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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 2:11:13 GMT
Yeah, especially if they go against what they already established in the lore. For example how Bioware in ME2 abandoned the lore they set up regarding things like protective suits needed for dangerous conditions and instead just did the Rule of Cool/Sexy instead. So now instead of needing a full-body suit to protect you from things like extreme temperatures, toxic atmospheres, or even the vacuum of space you can now do that naked apparently. Alliance marines, turians, quarians and krogan are the ones who would survive in a vacuum. The rest could probably stay conscious for about 10 second and would be dead in 90 seconds. So, the rest of the squad is dead. Still leaves us with a team of seven (Shep, A/K, Vega, Tali, Garrus, Wrex, Grunt). Maybe 11 if you count synthetics, which are EDI and Legion. Respectable sized squad that leaves the ones lacking common sense dead. Well for Shep, Vega, Ash, and Kaidan it would depend on the armor they're wearing since some of their outfits leave parts of their head exposed. But at least they have some outfits that provide adequate protection unlike others like the ME2 humans. Grunt also has his arms exposed so he'd die. Garrus, Tali, and Wrex are always in fully-sealed outfits so they'd be fine, and yeah Legion and EDI don't need any of that stuff. Then in MEA Cora, Liam, and Vetra would be fine while Drack, Jaal, and PeeBee would not.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 2:13:32 GMT
Alliance marines, turians, quarians and krogan are the ones who would survive in a vacuum. The rest could probably stay conscious for about 10 second and would be dead in 90 seconds. So, the rest of the squad is dead. Still leaves us with a team of seven (Shep, A/K, Vega, Tali, Garrus, Wrex, Grunt). Maybe 11 if you count synthetics, which are EDI and Legion. Respectable sized squad that leaves the ones lacking common sense dead. Well for Shep, Vega, Ash, and Kaidan it would depend on the armor they're wearing since some of their outfits leave parts of their head exposed. But at least they have some outfits that provide adequate protection unlike others like the ME2 humans. Grunt also has his arms exposed so he'd die. Garrus, Tali, and Wrex are always in fully-sealed outfits so they'd be fine, and yeah Legion and EDI don't need any of that stuff. Then in MEA Cora, Liam, and Vetra would be fine while Drack, Jaal, and PeeBee would not. Oh, true. I always give them full-on helmets that can be sealed. I always thought those made the most sense. Probably why it never occurred to me that they could wear "stupid" armor. 
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 2:17:39 GMT
Well for Shep, Vega, Ash, and Kaidan it would depend on the armor they're wearing since some of their outfits leave parts of their head exposed. But at least they have some outfits that provide adequate protection unlike others like the ME2 humans. Grunt also has his arms exposed so he'd die. Garrus, Tali, and Wrex are always in fully-sealed outfits so they'd be fine, and yeah Legion and EDI don't need any of that stuff. Then in MEA Cora, Liam, and Vetra would be fine while Drack, Jaal, and PeeBee would not. Oh, true. I always give them full-on helmets that can be sealed. I always thought those made the most sense. Probably why it never occurred to me that they could wear "stupid" armor.  I always do too. Plus those outfits tend to look better anyway. I also only use those characters when it comes to missions where if we followed the lore that would be what you have to do to survive. I know it wouldn't affect anything if I brought the others, but it affects my immersion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 4:50:08 GMT
QEC was a bit gimmicky but it worked. Obsolete and harmful violation of RL science. Through the Collectors […] the Reapers have access to the Omega 4 Relay. What do you mean? I mean, the Reapers chained a couple relay jumps to appear out of nowhere in Sol so they can be anywhere anytime after connecting to the relay network so your point is of course valid but what the Collectors have to do with this? The IFF Shepard used to get through the Omega 4 Relay was from an ancient derelict Reaper... which essentially proved that any Reaper could have used the Omega 4 relay to access the Milky Way at any time. The Collectors moving in and out of the Omega 4 Relay abducting colonists also shows that the relay was not sealed from either direction... all that was required was a Reaper IFF (which, presumably, all Reapers have). It quite simply blows the ME1 premise of the Reapers being trapped in dark space right out of the water. It also blows the premise behind the Arrival DLC out of the water. The Reapers simply did not need the Alpha Relay and it makes no sense that they would choose to start their harvest by entering through the Aratoht relay and attacking the lowly Batarians first... especially when, we are told by Vigil that they attacked the Citadel first when they started the harvest of the Protheans. If they couldn't access the Citadel, then at the very least, they should have come through the Omega 4 Relay and began with an attack on Omega. So, my point is, that the Reapers were never disconnected from the relay network. They always had access through the Omega 4 relay.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 19, 2019 10:40:06 GMT
