Wildfire
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Wildfire on Jan 22, 2017 18:58:02 GMT
I'm just stopping by to say that Merrill is still perfect. Me too! She's adorable, she's Welsh and she's a blood mage who is actually cute and not nuts! Well maybe a bit nuts. But anyhow, what else do you need?
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Post by sgtsteel91 on Jan 23, 2017 15:40:12 GMT
Really hope she doesn't end up allying with Solas.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2017 15:45:30 GMT
Really hope she doesn't end up allying with Solas. I don't think, that she want to back the old world, she rather want to back the elven history. This two not same.
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NeverlandHunter
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Jan 23, 2017 19:36:29 GMT
Really hope she doesn't end up allying with Solas. Merrill, bless her, took all her clan's romanticized legends and stories of her gods and Elvhenan to heart. It would absolutely crush her to realize the truth behind the stories, and I think she would deny it and anyone spewing it. Now, I don't know how Solas would sell himself to gain Dalish support, but if he comes out and says: "I am Fen'Harel, your gods were just powerful beings that were also huge d-bags, those markings mark you as slaves, spirits are friends, oh and I was the cause of the downfall of the People, not the humans." I don't see him getting much support from the Dalish. I know there was a epilogue slide of Dalish disappearing into the woods, and foreboding words about elven mumblings, but I don't see what Solas could be saying to get their support. I think it's more likely his agents are spreading vague propaganda (probably anti-human, anti-establishment propaganda). And I think Merrill is too kind and too good and even too aware, now that she's lost her clan do to her own obsession, to do something that would upset, or go against, her friends.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 23, 2017 20:24:06 GMT
I think it would initially crush her, but then I remember this line that's associated with Merrill:
"It's a Keeper's job to remember. Even the dangerous things."
I think she would realize that knowing the truth, however harsh it may be, is better for the elves than living in ignorance.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 23, 2017 20:50:33 GMT
Really hope she doesn't end up allying with Solas. I doubt it, for the same reason that my Warden wouldn't ally with Solas: he has a human partner and human friends. (Also, he 's a dirty city elf, so even if he survived the Solapocalypse, he'd be at the bottom rung of The New Elven Order.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 23, 2017 21:12:24 GMT
I also doubt that Merrill would side with Solas, regardless of whether he reveals his true self or not. If he reveals himself as Fen'Harel, she obviously wouldn't since he is the devil of her religion. If he keeps that part hidden and instead lies and does vague promises of an elven kingdom, then she still wouldn't because she has friends and possibly the love of her life who are not elven.
Not to mention Varric knows the truth about Solas, and would warn her about him.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 23, 2017 21:40:28 GMT
I could still see a lot of elves siding with Solas even if he is basically "the devil." Dread Wolf or no, he's promising to return the world to the elves.
But definitely not a romanced Merrill.
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NeverlandHunter
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Jan 23, 2017 22:56:06 GMT
I think it would initially crush her, but then I remember this line that's associated with Merrill: "It's a Keeper's job to remember. Even the dangerous things." I think she would realize that knowing the truth, however harsh it may be, is better for the elves than living in ignorance. That's a fair point, but I don't think finding out the foundation of your faith was founded on lies and slavery, was exactly what they meant when that was said.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 24, 2017 11:41:13 GMT
Really hope she doesn't end up allying with Solas. Merrill, bless her, took all her clan's romanticized legends and stories of her gods and Elvhenan to heart. It would absolutely crush her to realize the truth behind the stories, and I think she would deny it and anyone spewing it. Given that Merrill tells Hawke that the Dalish are cognizant of the limitations of what they know, including pointing out that the clan doesn't know who summoned Audacity in the war between the ancient elves and Tevinter humans, and that the Dalish don't know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, I don't think she would. Merrill, like many Dalish, wants to know the truth; that's the whole point of them trying to figure out the knowledge of the past that was lost to centuries of slavery (when they aren't moving around to avoid being attacked because of their religious beliefs). Even the Dalish codex on the fall of Arlathan is framed specifically as a 'legend', and one that may not even be true to what actually happened by the admission of the Dalish. Now, I don't know how Solas would sell himself to gain Dalish support, but if he comes out and says: "I am Fen'Harel, your gods were just powerful beings that were also huge d-bags, those markings mark you as slaves, spirits are friends, oh and I was the cause of the downfall of the People, not the humans." I don't see him getting much support from the Dalish. I know there was a epilogue slide of Dalish disappearing into the woods, and foreboding words about elven mumblings, but I don't see what Solas could be saying to get their support. The Epilogue didn't specify the Dalish, but elven servants (meaning Andrastians): "After the events at the Winter Palace, elves left the Inquisition under mysterious circumstances, as did elven servants across Thedas." I can't imagine many Dalish would ever trust Fen'Harel given how all their stories caution about how duplicitous he is. Then again, if Briala was empowered and was making reforms for elves, I imagine many Andrastian elves would have a viable alternative to trusting Fen'Harel. I think it's more likely his agents are spreading vague propaganda (probably anti-human, anti-establishment propaganda). And I think Merrill is too kind and too good and even too aware, now that she's lost her clan do to her own obsession, to do something that would upset, or go against, her friends. Merrill's clan may have died because of Marethari's act of releasing Audacity, not because of Merrill. Given Marethari's reasoning in Act III was the claim that Audacity would have escaped from the restored Eluvian (in contradiction to her earlier claims in the previous acts), it seems she fell prey to Audacity's manipulations. In much the same way Hawke ventures into the Deep Roads for a fabled fortune for the benefit of his family, Merrill researched lore and extrapolated information from the shard in order to construct an Eluvian because she believed they could help the elves - something that Briala's story shows is was absolutely correct. She wanted to end their plight. But I notice Merrill is repeatedly criticized for trying to irrevocably change the course of elven plight and save the elven people while Hawke is almost never criticized for venturing into the Deep Roads for money.