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Post by Sifr on Feb 1, 2017 8:42:50 GMT
Act I is built around Hawke wanting to get into the expedition. Again, it can be considered obsessive behavior. Only if you don't understand what obsessive means, which clearly seems to be the case. Says the person who's claiming that Hawke is obsessive based on zero evidence save their own headcanon. Since I've actually provided in-game dialogue backing up my case, while you've only presented your opinion that Hawke is obsessive based on your own beliefs, I'd say that my argument holds more water and actually is supported by the game. I'm really starting to think you haven't, given how little you seem to understand when it comes to the character's motivations. Since I must belabour this point once more, the Darkspawn presence is extremely low during this brief window of time that they were taking advantage of. It took three weeks of travelling before the expedition even ran into any trouble whatsoever, including encountering any Darkspawn. Compare this to the massive Darkspawn presence the Inquisitor encountered during Descent, that showed how totally frickin' crazy the Deep Roads can become in the interim between Blights... and that was with only ten years of the Darkspawn rebuilding their numbers following the Fifth Blight. Will answer both of these here, since they're basically the same point. Kirkwall is bursting with refugees, the camps stretch for miles outside the city and even those lucky enough to gain entry, often have to dwell within Lowtown slums or in Darktown. There is a massive crown for apostates to blend into and hide from the Templars, thus explaining how Mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill could all spend years within the city without being identified and dragged into the Circle. We learn in banter with Aveline that Bethany was already looking into the Circle and expresses that she's tired of feeling like a burden on her family. For all we know, the reason the Templars found her may have been that she gave herself up to spare her family having to run again. Or her attempts to find more information lead to her accidentally raising some red flags that gave herself away. The Templars in Kirkwall are also shown to be highly corrupt, thus making it easier for apostates to bribe their way to freedom, which is another means that Hawke's family uses to keep off the radar. The Mage Underground was even able to exist under the Templar's noses for several years before Meredith's crackdowns wipe it out and force the survivors into hiding. Meeran and Athenril admit during the prologue that they are able to employ Mages without the Templars interfering, due to paying them off with various bribes. There are also Templars in Kirkwall who look the other way because they do not believe that Meredith's methods are just, which is why Thrask was able to amass followers in Act 3, hoping to eventually stage a coup to remove Meredith from power. So yeah, Kirkwall may have a large Templar presence, but that doesn't mean Big Brother is watching people vigilantly for signs of illegal magic use. Meredith's primary concern for most the game is keeping the mages within the Circle contained, rather than trying to round up apostates. She only goes after the Mage Underground when they pose a threat to her and due to her increasing paranoia from the Lyrium Idol's influence.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 1, 2017 23:49:59 GMT
Considering that Hawke's preoccupation with gaining wealth lead to him being part of the expedition, it actually is. Wanting to get your family out of poverty and improve your living conditions is not obsessive behaviour. If wanting to help your family means you can't be considered obsessive, then Merrill can't be considered obsessive for wanting to end the plight of the People. I'm not going to pretend that venturing into an area where the darkspawn dwell should be mitigated because because they aren't as numerous as they usually are, particularly when even physical contact with darkspawn blood will permanently corrupt a person and turn them into a ghoul. The darkspawn are one of the most dangerous creatures in all of known civilization. Which completely misses the point I made. With very few Darkspawn currently down there, the chances of running into them and becoming infected by their blood is at an all-time low. If you don't bring your sibling along, no-one in the entire expedition gets infected at all... so clearly it's not nearly the suicide mission you think it is. Your "point" was to minimize the dangers of the darkspawn to a ridiculous degree. To ignore the hazards caused by contact with darkspawn blood and how there's no cure for it. With the hope that there would be treasure in this lost thaig that was located in the darkspawn infested Deep Roads. Which all the information they'd gathered suggested did exist... and which they actually did manage to find. Which was not a certainty at all. Wanting to "improve their station" doesn't prove that I'm wrong when I'm pointing to Hawke's willingness to go to dangerous lengths for a rumored treasure in the Deep Roads. Again, the argument can be made that Hawke was obsessed. You're more than welcome not to share that position, but so far, you haven't invalidated it as a position people can take. That does not qualify as an obsession.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Considering an entire Act revolves around Hawke's focus on getting onto the expedition, I'd say I'm not inclined to share your opinion on the matter. I'm pretty sure "practically everyone" in Thedas does not aspire to improve the lives of an entire race of people. Again, how does Merrill actually plan on doing that? She's fixing up a busted old mirror in order to bring back a piece of Elven history, but she has barely the foggiest idea on what it does. How does she think that would have any meaningful impact on the day to day lives of Elven people throughout Thedas, whether they be Dalish or City Elves? First, you ignored that "practically everyone" in Thedas doesn't aspire to improve the lives of an entire race of people, contrary to your earlier claim. Second, Merrill isn't fixing an old mirror, she's constructing an Eluvian. Third, Briala's story already shows that the Eluvians can make a positive impact for the elves, so I'm vexed as to why you're even asking how the Eluvians can be useful. In comparison, Hawke used the money from the expedition to not only improve their lives and their families, but according to Aveline poured a lot of money into Kirkwall in order to try to help improve the lives of other people in the city. I've never seen any scene with Aveline where she said that. I have seen the scene where Hawke is criticized for simply using his or her fortune for his or her own interests. Hawke also spends their free time actively clearly out bandits and thugs who plague the city, which has an overall more positive impact on their community. Technically speaking, so does Merrill any time the player elects to defeat waves of bandits who parachute from the sky (even in-doors). Merrill explicitly says that the Eluvian can help the People, and Briala's storyline involving the Eluvian addresses how useful they can be; Gaspard notes it could have changed everything for the Orlesian Empire, and Briala uses the Orlesian network to leverage rights for the elves. Clearly, Merrill was absolutely right in saying that the Eluvians could help the People. Gaspard and Briala discovered what the Eluvians are and the existence of the network, that they recognise could potentially upset the balance of power in Thedas if someone managed to gain control over it. When they make this claim, they can do so with both knowledge and authority on the subject matter. Merrill on the other hand does not know any of these details. She doesn't know what Eluvian does and only can guess at it. Her belief that it could change things for the Elves is completely unfounded because she doesn't have any of the facts necessary to make such a wild claim, even if we as the audience know she's right. You say that without even knowing what the lore she studied read on the matter; in other words, you're in no position to make any such claim because you don't know what she read about the Eluvians. From her point of view, she's trying to give a HAM radio to a group of starving people and hoping that it'll change their lives. It doesn't matter that it's actually a friggin' Stargate, she thinks it's an extremely fancy way to communicate across long distances... so how does that help anyone? Again, considering you don't actually know what she read about the Eluvian, and Merrill never goes into much detail on the Eluvians (similar to Morrigan in "Witch Hunt"), you can't make any such claim with any degree of certainty. ]Merrill wasn't fixing an Eluvian, she was constructing one. Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and even extrapolated information from the shard. Admittedly, Merrill doesn't delve much into the Eluvians, but neither does Morrigan when she activates one in the Dragonbone Wastes. By using shards from an already-existent Eluvian that was destroyed to restore it to full functionality. No. Not shards - a single shard. The remaining shards were left behind, which is also the premise behind "Witch Hunt". For someone so ready to vilify Merrill's use of the Eluvian she built and who claims to extent of her knowledge about Eluvians, you don't seem to actually know what Merrill did when it came to constructing the Eluvian or even that it was a single shard she took from Ferelden. Since it still contains components from the original device, one can't even employ Theseus' Paradox over whether an object that replaces all it's components is the same object anymore... it's still the same Eluvian as before, Merrill simply reassembled the pieces and put them in a brand new frame. No, it's not. It's an Eluvian that simply incorporated a single shard, which is mentioned both in-game and from the developers; even Gaider specified that it was just a single shard.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 2, 2017 14:24:54 GMT
