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Post by Iddy on Oct 2, 2018 13:30:42 GMT
Sometimes I wondered if it is illogical for an anti-blood magic Hawke to romance Merrill.
I rationalize it with the fact that when people have a certain prejudice, they dismiss the good examples as "exceptions to the rule". So Hawke can still hate blood mages, while looking at Merrill as a special case. A good person who unfortunately insists in playing with fire.
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davesin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by davesin on Oct 2, 2018 14:33:36 GMT
Rivarly path can be taken as "she's a naughty girl playing with forces beyond her ken" who has Hawke as someone trying to get her out of trouble (kinda like "I can cure this bad boy and send him on path of virtue."). While Merrill uses blood magic regardless of her relationship with Hawke, I suppose you can headcanon that Hawke is aiming for Merrill to give up on blood magic (along with eluvian obsession, which is main focus of her quests in-game).
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Post by Iddy on Oct 2, 2018 16:24:20 GMT
Rivarly path can be taken as "she's a naughty girl playing with forces beyond her ken" who has Hawke as someone trying to get her out of trouble (kinda like "I can cure this bad boy and send him on path of virtue."). While Merrill uses blood magic regardless of her relationship with Hawke, I suppose you can headcanon that Hawke is aiming for Merrill to give up on blood magic (along with eluvian obsession, which is main focus of her quests in-game). I did the friendship path, even though he hates blood magic. During Act 1 and 2, my Hawke wasn't the kinda guy who would take the reins and make choices for other people. Denying Merrill the arulin'holm would be too intrusive for him. But Leandra's death changed everything. He blames himself because when Aveline asked for help with investigating the murders of the other women, he initially refused. And when he finally joined the effort, he clearly didn't want to be there. In the three years after she died, he realized that selfish behavior was wrong and became a much more responsible person. But by that point, it was too late to change Merrill's path.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2018 1:24:45 GMT
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 29, 2018 19:58:25 GMT
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 31, 2018 19:10:14 GMT
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 15, 2018 21:11:11 GMT
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Post by Iddy on Nov 18, 2018 0:07:36 GMT
I think the rivalry path should've been about whether Merrill should deal with demons and practice blood magic.
Instead, it focused on the eluvian being dangerous, which it objectively isn't.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 19, 2018 3:23:04 GMT
Merrill being left to the flames, Josephine being chosen as the freak in the sheets, what is up with the results of these polls? They're all wrong!
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Post by Catilina on Nov 19, 2018 9:58:47 GMT
I think the rivalry path should've been about whether Merrill should deal with demons and practice blood magic. Instead, it focused on the eluvian being dangerous, which it objectively isn't. You're right, but Hawke can consider, that it is. The Eluvian killed Tamlen.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Nov 20, 2018 4:15:54 GMT
I think the rivalry path should've been about whether Merrill should deal with demons and practice blood magic. Instead, it focused on the eluvian being dangerous, which it objectively isn't. I have a feeling that the reason the Eluvian was tainted is that it was connected to a section of the Deep Roads, which would explain where all the Darkspawn in the ruins came from. That would make the Eluvian dangerous, as if Merrill ever reactivated the mirror, that would risk creating a beachhead for Darkspawn right in the middle of Lowtown.
Of course, Hawke doesn't know this (and my speculation where it leads is only conjecture, admittedly), but that doesn't mean they're wrong in thinking the mirror is a potentially dangerous magical artefact.
But even ignoring the potential danger of the mirror, Hawke might see that the mirror is only a projection of Merrill's inability to accept the death of Tamlen (and Mahariel), believing that proving the Mirror can help the Dalish will erase the senselessness of her kinsmen's death(s).
Add to that the loss of the clan's halla, several hunters and Pol at the hands of the Varterral, the Keeper and potentially even her whole clan, that only compounds her guilt and desire to make all those deaths mean something.
The Eluvian may not be inherently dangerous, but the game does paint her fixation with it as being an unhealthy obsession. This is best shown by scenes in Act 3, where Varric is begging her to go out and remember to eat (if unromanced) or Hawke discovers she's been sneaking back to her shack to work on it (if romanced).
Merrill isn't wrong for wanting to restore the Eluvian or bring back a piece of her people's history, but it's gone beyond that to instead become an emotional crutch to avoid accepting Tamlen's death and her deep isolation after alienating her clan.