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Jan 24, 2017 22:03:13 GMT
Merrill, bless her, took all her clan's romanticized legends and stories of her gods and Elvhenan to heart. It would absolutely crush her to realize the truth behind the stories, and I think she would deny it and anyone spewing it. Given that Merrill tells Hawke that the Dalish are cognizant of the limitations of what they know, including pointing out that the clan doesn't know who summoned Audacity in the war between the ancient elves and Tevinter humans, and that the Dalish don't know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, I don't think she would. Merrill, like many Dalish, wants to know the truth; that's the whole point of them trying to figure out the knowledge of the past that was lost to centuries of slavery (when they aren't moving around to avoid being attacked because of their religious beliefs). Even the Dalish codex on the fall of Arlathan is framed specifically as a 'legend', and one that may not even be true to what actually happened by the admission of the Dalish. Now, I don't know how Solas would sell himself to gain Dalish support, but if he comes out and says: "I am Fen'Harel, your gods were just powerful beings that were also huge d-bags, those markings mark you as slaves, spirits are friends, oh and I was the cause of the downfall of the People, not the humans." I don't see him getting much support from the Dalish. I know there was a epilogue slide of Dalish disappearing into the woods, and foreboding words about elven mumblings, but I don't see what Solas could be saying to get their support. The Epilogue didn't specify the Dalish, but elven servants (meaning Andrastians): "After the events at the Winter Palace, elves left the Inquisition under mysterious circumstances, as did elven servants across Thedas." I can't imagine many Dalish would ever trust Fen'Harel given how all their stories caution about how duplicitous he is. Then again, if Briala was empowered and was making reforms for elves, I imagine many Andrastian elves would have a viable alternative to trusting Fen'Harel. I think it's more likely his agents are spreading vague propaganda (probably anti-human, anti-establishment propaganda). And I think Merrill is too kind and too good and even too aware, now that she's lost her clan do to her own obsession, to do something that would upset, or go against, her friends. Merrill's clan may have died because of Marethari's act of releasing Audacity, not because of Merrill. Given Marethari's reasoning in Act III was the claim that Audacity would have escaped from the restored Eluvian (in contradiction to her earlier claims in the previous acts), it seems she fell prey to Audacity's manipulations. In much the same way Hawke ventures into the Deep Roads for a fabled fortune for the benefit of his family, Merrill researched lore and extrapolated information from the shard in order to construct an Eluvian because she believed they could help the elves - something that Briala's story shows is was absolutely correct. She wanted to end their plight. But I notice Merrill is repeatedly criticized for trying to irrevocably change the course of elven plight and save the elven people while Hawke is almost never criticized for venturing into the Deep Roads for money. My reasoning for why I think the truth would hurt Merrill so much, and why I think she'd deny it if not given actual proof (as in, I think she'd deny it if a bunch of random elves started spreading it and not if Varric confessed to her), is how she reacted in DA2 with the Eluvian. She was told it was dangerous, she was turned away from her clan from tampering with it, and even Hawke and co. could tell her messing with it was a big no no, but she's so set in her ways, so stubborn and prideful, that she thinks she knows what's best for her and for her people, over the advice of elder Dalish. I think Merrill has a pretty set idea of who the Dalish are and what their history is. And she makes life changing decisions around her faith in her beliefs. I don't think she'd take the truth well... and yes, I know Dalish make an effort to discover history and artifacts from the days of Arlathan, but honestly, I don't think they really want the truth. They want to live by their interpretation of elven history. It's how many religious people deal with facts that poke holes in their stories and beliefs. I specified the Dalish because the epilogue slide showed at least one Dalish, but I know it was talk amongst the elves in general I didn't mean her clan dying, which was a group effort, in my opinion. I meant her having to leave her clan.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 24, 2017 23:46:26 GMT
