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Post by smilesja on May 17, 2024 16:12:19 GMT
All this and still not recorded as a Samurai despite apparently being in Nobunaga’s entourage and no retention of alleged Samurai status once his Lord perished. Also a Samurai is a Retainer but not all Retainers are Samurai. He was a servant, not a Samurai. Also, I’m going to share something very interesting and often misunderstood facts about sword laws in pre Meiji Era Japan: Commoners were allowed to carry short swords like Ko-Wakizashi and Tanto knives despite the numerous attempts to disarm the populace with size restrictions and sword hunts...generally speaking. Yasuke carrying a short sword or large knife on the field doesn’t make him anymore special than a commoner since he's just an armed servant.
BTW Boss, is something going on with the Mobile viewer? It keeps giving me the desktop view.
I have no idea why you are so invested in the notion that Yasuke could not have been a samurai. Yasuke did not merely fight for Nobinaga, he received what evidence suggests was a samurai’s stipend from him. You’re fighting against the consensus of historians that he was probably a samurai for… no discernible reason beyond “black samurai must be woke nonsense”. Even if the historical record does not definitively state he was a samurai, it’s far from a leap to say he was in a work of historical fiction, especially far from the worst reach AC has been guilty of even in its early entries. It certainly isn’t this implausible idea you’re making it out to be. Yeah all we know is that Yasuke was a Samurai but not for how long. Not surprised of his inclusion in the slightest.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 16:28:31 GMT
All this and still not recorded as a Samurai despite apparently being in Nobunaga’s entourage and no retention of alleged Samurai status once his Lord perished. Also a Samurai is a Retainer but not all Retainers are Samurai. He was a servant, not a Samurai. Also, I’m going to share something very interesting and often misunderstood facts about sword laws in pre Meiji Era Japan: Commoners were allowed to carry short swords like Ko-Wakizashi and Tanto knives despite the numerous attempts to disarm the populace with size restrictions and sword hunts...generally speaking. Yasuke carrying a short sword or large knife on the field doesn’t make him anymore special than a commoner since he's just an armed servant.
BTW Boss, is something going on with the Mobile viewer? It keeps giving me the desktop view.
I have no idea why you are so invested in the notion that Yasuke could not have been a samurai. Yasuke did not merely fight for Nobinaga, he received what evidence suggests was a samurai’s stipend from him. You’re fighting against the consensus of historians that he was probably a samurai for… no discernible reason beyond “black samurai must be woke nonsense”. Likewise, I don't know why you are so invested in the notion that Yasuke was more than a glorified servant. The complete lack of evidence of his alleged class as a Samurai in any Japanese source and being sold into foreign slavery instead of getting executed tells me that no one took his alleged Samurai status seriously. He was a curiosity to be gawked at, little different than a court jester.
Consensus or Conjecture? There's practically no evidence, not to mention the language barrier.
Nioh had Yasuke as a Black Samurai, do you see me complaining? No? Because its a pseudo-historical fantasy and not meant to push an agenda. Can't say the same about Ubisoft who hired a consultant who glamorizes "transgenerational sex" between young boys and Buddhist Monks.
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Post by Little Bengel on May 17, 2024 16:56:46 GMT
They turn a black slave named Yasuke a samurai when historically he is a mere sword bearer for Oda Nobunaga. Never believe Ubisoft would tackle homosexuality in a very competent manner. Spiderman 2 has a wrong flag displayed on Miles Morales' room. Modern game developers are so incompetent these days. Every single discussion of Yasuke I’ve read in the past ten years or so I’ve been aware of him has described him as “The Black Samurai” and he is consistently portrayed as such in Japanese and Western media where he was appeared. If this is a mistake, it’s hardly a novel idea from Ubisoft. As far as I can gather, his exact status is somewhat ambiguous since he isn’t super well documented, but there’s compelling reason to think he may have been a samurai in rank and he certainly seems to have born weapons for Nobunaga. Its well within the bounds of a reasonable liberty to take with historical fiction. The askhistorians thread was interesting: www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/IUGkhAZKe3 (And just about unanimously affirms he was probably a samurai) Man, I feel for you.
You've provided here what should be a pretty conclusive source, and still you get what are unnecessarily elaborate variations on "nuh uh", with barely any engagement with the points raised in the post, if any.