If wanting to help your family means you can't be considered obsessive, then Merrill can't be considered obsessive for wanting to end the plight of the People. That's a false equivalence, given that Merrill is not helping end the plight of the People. She's trying to fix a broken Eluvian, that's all. Even if she could manage to make work (which she can't, since she doesn't have the key), it would not magically fix all the myriad of problems that the Elves suffer from. While restoring a lost bit of their heritage is a noble goal, it's a completely unrealistic expectation to expect the Eluvian to end the Elves suffering. And in doing so, she's been neglecting everyone and everything around her. That's why it's an obsession. And your point is to over-exaggerate the danger to an even more ridiculous degree. All while ignoring that the unique circumstances that occur post-Blight, allow for them to enter the Deep Roads without having to run afoul of many Darkspawn, substantially mitigating the risk of people contracting the Blight. The game spells this out for us several times. You know all that abandoned stuff in the Deep Roads that's just lying around? Turns out that's worth something if you pick it up. Finding a Thaig that's not had scavengers go through it already, gives you far more of the pick of the loot. We're even told by Varric that he deems the information that they're working from as credible; Hawke: There might be nothing down there except Darkspawn and rubble. How can you be sure we'll make a profit? Varric: Bartrand isn't grasping at strings. He's operating on good information. Some of the Deep Roads are so old, even the Dwarves have forgotten them. We just need to get down there, then Bartrand will lead the way. You and I will be there to handle problems. Considering that you fail to understand what "obession" means even when it's been explained multiple times, as well as how it applies to Merrill's entire storyline and not to Hawke's, forgive me if I'm not inclined to care about your opinion, since it's not in the slightest way backed up by the games actual events. Firstly, I've explained why Merrill's goal is unrealistic. She doesn't know what it does or how to turn it on, so the Eluvian is completely useless to anyone. You're also completely glossing over Merrill's unhealthy behaviour regarding the mirror by claiming "But she's trying to save the Elves" as if that's any justifiable reason for her to neglect her own well-being and her relationships with the people around her. Merrill's story in DA2 doesn't end with her having helped anyone, only harming herself and people she loves. Secondly, you're arguing a point that no-one was ever denying. I have repeatedly stated that Merrill is restoring the mirror and reconstructing the Eluvian, so I don't understand why you're being so pedantic and quibbling over semantics here? Thirdly, you're ignoring that Briala became aware of both the Eluvians true function, the larger network and how to access them. Merrill does not have any knowledge of this, so her assumption that the Eluvians can help the people is unrealistic, because she has no understanding of what they actually do. I'm not denying that the Eluvians are a game-changer. The point I've been making that you seem to be missing, is that when Briala states that the Eluvians are extremely useful, it's because she knows firsthand the implications for what they can do. Merrill lacks any of this knowledge and barely even grasps what she's working on. You cannot use Briala and the audience's knowledge to justify Merrill's completely unrealistic expectations that fixing the Eluvian will somehow help the People. We know how useful the Eluvians can be, but she doesn't. Just because Merrill turns out to have guessed correctly that the Eluvians were important, that doesn't mean she wasn't wrong to assume this without any actual evidence. "Calling on the Captain", the first conversation you have with Aveline in Act 2. (Diplomatic version) Hawke: You had to know cleaning up this mess would be difficult. Aveline: It's not the challenge. It's the unending part. And really, I blame you. You poured money into a pot that was already full. Everything has shifted. Good job validating the fears of every anti-Fereldan in Kirkwall. (Sarcastic version) Hawke: That's why I remain unimportant. Less pressure. Aveline: As if the return of the Amells hasn't set Hightown on his ear. Hawke: As long as it's off it's ass. Aveline: Sure, have your fun. But the money you've poured into Kirkwall has tipped what balance there was.Hawke: I didn't realise I was making it worse by getting ahead. Aveline: I'm just harrassing you. Although you are a bit like the centre of a hurricane. You've changed fortunes for many people. Not always for the better. You mean the few times that Hawke is actually able to drag Merrill out of her shack long enough to do something other than obsess over the mirror? And you say that without knowing that Merrill studied any lore about the Eluvians whatsoever, so you can't claim that she's read anything. From the game, it appears she's largely working things out by herself as she goes along. That she is able to get as far as she does with such limited knowledge is an impressive feat, no-one's saying otherwise. But as for actual lore on Eluvians, it appears to be extremely rare and hard to come by. In Witch Hunt, it seems that there's only two books in the entire Circle Library that mention the Tevinters failed attempts to unlock the Eluvian's secrets, as well as a rare tome that Morrigan stole from Ariane's clan. As I pointed about directly above this, we don't know that she read anything at all, given the rarity of information on Eluvians in modern Thedas. Then I was mistaken on the amount of shards she was using in her restoration efforts on the mirror. Although since no-one was denying that she was working on Eluvian whatsoever, us going around in circles on this matter is completely irrelevant to the actual subject we were discussing in the first place? That topic being that the game clearly paints her obsessive fixation with restoring the mirror as dangerously unhealthy. Pointing out something that's present within the game and a major theme of her character arc is not vilifying her. On the other hand, you have been vilifying Hawke by trying to claim that wanting to escape out of poverty somehow makes them obsessive. An assertion that is nowhere backed up in the game, compared to the many characters who voice concerns over Merrill's unhealthy behaviour across the entire narrative of the game.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Feb 2, 2017 14:26:33 GMT
As an aside, if you want to try to convince people that Hawke is "obsessed" by pursuing the Deep Roads Expedition, you're free to create another thread for it. We don't really need to have this pointless argument littering up the Merrill thread.
(Spoiler tagging my previous posts for the convenience of everyone else, so they don't have to spend all day scrolling down)
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Post by Catilina on Feb 2, 2017 14:29:32 GMT
lobselvith8 If you want a parallel to Merrill's obsession, let's use Anders! He's definitely better example (not perfect, but better). Hawke and expedition does not work in this context.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 2, 2017 22:49:34 GMT
Merrill's conversation with Sebastian and her familiarity with Nyssa illustrate that she does know her neighbors. And considering that Merrill is the one who protects these people from the Mage-Templar War (as explained by Varric), that suggests that the dialogue speaking of her familiarity with the elves of the alienage is accurate, as it makes little sense for the elves to trust someone who is a total stranger to them with their lives. WoT is also in contradiction when it comes to Sera's age. It's not a book of indisputable fact. So her familiarity with Nyssa (who works practically on Merrill's doorstep) and Philomena (a crazy woman who throws things) someone proves that Merrill somehow knows all her neighbours, despite her own admission that she barely knows any of them? Nyssa doesn't work on Merrill's doorstep, even if you ignore the ludonarrative dissonance (as Kirkwall clearly isn't to scale), and if Merrill was the insular hermit you suggest, then she shouldn't know Nyssa at all. She shouldn't even know Philomena's name because she shouldn't know anyone in the alienage who would be able to tell her that person's name. That's the obvious issue with your exaggeration. You also seem to have forgotten that Merrill protecting the Elves occurs during the Mage-Templar War, years after the events of DA2. You mean three years later, of which an indeterminate portion was spent on the run if Hawke protected the mages from Meredith, and presumably that's also the case if he or she became Viscount given that Cassandra had to seek out Varric to get an answer about Hawke (since there's still a disappearance involved even when fulfilling the Right of Annulment as Hawke brings up the Red Templars taking over, forcing them to vacate the role of Viscount). Merrill gives up trying to fix the Eluvian entirely following the death of Marethari in 9:37. After losing her clan (either to death or banishment), Merrill makes the decision to finally interact with her neighbours and focus her efforts on helping the Elves of her new community... which is completely in line with what we later learn she's doing by 9:41. Aside from the fact that she's already interacting with her neighbors, Merrill's dialogue in that scene can vary, meaning she may not give up on making the Eluvian she constructed operational. WOT does have some lore hiccups when it comes to dates, but overall the information is far more solid than your headcanons. If I'm pointing to Merrill's actual dialogue in being familiar with denizens of the alienage, that's clearly not an example of using headcanon. I never said Hawke was rich at that point; I said he had enough money to make a life for himself outside of Kirkwall. Considering this is exact amount needed to co-fund the expedition into the Deep Roads, it's hardly the chump change you're suggesting it is. Which I have already disproved by pointing out that the entire Free Marches are completely packed with refugees. Trying to make a life outside of Kirkwall is not an option, nor is something ever suggested by any character, with the only time they even do mention going elsewhere it's to try another city. The time it's referenced that other places in the Free Marches have Ferelden refugees is when Hawke initially arrives at the Gallows; it's also before Hawke is able to accumulate a fair amount of money in Act I, which is a clear change in circumstances from when he or she had relatively little money. By trying to use dialogue that's found at such an early part of the game, you're not proving anything. Hawke never even makes any suggestion they could use the money for the expedition to escape to the country. Stick to facts from the game, not your own headcanon. Hawke being unwilling to entertain alternatives to venturing into the Deep Roads (further than "anyone's ever dared" by Bartrand's own admission) doesn't dismiss the argument that can be made that his behavior can be said to be obsessive. That I brought up a logical alternative is something you simply ignore because Hawke refuses to acknowledge any other possibility than this expedition to enter the Deep Roads (with Varric even using the phrase "a thousand darkspawn between you and the exit" because he clearly wants someone willing to combat them if the need arises). Given the serious dangers posed by the darkspawn (who conquered the dwarven kingdoms that ran the span of Thedas), I don't see how you can act as if the darkspawn aren't a threat. Even physical contact with the Messenger (in Awakening) gave people the blight. Given that I'm talking about a point in time where Hawke makes a fair amount of money - which you already acknowledged above, although you seemed to regard it as chump change despite it being sufficient enough to fund an expedition into the Deep Roads - I don't see why you keep referencing back to a point in time before this. Except that Hawke's money didn't fund the entire expedition, as we're told that Bartrand had sunk a lot of money into the expedition but was coming up short. 