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Post by azarhal on Jul 28, 2020 12:39:00 GMT
consequently set the bar pretty high ("better than Tolkien"). That's not a very high bar. Tolkien is "generic fantasy" these days (as everyone just copied what he did).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 28, 2020 12:44:37 GMT
That's not a very high bar. Tolkien is "generic fantasy" these days So you're saying that he was so influential and timeless that even today, 75 years later, nobody has outdone Tolkien and everyone still borrows elements from his work to make their own? Nah, that's not a high bar at all.
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Post by azarhal on Jul 28, 2020 13:04:30 GMT
That's not a very high bar. Tolkien is "generic fantasy" these days So you're saying that he was so influential and timeless that even today, 75 years later, nobody has outdone Tolkien and everyone still borrows elements from his work to make their own? Nah, that's not a high bar at all. No, I'm saying it is generic, familiar and plain like McDonalds. It's just a take on old Germanic myths and poems. See Des Ring des Nibelung of Wagner for a similar "one ring to rule them all" story (in opera form) released decades before Tolkien was born.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2020 13:13:32 GMT
So you're saying that he was so influential and timeless that even today, 75 years later, nobody has outdone Tolkien and everyone still borrows elements from his work to make their own? Nah, that's not a high bar at all. No, I'm saying it is generic and plain like McDonalds. It's just a take on old Germanic myths. See Des Ring des Nibelung of Warner for a similar "one ring to rule them all" story (in opera form) released decades before Tolkien was born. At the time, fantasy that was't aimed at children or some allegory about religion or the world, but instead aimed at adult entertainment was almost unheard of. Tolkien isn't generic. It's brand name from which the generics are copied from.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 28, 2020 13:53:19 GMT
See Des Ring des Nibelung of Warner Warner? Wagner maybe? Yeah, Wagner. Still, nobody made an epic with such a fleshed out history, background, heroes, events, locations etc. to make a life-like, sprawling world the likes of Middle-Earth before. Not in a singular person literary work. As for being influenced by previous work, that's true. Everyone is influenced by previous work. Nothing is 100% original and hasn't been in a very, very long time, more than just decades. That still shouldn't diminish the literary achievement that the books and the world of Middle-Earth are. If your criteria is that no story should be considered good, unless it was original 100%, then that would mean art stopped with ... who? The Sumerians? Let's assume that some stories weren't yet told. So let's go as far the Greeks. There. Now every story, in some form, has already been told. Nothing is original, everything since has been McDonalds. I don't see the reasoning behind this. There is merit in Tolkien's work as well as many other authors since. What Tolkien achieved, though, was phenomenal. Praise should be given to the stories that shaped and influenced Tolkien, to be sure, but that shouldn't discount his work altogether. Imagine, for a moment, that you are an architect and you are put in charge of putting a palace. Other palaces had been built before yours and surely they've influenced you work before it. But the day to reveal it comes and surely, your palace is a sight to behold. It is influential for decades to come and will be considered the standard by which all future palaces will be judged. Just because all future palaces will be influenced by yours, whether because it is to imitate, or to pay homage to your work. That does not, in any way, diminish your work, but rather exemplifies it. But that's just how I see it and it won't be the first time I'm wrong.
