%2Fsummer-game-fest-2024-details-playstation-xbox%2F&src=hashtag_clickWhere is Konami?
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 3:04:47 GMT
The Japanese would seem to disagree that considering Yasuke a samurai is some sort of insult, as there does not seem to be any serious contention among historians or the wider Japanese public that he was not a samurai. I think you’re imagining “samurai” to be a much more exalted position than it actually was, at least on the low end of it. Fundamentally, a lord could make anyone they wanted into a samurai if they wanted them to serve them. Why would you think Yasuke being a samurai “tarnishes” them? Japan used to have a strict caste system that a mere slave wouldn't become a samurai because a daimyo demands it. …Yet it seems Nobunaga did exactly that several times, because who would stop him? The most famous example probably being his successor Toyatomi Hideoshi, who was a peasant of no samurai lineage whatsoever, whom Nobunaga allowed to rise through the ranks. He became one of the most powerful Samurai and Daimyo in Japanese history.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 3:07:17 GMT
Or that his social class doesn’t exist and he was considered lower than even their untouchable class. Hence, not a Samurai. Not even the Eta were sold as foreign slaves and they were not considered human by the rest of the social classes. Mitsuhide may have thought so, evidently Nobunaga thought differently.
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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 3:10:20 GMT
Japan used to have a strict caste system that a mere slave wouldn't become a samurai because a daimyo demands it. …Yet it seems Nobunaga did exactly that several times, because who would stop him? The most famous example probably being his successor Toyatomi Hideoshi, who was a peasant of no samurai lineage whatsoever, whom Nobunaga allowed to rise through the ranks. He became one of the most powerful Samurai and Daimyo in Japanese history. Hideyoshi fought numerous wars in order to earn his rank as a Samurai. Yasuke never ever fought such wars, he is a mere pet for Nobunaga’s amusement.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 3:23:48 GMT
…Yet it seems Nobunaga did exactly that several times, because who would stop him? The most famous example probably being his successor Toyatomi Hideoshi, who was a peasant of no samurai lineage whatsoever, whom Nobunaga allowed to rise through the ranks. He became one of the most powerful Samurai and Daimyo in Japanese history. Hideyoshi fought numerous wars in order to earn his rank as a Samurai. Yasuke never ever fought such wars, he is a mere pet for Nobunaga’s amusement. Oh? I thought Japan had a strict caste system? Where did this meritocracy come from? Could it be that the Daimyo could ignore the caste system because literally nobody could stop them? A peasant or a slave could become a samurai when and if the daimyo decided to confer that status upon them. They may not be as high in status as those born into a prestigious family, but they were still samurai. Nobunaga granted samurai rank to Hideoshi because of his achievements. Nobunaga granted samurai rank to that sumo wrestler because he was a big wrestling fan and liked the idea of having the guy as a retainer. Nobunaga granted samurai rank to Yasuke because he was big, strong, exotic, interesting and Nobunaga liked the idea of having the guy as a retainer. Ieyasu granted Samurai rank to Adams because he had useful knowledge and Ieyasu liked the idea of keeping him as retainer. You need to let go of the idea that samurai were all landed aristocrats, that was not the case. You can call Yasuke a pet if you like, but he was still a samurai. Why does this idea bother you so much in a way that has clearly never bothered centuries of Japanese scholars before?
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 3:29:43 GMT
He’s a footnote and Ubisoft is trying to make a full novel of him despite him never being a Samurai. If he was a Samurai, he would have been executed and there would have been some record of his existence as one but no. He was a servant whose social status was not even worthy of death. Regardless, we will never know the truth. But Ubisoft will make him the greatest warrior in Japan and he will surpass Miyamoto Musashi. After which we will all cringe and wish Ghost of Tsushima 2 comes out faster. PS4 Players Still Represent Half Of The PlayStation Audience, Three And A Half Years After The PS5’s Launch www.psu.com/news/ps4-players-still-represent-half-of-the-playstation-audience-three-and-a-half-years-after-the-ps5s-launch/Hell yeah brothers! Past Gen Rise up!
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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 3:31:38 GMT
Hideyoshi fought numerous wars in order to earn his rank as a Samurai. Yasuke never ever fought such wars, he is a mere pet for Nobunaga’s amusement. Oh? I thought Japan had a strict caste system? Where did this meritocracy come from? Could it be that the Daimyo could ignore the caste system because literally nobody could stop them? A peasant or a slave could become a samurai when and if the daimyo decided to confer that status upon them. They may not be as high in status as those born into a prestigious family, but they were still samurai. Nobunaga granted samurai rank to Hideoshi because of his achievements. Nobunaga granted samurai rank to that sumo wrestler because he was a big wrestling fan and liked the idea of having the guy as a retainer. Nobunaga granted samurai rank to Yasuke because he was big, strong, exotic, interesting and liked the idea of having the guy as a retainer. You need to let go of the idea that samurai were all landed aristocrats, that was not the case. You can call Yasuke a pet if you like, but he was still a samurai. Why does this idea bother you so much in a way that has clearly never bothered centuries of Japanese scholars before? Where are the so called "records" that Yasuke is a samurai? If he's a samurai, such individual would never be sent back to Jesuits as a slave after Nobunaga died.