Why I butthurt about QEC is because it is – unnecessary: other means of superluminal communication existed and were sufficient in ME, – harmful: it cancels a part of the explanation of the Reapers' plan, – written like garbage: the Codex entry looks like if the person who wrote it never grasped basics of quantum computing and cardinality theory or just didn't care about plausibility at all. That it violates RL science would be acceptable for me if not for the first and second reason combined or for the third. Obsolete and harmful violation of RL science. What do you mean? I mean, the Reapers chained a couple relay jumps to appear out of nowhere in Sol so they can be anywhere anytime after connecting to the relay network so your point is of course valid but what the Collectors have to do with this? The IFF Shepard used to get through the Omega 4 Relay was from an ancient derelict Reaper... which essentially proved that any Reaper could have used the Omega 4 relay to access the Milky Way at any time. The Collectors moving in and out of the Omega 4 Relay abducting colonists also shows that the relay was not sealed from either direction... all that was required was a Reaper IFF (which, presumably, all Reapers have). It quite simply blows the ME1 premise of the Reapers being trapped in dark space right out of the water. It also blows the premise behind the Arrival DLC out of the water. The Reapers simply did not need the Alpha Relay and it makes no sense that they would choose to start their harvest by entering through the Aratoht relay and attacking the lowly Batarians first... especially when, we are told by Vigil that they attacked the Citadel first when they started the harvest of the Protheans. If they couldn't access the Citadel, then at the very least, they should have come through the Omega 4 Relay and began with an attack on Omega. So, my point is, that the Reapers were never disconnected from the relay network. They always had access through the Omega 4 relay. (I assume that you're thinking about the relay in the galaxy's core that is connected to the Omega 4.) Yes, but they would have to physically access it before and they were apparently somewhat far from the galaxy's axis and Aratoht or any relay neighbouring to it was closer. I always understood the "they are trapped" premise as "they're in inactive state and it's unclear when they will wake up", not as "they're too far from the galaxy too reach it", I don't agree with this interpretation but it seems valid. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 11:48:02 GMT
Why I butthurt about QEC is because it is – unnecessary: other means of superluminal communication existed and were sufficient in ME, – harmful: it cancels a part of the explanation of the Reapers' plan, – written like garbage: the Codex entry looks like if the person who wrote it never grasped basics of quantum computing and cardinality theory or just didn't care about plausibility at all. That it violates RL science would be acceptable for me if not for the first and second reason combined or for the third. The IFF Shepard used to get through the Omega 4 Relay was from an ancient derelict Reaper... which essentially proved that any Reaper could have used the Omega 4 relay to access the Milky Way at any time. The Collectors moving in and out of the Omega 4 Relay abducting colonists also shows that the relay was not sealed from either direction... all that was required was a Reaper IFF (which, presumably, all Reapers have). It quite simply blows the ME1 premise of the Reapers being trapped in dark space right out of the water. It also blows the premise behind the Arrival DLC out of the water. The Reapers simply did not need the Alpha Relay and it makes no sense that they would choose to start their harvest by entering through the Aratoht relay and attacking the lowly Batarians first... especially when, we are told by Vigil that they attacked the Citadel first when they started the harvest of the Protheans. If they couldn't access the Citadel, then at the very least, they should have come through the Omega 4 Relay and began with an attack on Omega. So, my point is, that the Reapers were never disconnected from the relay network. They always had access through the Omega 4 relay. (I assume that you're thinking about the relay in the galaxy's core that is connected to the Omega 4.) Yes, but they would have to physicall access it before and they were apparently somewhat far from the galaxy's axis and Aratoht or any relay neighbouring to it was closer. I always understood the "they are trapped" premise as "they're in inactive state and it's unclear when they will wake up", not as "they're too far from the galaxy too reach it", I don't agree with this interpretation but it seems valid. They obviously could physically access it. The Collectors were building a Reaper there at the direct command of the Reapers. In ME1, the premise was that Sovereign needed to contact the Reapers out in dark space to let them know when to begin the harvest (to wake them up, if you prefer). Sovereign allegedly failed at that and was killed in the process. If the Reapers in dark space are not awake already, how is it that the Collectors start construction on a human Reaper (i.e. effectively beginning the harvest of humans). Harbinger (who is a Reaper) assumes direct control of the collectors repeatedly and in different locations within the galaxy. In ME1, indoctrination requires proximity. How, if Harbinger is asleep in dark space and unable to access the relay and get proximity to the Collectors, is he using them to get materials for their construction project? Obviously, if the Reapers were ever asleep, they woke up without the aid of Sovereign and knew somehow that the humans in the galaxy were ready to be harvested.