50 Sovereigns seems to have been the minimum amount that Bartrand needed to get things actually rolling, which was how Hawke was able to bargain to become a partner. I never said Hawke's money alone funded the entire expedition, but the entire reason Hawke is accepted as a partner in this expedition is because the money brought forth (with Bartrand's share) is used to pay for "food, equipment, and hirelings", and Hawke is bringing enough of a share that he's accepted as a partner since his money is used to fund the expedition. So while more money than most refugees are able to scramble together, it's hardly an impressive amount of wealth. Later in the game, we can shell out just over a third of that (15 Sovereigns) just to buy some decent pickaxes for the miners at the Bone Pit. Paying for equipment for miners isn't a good example to make to minimize the amount of money that Hawke is able to accumulate at that point. And nothing you wrote changes what I explained above. Except for the part where it demonstrates that Merrill explicitly ignoring someone because her overwhelming curiosity got the better of her. This is one of the countless many times depicted in the games that Merrill ignores those around her trying to warn her of the danger, because she doesn't want to hear what they're saying and thinks she knows better. No, it wasn't about curiosity, it was about Merrill putting the time and effort to do the research, and focusing on constructing an Eluvian because she believed the technology could benefit the People. Her refusal to heed the advice of Marethari, who tells her to give up her fixation on the mirror and avoid the cave containing Audacity, shows clear obsessive behaviour. Marethari values Elven history just as much as Merrill does, but after the death of Tamlen (and Mahariel), she recognises that the mirror is too dangerous and some things perhaps should be forgotten. Marethari gives no indication that she's done any research into the Eluvian, and even her dialogue references that she simply thinks the Eluvians should stay buried. Marethari's arguments against this course of action don't even make any sense in Acts I, II, or III. In fact, Marethari is the one who releases Audacity, and then tries to kill Merrill as an abomination in the name of protecting her (which is completely asinine). Gaider already confirmed that she was constructing the Eluvian based on lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the shard she cleansed, and that she incorporated the shard into the construction of the Eluvian she was building. Funny enough, not only does Merrill explicitly tell an aggressive Hawke that she has no intention of releasing Audacity, but Marethari openly admits that she set Audacity free because she believes the ancient spirit will escape through the restored Eluvian. At no point does Marethari claim that Merrill would have made a deal with Audacity. Gaider confirmed that Merrill was restoring the broken Eluvian by taking the mirror shards and placing them in a new frame. No, Gaider didn't say that. He said she was building an Eluvian, and that she simply incorporated a single shard into its construction. He also never said that she took the frame from the Elven Ruins, and considering it's a completely different frame your statement makes absolutely no sense. No-one was arguing that point, unless you're being deliberately pedantic and somehow don't understand that "Restore the mirror" is synonymous with "Reconstruct the Eluvian", when either Merrill uses both terms interchangeably to describe what she's doing. It had to do with you being wrong, as I explained above. Likewise, no-one is arguing that Marethari wasn't wrong in her mistaken assumption the Eluvian would free the demon or that Merrill would make a deal. However when you consider how easily Merrill fell under the sway of the demon in "Night Terrors", you can understand why Marethari might have been concerned about this possibility. Using a quest where everyone betrays Hawke in a matter of seconds is like using Cullen handwaving the threat about Anders plotting against the Chantry when he's standing right next to Hawke. Wanting to be rich doesn't disprove my point. Yeah it does, try again. Considering the lengths Hawke is willing to go to achieve that goal, it doesn't. If you recall, my initial point was that while one could say Merrill was obsessive, the same is also true of Hawke. To call it a 'false equivalency', and then completely miss the point of what I actually said, doesn't quite fit. And in the statement you quoted, I'm criticizing you for what seems to be your double-standard of exempting Hawke from being obsessive despite him filling the same parameters as Merrill. Which completely misses the point of what constitutes an obsession, the completely different goals that Hawke and Merrill have, that Merrill's behaviour is self-destructive and negatively impacts those around her, none of which apply to Hawke. Funding an expedition with Bartrand that puts the members of the expedition in a situation where their lives are in danger, and willingly taking two people to his side so that he can potentially become rich, is exactly the kind of behavior that can be argued to be obsessive. Stories have highlighted obsessive behavior with characters who have done much less. Again, people like you seem to put Merrill in a very unfavorable position for trying to utilize revolutionary technology that could irrevocably change the lives of the People in Thedas, but you're more than willing to minimize Hawke's role in an expedition that puts everyone in a dangerous place where they could all potentially perish at the hands of darkspawn for the sake of a fabled treasure. You've also made it clear you think Hawke's actions are excusable because he's doing this to help his family, while you make no such consideration for Merrill trying to help the Elvhen. I continue to find your position to be incredibly hypocritical. I'd say that risking one's life and sanity by venturing into the Deep Roads is not a sign of normal or healthy behavior. I'd also point out that Merrill didn't isolate herself from everyone and she outright tells a romanced Hawke that she's heading to her home because she left some things undone there. Going into the Deep Roads only three times in one's entire life is not enough to qualify for "unhealthy behaviour". Spending several years trying to fix a busted up old mirror while neglected everyone around you and your own health, definitely is. Venturing into the Deep Roads for money can be argued to be obsessive and unhealthy behavior considering how the darkspawn are one of the most dangerous forces in the known world, and have threatened to bring all life to extinction more than once. And considering Merrill isn't fixing a mirror but constructing a new Eluvian, did you state that simply so I'd point out that what you wrote isn't true? As I mentioned several posts back, Merrill is actively lying to a romanced Hawke in that scene, made obvious by how her extremely noticeable pause about why she's going to her old house, before coming up with an explanation that she has left some things behind (such as a mirror). Telling Hawke that she's going to her home in the alienage because she's left things undone isn't a lie, though. It's obvious that Hawke knows too, since the diplomatic response even has them say that whatever she's doing, they hope she's careful. That's not something you say to someone you're assuming is going back for some old hairbrushes and shirts, they know she's going back to work on the mirror. Considering that Merrill doesn't say she'll stop trying to activate the Eluvian, and involves Hawke when she goes to acquire the Arulin'Holm years prior, it's clearly not supposed to be a secret that she wants to activate the Eluvian she built.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 3, 2017 9:51:09 GMT
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to ask this, but how can you get Merrill killed in DA2? I would like her to be dead in my canon worldstate, but for some reason, even though my Hawke always treats her callously and sides with the templars, she still stays with Hawke. What do I have to do to get her to oppose Hawke? I tried to not talk to her after killing her clan, but she still sided with me. If anybody knows the solution I would appreciate it.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 12:06:31 GMT
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to ask this, but how can you get Merrill killed in DA2? I would like her to be dead in my canon worldstate, but for some reason, even though my Hawke always treats her callously and sides with the templars, she still stays with Hawke. What do I have to do to get her to oppose Hawke? I tried to not talk to her after killing her clan, but she still sided with me. If anybody knows the solution I would appreciate it. You have too much rivalty/friendship with her. You need more neutral, this means, you don't care about her. If you don't care about her, she will leave Hawke for the mages. Just as Fenris for the templars. (I dont know, how much percent need to achieve it, but Fenris <80%, if I remember correctly, probably Merrill is similar.)