I salute your perseverance.
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Post by Evil on May 17, 2024 16:57:01 GMT
Right: Disambiguation time:
Western connotations for the term "samurai" don't apply to real historical Japan, any more than our myths about "honour" do. Its probably better to use the term "retainer" instead, as pretty much all the translated works in my collection do, to avoid that nonsense clouding the issue.
You either were a retainer, or you weren't.
Nobunga paid him an annual stipend (扶持), albeit briefly due to Nobunga being betrayed and dying. Thats enough to make him a retainer... briefly. The betrayer not continuing the stipend doesnt change that. It just made him an EX-retainer.
Also, concerns about Japans Confucian caste system have little relevance here. It became a big thing during the EDO period. The Sengoku period was before Edo. People tend not to care about social conventions much during nation wide civil wars, strangely enough. Nobunga gave even less fucks about such things than most. This is the guy who put guns in the hands of former peasants and laughed his ass off at 'em mowing down idiots who tried to fight back with lance and bow. If the warlord who's killing anybody who gets in his way says Yasuke is in his good books, you gonna argue with him?
Boycott Assassins Creed because of the online requirement bullshit, not because of this non-issue.
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Post by General Mahad on May 17, 2024 17:29:27 GMT
New PlayStation Handheld Reported Again, Supposedly Runs PS4 Games
Third time's the charm....hopefully.
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Post by Heimdall on May 17, 2024 20:46:36 GMT
Likewise, I don't know why you are so invested in the notion that Yasuke was more than a glorified servant. The complete lack of evidence of his alleged class as a Samurai in any Japanese source and being sold into foreign slavery instead of getting executed tells me that no one took his alleged Samurai status seriously. He was a curiosity to be gawked at, little different than a court jester. No evidence? The evidence has been laid out for you several times, you’ve just declared any evidence short of an explicit declaration that he was a samurai in period text as insufficient. That isn’t a lack of evidence, you’re just demanding a standard of proof that historians who actually specialize in the period do not think is required to conclude that he was probably a samurai. You also keep ascribing a level of inherent aristocratic respect to being a samurai that, as Evil pointed out, is a bit anachronistic to this time period. Also keep in mind that those honor myths were hyped up by the Samurai themselves in the following centuries of relative peace to emphasize their importance in the Shogunate caste hierarchy. Don’t treat them as fact. Even if it was fitting, it truly does not matter whether anyone else took him seriously as a samurai as long as his daimyo did; and Nobunaga took it seriously enough to pay him a samurai’s stipend. There is practically no evidence of Yasuke’s life at all, but what evidence exists tells us he received what was probably a samurai’s stipend and he fought for Nobunaga. Neither of these things jive with your “he was nothing but a court jester or a dancing monkey” theory. The most you have is a lack of explicit statement declaring him a samurai and that his treatment after Nobunaga’s death doesn’t match whatever preconception you have about how a samurai would be treated. Then why don’t you spend your time complaining about that instead of this complete non-issue of a black man who probably was a samurai appearing at the appropriate time and place to his historical counterpart?
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Post by smilesja on May 18, 2024 5:35:19 GMT
Boycott Assassins Creed because of the online requirement bullshit, not because of this non-issue. You know that some gamers are going to do the latter lol.
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Post by General Mahad on May 18, 2024 14:10:49 GMT
Likewise, I don't know why you are so invested in the notion that Yasuke was more than a glorified servant. The complete lack of evidence of his alleged class as a Samurai in any Japanese source and being sold into foreign slavery instead of getting executed tells me that no one took his alleged Samurai status seriously. He was a curiosity to be gawked at, little different than a court jester. No evidence? The evidence has been laid out for you several times, you’ve just declared any evidence short of an explicit declaration that he was a samurai in period text as insufficient. That isn’t a lack of evidence, you’re just demanding a standard of proof that historians who actually specialize in the period do not think is required to conclude that he was probably a samurai. I am comparing Yasuke with all the other famous foreign born Samurai. There doesn't seem to be any issues with clarifying their Samurai Status except with Yasuke. I also think we're missing an important word: Bushi, which means warrior, which was more often used than Samurai. Ashigaru were considered Bushi but they were not considered Samurai...yet. It's more probable that Yasuke was a Bushi rather than a Samurai. Reports did compliment massive strength and his wrestling capability, but there's no reports of his ability with any weapons nor any training.