We also know that Harbinger is with the other Reapers beccause it's Harbinger in the Arrival DLC who is trying to get through the Aratoht relay with the other Reapers. In other words, Harbinger was not a Vanguard like Sovereign, who was allegedly cut off from the other Reapers and unable to even contact them without the use of the Citadel.
You can build excuses for it all day long, but the Reaper plot was poorly constructed from the get go. The problems start in ME1 and got worse in ME2. By the time ME3 came along, it was already a hugely messed up concept. The devs started ME1 without a clear concept about what the Reapers were all about, deferring us to them being "unknowable" because they themselves didn't know what they wanted to do with them as their "main" antagonists.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 19, 2019 13:01:49 GMT
They obviously could physically access it. The Collectors were building a Reaper there at the direct command of the Reapers. In ME1, the premise was that Sovereign needed to contact the Reapers out in dark space to let them know when to begin the harvest (to wake them up, if you prefer). Sovereign allegedly failed at that and was killed in the process. If the Reapers in dark space are not awake already, how is it that the Collectors start construction on a human Reaper (i.e. effectively beginning the harvest of humans). Harbinger (who is a Reaper) assumes direct control of the collectors repeatedly and in different locations within the galaxy. In ME1, indoctrination requires proximity. How, if Harbinger is asleep in dark space and unable to access the relay and get proximity to the Collectors, is he using them to get materials for their construction project? Obviously, if the Reapers were ever asleep, they woke up without the aid of Sovereign and knew somehow that the humans in the galaxy were ready to be harvested. We also know that Harbinger is with the other Reapers beccause it's Harbinger in the Arrival DLC who is trying to get through the Aratoht relay with the other Reapers. In other words, Harbinger was not a Vanguard like Sovereign, who was allegedly cut off from the other Reapers and unable to even contact them without the use of the Citadel.
You can build excuses for it all day long, but the Reaper plot was poorly constructed from the get go. The problems start in ME1 and got worse in ME2. By the time ME3 came along, it was already a hugely messed up concept. The devs started ME1 without a clear concept about what the Reapers were all about, deferring us to them being "unknowable" because they themselves didn't know what they wanted to do with them as their "main" antagonists.
Yes, the Reaper plot was largely undefined, unexplained and hard to push forward after ME1 and some things weren't fitting, but there were two plausible explanations for how they are "trapped": one that they were inactive, second thay the galaxy was too far for them to reach. ME2 invalidated both and thus made things worse. Harbinger didn't need to be close to the Collectors because they were already produced programmed to do what they do and could be remotely controlled through Generals with some QE-like stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 13:16:24 GMT
They obviously could physically access it. The Collectors were building a Reaper there at the direct command of the Reapers. In ME1, the premise was that Sovereign needed to contact the Reapers out in dark space to let them know when to begin the harvest (to wake them up, if you prefer). Sovereign allegedly failed at that and was killed in the process. If the Reapers in dark space are not awake already, how is it that the Collectors start construction on a human Reaper (i.e. effectively beginning the harvest of humans). Harbinger (who is a Reaper) assumes direct control of the collectors repeatedly and in different locations within the galaxy. In ME1, indoctrination requires proximity. How, if Harbinger is asleep in dark space and unable to access the relay and get proximity to the Collectors, is he using them to get materials for their construction project? Obviously, if the Reapers were ever asleep, they woke up without the aid of Sovereign and knew somehow that the humans in the galaxy were ready to be harvested. We also know that Harbinger is with the other Reapers beccause it's Harbinger in the Arrival DLC who is trying to get through the Aratoht relay with the other Reapers. In other words, Harbinger was not a Vanguard like Sovereign, who was allegedly cut off from the other Reapers and unable to even contact them without the use of the Citadel.
You can build excuses for it all day long, but the Reaper plot was poorly constructed from the get go. The problems start in ME1 and got worse in ME2. By the time ME3 came along, it was already a hugely messed up concept. The devs started ME1 without a clear concept about what the Reapers were all about, deferring us to them being "unknowable" because they themselves didn't know what they wanted to do with them as their "main" antagonists.