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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 3:41:21 GMT
He’s a footnote and Ubisoft is trying to make a full novel of him despite him never being a Samurai. If he was a Samurai, he would have been executed and there would have been some record of his existence as one but no. He was a servant whose social status was not even worthy of death. Regardless, we will never know the truth. But Ubisoft will make him the greatest warrior in Japan and he will surpass Miyamoto Musashi. After which we will all cringe and wish Ghost of Tsushima 2 comes out faster. PS4 Players Still Represent Half Of The PlayStation Audience, Three And A Half Years After The PS5’s Launch www.psu.com/news/ps4-players-still-represent-half-of-the-playstation-audience-three-and-a-half-years-after-the-ps5s-launch/Hell yeah brothers! Past Gen Rise up! PS5 is merely a game console mostly consist of remakes and remasters that are most often got censored on released or if released uncensored it will get hit by day one patch.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 3:43:53 GMT
He’s a footnote and Ubisoft is trying to make a full novel of him despite him never being a Samurai. If he was a Samurai, he would have been executed and there would have been some record of his existence as one but no. He was a servant whose social status was not even worthy of death. Regardless, we will never know the truth. But Ubisoft will make him the greatest warrior in Japan and he will surpass Miyamoto Musashi. After which we will all cringe and wish Ghost of Tsushima 2 comes out faster. PS4 Players Still Represent Half Of The PlayStation Audience, Three And A Half Years After The PS5’s Launch www.psu.com/news/ps4-players-still-represent-half-of-the-playstation-audience-three-and-a-half-years-after-the-ps5s-launch/Hell yeah brothers! Past Gen Rise up! PS5 is merely a game console mostly consist of remakes and remasters that are most often got censored on released or if released uncensored it will get hit by day one patch. Yeah, we are now entering the latter stage of live for the PS5 and there’s barely any reason to upgrade.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 3:47:34 GMT
Where are the so called "records" that Yasuke is a samurai? If he's a samurai, such individual would never be sent back to Jesuits as a slave after Nobunaga died. Sure they would, if the person who captured him was a xenophobic prick. That much seems true, as Mitsuhide gave this reasoning for sending him to the Portuguese: “… is an animal (bestial) and knows nothing, nor is he Japanese, so do not kill him, and place him in the custody at the cathedral of Padre in India” Being a samurai just means he was a warrior sworn to the service of Nobunaga because Nobunaga desired that it be so, it doesn’t mean anyone else in Japan had to respect Nobunaga’s decision especially after he died.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 4:03:41 GMT
He’s a footnote and Ubisoft is trying to make a full novel of him despite him never being a Samurai. If he was a Samurai, he would have been executed and there would have been some record of his existence as one but no. He was a servant whose social status was not even worthy of death. Regardless, we will never know the truth. But Ubisoft will make him the greatest warrior in Japan and he will surpass Miyamoto Musashi. After which we will all cringe and wish Ghost of Tsushima 2 comes out faster. There are literally thousands of samurai you have never heard of and whose only mention in historical text is that they served some lord at such time, if even. Samurai status does not mean the biographers suddenly start breaking down your door, particularly if it came at the whim of a rather idiosyncratic daimyo. We know for a fact that Yasuke wielded a sword in Nobunaga’s service, he was captured while defending Nobunaga’s son after his betrayal and death. We know that he was being paid and compensated like a samurai. We know that he was known to accompany Nobunaga in both journey’s to Kyoto and surveys of his newly conquered lands. That sounds like more than “a servant” to me. Yes, Yasuke is a historical footnote of which little is known, that is precisely what makes him such fertile ground for historical fiction.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 4:15:23 GMT
He’s a footnote and Ubisoft is trying to make a full novel of him despite him never being a Samurai. If he was a Samurai, he would have been executed and there would have been some record of his existence as one but no. He was a servant whose social status was not even worthy of death. Regardless, we will never know the truth. But Ubisoft will make him the greatest warrior in Japan and he will surpass Miyamoto Musashi. After which we will all cringe and wish Ghost of Tsushima 2 comes out faster. There are literally thousands of samurai you have never heard of and whose only mention in historical text is that they served some lord at such time, if even. Samurai status does not mean the biographers suddenly start breaking down your door, particularly if it came at the whim of a rather idiosyncratic daimyo. We know for a fact that Yasuke wielded a sword in Nobunaga’s service, he was captured while defending Nobunaga’s son after his betrayal and death. We know that he was being paid and compensated like a samurai. We know that he was known to accompany Nobunaga in both journey’s to Kyoto and surveys of his newly conquered lands. That sounds like more than “a servant” to me. Yes, Yasuke is a historical footnote of which little is known, that is precisely what makes him such fertile ground for historical fiction. All this and still not recorded as a Samurai despite apparently being in Nobunaga’s entourage and no retention of alleged Samurai status once his Lord perished. Also a Samurai is a Retainer but not all Retainers are Samurai. He was a servant, not a Samurai. Also, I’m going to share something very interesting and often misunderstood facts about sword laws in pre Meiji Era Japan: Commoners were allowed to carry short swords like Ko-Wakizashi and Tanto knives despite the numerous attempts to disarm the populace with size restrictions and sword hunts...generally speaking. Yasuke carrying a short sword or large knife on the field doesn’t make him anymore special than a commoner since he's just an armed servant.