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Post by Gwydden on Jul 28, 2020 14:12:32 GMT
At the time, fantasy that was't aimed at children or some allegory about religion or the world, but instead aimed at adult entertainment was almost unheard of. William Morris, George MacDonald, Rudyard Kipling, Lord Dunsany, E.R. Eddison, Hope Mirlees, Mervyn Peake, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, Poul Anderson... These are all pre-Tolkien writers of adult fantasy, some of them quite popular and recognized in their own right. I could name just as many post-Tolkien authors whose work had little to no influence from his. I like Tolkien's work, but pretending he's the be-all, end-all of fantasy is precisely why stuff like this game's cancellation happens, and why lazy imitators proliferate so much.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 28, 2020 14:28:47 GMT
GwyddenI like Lord Dunsany's work and Robert Howard's. I also like Michael Moorcock very much. I do like other writers. Some I like more than Tolkien, myself. That doesn't mean that what Tolkien did wasn't good. In fact it was great. It achieved something unprecedented. You can dislike how it shaped the fantasy landscape, true, but Tolkien and his work aren't to blame for it and, of course, large corporations only have this large landmarks by which to compare, because their aim is money and mass appeal. And Tolkien, or Tolkien-esque is a guarantee for that. I am not going to disagree on that, especially if the provided spectacle is that grand. I am sick and tired of reading and visiting old ruins, fallen civilizations and glimpses of past legends and greatness. I understand the mystery and the mythical element behind the low fantasy settings that speak of the great deeds of old and the decadence of the modern society to contrast those. I also understand the gore and brutality of the dark fantasy settings or the twisted reality of horror fantasy. But I would like, for once, to see the sprawling elf cities and the bright white spires of the human cities and the rock carved cities of the dwarves and it never feels like they're done justice to the imagination of the writers. I'd argue we're getting anything but the High Fantasy of Tolkien in video games. I would, for once, like to see that in a game.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jul 28, 2020 15:02:59 GMT
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Iakus
N7
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2020 15:26:40 GMT
At the time, fantasy that was't aimed at children or some allegory about religion or the world, but instead aimed at adult entertainment was almost unheard of. William Morris, George MacDonald, Rudyard Kipling, Lord Dunsany, E.R. Eddison, Hope Mirlees, Mervyn Peake, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, Poul Anderson... These are all pre-Tolkien writers of adult fantasy, some of them quite popular and recognized in their own right. I could name just as many post-Tolkien authors whose work had little to no influence from his. I like Tolkien's work, but pretending he's the be-all, end-all of fantasy is precisely why stuff like this game's cancellation happens, and why lazy imitators proliferate so much. ...and? Yes, these are all fantasy writers who achieved some degree of fame before Tolkien. Though I should mention that some of those writers became famous for things other than fantasy writing, not to mention several of the writers you mention, their fantasy works are either children's material or some form of political or religious allegory. And in any case, fantasy was still a niche market. Tolkien made fantasy novels mainstream. Without him, fantasy would have remained, at best, in the realm of the pulps. Considered lowbrow entertainment and little else. So be-all, end all? No. But he did make it respectable, not to mention WILDLY popular. And modern fantasy writers and readers owe him a debt that can never be repaid. You can't blame him for pale imitators that follow. That's not being 'too Tolkien" a cr*ppy Conan imitator is just as bad as a cr*ppy LOTR imitation
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 28, 2020 15:45:02 GMT
No, I'm saying it is generic and plain like McDonalds. It's just a take on old Germanic myths. See Des Ring des Nibelung of Warner for a similar "one ring to rule them all" story (in opera form) released decades before Tolkien was born. At the time, fantasy that was't aimed at children or some allegory about religion or the world, but instead aimed at adult entertainment was almost unheard of. Tolkien isn't generic. It's brand name from which the generics are copied from. In a lot of ways its a similar issue that The Ghost in the Shell anime has. Looking backwards at it is seems that it is a generic anime with so many common tropes and themes, but when you look at it in the time frame it was released it was a vastly different story and the reason why you see so many similarities is that so many other pieces of media have taken the path it laid out first.
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Post by Gwydden on Jul 28, 2020 16:01:36 GMT
...and? Yes, these are all fantasy writers who achieved some degree of fame before Tolkien. Though I should mention that some of those writers became famous for things other than fantasy writing, not to mention several of the writers you mention, their fantasy works are either children's material or some form of political or religious allegory. And in any case, fantasy was still a niche market. Tolkien made fantasy novels mainstream. Without him, fantasy would have remained, at best, in the realm of the pulps. Considered lowbrow entertainment and little else. So be-all, end all? No. But he did make it respectable, not to mention WILDLY popular. And modern fantasy writers and readers owe him a debt that can never be repaid. You can't blame him for pale imitators that follow. That's not being 'too Tolkien" a cr*ppy Conan imitator is just as bad as a cr*ppy LOTR imitation This is all rather off-topic so we should probably stop this discussion or resume it elsewhere. Quickly: - All the authors I mentioned wrote adult fantasy, even if they also wrote children's books. The only one you could argue wrote allegorical fantasy is maybe George MacDonald.