Yes, the Reaper plot was largely undefined, unexplained and hard to push forward after ME1 and some things weren't fitting, but there were two plausible explanations for how they are "trapped": one that they were inactive, second thay the galaxy was too far for them to reach. ME2 invalidated both and thus made things worse. Harbinger didn't need to be close to the Collectors because they were already produced programmed to do what they do and could be remotely controlled through Generals with some QE-like stuff. How then do Reaper IFF's get onto the Collector's ships without the Collectors being in direct contact with Reapers?
Why did Sovereign need to solicit Saren and his geth at all? Why couldn't he have just sent a message to the Collectors and get them to storm the Citadel with him to open the Relay when the signal sent to the Keepers failed?
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 19, 2019 14:10:32 GMT
Yes, the Reaper plot was largely undefined, unexplained and hard to push forward after ME1 and some things weren't fitting, but there were two plausible explanations for how they are "trapped": one that they were inactive, second thay the galaxy was too far for them to reach. ME2 invalidated both and thus made things worse. Harbinger didn't need to be close to the Collectors because they were already produced programmed to do what they do and could be remotely controlled through Generals with some QE-like stuff. How then do Reaper IFF's get onto the Collector's ships without the Collectors being in direct contact with Reapers?
I don't see why it couldn't have happened, they could have had it since the previous cycle or get instructions from the dark space how to build it or maybe it wasn't a Reaper IFF at all but a Collector one the relay honored. Idk, turning the Collectors into enemies when they could have become allies is one of the worst things ME2 did IMO ant I won't defend it.
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Post by griffith82 on Feb 19, 2019 15:15:36 GMT
Well it worked for me. That's what matters. I do agree it's not plausible irl though. |
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Post by themikefest on Feb 19, 2019 16:12:44 GMT
In ME2, the derelict reaper has the IFF. Why? Does that mean the IFF is not only used to access to Omega-4 relay, but the Citadel relay as well? The reaper is at least 37 million years old, according to TIM. Does that mean the Omega-4 relay has been around for at least that time? What if each cycle ends with the reapers using a species to abduct the next species to start building a reaper like what they did with the protheans? I would not be surprised if the Inusannon abducted protheans to start building a reaper before they arrived in the galaxy. As Vendetta says, its a pattern that's repeated itself countless times.
Why would the reapers use any other relay to enter the galaxy except the Citadel relay? For a billion years they've had no problem. Its only when the protheans somehow were able to alter the signal that forced the reapers to use another means to reach the galaxy.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 16:24:12 GMT
In ME2, the derelict reaper has the IFF. Why? Does that mean the IFF is not only used to access to Omega-4 relay, but the Citadel relay as well? The reaper is at least 37 million years old, according to TIM. Does that mean the Omega-4 relay has been around for at least that time? What if each cycle ends with the reapers using a species to abduct the next species to start building a reaper like what they did with the protheans? I would not be surprised if the Inusannon abducted protheans to start building a reaper before they arrived in the galaxy. As Vendetta says, its a pattern that's repeated itself countless times.
Why would the reapers use any other relay to enter the galaxy except the Citadel relay? For a billion years they've had no problem. Its only when the protheans somehow were able to alter the signal that forced the reapers to use another means to reach the galaxy.
Perhaps since the galactic center is where new Reapers are usually made, they have the IFF so they can navigate through there safely once completed. And yes, I imagine the IFF is used to access all things that are Reaper-only like the Citadel Relay. I also think you are correct when it comes to husks from a previous cycle serving as the Collectors did for the next cycle. For example, if the Reapers won against us I imagine the next cycle would experience the huskified Cerberus as their version of Collectors.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 17:08:05 GMT
In ME2, the derelict reaper has the IFF. Why? Does that mean the IFF is not only used to access to Omega-4 relay, but the Citadel relay as well? The reaper is at least 37 million years old, according to TIM. Does that mean the Omega-4 relay has been around for at least that time? What if each cycle ends with the reapers using a species to abduct the next species to start building a reaper like what they did with the protheans? I would not be surprised if the Inusannon abducted protheans to start building a reaper before they arrived in the galaxy. As Vendetta says, its a pattern that's repeated itself countless times.
Why would the reapers use any other relay to enter the galaxy except the Citadel relay? For a billion years they've had no problem. Its only when the protheans somehow were able to alter the signal that forced the reapers to use another means to reach the galaxy.