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Post by Walter Black on Nov 20, 2018 23:26:12 GMT
Merrill being left to the flames, Josephine being chosen as the freak in the sheets, what is up with the results of these polls? They're all wrong! If Josie's romance arc had been portrayed as Wait Until Marriage or Aesexual or Demisexual, you would have a point. I wouldn't have minded that, as it would have affirmed Josephine's agency and beliefs, and given players a different romance we haven't had before. But that's the problem with "ambiguous" storytelling; since the writer refuse to confirm one way or the other, you can't say she isn't a freak in the sheets...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 21, 2018 0:30:24 GMT
Merrill being left to the flames, Josephine being chosen as the freak in the sheets, what is up with the results of these polls? They're all wrong! If Josie's romance arc had been portrayed as Wait Until Marriage or Aesexual or Demisexual, you would have a point. I wouldn't have minded that, as it would have affirmed Josephine's agency and beliefs, and given players a different romance we haven't had before. But that's the problem with "ambiguous" storytelling; since the writer refuse to confirm one way or the other, you can't say she isn't a freak in the sheets... I wasn’t being completely serious in that post. That said as expressed before I would love for them to make a romance where it is explicit in that regard. Maybe Vaea if she is in DA4 since one of the writers of the comics talked about how they have her written her as having “a general lack of sexual attraction to anything” and are “still deciding on how that will play out”.
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mikaelnovasun
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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mikaelnovasun
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Dec 12, 2018 18:37:55 GMT
Playing through DA2 again and romancing Merrill with the import of a Dalish Warden. I really like how it ties in with her quest arc, and to me at least it seems part of her obsession with the mirror is due to the Warden and her having something going on. The way the camera focuses on her as the Warden left the clan always led me to believe they had something going on. I head canon it as the Warden saw her as a girl\woman in addition to the clan's First, while the rest of the clan only saw her as the First and not what was underneath. Given how quickly the clan seems to turn on Merrill it is a good bet Tamlen and Theron were her only friends. I also head canon that part of her attraction to Hawke is because he shares similar qualities with the Warden,(driven, yet sarcastic/playful, and someone who sees beyond her title/magic).
I like the idea that at first she was obsessed with the mirror due to wanting to help/save the Warden&Tamlen. Then at some point during the time skip after the deep roads Merrill hears something about how the Warden in the company of Flemeth's daughter used an Eluvian and it renews her desire to repair the Eluvian that started the whole thing.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 12, 2018 19:22:12 GMT
I really enjoy rivalry!Merrill.
It's almost like she is another person. She sounds a lot more mature and assertive.
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mikaelnovasun
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Dec 12, 2018 20:05:08 GMT
I really enjoy rivalry!Merrill. It's almost like she is another person. She sounds a lot more mature and assertive. My issue with rivaling her is I feel Hawke doesn't take her seriously. He/she is doing the same thing as everyone else and second guessing Merrill. I like the idea of Hawke believing her and trusting her to take care of herself. I find it interesting that people doubt Merrill being strong enough/sure enough to see her plan through, yet they never question the player character's ability to do so. Hawke does numerous fool hardy things often with disasterous results but very few question it. I like the idea of a Hawke who supports Merrill and is ready if things go bad and she needs help, instead of telling her that her chosen path will end badly. Despite Merrill's naivete of life outside a Dalish Clan I find her and Varric the two most mature companions in DA2.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 12, 2018 20:19:14 GMT
I really enjoy rivalry!Merrill. It's almost like she is another person. She sounds a lot more mature and assertive. No, she's not more mature. The rivalry to me just disrespectful enough, but depends, if Hawke gives her the knife, then less disrespectful but to restrain it really unjust, and Hawke behaves like a parent (I know better what is the best to you, than you) – but Merrill's not a child, and Hawke's not her parent. Merrill's rivalry with a firmly anti-blood magic Hawke is natural – my problem rather the romance. ... and the Arulin'Holm...
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Post by Iddy on Dec 12, 2018 20:59:10 GMT
I really enjoy rivalry!Merrill. It's almost like she is another person. She sounds a lot more mature and assertive. My issue with rivaling her is I feel Hawke doesn't take her seriously. He/she is doing the same thing as everyone else and second guessing Merrill. I like the idea of Hawke believing her and trusting her to take care of herself. I find it interesting that people doubt Merrill being strong enough/sure enough to see her plan through, yet they never question the player character's ability to do so. Hawke does numerous fool hardy things often with disasterous results but very few question it. I like the idea of a Hawke who supports Merrill and is ready if things go bad and she needs help, instead of telling her that her chosen path will end badly. Despite Merrill's naivete of life outside a Dalish Clan I find her and Varric the two most mature companions in DA2. I think dealing with demons is foolhardy, no matter how confident you are that you know what you're doing.