- Fantasy is still considered lowbrow entertainment and little else. I have a Literature degree; hardly anyone there thinks highly of Tolkien, much less the likes of Brooks or Sanderson.
- Tolkien did make fantasy mainstream, but you're assuming someone else wouldn't have done it otherwise, which is a big if.
- Like I said, I enjoy Tolkien's work and don't blame him for his usually lackluster copycats. I would be genuinely excited for a Middle-earth RPG faithful to the source material.
More relevant to this thread, while in literature the fad is to copy Tolkien, fantasy games' bigger problem is their usual inability to do anything that's not some variation on a run-of-the-mill D&D setting, which is why I think missing out on a potential Arthurian RPG because of some guy whose entire frame of reference for fantasy was Tolkien a bit of a tragedy.
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Post by azarhal on Jul 28, 2020 16:28:26 GMT
No, I'm saying it is generic and plain like McDonalds. It's just a take on old Germanic myths. See Des Ring des Nibelung of Warner for a similar "one ring to rule them all" story (in opera form) released decades before Tolkien was born. At the time, fantasy that was't aimed at children or some allegory about religion or the world, but instead aimed at adult entertainment was almost unheard of. Tolkien isn't generic. It's brand name from which the generics are copied from. I'm not saying Tolkien isn't popular. I'm saying what he wrote isn't an high bar for fantasy. It's dressed up Germanic(/Scandinavian) myths (with influences from other pre-existing fictions). Tolkien did what people are doing with his work. He's just more popular now than what influenced him. Who here have read The Princess and the Goblin? It's like saying Dracula is the inspiration for all vampire stories ( poor forgotten Carmilla and Varney). That World of Warcraft is the first MMORPG ever ( it's not even Everquest). Or that the Tarasque was a monster invented by D&D ( people living in Tarascon, France will tell you otherwise). I actually didn't know the last one until a few weeks ago. And to circle to the original news that started this whole argumentation, a proper fantasy take on the King Arthur/Knights of the Round table would have been awesome. They were superpowered knights.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2020 16:31:56 GMT
...and? Yes, these are all fantasy writers who achieved some degree of fame before Tolkien. Though I should mention that some of those writers became famous for things other than fantasy writing, not to mention several of the writers you mention, their fantasy works are either children's material or some form of political or religious allegory. And in any case, fantasy was still a niche market. Tolkien made fantasy novels mainstream. Without him, fantasy would have remained, at best, in the realm of the pulps. Considered lowbrow entertainment and little else. So be-all, end all? No. But he did make it respectable, not to mention WILDLY popular. And modern fantasy writers and readers owe him a debt that can never be repaid. You can't blame him for pale imitators that follow. That's not being 'too Tolkien" a cr*ppy Conan imitator is just as bad as a cr*ppy LOTR imitation This is all rather off-topic so we should probably stop this discussion or resume it elsewhere. Quickly: - All the authors I mentioned wrote adult fantasy, even if they also wrote children's books. The only one you could argue wrote allegorical fantasy is maybe George MacDonald.
- Fantasy is still considered lowbrow entertainment and little else. I have a Literature degree; hardly anyone there thinks highly of Tolkien, much less the likes of Brooks or Sanderson.
- Tolkien did make fantasy mainstream, but you're assuming someone else wouldn't have done it otherwise, which is a big if.
- Like I said, I enjoy Tolkien's work and don't blame him for his usually lackluster copycats. I would be genuinely excited for a Middle-earth RPG faithful to the source material.