Perhaps since the galactic center is where new Reapers are usually made, they have the IFF so they can navigate through there safely once completed. And yes, I imagine the IFF is used to access all things that are Reaper-only like the Citadel Relay. I also think you are correct when it comes to husks from a previous cycle serving as the Collectors did for the next cycle. For example, if the Reapers won against us I imagine the next cycle would experience the huskified Cerberus as their version of Collectors. If that's the pattern though, then it should have been obvious to Sovereign that when the Citadel signal failed, he should contact the thralls from the previous cycle... instead of running around soliciting the help of members of species from within the current cycle. One of the arguments as to why he didn't attack the Citadel was that he was alone... but he's not alone in the galaxy in that he has a whole population of thralls from the previous cycle at his disposal... who, it seems, have no trouble being in contact with the Reaper Chief (i.e. Harbinger) without using the Citadel as a signaling device to "wake them up" in dark space.
It's a hamster wheel.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 19, 2019 17:20:05 GMT
Perhaps since the galactic center is where new Reapers are usually made, they have the IFF so they can navigate through there safely once completed. And yes, I imagine the IFF is used to access all things that are Reaper-only like the Citadel Relay. I also think you are correct when it comes to husks from a previous cycle serving as the Collectors did for the next cycle. For example, if the Reapers won against us I imagine the next cycle would experience the huskified Cerberus as their version of Collectors. If that's the pattern though, then it should have been obvious to Sovereign that when the Citadel signal failed, he should contact the thralls from the previous cycle... instead of running around soliciting the help of members of species from within the current cycle. One of the arguments as to why he didn't attack the Citadel was that he was alone... but he's not alone in the galaxy in that he has a whole population of thralls from the previous cycle at his disposal... who, it seems, have no trouble being in contact with the Reaper Chief (i.e. Harbinger) without using the Citadel as a signaling device to "wake them up" in dark space.
It's a hamster wheel.
Maybe they had other shit he needed them to do off screen so he couldn't use them for this and he has inside access and the geth for a fleet. Also the collectors were one ship as far as i can tell, one ship taken down by the normandy with a upgraded gun. Would it have stood a chance against the destiny ascension, much less it and the citadel fleet. He'd of still needed to co-opt the geth. Also their ship probably wouldn't tilt the odds much anyways, and he still needed a inside dude to flip the switch at the right time. So why risk the collectors when they had other shit to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 20:07:31 GMT
If that's the pattern though, then it should have been obvious to Sovereign that when the Citadel signal failed, he should contact the thralls from the previous cycle... instead of running around soliciting the help of members of species from within the current cycle. One of the arguments as to why he didn't attack the Citadel was that he was alone... but he's not alone in the galaxy in that he has a whole population of thralls from the previous cycle at his disposal... who, it seems, have no trouble being in contact with the Reaper Chief (i.e. Harbinger) without using the Citadel as a signaling device to "wake them up" in dark space.
It's a hamster wheel.
Maybe they had other shit he needed them to do off screen so he couldn't use them for this and he has inside access and the geth for a fleet. Also the collectors were one ship as far as i can tell, one ship taken down by the normandy with a upgraded gun. Would it have stood a chance against the destiny ascension, much less it and the citadel fleet. He'd of still needed to co-opt the geth. Also their ship probably wouldn't tilt the odds much anyways, and he still needed a inside dude to flip the switch at the right time. So why risk the collectors when they had other shit to do. Didn't I say earlier that "you can build excuses for it all day long..." Minions doing "other stuff" so they can't be called on is, IMO, a pretty lame one as excuses go. It's unlikely that the ship we saw leave from the Collector Base to attack the Normandy is the same ship Shepard boarded during the Collector Ship mission. It's the same type of ship. Also, the fact that Shepard is surprised when he/she is told the Collector Ship mission ship is the same one that downed the SR1 indicates that Shepard at least believes that the Collectors have more than one ship... or else he/she wouldn't be surprised.
Even if they only had one ship, wouldn't it have been better to have used ex-Protheans to find a Prothean artifact... like the Conduit?
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2019 22:37:45 GMT
Didn't I say earlier that "you can build excuses for it all day long..." Minions doing "other stuff" so they can't be called on is, IMO, a pretty lame one as excuses go. It's unlikely that the ship we saw leave from the Collector Base to attack the Normandy is the same ship Shepard boarded during the Collector Ship mission. It's the same type of ship. Also, the fact that Shepard is surprised when he/she is told the Collector Ship mission ship is the same one that downed the SR1 indicates that Shepard at least believes that the Collectors have more than one ship... or else he/she wouldn't be surprised.