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 3, 2017 12:13:07 GMT
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to ask this, but how can you get Merrill killed in DA2? I would like her to be dead in my canon worldstate, but for some reason, even though my Hawke always treats her callously and sides with the templars, she still stays with Hawke. What do I have to do to get her to oppose Hawke? I tried to not talk to her after killing her clan, but she still sided with me. If anybody knows the solution I would appreciate it. Strictly due to game mechanics, you'll need to have Anders in full rivalry with you for Merrill to defect. If Anders is in complete Rivalry with your Hawke (so that he can be persuaded to side with you) and Merrill's "Friend or Foe?" quest was not completed, then she will go to protect the Circle from Hawke. You also need to avoid choosing the option to join Hawke during the confrontation with her because Hawke's Jedi mind trick will go into action. If I recall correctly, you can kill Anders and Merrill in the same run, but Anders needs to be in a position where he can potentially side with you in full rivalry in order for the game mechanics to allow Merrill to defect.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 12:26:20 GMT
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to ask this, but how can you get Merrill killed in DA2? I would like her to be dead in my canon worldstate, but for some reason, even though my Hawke always treats her callously and sides with the templars, she still stays with Hawke. What do I have to do to get her to oppose Hawke? I tried to not talk to her after killing her clan, but she still sided with me. If anybody knows the solution I would appreciate it. Strictly due to game mechanics, you'll need to have Anders in full rivalry with you for Merrill to defect. If Anders is in complete Rivalry with your Hawke (so that he can be persuaded to side with you) and Merrill's "Friend or Foe?" quest was not completed, then she will go to protect the Circle from Hawke. You also need to avoid choosing the option to join Hawke during the confrontation with her because Hawke's Jedi mind trick will go into action. If I recall correctly, you can kill Anders and Merrill in the same run, but Anders needs to be in a position where he can potentially side with you in full rivalry in order for the game mechanics to allow Merrill to defect. Anders' case completely different than Merrill's, and than any others, but yes, he able to turn against mages for Hawke only if Hawke totally crushed him. Merrill's case rather similar than Fenris'. (But probably I wrong: I had only one templar end, but was 100% freiendship with her, then she stayed with Hawke. This was only the end, explained with defend Carver, I never did a full Templar run.)
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 3, 2017 12:30:53 GMT
Strictly due to game mechanics, you'll need to have Anders in full rivalry with you for Merrill to defect. If Anders is in complete Rivalry with your Hawke (so that he can be persuaded to side with you) and Merrill's "Friend or Foe?" quest was not completed, then she will go to protect the Circle from Hawke. You also need to avoid choosing the option to join Hawke during the confrontation with her because Hawke's Jedi mind trick will go into action. If I recall correctly, you can kill Anders and Merrill in the same run, but Anders needs to be in a position where he can potentially side with you in full rivalry in order for the game mechanics to allow Merrill to defect. Anders' case completely different than Merrill's, and than any others, but yes, he able to turn against mages for Hawke only if Hawke totally crushed him. Merrill's case rather similar than Fenris'. (But probably I wrong: I had only one templar end, but was 100% freiendship with her, then she stayed with Hawke. This was only the end, explained with defend Carver, I never did a full Templar run.) I think the Anders factor has to do with the game trying to give you the option to, at the very least, keep one mage in your party.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 12:42:14 GMT
Anders' case completely different than Merrill's, and than any others, but yes, he able to turn against mages for Hawke only if Hawke totally crushed him. Merrill's case rather similar than Fenris'. (But probably I wrong: I had only one templar end, but was 100% freiendship with her, then she stayed with Hawke. This was only the end, explained with defend Carver, I never did a full Templar run.) I think the Anders factor has to do with the game trying to give you the option to, at the very least, keep one mage in your party. I don't understand that, you think, Anders' decision is game mechanic? Or? (I'm weak in English, sorry.)
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 3, 2017 12:46:45 GMT
I think the Anders factor has to do with the game trying to give you the option to, at the very least, keep one mage in your party. I don't understand that, you think, Anders' decision is game mechanic? Or? (I'm weak in English, sorry.) Don't worry about it; there's nothing to be sorry about. I meant Merrill's defection is tied to Anders' rivalry status. I said game mechanic in terms of the game prohibiting her from leaving unless that requirement with Anders is met.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 12:54:18 GMT
I don't understand that, you think, Anders' decision is game mechanic? Or? (I'm weak in English, sorry.) Don't worry about it; there's nothing to be sorry about. I meant Merrill's defection is tied to Anders' rivalry status. I said game mechanic in terms of the game prohibiting her from leaving unless that requirement with Anders is met. You means, Merrill's not same as Fenris, but bound to Anders' state: Merrill join to mages against Hawke only, if Anders stay with Hawke at Templar side? This sounds not so good for me. More logical, if Merrill leave Hawke if don't have enough approval, no matter what Anders done. UPDATE:
Yes, I see. You're right. I had a saved game, where Merrill on minimal friendship, and she was able to support Templars, if Anders left/died. So probably the opposite position also true: if Anders able to follow Hawke to support themplars, Merrill will support Mages. (This depend on Merrill's approval? I don't have rival Anders...)
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Post by Sifr on Feb 3, 2017 18:40:42 GMT
Must I engage in this tired old diatribe again? Nyssa doesn't work on Merrill's doorstep, even if you ignore the ludonarrative dissonance (as Kirkwall clearly isn't to scale), and if Merrill was the insular hermit you suggest, then she shouldn't know Nyssa at all. She shouldn't even know Philomena's name because she shouldn't know anyone in the alienage who would be able to tell her that person's name. That's the obvious issue with your exaggeration. For someone who thinks that simply trying to gain money is "obsessive", are you qualified to accuse people of exaggerating? We're shown that Merrrill becomes increasingly more insular across the span of the game, as her unhealthy fixation with the mirror grows, so her seclusion wasn't always so. We also know that even when she does become a hermit, she still ventures out (rarely) for food. Merrill is not unaware of her neighbour's existence, even if she rarely ever speaks to them. You can know the name of the person living next to you, without actually knowing a single thing about them. We're told by Nyssa that about ten years ago, the Templars discovered Huon was an apostate, came marching into the Alienage and dragged him away in chains. Since this happened only a few years before Merrill began living there and the event was still fresh in everyone's memory, it's not surprising that Merrill may have overheard this story at some point. As an apostate and blood mage, she'd need to take extra care not to be caught like Huon was. None of which has any relevancy whatsoever to the point being discussed, which was that Merrill only began shifting her attention to trying to help other Elves after she can decide to abandon her attempts to restore the Eluvian. Aside from Merrill admitting that she's been a stranger and barely looked at them. Knowing a few names does not denote any familiarity. Even if you picked the outcome where Merrill does consider trying to finish the Eluvian, we can assume that ultimately she never did. The mirror was probably left behind after they all had to flee the city and afterwards, the Mage-Templar fighting shifted her focus towards helping the Elves. Based on an erroneous assumption that knowing two people's names makes you familiar with everyone. You're ignoring that the game makes clear that most of the Fereldan refugees never left Kirkwall even after the Blight ended, lacking neither the money or any home to return to. Throughout all three acts we see many refugees that dwell within Darktown and Lowtown, as well as being depicted working on the Docks and in the Bone Pit. So Kirkwall and the rest of the Free Marches still retains a sizeable Fereldan population even after the Blight. Only if you're someone who refuses to learn what "obsessive" means, despite the many times it has been explained to you. Since this label does not apply to Hawke, your argument is hereby dismissed. The game presents the Deep Roads Expedition as the best means of Hawke escaping poverty, one they were already desperate enough to be willing to join as a guard before Varric made the more tempting offer of becoming a partner with an actual share in what they recovered. The game takes the time to explain how it's now (relatively) safer to enter the Deep Roads, explaining that the circumstances are just right to barely have to worry about encountering any darkspawn and that if they want to take advantage of this brief window of opportunity, they need to leave as soon as possible. If you don't like the