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mikaelnovasun
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 553 Likes: 1,670
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mikaelnovasun
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Dec 12, 2018 23:25:40 GMT
My issue with rivaling her is I feel Hawke doesn't take her seriously. He/she is doing the same thing as everyone else and second guessing Merrill. I like the idea of Hawke believing her and trusting her to take care of herself. I find it interesting that people doubt Merrill being strong enough/sure enough to see her plan through, yet they never question the player character's ability to do so. Hawke does numerous fool hardy things often with disasterous results but very few question it. I like the idea of a Hawke who supports Merrill and is ready if things go bad and she needs help, instead of telling her that her chosen path will end badly. Despite Merrill's naivete of life outside a Dalish Clan I find her and Varric the two most mature companions in DA2. I think dealing with demons is foolhardy, no matter how confident you are that you know what you're doing. Was it a Pride Demon or a Spirit of Wisdom. Merrill calls it a spirit continuously and even then says all spirits are dangerous in banter with Anders. The keeper always refers to it as a demon trying to eventually possess Merrill. To reference a certain apostate: go in expecting a spirit and treat it with respect and caution you get a spirit; go in expecting a demon your will/expectation corrupts the spirit.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Dec 20, 2018 2:21:36 GMT
I think dealing with demons is foolhardy, no matter how confident you are that you know what you're doing. Was it a Pride Demon or a Spirit of Wisdom. Merrill calls it a spirit continuously and even then says all spirits are dangerous in banter with Anders. The keeper always refers to it as a demon trying to eventually possess Merrill. To reference a certain apostate: go in expecting a spirit and treat it with respect and caution you get a spirit; go in expecting a demon your will/expectation corrupts the spirit. For all we know, it could have been a Spirit of Wisdom at one point.
What if being bound on Sundermount for millennia, unable to carry out it's purpose, was what corrupted it?
(Sort of like what happened to Solas' friend or the Librarians in Vir Dirthara)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 20, 2018 3:12:39 GMT
Was it a Pride Demon or a Spirit of Wisdom. Merrill calls it a spirit continuously and even then says all spirits are dangerous in banter with Anders. The keeper always refers to it as a demon trying to eventually possess Merrill. To reference a certain apostate: go in expecting a spirit and treat it with respect and caution you get a spirit; go in expecting a demon your will/expectation corrupts the spirit. For all we know, it could have been a Spirit of Wisdom at one point.
What if being bound on Sundermount for millennia, unable to carry out it's purpose, was what corrupted it?
(Sort of like what happened to Solas' friend or the Librarians in Vir Dirthara)
Or even just everyone else expecting it to be a demon. I recall Solas saying that since the Fade mirrors reality, if you go in expecting a demon that is what will appear.
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mikaelnovasun
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 553 Likes: 1,670
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mikaelnovasun
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Dec 20, 2018 12:32:45 GMT
Was it a Pride Demon or a Spirit of Wisdom. Merrill calls it a spirit continuously and even then says all spirits are dangerous in banter with Anders. The keeper always refers to it as a demon trying to eventually possess Merrill. To reference a certain apostate: go in expecting a spirit and treat it with respect and caution you get a spirit; go in expecting a demon your will/expectation corrupts the spirit. For all we know, it could have been a Spirit of Wisdom at one point.
What if being bound on Sundermount for millennia, unable to carry out it's purpose, was what corrupted it?
(Sort of like what happened to Solas' friend or the Librarians in Vir Dirthara)
We don't know the purpose for which it was bound. Was the original binding done in a way that did not hinder the spirit from fulling its purpose? Take the knight enchanter for example, they bind a spirit to a hilt that allows the spirit to still fulfill its purpose, ie spirit of courage/bravery/valor while being used as a weapon. Was it trying to fulfill its purpose when it reached out and contacted Marethari, and Merrill? Did its corruption start when Merathari immediately concluded it was a demon while Merrill judge it correctly as a spirit?
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ewigDunkelheit
N3
Exalt the Dwarf Age!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 455 Likes: 888
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Exalt the Dwarf Age!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on Dec 31, 2018 23:41:48 GMT
My issue with rivaling her is I feel Hawke doesn't take her seriously. He/she is doing the same thing as everyone else and second guessing Merrill. I like the idea of Hawke believing her and trusting her to take care of herself. I find it interesting that people doubt Merrill being strong enough/sure enough to see her plan through, yet they never question the player character's ability to do so. Hawke does numerous fool hardy things often with disasterous results but very few question it. I like the idea of a Hawke who supports Merrill and is ready if things go bad and she needs help, instead of telling her that her chosen path will end badly. Despite Merrill's naivete of life outside a Dalish Clan I find her and Varric the two most mature companions in DA2. My "red" Hawke went the rivalry path on the romance, and still supported her. That is, specifically supporting Merrill as a person, while objecting to Blood Magic and the enlistment of spirits for Eluvian reconstruction. It might be due to the fact that my confrontational and violent Hawke occasionally used "blue" responses with loved ones, but it seemed to lessen the negative impact somewhat. I definitely agree with your assessment of Merrill as being capable and intelligent.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 24, 2019 20:48:12 GMT
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Post by Iddy on Feb 2, 2019 9:03:10 GMT
I love that moment when Merrill asks if the dog could be made to sleep elsewhere and Hawke asks "Is it because he watches when we... you know."
It means there is plenty of off-screen sex going on and it isn't limited to cutscenes.
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