A stipend does not automatically make him a Samurai per se. From what I understand, some Veteran/Professional Ashigaru did receive a stipend but they were still considered fairly distinct from the Samurai class and were not yet folded into the Samurai class.
One battle, which was more of a betrayal and slaughter of a Lord. Naturally, the retainers and servants will have to fight alongside the warriors.
His treatment after Nobunaga’s death doesn’t match any preconception of how Samurai are treated in history. He did not die, he did not commit Seppuku, he was not enslaved to the victor, he was enslaved to foreigners by other Samurai. Incredibly bizarre and that has never happened before in Japan. This points to his lack of class standing.
Why not both? Assassins Creed has never directly based their protagonist on a real person until now. Naturally, this will invite more skepticism and criticism. You say its a non-issue yet this matter is so hotly contested on online spaces that even Wikipedia is on fire. I think that's worthy of debate given the circumstances and the fact that he's one of the playable characters. There's also the matter of articles claiming that if you disagree with Samurai Yasuke being the protagonist instead of a fictional Japanese Samurai then you are racist which is just so asinine.
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Post by Hier0phant on May 18, 2024 19:37:47 GMT
Ubisoft always takes massive liberties with historical facts in Assassin's Creed so them making Yasuke a major historical figure in regards to Japan's Sengoku politics isn't out of the norm for them. My only problem with Ubisoft's Yasuke is that his design is just uninspired. Can't these mofos make him look cool like Djimon Hounsou or Peter Mensah? I mean i can thank them for not casting Debrah Wilson but shit man?
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Post by General Mahad on May 19, 2024 14:18:46 GMT
Ubisoft always takes massive liberties with historical facts in Assassin's Creed so them making Yasuke a major historical figure in regards to Japan's Sengoku politics isn't out of the norm for them. My only problem with Ubisoft's Yasuke is that his design is just uninspired. Can't these mofos make him look cool like Djimon Hounsou or Peter Mensah? I mean i can thank them for not casting Debrah Wilson but shit man? True enough. Assassins Creed Vallhala tried to treat the protagonists Vikings as a bunch of oppressed immigrants fleeing a tyrant instead of barbarians who kill, rape and pillage their way across Britain. Plus you have characters quoting GANDHI of all people when talking about Christians, WTF. Vikings did not give a damn about your religion! They would torture and behead people for honor. Overall, Assassins Creed has become a jumbled mess of weird themes and values which is at odds for its supposed historical authenticity. Unfortunately, it’s also being used as a blunt stick for the culture war instead of a surgical tool like it used to be. Shame. Asmongold had a take stating that the controversial design decision was made to distract people from the awful price gouging and the game being mediocre like the past couple entries. Gotta say, he’s not wrong. The heated discussions are more about Yasuke and less about Ubisoft’s greedy practices.
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Post by General Mahad on May 19, 2024 21:20:30 GMT
Here is something interesting if true:
#m
If the translation is correct, then Yasuke was selected out of Tokenism and that’s coming out from the mouth of Ubisoft. Isn’t that the most insulting thing you ever heard? Yasuke wasn’t chosen by virtue nor strength but because he wasn’t Japanese. When they realized this, Famitsu had to quickly scrub the article but fortunately the internet doesn’t forget.
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Post by skekSil on May 19, 2024 23:49:03 GMT
If the translation is correct, then Yasuke was selected out of Tokenism and that’s coming out from the mouth of Ubisoft. Yasuke wasn’t chosen by virtue nor strength but because he wasn’t Japanese This is not tokenism. Btw if the translation is correct, Famitsu also thinks that Yasuke was samurai.
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Post by General Mahad on May 20, 2024 0:57:55 GMT
If the translation is correct, then Yasuke was selected out of Tokenism and that’s coming out from the mouth of Ubisoft. Yasuke wasn’t chosen by virtue nor strength but because he wasn’t Japanese This is not tokenism. The fact they tried to censor it shows they know the negative connotations. He was only chosen because he was not Japanese. Btw if the translation is correct, Famitsu also thinks that Yasuke was samurai. Of course, they are gaming journalists; albeit much, much better than the ones we have here in the west. But then again, they did censor the original article so maybe they are falling to level of Kotaku.