Even if they only had one ship, wouldn't it have been better to have used ex-Protheans to find a Prothean artifact... like the Conduit? Didn't we repeatedly hear how the same Collector ship was following Shepard around? It seems to me like there is little to no evidence about other Collector ships. We certainly didn't see any beyond the Omega-4 relay. |
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 20, 2019 13:17:07 GMT
Didn't I say earlier that "you can build excuses for it all day long..." Minions doing "other stuff" so they can't be called on is, IMO, a pretty lame one as excuses go. It's unlikely that the ship we saw leave from the Collector Base to attack the Normandy is the same ship Shepard boarded during the Collector Ship mission. It's the same type of ship. Also, the fact that Shepard is surprised when he/she is told the Collector Ship mission ship is the same one that downed the SR1 indicates that Shepard at least believes that the Collectors have more than one ship... or else he/she wouldn't be surprised. Even if they only had one ship, wouldn't it have been better to have used ex-Protheans to find a Prothean artifact... like the Conduit? Didn't we repeatedly hear how the same Collector ship was following Shepard around? It seems to me like there is little to no evidence about other Collector ships. We certainly didn't see any beyond the Omega-4 relay. ME: Paragon Lost has another Collector ship.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 13:30:07 GMT
Didn't I say earlier that "you can build excuses for it all day long..." Minions doing "other stuff" so they can't be called on is, IMO, a pretty lame one as excuses go. It's unlikely that the ship we saw leave from the Collector Base to attack the Normandy is the same ship Shepard boarded during the Collector Ship mission. It's the same type of ship. Also, the fact that Shepard is surprised when he/she is told the Collector Ship mission ship is the same one that downed the SR1 indicates that Shepard at least believes that the Collectors have more than one ship... or else he/she wouldn't be surprised.
Even if they only had one ship, wouldn't it have been better to have used ex-Protheans to find a Prothean artifact... like the Conduit? Didn't we repeatedly hear how the same Collector ship was following Shepard around? It seems to me like there is little to no evidence about other Collector ships. We certainly didn't see any beyond the Omega-4 relay. Joker said it once during the Collector Ship mission... so that ship was the same ship; and Shepard was surprised, saying that it couldn't be a coincidence. If he/she believed that the Collectors only had one ship, he/she would not have been surprised at Joker's comment. With the Collector Ship that leaves the base (and yes, we do see one beyond the Omega 4 relay), Joker says something like "here comes an old friend to greet us." There is no conversation that indicates this is the same ship... nothing like "sensors indicate this is the same ship, etc." It's a visual assessment on Joker's part only.
Also, since the Collectors were stealing multiple colonies across the galaxy, I tend to think that they didn't do all of that and manage to dog Shepard as well with just one ship. IF it is the same individual ship doing all of that, then I would say it definitely could take on the Destiny Ascension and probably decimate a good portion of the Citadel fleet without even getting close to the Citadel. The Thannix canon that took it down was a prototype two years after Sovereign's attack on the Citadel... so it's very likely that none of the ships in the Citadel fleet were equipped with such a weapon at the end of ME1.