BTW Boss, is something going on with the Mobile viewer? It keeps giving me the desktop view.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on May 17, 2024 10:34:42 GMT
I'm not sure why Yasuke being a full samurai would be a bridge too far in a series that brought us such events as Robert de Sable dying in trial by combat, Niccolo Machiavelli being a middle-aged man and senior assassin at a time when he was actually nineteen years old, and Caterina Sforza's daring prison escape. And that's just the stuff from the games I've played! The series has never been historically accurate before, why would it start now?
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Post by blah23 on May 17, 2024 13:05:09 GMT
I'm not sure why Yasuke being a full samurai would be a bridge too far in a series that brought us such events as Robert de Sable dying in trial by combat, Niccolo Machiavelli being a middle-aged man and senior assassin at a time when he was actually nineteen years old, and Caterina Sforza's daring prison escape. And that's just the stuff from the games I've played! The series has never been historically accurate before, why would it start now? Maybe they should feature a male Japanese Assassin instead of some mere black slave since its from Japan.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 13:22:06 GMT
I'm not sure why Yasuke being a full samurai would be a bridge too far in a series that brought us such events as Robert de Sable dying in trial by combat, Niccolo Machiavelli being a middle-aged man and senior assassin at a time when he was actually nineteen years old, and Caterina Sforza's daring prison escape. And that's just the stuff from the games I've played! The series has never been historically accurate before, why would it be now? AC used to strive for as much historical authenticity as possible; like removing Altair’s crossbow and having the scan of Notre Dame be so accurate that it’s being used in the Cathedral’s repairs. That being said, they’ve been going completely off the rails with alternate universes, mythology and even revisionist history codex entries in the past few entries. CREATIVE ASSEMBLY IS DEVELOPING A STAR WARS TOTAL WAR GAME, IT’S CLAIMED insider-gaming.com/total-war-star-wars/A Star Wars Total War entry. That might get me back in the game.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 15:08:24 GMT
There are literally thousands of samurai you have never heard of and whose only mention in historical text is that they served some lord at such time, if even. Samurai status does not mean the biographers suddenly start breaking down your door, particularly if it came at the whim of a rather idiosyncratic daimyo. We know for a fact that Yasuke wielded a sword in Nobunaga’s service, he was captured while defending Nobunaga’s son after his betrayal and death. We know that he was being paid and compensated like a samurai. We know that he was known to accompany Nobunaga in both journey’s to Kyoto and surveys of his newly conquered lands. That sounds like more than “a servant” to me. Yes, Yasuke is a historical footnote of which little is known, that is precisely what makes him such fertile ground for historical fiction. All this and still not recorded as a Samurai despite apparently being in Nobunaga’s entourage and no retention of alleged Samurai status once his Lord perished. Also a Samurai is a Retainer but not all Retainers are Samurai. He was a servant, not a Samurai. Also, I’m going to share something very interesting and often misunderstood facts about sword laws in pre Meiji Era Japan: Commoners were allowed to carry short swords like Ko-Wakizashi and Tanto knives despite the numerous attempts to disarm the populace with size restrictions and sword hunts...generally speaking. Yasuke carrying a short sword or large knife on the field doesn’t make him anymore special than a commoner since he's just an armed servant.
BTW Boss, is something going on with the Mobile viewer? It keeps giving me the desktop view.
I have no idea why you are so invested in the notion that Yasuke could not have been a samurai. Yasuke did not merely fight for Nobinaga, he received what evidence suggests was a samurai’s stipend from him. You’re fighting against the consensus of historians that he was probably a samurai for… no discernible reason beyond “black samurai must be woke nonsense”. Even if the historical record does not definitively state he was a samurai, it’s far from a leap to say he was in a work of historical fiction, especially far from the worst reach AC has been guilty of even in its early entries. It certainly isn’t this implausible idea you’re making it out to be.
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