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Post by skekSil on May 20, 2024 14:44:51 GMT
The fact they tried to censor it shows they know the negative connotations. He was only chosen because he was not Japanese. There is nothing negative about showing a new and unfamiliar setting through the eyes of an outsider - its an old, well known and often employed trope, including Japan, which is seemingly obsessed with isekai, a neighboring concept. If you are telling a story from a foreigner's point of view it is 9 times out of 10 to tell a fish out of barrel story. It is not tokenism. Of course, they are gaming journalists; albeit much, much better than the ones we have here in the west. But then again, they did censor the original article so maybe they are falling to level of Kotaku. You are just dismissing facts you don't like.
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Post by General Mahad on May 20, 2024 15:26:42 GMT
The fact they tried to censor it shows they know the negative connotations. He was only chosen because he was not Japanese. There is nothing negative about showing a new and unfamiliar setting through the eyes of an outsider - its an old, well known and often employed trope, including Japan, which is seemingly obsessed with isekai, a neighboring concept. If you are telling a story from a foreigner's point of view it is 9 times out of 10 to tell a fish out of barrel story. It is not tokenism. Yea it is, otherwise they wouldn’t have scrubbed the article of that mention of it was just a fish out of water perspective. Wonder why? Also something else interesting: marketing states that Yasuke will “…free Japan from its oppressors.” I always thought the white savior trope was haram, but I guess it’s okay as long as the savior is obsidian. Pop culture outlet follows pop culture history, news at 11. Speaking of Samurai: Ghost of Tsushima Surpasses God of War, Becomes Sony’s Second Biggest PC Launch www.playstationlifestyle.net/2024/05/20/ghost-of-tsushima-pc-surpassed-god-of-war-2018/Good job Jin.
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Post by Hier0phant on May 21, 2024 1:39:17 GMT
Ubisoft always takes massive liberties with historical facts in Assassin's Creed so them making Yasuke a major historical figure in regards to Japan's Sengoku politics isn't out of the norm for them. My only problem with Ubisoft's Yasuke is that his design is just uninspired. Can't these mofos make him look cool like Djimon Hounsou or Peter Mensah? I mean i can thank them for not casting Debrah Wilson but shit man? True enough. Assassins Creed Vallhala tried to treat the protagonists Vikings as a bunch of oppressed immigrants fleeing a tyrant instead of barbarians who kill, rape and pillage their way across Britain. Plus you have characters quoting GANDHI of all people when talking about Christians, WTF. Vikings did not give a damn about your religion! They would torture and behead people for honor. Overall, Assassins Creed has become a jumbled mess of weird themes and values which is at odds for its supposed historical authenticity. Unfortunately, it’s also being used as a blunt stick for the culture war instead of a surgical tool like it used to be. Shame. Asmongold had a take stating that the controversial design decision was made to distract people from the awful price gouging and the game being mediocre like the past couple entries. Gotta say, he’s not wrong. The heated discussions are more about Yasuke and less about Ubisoft’s greedy practices. Indeed, it seems like History Channel's Alien Guy had ghost written for this series, and i wouldn't be surprised if Nioh and Onimusha end up being more historically accurate than Shadows. I agree with Asmongold's take too, but for now we wait to see how the betrayal at Honnoji plays out because you just know there will be memes.
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Post by General Mahad on May 22, 2024 0:14:32 GMT
Mafia 4 teased ahead of full reveal www.gamingbible.com/news/mafia-4-reveal-teased-730522-20240521Anyone here play the Mafia games? I want to try to like the series but the wasted open world is a shame. It's the same problem with LA Noire, you have this amazingly detailed as well as realistic open world that is just empty with nothing to do outside of the main missions and some very small side content. I yearn for a GTA clone set in the 1920s-1950s when the Mafia was at its peak. In fact, I have this vision of a Mafia game set in Italy during WW2 where you fight Fascists and Nazis as a resistance member with ties to the Camorra and then your Clan becomes a nation wide crime syndicate in the aftermath of the war like in real life.
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Post by General Mahad on May 22, 2024 13:07:53 GMT
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Post by Gileadan on May 22, 2024 14:16:59 GMT
Can't wait for the implementation of "social stealth" in AC:Shadows. Click the "blend in" prompt and all those guards in pursuit won't be able to tell Yasuke from all the other huge black men in the village.