More relevant to this thread, while in literature the fad is to copy Tolkien, fantasy games' bigger problem is their usual inability to do anything that's not some variation on a run-of-the-mill D&D setting, which is why I think missing out on a potential Arthurian RPG because of some guy whose entire frame of reference for fantasy was Tolkien a bit of a tragedy. Final points: It sounds like you hang out with a bunch of hipsters Maybe someone else could have made fantasy mainstream, but Tolkien DID. Hard to argue with success. I'd be even more excited to see a an accurate ARTHURIAN-era rpg, the likes of Le Morte D'Arthur or Geoffrey of Monmouth. Or even T. H. White. But Arthurian legend is way too full of Christianity for any mainstream company to touch without turning it into a D&D game. So making an authentic one that respected the material would take a set of brass ones.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2020 16:42:43 GMT
At the time, fantasy that was't aimed at children or some allegory about religion or the world, but instead aimed at adult entertainment was almost unheard of. Tolkien isn't generic. It's brand name from which the generics are copied from. I'm not saying Tolkien isn't popular. I'm saying what he wrote isn't an high bar for fantasy. It's dressed up Germanic(/Scandinavian) myths (with influences from other pre-existing fictions). Tolkien did what people are doing with his work. He's just more popular now than what influenced him. Who here have read The Princess and the Goblin? It's like saying Dracula is the inspiration for all vampire stories ( poor forgotten Carmilla and Varney). That World of Warcraft is the first MMORPG ever ( it's not even Everquest). Or that the Tarasque was a monster invented by D&D ( people living in Tarascon, France will tell you otherwise). I actually didn't know the last one until a few weeks ago. And to circle to the original news that started this whole argumentation, a proper fantasy take on the King Arthur/Knights of the Round table would have been awesome. They were superpowered knights. Okay NOW last one. Yes, he drew on Germanic and Scandinavian myths, but he put his own spin on things. He spent HIS ENTIRE ADULT LIFE crafting Middle Earth. Yes, I read Princess and the Goblin (though I liked The Princess and Curdie more) back when I was in grade school. And yes Stoker was certainly the inspiration for most MODERN vampire stories WoW took Everquest and added/refined features that made it wildly popular (though Jim Butcher certainly draws on multiple sources) I think you're conflating "first" and "popularized" here and not giving the latter its proper due. See above on my views of an Arthurian game. I actually played one long, long ago called "Spirit of Excalibur" where you played as Lord Constantine, Arhtur's successor trying to hold things together after Arthur's death.
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Post by Gwydden on Jul 28, 2020 16:50:50 GMT
It sounds like you hang out with a bunch of hipsters Dunno, there's already been attempts to adapt Call of Cthulhu and Runequest to video game form. Pendragon CRPG when? I'll even take 7th Sea if someone's up for it. Polaris, Ars Magica, Mythic Iceland, Legend of the Five Rings? Goddamn Mouseguard? Nothing? The tabletop RPG sphere has diversified so much from its origins in D&D, but it seems its digital equivalent has only just now heard of Pathfinder *sigh*
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2020 16:58:05 GMT
It sounds like you hang out with a bunch of hipsters Dunno, there's already been attempts to adapt Call of Cthulhu and Runequest to video game form. Pendragon CRPG when? I'll even take 7th Sea if someone's up for it. Polaris, Ars Magica, Mythic Iceland, Legend of the Five Rings? Goddamn Mouseguard? Nothing? The tabletop RPG sphere has diversified so much from its origins in D&D, but it seems its digital equivalent has only just now heard of Pathfinder *sigh* Well, I don't mean D&D specifically, but to turn it into more of a generic fantasy game setting, rather than adhering to a particular ruleset.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 28, 2020 17:07:58 GMT
He's just more popular now than what influenced him You ever stopped to wonder why? And to circle to the original news that started this whole argumentation, a proper fantasy take on the King Arthur/Knights of the Round table would have been awesome. They were superpowered knights. Yeah, I'd be down with that.