scenario Bioware wrote, because it doesn't fit with your idea to escape to the country, you can always complain to them. Since that doesn't happen in the game and is never presented as an option, then there's no point talking about it. No-one is arguing with you that the Darkspawn aren't dangerous. We're trying to explain to you that the lack of Darkspawn makes this the perfect time for them to enter the Deep Roads without running afoul of them, since there is not many of them currently down there to come into contact with. The game explains this several times, so why do you not fathom it? Hawke was accepted as an equal partner due to providing coin, muscle and having brought the Warden Maps of that region, that Bartrand needed to give them a better entrance. The Warden maps likewise would help to allow them to bypass any problems they found (whether it be cave-ins or small numbers of Darkspawn), making them an invaluable resource. But demonstrates how relatively little 50 Sovereigns is in terms of the game, not the abundant wealth you seem to believe it is. Which only goes to show you've fundamentally missed the entire point of Merrill's story, which was a cautionary tale about not letting one's own curiosity and fixation with something, no matter how well-intentioned, blind you to the dangers that it may present. Merrill ignored Marethari's warnings not to venture into the Elven ruins again. Even knowing that the Eluvian had caused Tamlen and Mahariel to contract the Blight, she let her curiosity get the better of her and retrieved a shard from the mirror. Merrill ignored Marethari's warning not to venture into the cave containing Audacity. Even knowing that he was bound, she risked speaking to a demon in order to find a way to cleanse the shard, even if required learning blood magic. Merrill refused to listen to anyone who warned her of the danger she was placing herself in, because she believed that she knew better and was determined to prove that everyone around her was wrong. Marethari as the clan's Keeper made a judgement call that the Eluvian was dangerous, having already cost the lives of one or more people. She warned no-one to come in contact with the mirror or enter those ruins again... only for Merrill to deliberately disobey her. Marethari was just as curious about the Eluvian, but the danger meant she didn't feel it was safe to pursue that knowledge. As her First, she expected Merrill to understand that she must put the clan's interest and safety above all else, even when it meant pursuing a piece of lost Elven history. Merrill put them all at risk by recovering the tainted shard and consorting with Audacity, which risked her either being corrupted or possessed by a demon. Merrill's own curiosity was more important to her than the rest of Clan Sabrae. Once more, no-one was ever disputing her rebuilding the Eluvian! You don't need to keep harping on about a point that no-one was arguing in the first place! You seemed to take exception when I used the phrase "fixing the mirror", despite the game using this and "restore the Eluvian" interchangeably, something which I once again must repeat. I don't understand why you're taking such umbrage with a point that no-one was debating or cares about? Also I never said she recovered the frame from the Elven ruins. I said that she placed it "in a new frame", which should make it obvious that it's not the same one as before? If you had paid attention, you might have noticed this. Aside from being mistaken about the number of shards, nothing else I said was incorrect. Besides, you can't exactly claim to have been free from error yourself. This pointless Eluvian debate was sparked by your failure to understand that "fixing the mirror" and "restoring the Eluvian" equate to the exact same thing... which I still don't fully understand why you insist on arguing about? I'm not sure how you could equate the two; "Night Terrors" involves a demon, a creature that has been demonstrated in all the games to be able to get into people's heads and influence their behaviour by playing to what they want. In Merrill's case, it uses her own pride, ego and desire to restore the People as a means to convince he to betray Hawke. Whereas Cullen handwaving Anders threat aside or calling him out on being a mage, falls into the same territory as Hawke throwing a fireballs or walking around in a staff and robes, yet somehow never causing any red flags to the Templars that they were a mage. The example from "Night Terrors" involves lore that is consistently applied with demons, that they will try to tempt or trick mortals at every opportunity. The latter example are cases of gameplay/story segregation, which eschews or ignores certain logical hiccups for the sake of player convenience. Saying that we cannot trust one because of the other, makes very little sense. It'd be like arguing that the knife to Marethari's gut can't have killed her, because our protagonists can survive being peppered with arrows and set on fire. Putting in the effort to earn money demonstrates a strong work ethic, not an obsession. So you're wrong here. That's not obsessive behaviour and cannot even be argued to qualify as such. This has been explained to you repeatedly. I don't see how you can accuse "people like me" of trying to vilify Merrill, by simply pointing out that her behaviour is unhealthy by the game's very own admission? The game repeatedly shows her neglecting both herself and those around her, which are signs of obsessive behaviour. Merrill does not know what the Eluvian does and so it's ludicrous to suggest that she somehow intuitively knows that it could help the People. At most she claims that she wants to restore it because it's a part of their heritage and it's something that could teach them much about their past. That's only knowledge she's trying to discover, not actually something that will have a meaningful impact on their lives and change the situation of the Elves in Thedas. And in truth, while she does want to learn more about their history, the game makes it clear that fixing the Eluvian is far more about her trying to prove something to the Keeper and her clan for doubting her, as well as give what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel meaning. Her pursuit of the Eluvian has cost her so much and so many sacrifices, she refuse to give up because doing so would be an admission to her clan and the Keeper that she failed. It would make it all worth nothing and that is not a thought that Merrill wants to entertain. So no, I'm not vilifying Merrill, I'm pointing out that her behaviour is obsessive and unhealthy. Her motivations may be good and her intentions pure, but we all know what the road to hell is paved with... In comparison, Hawke's actions in no way demonstrate any obsessive or unhealthy traits whatsoever. Hawke looks at the expedition as merely a job with some considerable risk involved, but one that they have no choice but to undertake to escape poverty. So I'd say that your position is far more hypocritical, given that you're glossing over all the many faults that Merrill is presented with and all the while, making the bizarre claim Hawke suffers from the same myopic and obsessive tendencies, despite that claim being contrary to all evidence. Merrill is the chick with the tattoos, not the one with the blood smear on their face. I think you may have confused the two? It's not obsessive and Merrill is fixing a mirror. I feel like I'm repeating myself, I feel like I'm repeating myself, I feel like I'm repeating myself...Yes it is, even if it's only a white lie. Both Merrill and Hawke know perfectly well that she's going back to work on the mirror, something that happens regularly enough that it's mentioned in both the codex and Hawke remarking on her sneaking back to her old place. If this was perfectly normal and healthy behaviour, why does she lie about it? Merrill is shown neglecting her friends, her own health, concealing her activities from her loved ones, making up clear excuses to cover up what she's been doing, showing both anger and irritation when found out or confronted on it... if you don't see the parallels between Merrill and people with substance abuse problems, you really haven't been paying attention. But nonetheless, Merrill continues to lie and be evasive about it, even though Hawke clearly already knows what's going on?
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2017 18:56:52 GMT
Anders' case completely different than Merrill's, and than any others, but yes, he able to turn against mages for Hawke only if Hawke totally crushed him. Merrill's case rather similar than Fenris'. (But probably I wrong: I had only one templar end, but was 100% freiendship with her, then she stayed with Hawke. This was only the end, explained with defend Carver, I never did a full Templar run.) I think the Anders factor has to do with the game trying to give you the option to, at the very least, keep one mage in your party. Which annoyed me to no end . I feel party composition should always be up to the player, be it balanced, 50/50, or all one class. Even if the player ends up making a boss encounter 10 times harder than it needs to be, a good RPG allows them the freedom to make good, evil, silly, and downright stupid choices . Same with Bethany and Carver, their survival should have been a combination of their (who wants to be in front versus close to Leandra) and Hawke's choices, instead of some arbitrary balance rule. Forced balanced that wouldn't even have been needed if Bioware had kept Origins' class versatility .
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 18:59:52 GMT
Hey everyone, what's going on in... *sees a discussion about how to kill Merrill*
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 19:10:05 GMT
Hey everyone, what's going on in... *sees a discussion about how to kill Merrill* No! No one wants to kill Merril. (At least not me.)