We strike from the shadows. We don't stand out at all.
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Post by Evil on May 22, 2024 17:19:54 GMT
Can't wait for the implementation of "social stealth" in AC:Shadows. Click the "blend in" prompt and all those guards in pursuit won't be able to tell Yasuke from all the other huge black men in the village. We strike from the shadows. We don't stand out at all. That just snark, or Ubisoft actually adding that?
Because that'd be a great idea in pretty much any other assassin game. Historically accurate too, British assassins used that technique regularly to off nazis with a point blank Welrod or Welwand shot to the back of the head. They'd literally never see it coming. Don't doubt for a second that earlier era assassins would use the same kinda technique with daggers or shortswords.
No way in hell Yasuke could pull it off tho.
Skin colour ain't the problem. masks and head obscuring hats exist.
Height is the problem. Prior to losing WW2, Japanese peasants were so commonly suffering from stunted growth resulting from childhood malnutrition that even the Chinese sometimes called them "dwarves". They were THAT short. Over-reliance on white rice was a large part of it BTW.
Yasuke wasn't exactly a small dude either.
To quote Encyclopædia Britannica:
As recorded in the diary of the samurai Matsudaira Ietada, “His [Yasuke’s] height was 6 shaku 2 sun [roughly 6 feet 2 inches (1.88 metres)]…he was black, and his skin was like charcoal.” Yasuke would have towered over the average Japanese person of that era.
It'd be like master chief trying to hide amongst ordinary humans, or an astartes hiding in a group of guardsmen.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on May 22, 2024 18:15:11 GMT
Nice I'm no tinto hack an dslashers whic his one o fth emain rasons why I haven' tgot Ghos tof Tsushima but I mus tadmit I like the look o fStella rBlade and I would b etempted if it came to PC as it looks fun
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Post by skekSil on May 22, 2024 20:02:57 GMT
Because that'd be a great idea in pretty much any other assassin game. Historically accurate too, British assassins used that technique regularly to off nazis with a point blank Welrod or Welwand shot to the back of the head. They'd literally never see it coming. Don't doubt for a second that earlier era assassins would use the same kinda technique with daggers or shortswords. I recommend reading the Famitsu article that was mentioned previously (via Google translate of course), it is actually a rather long interview with like 8 devs and they do describe some game mechanics. For example they mention that Yasuke will be more combat oriented while Naoe will obviously stealth oriented but they both will have stealth and combat options in their builds, yet stealth Yasuke will not be as stealthy as combat Naoe and vice versa combat Naoe wont beat stealth Yasuke.
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Post by themikefest on May 22, 2024 20:49:53 GMT
Nice I'm no tinto hack an dslashers whic his one o fth emain rasons why I haven' tgot Ghos tof Tsushima but I mus tadmit I like the look o fStella rBlade and I would b etempted if it came to PC as it looks fun Good game. I'm getting ready to start my third playthrough. Once done, I will have platinum the game. excellent. I would not be surprised it comes to the computer. As far as a sequel goes, it might happen. I could see it being released around the same time as the next playstation console.
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Post by Evil on May 22, 2024 20:57:25 GMT
Because that'd be a great idea in pretty much any other assassin game. Historically accurate too, British assassins used that technique regularly to off nazis with a point blank Welrod or Welwand shot to the back of the head. They'd literally never see it coming. Don't doubt for a second that earlier era assassins would use the same kinda technique with daggers or shortswords. I recommend reading the Famitsu article that was mentioned previously (via Google translate of course), it is actually a rather long interview with like 8 devs and they do describe some game mechanics. For example they mention that Yasuke will be more combat oriented while Naoe will obviously stealth oriented but they both will have stealth and combat options in their builds, yet stealth Yasuke will not be as stealthy as combat Naoe and vice versa combat Naoe wont beat stealth Yasuke. Ah, now THAT makes a lot more sense.
It sounds like a more advanced version of the setup used in Resident Evil Zero. most functionallity was available to either character, but Rebecca could bypass some obstructions Billy couldn't due to being smaller. This came at the expense of a smaller health bar, making Billy the go-to for big fights.
If its done right, this could be a good gameplay setup. Especially if theres an option to replay completed missions with the other character.
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