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Post by Gwydden on Jul 28, 2020 17:13:57 GMT
Well, I don't mean D&D specifically, but to turn it into more of a generic fantasy game setting, rather than adhering to a particular ruleset. Yeah, that's my point. Fantasy TTRPGs have more varied settings than their video game counterparts. I wish there were more CRPG adaptations of tabletop.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jul 28, 2020 17:34:11 GMT
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Post by regack on Jul 28, 2020 18:00:25 GMT
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Post by azarhal on Jul 28, 2020 18:10:48 GMT
I'm not saying Tolkien isn't popular. I'm saying what he wrote isn't an high bar for fantasy. It's dressed up Germanic(/Scandinavian) myths (with influences from other pre-existing fictions). Tolkien did what people are doing with his work. He's just more popular now than what influenced him. Who here have read The Princess and the Goblin? It's like saying Dracula is the inspiration for all vampire stories ( poor forgotten Carmilla and Varney). That World of Warcraft is the first MMORPG ever ( it's not even Everquest). Or that the Tarasque was a monster invented by D&D ( people living in Tarascon, France will tell you otherwise). I actually didn't know the last one until a few weeks ago. And to circle to the original news that started this whole argumentation, a proper fantasy take on the King Arthur/Knights of the Round table would have been awesome. They were superpowered knights. Okay NOW last one. Yes, he drew on Germanic and Scandinavian myths, but he put his own spin on things. He spent HIS ENTIRE ADULT LIFE crafting Middle Earth. Yes, I read Princess and the Goblin (though I liked The Princess and Curdie more) back when I was in grade school. And yes Stoker was certainly the inspiration for most MODERN vampire stories WoW took Everquest and added/refined features that made it wildly popular (though Jim Butcher certainly draws on multiple sources) I think you're conflating "first" and "popularized" here and not giving the latter its proper due. See above on my views of an Arthurian game. I actually played one long, long ago called "Spirit of Excalibur" where you played as Lord Constantine, Arhtur's successor trying to hold things together after Arthur's death. I own all Tolkien books, I've read them multiple times. I've been a fan of Tolkien since the mid-80s thanks to seeing the 1978 animated movie. We nicknamed my sister Gollum. You'll never see me claim Tolkien is the highest bar for a fantasy settings. To me it's just a generic medieval/Germanic myths mix up and the reason why I like it. Serge Hascoet cancelled the King Arthur game because he believes Middle Earth is the top of fantasy settings and what was being proposed to him couldn't reach that bar somehow. It had nothing to do with popularity. I said "that's not a very high bar to reach" because Middle Earth isn't special as a fantasy setting, even back when the Hobbit released in 1937. And my comment about Dracula and WoW is to show that mainstream conflate "came first" with what is the most popular. Not me. Saying that, Carmilla is the source for the whole "modern" gay vampire concept. Unless you are one of those people who believes Dracula had the hots for Jonathan...
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 28, 2020 18:20:25 GMT
azarhalWell, I don't consider success of that caliber/magnitude to be a matter of happenstance. They did something right, that nobody else had done before them, for whatever reason. If you could distill that, perhaps all the clones Star Wars spawned would have been equally as successful.
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Post by azarhal on Jul 28, 2020 19:47:07 GMT
azarhal Well, I don't consider success of that caliber/magnitude to be a matter of happenstance. They did something right, that nobody else had done before them, for whatever reason. If you could distill that, perhaps all the clones Star Wars spawned would have been equally as successful. The answer to that is usually marketing/exposure and "relatable content" (feels familiar/comfortable*). Take McDonald's popularity, they achieved it via marketing to children and making it "simple/fast" for families, not because their burgers taste the best. Lord of the Rings novels were bestsellers and the 1978 movie became a cult classic despite not being critically acclaimed, but that popularity was nothing compared to what it achieved after the Peter Jackson's movies. Without the excellent movies, it probably would hang out with The Narnia on the popularity chart...and that had movies too, just not really good ones. *The hardest part to succeed at as a content creator and yet the receipt for success is: good vs evil plot PoV from the side of good, a romance that slowly builds up, some mysteries/twists, some backstabbing and a few "magical creatures". You just have to put everything together convincingly.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jul 29, 2020 1:02:01 GMT
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