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 19:40:21 GMT
I think the Anders factor has to do with the game trying to give you the option to, at the very least, keep one mage in your party. Which annoyed me to no end . I feel party composition should always be up to the player, be it balanced, 50/50, or all one class. Even if the player ends up making a boss encounter 10 times harder than it needs to be, a good RPG allows them the freedom to make good, evil, silly, and downright stupid choices . Same with Bethany and Carver, their survival should have been a combination of their (who wants to be in front versus close to Leandra) and Hawke's choices, instead of some arbitrary balance rule. Forced balanced that wouldn't even have been needed if Bioware had kept Origins' class versatility . I agree, that Merrill's decision depend on Anders' fate because of game mechanics. Seems that she really don't care about the mages, as she said to Anders before, but I think this not really true, because she is determined, when Anders follow Hawke against the mages... this is just wrong. I found this (yes, Anders appear behind of Hawke, this is disappointing...):
Bethany and Carver I think not for game mechanics, rather for more drama. Because you wants to play a templar-heart warrior, you must to face Bethany. With Carver would be easy. You wants to play a (pro-)mage, you possibly need to face with Templar-Carver. This is, why they forced the the opposite sibling, not for the game mechanical balance.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2017 20:19:17 GMT
Which annoyed me to no end . I feel party composition should always be up to the player, be it balanced, 50/50, or all one class. Even if the player ends up making a boss encounter 10 times harder than it needs to be, a good RPG allows them the freedom to make good, evil, silly, and downright stupid choices . Same with Bethany and Carver, their survival should have been a combination of their (who wants to be in front versus close to Leandra) and Hawke's choices, instead of some arbitrary balance rule. Forced balanced that wouldn't even have been needed if Bioware had kept Origins' class versatility . I agree, that Merrill's decision depend on Anders' fate because of game mechanics. Seems that she really don't care about the mages, as she said to Anders before, but I think this not really true, because she is determined, when Anders follow Hawke against the mages... this is just wrong. I found this (yes, Anders appear behind of Hawke, this is disappointing...):
Bethany and Carver I think not for game mechanics, rather for more drama. Because you wants to play a templar-heart warrior, you must to face Bethany. With Carver would be easy. You wants to play a (pro-)mage, you possibly need to face with Templar-Carver. This is, why they forced the the opposite sibling, not for the game mechanical balance. Not really, since you can side with them, or they can die or become Wardens, blunting much of the Mage/Templar drama. True, the forced balance is only in the Prologue and Act 1, but it's still there. Carver is there to give the party a two handed damage warrior, since Fenris is entirely optional, not to mention easy to miss. Merrill cannot heal* and Anders can rub some players the wrong way**, so Bethany provides a nice alternative. If it was only drama the writers were going for, Bethany could still resent Mage Hawke for having freedoms she doesn't, while Carver... would still be Carver .
*Another casualty of Bioware "streamlining" the classes and character specializations; it makes zero sense for a First of Merrill's age and skill to not know basic healing spells, even if Dalish Pariah (her Blood Mage/Keeper hybrid spec) is her main skill set.
**A player can support Mage freedom and still thinks Anders whines too much. Maybe they don't like Abominations (roleplay reason) or they don't like what merging did to his and Justice's personalities (meta game reason). Maybe they wanted to kick him for how he treats other Companions, particularly Merrill during Mirror Image. Or maybe they want to hear all possible party banter, and being forced to have the same character as healer every time stretches that out .
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 20:32:06 GMT
I agree, that Merrill's decision depend on Anders' fate because of game mechanics. Seems that she really don't care about the mages, as she said to Anders before, but I think this not really true, because she is determined, when Anders follow Hawke against the mages... this is just wrong. I found this (yes, Anders appear behind of Hawke, this is disappointing...):
Bethany and Carver I think not for game mechanics, rather for more drama. Because you wants to play a templar-heart warrior, you must to face Bethany. With Carver would be easy. You wants to play a (pro-)mage, you possibly need to face with Templar-Carver. This is, why they forced the the opposite sibling, not for the game mechanical balance. Not really, since you can side with them, or they can die or become Wardens, blunting much of the Mage/Templar drama. True, the forced balance is only in the Prologue and Act 1, but it's still there. Carver is there to give the party a two handed damage warrior, since Fenris is entirely optional, not to mention easy to miss. Merrill cannot heal* and Anders can rub some players the wrong way**, so Bethany provides a nice alternative. If it was only drama the writers were going for, Bethany could still resent Mage Hawke for having freedoms she doesn't, while Carver... would still be Carver . *Another casualty of Bioware "streamlining" the classes and character specializations; it makes zero sense for a First of Merrill's age and skill to not know basic healing spells, even if Dalish Pariah (her Blood Mage/Keeper hybrid spec) is her main skill set.
**A player can support Mage freedom and still thinks Anders whines too much. Maybe they don't like Abominations (roleplay reason) or they don't like what merging did to his and Justice's personalities (meta game reason). Maybe they wanted to kick him for how he treats other Companions, particularly Merrill during Mirror Image. Or maybe they want to hear all possible party banter, and being forced to have the same character as healer every time stretches that out .
Bethany and Carver will disappear after Act1. So, their spec no matter. You got a warrior instantly (Aveline), so: Carver's meaningless. You got a mage also quickly, so Bethany also not so important. I see a lot more sense, that is for the more drama. Just as Anders and Fenris rivalry etc. Just see the scene after the Legacy. This scene clearly about two opposite sibling.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 3, 2017 21:42:59 GMT
Hey everyone, what's going on in... *sees a discussion about how to kill Merrill* No! No one wants to kill Merril. (At least not me.) Heh, I do. Actually Merrill is my favorite, but my Hawke just happens to be ruthless mage-killer. Makes no sense for him to fight side by side with a known maleficar while attempting to kill every other mage in the city. Thanks everyone for suggestions, I'll see if it works out this time.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 21:48:22 GMT
No! No one wants to kill Merril. (At least not me.) Heh, I do. Actually Merrill is my favorite, but my Hawke just happens to be ruthless mage-killer. Makes no sense for him to fight side by side with a known maleficar while attempting to kill every other mage in the city. Thanks everyone for suggestions, I'll see if it works out this time. I already gave advice how to kill Anders as well, so... you're welcome. The point: Anders must survive, and follow Hawke to support Templars... THIS is really cruel.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 4, 2017 0:03:54 GMT
Nyssa doesn't work on Merrill's doorstep, even if you ignore the ludonarrative dissonance (as Kirkwall clearly isn't to scale), and if Merrill was the insular hermit you suggest, then she shouldn't know Nyssa at all. She shouldn't even know Philomena's name because she shouldn't know anyone in the alienage who would be able to tell her that person's name. That's the obvious issue with your exaggeration. For someone who thinks that simply trying to gain money is "obsessive", are you qualified to accuse people of exaggerating? You are ignoring the context of that scenario. An entire expedition of people, along with two companions, whose lives are at risk every second they spend in the Deep Roads. The entire expedition could have died. Had Merrill gone, she also could have perished. People die in the Deep Roads all the time, including Grey Wardens. We're shown that Merrrill becomes increasingly more insular across the span of the game, as her unhealthy fixation with the mirror grows, so her seclusion wasn't always so. We also know that even when she does become a hermit, she still ventures out (rarely) for food. Merrill is not unaware of her neighbour's existence, even if she rarely ever speaks to them. You can know the name of the person living next to you, without actually knowing a single thing about them. I don't agree. We're shown a scene where Varric approaches Merrill because she's trying to figure out a way to activate the Eluvian, but that's not the same as being more insular, and I don't see her pursuit of the Eluvian as unhealthy. Merrill's focus is on having a functional Eluvian so she can use it to help the People. We're told by Nyssa that about ten years ago, the Templars discovered Huon was an apostate, came marching into the Alienage and dragged him away in chains. Since this happened only a few years before Merrill began living there and the event was still fresh in everyone's memory, it's not surprising that Merrill may have overheard this story at some point. As an apostate and blood mage, she'd need to take extra care not to be caught like Huon was. Merrill says that she knows how to be careful because she's Dalish. If you recall, the Dalish have a long history with the Chantry and the templars. You mean three years later, of which an indeterminate portion was spent on the run if Hawke protected the mages from Meredith, and presumably that's also the case if he or she became Viscount given that Cassandra had to seek out Varric to get an answer about Hawke (since there's still a disappearance involved even when fulfilling the Right