ETA: It's an leap to go from saying one Colector ship is dogging Shepard to assuming that the entire Collector population as a species only owns one ship. If Bioware had intended to indicate to us that only one Collector ship existed, they likely would have had Shepard reply with something like: "Well, perhaps they're a small group and only have one ship." In the end, it doesn't really matter... Saren did not have all geth at his disposal, just some heretics, and not even a single geth dreadnought is depicted as having been involved in that fight.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2019 14:12:26 GMT
Didn't we repeatedly hear how the same Collector ship was following Shepard around? It seems to me like there is little to no evidence about other Collector ships. We certainly didn't see any beyond the Omega-4 relay. ME: Paragon Lost has another Collector ship. Didn't that cartoon come out late 2012? Until that time no one knew about another collector ship. Look at what Vega says in ME3. He said it reminds him of when he took down a collector ship. It would have been nice if there was an option for Shepard to ask about that in the game. It wasn't until months later the player gets an answer if he/she chooses to watch the cartoon. I also believe one of the multiplayer maps that was available mentioned another collector ship, but for a player to know that, he/she would have to be playing multiplayer.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 20, 2019 14:26:49 GMT
ME: Paragon Lost has another Collector ship. Didn't that cartoon come out late 2012? Until that time no one knew about another collector ship. Look at what Vega says in ME3. He said it reminds him of when he took down a collector ship. It would have been nice if there was an option for Shepard to ask about that in the game. It wasn't until months later the player gets an answer if he/she chooses to watch the cartoon. I also believe one of the multiplayer maps that was available mentioned another collector ship, but for a player to know that, he/she would have to be playing multiplayer. Collectors are a fully-fledged enemy faction in ME3MP, on par with Reapers. They're said to have come from dark space on low-speed ships and you can play against them on any map (which means nothing because you can fight any enemy on any map). A ship identical to that/those ME2 one(s) is shown in the trailer of the expansion pack that introduced them. Garrus says something about "Collector swarms" on Menae but it's unclear if he meant Collectors or just seekers. To be clear, if I were Joker, I'd also think that that ship behind Omega 4 is the previously met one, that's judging by its dock's construction. Inb4 they never expected someone to reach the base so there was no need to be prepared to launch multiple ships at once – yes, but as I said, it would be only a suspicion.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2019 14:42:31 GMT
Collectors are a fully-fledged enemy faction in ME3MP, on par with Reapers. They're said to have come from dark space on low-speed ships and you can play against them on any map (which means nothing because you can fight any enemy on any map). A ship identical to that/those ME2 one(s) is shown in the trailer of the expansion pack that introduced them. And for someone to know that, he/she would have seen that trailer and/or play multiplayer. Didn't that traier come out in late summer 2012? If so, no one knew about another collector ship until that time. Can you post a link with him saying that?
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 20, 2019 15:17:34 GMT
Didn't we repeatedly hear how the same Collector ship was following Shepard around? It seems to me like there is little to no evidence about other Collector ships. We certainly didn't see any beyond the Omega-4 relay. ME: Paragon Lost has another Collector ship. Ah, right. (EDI?) destroyed the one Shepard had been on. And Vega said there was a Collector ship near him at the same time Shep was blowing up the Collector base. Forgot about that.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 20, 2019 15:37:06 GMT
Didn't we repeatedly hear how the same Collector ship was following Shepard around? It seems to me like there is little to no evidence about other Collector ships. We certainly didn't see any beyond the Omega-4 relay. Joker said it once during the Collector Ship mission... so that ship was the same ship; and Shepard was surprised, saying that it couldn't be a coincidence. If he/she believed that the Collectors only had one ship, he/she would not have been surprised at Joker's comment. With the Collector Ship that leaves the base (and yes, we do see one beyond the Omega 4 relay), Joker says something like "here comes an old friend to greet us." There is no conversation that indicates this is the same ship... nothing like "sensors indicate this is the same ship, etc." It's a visual assessment on Joker's part only.
Also, since the Collectors were stealing multiple colonies across the galaxy, I tend to think that they didn't do all of that and manage to dog Shepard as well with just one ship. IF it is the same individual ship doing all of that, then I would say it definitely could take on the Destiny Ascension and probably decimate a good portion of the Citadel fleet without even getting close to the Citadel. The Thannix canon that took it down was a prototype two years after Sovereign's attack on the Citadel... so it's very likely that none of the ships in the Citadel fleet were equipped with such a weapon at the end of ME1.
ETA: It's an leap to go from saying one Colector ship is dogging Shepard to assuming that the entire Collector population as a species only owns one ship. If Bioware had intended to indicate to us that only one Collector ship existed, they likely would have had Shepard reply with something like: "Well, perhaps their a small group and only have one ship."