of Annulment as Hawke brings up the Red Templars taking over, forcing them to vacate the role of Viscount). None of which has any relevancy whatsoever to the point being discussed, which was that Merrill only began shifting her attention to trying to help other Elves after she can decide to abandon her attempts to restore the Eluvian. Merrill's entire story arc is about her trying to help the Elvhen. What we hear in Inquisition is simply a continuation of Merrill's original story of her trying to help her people. Aside from the fact that she's already interacting with her neighbors, Merrill's dialogue in that scene can vary, meaning she may not give up on making the Eluvian she constructed operational. Aside from Merrill admitting that she's been a stranger and barely looked at them. Knowing a few names does not denote any familiarity. Which is like citing Sebastian's dialogue (when approaching Clan Sabrae) about thinking the Dalish should be converted to the Andrastian faith and ignoring his dialogue with Merrill where he seems to have no problem with the Dalish following another faith. If your point was that there's inconsistent dialogue in Dragon Age II, that's not a surprise. There's even inconsistent information in inquisition, particularly when it comes to Cullen and Kirkwall. Even if you picked the outcome where Merrill does consider trying to finish the Eluvian, we can assume that ultimately she never did. The mirror was probably left behind after they all had to flee the city and afterwards, the Mage-Templar fighting shifted her focus towards helping the Elves. You can assume pretty much anything, but that doesn't mean that's what happened. If I'm pointing to Merrill's actual dialogue in being familiar with denizens of the alienage, that's clearly not an example of using headcanon. Based on an erroneous assumption that knowing two people's names makes you familiar with everyone. I never said Merrill was familiar with everyone, but if she's clearly familiar with people in the alienage, then she's not the insular hermit you're trying to make her out to be. Given the serious dangers posed by the darkspawn (who conquered the dwarven kingdoms that ran the span of Thedas), I don't see how you can act as if the darkspawn aren't a threat. Even physical contact with the Messenger (in Awakening) gave people the blight. No-one is arguing with you that the Darkspawn aren't dangerous. We're trying to explain to you that the lack of Darkspawn makes this the perfect time for them to enter the Deep Roads without running afoul of them, since there is not many of them currently down there to come into contact with. The game explains this several times, so why do you not fathom it? Well, you are providing your opinion on the matter. However, the expedition does run into darkspawn, and had Sandal not been gifted he could have been a casualty; Carver or Bethany can also end up casualties of the blight. No, it wasn't about curiosity, it was about Merrill putting the time and effort to do the research, and focusing on constructing an Eluvian because she believed the technology could benefit the People. Which only goes to show you've fundamentally missed the entire point of Merrill's story, which was a cautionary tale about not letting one's own curiosity and fixation with something, no matter how well-intentioned, blind you to the dangers that it may present. You seem to have forgotten that Marethari was the one who let Audacity loose, not Merrill. Maybe you should try and remember what actually happened in the story before you chastise anyone about it. Merrill ignored Marethari's warnings not to venture into the Elven ruins again. Even knowing that the Eluvian had caused Tamlen and Mahariel to contract the Blight, she let her curiosity get the better of her and retrieved a shard from the mirror. No, Merrill ventured into the Elven Ruins because the Keeper sanctioned an expedition to find out what happened to Tamlen, which seems to happen with or without Mahariel. Did you even play the Dalish Origin? Merrill ignored Marethari's warning not to venture into the cave containing Audacity. Even knowing that he was bound, she risked speaking to a demon in order to find a way to cleanse the shard, even if required learning blood magic. No, Marethari and Merrill both encounter Audacity at the same time in the short story. They also realize that the ancient spirit is sundered from the Beyond and trapped in a totem. There's no risk in communicating with a spirit who is trapped in the real world and separated from the Beyond. Merrill refused to listen to anyone who warned her of the danger she was placing herself in, because she believed that she knew better and was determined to prove that everyone around her was wrong. People who are completely ignorant about elven culture, the Eluvians, and the plight of the People told Merrill that she was wrong from a place of complete ignorance. That's very different than your suggestion that they knew better, which they clearly didn't. Marethari gives no indication that she's done any research into the Eluvian, and even her dialogue references that she simply thinks the Eluvians should stay buried. Marethari's arguments against this course of action don't even make any sense in Acts I, II, or III. In fact, Marethari is the one who releases Audacity, and then tries to kill Merrill as an abomination in the name of protecting her (which is completely asinine). Marethari as the clan's Keeper made a judgement call that the Eluvian was dangerous, having already cost the lives of one or more people. She warned no-one to come in contact with the mirror or enter those ruins again... only for Merrill to deliberately disobey her. And Marethari is completely wrong in Acts I, II, and especially III, which you omitted from your statement. Marethari was just as curious about the Eluvian, but the danger meant she didn't feel it was safe to pursue that knowledge. As her First, she expected Merrill to understand that she must put the clan's interest and safety above all else, even when it meant pursuing a piece of lost Elven history. And, as Briala's story shows, Merrill was correct about how useful the Eluvians could be to the elves, since Briala uses them for the benefit of the Orlesian elves and to give them, in her own words, "a real future". Merrill put them all at risk by recovering the tainted shard and consorting with Audacity, which risked her either being corrupted or possessed by a demon. Merrill's own curiosity was more important to her than the rest of Clan Sabrae. No, Merrill's interest in using the Eluvian to help the People was more important to her than Marethari's opposition to her goal, which is why she left Clan Sabrae to continue pursuing it. Besides, you can't exactly claim to have been free from error yourself. This pointless Eluvian debate was sparked by your failure to understand that "fixing the mirror" and "restoring the Eluvian" equate to the exact same thing... which I still don't fully understand why you insist on arguing about? Given that Merrill is building a new Eluvian, and not fixing one, I don't see how you're saying that they're the same thing. They're not. Again, people like you seem to put Merrill in a very unfavorable position for trying to utilize revolutionary technology that could irrevocably change the lives of the People in Thedas, but you're more than willing to minimize Hawke's role in an expedition that puts everyone in a dangerous place where they could all potentially perish at the hands of darkspawn for the sake of a fabled treasure. You've also made it clear you think Hawke's actions are excusable because he's doing this to help his family, while you make no such consideration for Merrill trying to help the Elvhen. I continue to find your position to be incredibly hypocritical. I don't see how you can accuse "people like me" of trying to vilify Merrill, by simply pointing out that her behaviour is unhealthy by the game's very own admission? The game repeatedly shows her neglecting both herself and those around her, which are signs of obsessive behaviour. You mean because Varric had a scene with Merrill where he felt she should take a break from trying to activate the Eluvian. And I don't see Merrill repeatedly ignore everyone around her. That's something of an absurd exaggeration. Merrill does not know what the Eluvian does and so it's ludicrous to suggest that she somehow intuitively knows that it could help the People. Again, you don't know what Merrill read from the lore she studied. You're making definitive statements about something you don't actually know. So I'd say that your position is far more hypocritical, given that you're glossing over all the many faults that Merrill is presented with and all the while, making the bizarre claim Hawke suffers from the same myopic and obsessive tendencies, despite that claim being contrary to all evidence. I don't see trying to bring an end to the plight faced by an entire race of people as a bad thing, which is Merrill's goal. I don't see Merrill putting time and effort into using the Eluvian to help the People as a bad thing, either. Also, I simply refuse to ignore that the expedition puts people in danger. So far, all you've done is ignore the threat posed by the darkspawn, mitigate the danger due to the number of darkspawn present, and point to how the treasure can benefit Hawke's family. Which is why I find it so odd that Merrill's goal to help an entire race of people seems to be something you view so negatively. Telling Hawke that she's going to her home in the alienage because she's left things undone isn't a lie, though. Yes it is, even if it's only a white lie. Considering Merrill doesn't lie to Hawke in that scene, I don't see how it is. Merrill is shown neglecting her friends, her own health, concealing her activities from her loved ones, making up clear excuses to cover up what she's been doing, showing both anger and irritation when found out or confronted on it... if you don't see the parallels between Merrill and people with substance abuse problems, you really haven't been paying attention. Merrill isn't shown neglecting her friends, she openly admits she's heading to the alienage when asked, she doesn't make up an excuse, you're misconstruing the scene with Varric where they disagree, and the substance abuse analogy is also complete bullshit.