Except all you face on the other side of the omega 4 relay is one ship and the base destroying those 2 things ends their threat. If they had a fleet there would still be a threat. When you are in the collector ship you comment on how it can hold all the colonists from multiple worlds on its own, in fact it was so big it could target earth for harvesting. Bad math or hyperbole I’m not sure. So no, there was no need for multiple ships. And yes the assumption people were making previously was that there were tons of collector ships that doesn’t mean they were right at that point. They didn’t think they were the husk remnants of the protheans, they thought they were a independent species behind a mystery relay. And it would make no sense to think a new species would only have 1 ship and it was being used to harvest colonies. They had no knowledge of them. Apparently if you watched a terrible cartoon you find out there was a second ship. But there weren’t fleets of them or even a fleet. And no it would get rocked by a fleet and probably the destiny ascension on its own. Yes the Normandy had a super gun for its size but ground cannons that weren’t reaper tech drive them off. They are tough but no where near reaper tough. They specifically attacked colonies because they have virtually no defenses. No cannons, no ships. Pretty much just defenses against ground forces and thanks to the swarms those were easily dealt with. |
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 20, 2019 16:15:16 GMT
Can you post a link with him saying that? Can't find it anywhere and I guess that it's only there if you have that MP pack installed. I'll check with my copy of ME3 when I can.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 16:21:12 GMT
Joker said it once during the Collector Ship mission... so that ship was the same ship; and Shepard was surprised, saying that it couldn't be a coincidence. If he/she believed that the Collectors only had one ship, he/she would not have been surprised at Joker's comment. With the Collector Ship that leaves the base (and yes, we do see one beyond the Omega 4 relay), Joker says something like "here comes an old friend to greet us." There is no conversation that indicates this is the same ship... nothing like "sensors indicate this is the same ship, etc." It's a visual assessment on Joker's part only.
Also, since the Collectors were stealing multiple colonies across the galaxy, I tend to think that they didn't do all of that and manage to dog Shepard as well with just one ship. IF it is the same individual ship doing all of that, then I would say it definitely could take on the Destiny Ascension and probably decimate a good portion of the Citadel fleet without even getting close to the Citadel. The Thannix canon that took it down was a prototype two years after Sovereign's attack on the Citadel... so it's very likely that none of the ships in the Citadel fleet were equipped with such a weapon at the end of ME1.
ETA: It's an leap to go from saying one Colector ship is dogging Shepard to assuming that the entire Collector population as a species only owns one ship. If Bioware had intended to indicate to us that only one Collector ship existed, they likely would have had Shepard reply with something like: "Well, perhaps their a small group and only have one ship."
Except all you face on the other side of the omega 4 relay is one ship and the base destroying those 2 things ends their threat. If they had a fleet there would still be a threat. When you are in the collector ship you comment on how it can hold all the colonists from multiple worlds on its own, in fact it was so big it could target earth for harvesting. Bad math or hyperbole I’m not sure. So no, there was no need for multiple ships. And yes the assumption people were making previously was that there were tons of collector ships that doesn’t mean they were right at that point. They didn’t think they were the husk remnants of the protheans, they thought they were a independent species behind a mystery relay. And it would make no sense to think a new species would only have 1 ship and it was being used to harvest colonies. They had no knowledge of them. Apparently if you watched a terrible cartoon you find out there was a second ship. But there weren’t fleets of them or even a fleet. And no it would get rocked by a fleet and probably the destiny ascension on its own. Yes the Normandy had a super gun for its size but ground cannons that weren’t reaper tech drive them off. They are tough but no where near reaper tough. They specifically attacked colonies because they have virtually no defenses. No cannons, no ships. Pretty much just defenses against ground forces and thanks to the swarms those were easily dealt with. The Collector threat ends at the destruction of the base because you destroy the Reaper larva (i.e. the reason they were taking colonists in the first place). We are clearly shown that they also have occuli, which act as fighter drone ships. We are clearly shown more than one of them attacking the Normandy as Joker crashes two against debris. Even so, Joker still talks in the singular about them. When the ship is attacked again, Joker says "That thing again" not "those things again.
Furthermore, Harbinger would not expect to have to send out more than one dreadnought and a few fighter-drones to take out a single frigate. A single Collector ship had no difficulty taking out the SR1, after all. Also, the SR2 crashes and we are told that the Collectors could assume then that the SR2 is dead... no need to send out more ships to take it out after that.
In game, up until ME3, we are shown only one Asari ship - the DA, but we don't go around assuming that's the only ship they had.
Finally, it's an assumption that is clearly refuted with Paragon Lost.
It's also not really relevant to the point that Sovereign should have known about the Collectors and should have used them against the Citadel... even if they only constituted part of the fleet that attacked the citadel, it would have strengthened his attack. He would have been using an available ally that he could control without question... none of the doubts that Saren had that necessitated Sovereign implanting him and allowed Shepard to talk him into offing himself. Knowing that the Collectors could operate within the galaxy and freely use the relay system, Sovereign had no need to spend whatever years he spent hunting up allies and risking exposure (as Vigil suggested). With the Collectors, Sovereign also would have had at least one dreadnought and probably countless occuli in the fight. With the geth heretics, there were none.
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