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Champion of Kirkwall
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Sifr
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
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sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Feb 4, 2017 20:01:06 GMT
You are ignoring the context of that scenario. An entire expedition of people, along with two companions, whose lives are at risk every second they spend in the Deep Roads. The entire expedition could have died. Had Merrill gone, she also could have perished. People die in the Deep Roads all the time, including Grey Wardens. And you're ignoring the actual events of the game, where no-one in the expedition can end up dying whatsoever. Until they ran into the blocked path and were forced to detour, Varric states they didn't run into any serious problems. Varric and Hawke scouted another route and cleared the way for the others, thus further minimising the danger for the rest of the expedition. Once Bartrand locked them in the Thaig, it seems that the others (such as Bodahn and Sandal) managed to return back to the surface with no problems. People die in the Deep Roads all the time because there are Darkspawn down there... and there wasn't many of them down there during that period of time. Thus you're over-exaggerating the danger to ridiculous levels, because the game doesn't paint the expedition as dropping like flies, but being perfectly fine. The codex and Varric tell us that she's stopped leaving the house. The game repeatedly shows and has characters voice that her obsession with the Eluvian is unhealthy. The game never has Merrill explain how she thinks it could help, save for bringing back a lost piece of their history. So whether you agree or have a different opinion doesn't matter, because the game itself says otherwise. Which misses the obvious fact that the primary way the Dalish avoid the Chantry and Templars is by never staying in the same place for too long and avoiding human settlements entirely. Y'know, the things that Merrill cannot do since she's now living in the middle of Kirkwall. If you send Fenyriel to the Dalish, we see in Act 2 that the Templars have been harassing them. Likewise, Merrill repeatedly voices her concern for her clan by mentioning that the Dalish should have moved on years ago. Merrill's primary means of hiding is to try to blend in among the Elves of the Alienage. Given that the Templars still managed to collar Huon, then that's no guarantee that she wouldn't be caught, even if she was careful. No, Merrill's entire story is about her obsession with the Eluvian. Even claiming that it could help the People is a flimsy justification for her actions, because there's no way that she could know the Eluvian would have any meaningful impact on the lives of the Elven people. Restoring the Eluvian is analogous to say, rediscovering the Tomb of Tutankhamun. Something that does provide a lot of insight into a lot bit of history from Ancient Egypt, but otherwise has no real tangible effect on modern day life. Not sure what you're rabbiting on about inconsistent dialogue for... since it neither answers nor addresses anything which was being discussed. The point - since you've clearly missed it - was that the game, codex and World of Thedas all make comment on her reclusive nature and that she's a veritable stranger among her neighbours. So it's pretty much canon that Merrill was not familiar with that many people in the Alienage. You can assert that Hawke is obsessive and Merrill is the Elven Mother friggin' Theresa, but that doesn't make it true either. I was merely offering a hypothesis for what may have happened in the interim period, between the characters fleeing the city and what we're told they were doing in Inquisition, based on the evidence at hand and how that ties into their resolution of their storylines at the end of Act 3 Except that the companion books, codex entries, game's events and dialogue all provided a plethora of canonical evidence that points to Merrill being very much a reclusive hermit by the start of Act 3. The codex explicitly states that she's become "increasing insular" over the years, so she wasn't always. Thus accounting for why she may be familiar with a few people in the Alienage, although she admits she still doesn't know them all that well. No, this is not my own opinions on the matter, I'm providing you actual evidence and facts in the game. After a Blight, there are less Darkspawn in the Deep Roads for anyone to run into, this is an indisputable fact. The expedition only runs into a small amount of Darkspawn when forced to make a detour. Hawke and Varric clear most of them out, allowing the rest of the expedition to proceed safely. The Deep Roads is not the swarming radioactive ants nest that you keep trying to make it out to be, at least during this brief window of time. Considering that Marethari's actions have zero bearing on Merrill's obsessive fixation on the Eluvian and her increasingly insular nature over the several years preceding the release of Audacity... the reason why I didn't mention it is because it has nothing to do with it. Marethari's screw up does not excuse or even provide any kind of rebuttal, to the many cited instances where Merrill actively refused to everyone around her who was telling her not to do something, because she believed she knew better. Did you not even bother to read what I'd written? I clearly wrote that Merrill was told "not to venture into the Elven ruins again". The Dalish Origin is suggested to have happened regardless of Duncan's involvement. Merrill, Mahariel and (perhaps) Fenarel were sent to look for signs of Tamlen in the Elven Ruins, where at some point the Eluvian got smashed. Following this, Mahariel ended up succumbing to the corruption (without Duncan to recruit him), which was what convinced Marethari that both the cave and mirror were dangerous. Merrill was explicitly forbidden from going back there, for fear that the mirror would lead to more corruption or attract Darkspawn. I already stated previously that Merrill and Marethari found Audacity together in the short story, leading to Marethari warning Merrill not to venture back into this cave. It doesn't matter that Audacity was bound in the real world, it was still dangerous to communicate with it because we know it was perfectly capable of possessing people. Audacity is not the only time we've seen this either, as both Kitty and Imshael attempted to possess unwary people despite being in binding circles. What you're saying doesn't even agree with Merrill herself, who knew perfectly well the danger and accepted the risk in speaking with Audacity ;
"Anders, there is no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All Spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."So Marethari and all of Clan Sabrae, were completely ignorant of Elven culture, Eluvians and didn't know the plight of the People? Which as I said before, has nothing to do with or justifies Merrill's actions in any way. Just because Marethari screwed up when it came to allowing Audacity to posess her, does not mean she was wrong to have warned Merrill not to go go back into the Elven ruins, not to fixate on the mirror, not to go into the cave containing Audacity, not to use blood magic and not to try to restore the mirror. You're saying that it was fine for Merrill to play with fire, because the woman telling her not to, accidentally ended up burning herself. Once more, Merrill was not operating with any of the information or knowledge that Briala had about the Eluvians. Thus we cannot use that as proof that Merrill was right about the Eluvians being important, because there was zero way she could have known that to actually be the case. We know that Merrill was right in hindsight, but being accidentally correct about something does not make unfounded beliefs valid. Anymore than saying that someone who always suspects their partner is cheating on them, actually was "right" to have behaved so jealously, should it turn out their partner does end up having an affair. Which is complete nonsense. The game makes it perfectly clear that Merrill left because the clan did not like her obsession with the mirror and her use of blood magic, which made them no longer trust her. Furthermore, leaving preventing her having any more arguments with Marethari, who kept telling her to put her fixation aside. Merrill didn't do it to help the People, she did it because she wanted to satisfy her own pride. The game uses all these terms interchangeably. So yes, they equate to the same thing. Stop quibbling over pointless semantics, it doesn't matter. Can we kindly stop this debate from getting even more derailed than you already have forced it to become? The game clearly presents in that scene that Varric is concerned enough about Merrill's behaviour that he feels he has to try to intervene and coax her out of the house. Which further ties into how Varric has been taking steps to make sure she's still eating (if not romanced), which was clearly stated in the codex. Argue with the game if you want, that doesn't change that the evidence shows that Merrill is ignoring those around her to work on the mirror. You don't know that Merrill studied any lore whatsoever. And you've been making definitive about things without any evidence either, such as Hawke's "obsession" and Merrill wanting to help the people, when she really only says that she wants to restore it for the sake of learning more about their history. Merrill wanting to fix the Mirror does not mean that she's trying to end the plight of the Elves, so I don't know where you got this ridiculous notion into your head? She wants to restore the Eluvian to bring back a lost piece of their history, in the hope that it can teach the Elves something about themselves. That's all the help she thinks it can provide. And if you don't see why Merrill spending years focused on the mirror to the detriment of everything else in her life is a bad thing, you really need your eyes checked. Her obsession leading her astray is the entire theme of her storyline, not some noble struggle of her trying to help the Elves. And yet you ignore the many times game itself explains why the danger involved in Hawke's expedition was substantially reduced from normal, which I have repeatedly attempted to make abundantly clear to you. I'm simply reported the facts as presented in the game, with the explanation and rationale that they provided in the game, for why Hawke and Varric consider it an acceptable risk to embark on the expedition. If still you want to complain at someone, either start another thread or yell at Bioware on Twitter. Yelling at me won't change the facts of the game, regardless of whether you approve or think that it didn't justify the scenario enough. Personally, I think the explanation was perfectly adequate. She doesn't tell the truth about what she's doing, even though they both know it. So yeah, she's lying by omission. Here are the scenes in question; Here we see that Merrill has a very clear and noticeable pause before telling Hawke that she's going to the Alienage, as if she's not sure whether or not to admit that's where she's going. She then quickly tries to make it seem as if it's nothing. The diplomatic response makes it even more obvious that Hawke clearly knows what she's going down there for. In the unromanced version, Varric came to coax her out of the house because Merrill has been hold up there for days. Whereas in the romanced version, Varric comments whether or not Hawke even knows that she's there. A romanced Merrill also is a little embarrassed when speaking to Hawke, saying that she should have told Bodahn where she was going, suggesting this was yet another instance of her slipping out of the estate. So we have Merrill either spending days locked away, sneaking down to work on the her pet project and show embarrassment and anger when those closest to her catch her out with what she's doing. Not sure how I've misconstrued anything. And if you really cannot see the parallel that my analogy was making, again, you need your eyes checked. (I suspect you may assume I dislike Merrill based on my criticism, but that's completely not true. She's actually one of my favourite characters in DA2. But that said, I'm not blind to her faults and going to pretend that her obsession with the Eluvian was in any way healthy, nor did she not suffer from an abundance of stubborn pride. Again, these not my opinions, but something the game shows us clearly and is part of the reason why she's a tragic character and her storyline plays out the way it does) Can we kindly end this boring debate? I highly doubt that anyone else cares! Let us agree that we don't, so we don't have to subject everyone else to endless waffling that most people are likely scrolling past without even reading anyway?
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