Given that Merrill tells Hawke that the Dalish are cognizant of the limitations of what they know, including pointing out that the clan doesn't know who summoned Audacity in the war between the ancient elves and Tevinter humans, and that the Dalish don't know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, I don't think she would. Merrill, like many Dalish, wants to know the truth; that's the whole point of them trying to figure out the knowledge of the past that was lost to centuries of slavery (when they aren't moving around to avoid being attacked because of their religious beliefs). Even the Dalish codex on the fall of Arlathan is framed specifically as a 'legend', and one that may not even be true to what actually happened by the admission of the Dalish. The Epilogue didn't specify the Dalish, but elven servants (meaning Andrastians): "After the events at the Winter Palace, elves left the Inquisition under mysterious circumstances, as did elven servants across Thedas." I can't imagine many Dalish would ever trust Fen'Harel given how all their stories caution about how duplicitous he is. Then again, if Briala was empowered and was making reforms for elves, I imagine many Andrastian elves would have a viable alternative to trusting Fen'Harel. Merrill's clan may have died because of Marethari's act of releasing Audacity, not because of Merrill. Given Marethari's reasoning in Act III was the claim that Audacity would have escaped from the restored Eluvian (in contradiction to her earlier claims in the previous acts), it seems she fell prey to Audacity's manipulations. In much the same way Hawke ventures into the Deep Roads for a fabled fortune for the benefit of his family, Merrill researched lore and extrapolated information from the shard in order to construct an Eluvian because she believed they could help the elves - something that Briala's story shows is was absolutely correct. She wanted to end their plight. But I notice Merrill is repeatedly criticized for trying to irrevocably change the course of elven plight and save the elven people while Hawke is almost never criticized for venturing into the Deep Roads for money. My reasoning for why I think the truth would hurt Merrill so much, and why I think she'd deny it if not given actual proof (as in, I think she'd deny it if a bunch of random elves started spreading it and not if Varric confessed to her), is how she reacted in DA2 with the Eluvian. She was told it was dangerous, she was turned away from her clan from tampering with it, and even Hawke and co. could tell her messing with it was a big no no, but she's so set in her ways, so stubborn and prideful, that she thinks she knows what's best for her and for her people, over the advice of elder Dalish. That doesn't fly with me. Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard, but Hawke - a human with no knowledge on elves - told her it was a bad idea from a place of ignorance. Why, exactly, should she listen to Hawke if he (or she) opposes her? Marethari also says that she thinks that the Eluvians should stay buried, and never says anything that would indicate she's put any effort into studying the lore behind them like Merrill has. I think Merrill has a pretty set idea of who the Dalish are and what their history is. And she makes life changing decisions around her faith in her beliefs. There's a difference between who the Dalish are, and who the Arlathan elves were. And Merrill based a decision from an informed place based on exhaustive research she did into the Eluvians, which is more than a lot of characters have done. I don't think she'd take the truth well... and yes, I know Dalish make an effort to discover history and artifacts from the days of Arlathan, but honestly, I don't think they really want the truth. They want to live by their interpretation of elven history. It's how many religious people deal with facts that poke holes in their stories and beliefs. Given how the Dalish admit to the limitations of their own knowledge in both codex entries and Merrill's own admission, I don't see how that's the case. If it was, they would have already made an assumption on who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, but Merrill admits they don't know. Or who summoned Audacity, but Merrill acknowledges that no one is aware about which side summoned or bound the ancient spirit. Repeatedly showing an awareness that they don't know everything would suggest that they aren't bound by interpretations if the People already admit there are many things they simply don't know. I specified the Dalish because the epilogue slide showed at least one Dalish, but I know it was talk amongst the elves in general If the developers elect to follow the lore that's been established, there shouldn't be many Dalish following Fen'Harel. Then again, I'd also say that a number of Andrastian elves should be heading to the Dales if the Inquisitor elected to empower Briala since there's already a plausible option for them to pursue. I didn't mean her clan dying, which was a group effort, in my opinion. I meant her having to leave her clan. Calling it an 'obsession' denotes a negative connotation to her trying to end the plight of her People, and we all know that elves have suffered in Thedas for centuries. Technically speaking, you could call Hawke venturing into the Deep Roads an 'obsession' as well. Venturing into darkspawn infested territory, risking becoming a ghoul through contact with darkspawn blood, risking one's life (and the lives of everyone in the expedition, as well as at least two companions) for a rumored treasure. All of that could easily qualify as an obsession, and for something that doesn't compare to trying to save a race of men, women, and children. What I liked about Merrill is that she was proactive about helping the elves. She didn't wait around for someone else to do something; she tried to save them through revolutionary technology that could have irrevocably changed their lives for the better. And she risked her life to help the elves during Inquisition as well.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:04:40 GMT
[...] I didn't mean her clan dying, which was a group effort, in my opinion. I meant her having to leave her clan. Calling it an 'obsession' denotes a negative connotation to her trying to end the plight of her People, and we all know that elves have suffered in Thedas for centuries. Technically speaking, you could call Hawke venturing into the Deep Roads an 'obsession' as well. Venturing into darkspawn infested territory, risking becoming a ghoul through contact with darkspawn blood, risking one's life (and the lives of everyone in the expedition, as well as at least two companions) for a rumored treasure. All of that could easily qualify as an obsession, and for something that doesn't compare to trying to save a race of men, women, and children. What I liked about Merrill is that she was proactive about helping the elves. She didn't wait around for someone else to do something; she tried to save them through revolutionary technology that could have irrevocably changed their lives for the better. And she risked her life to help the elves during Inquisition as well. Obsession isn't (always) negative... I have some obsessions. Most of them are positive. To parallel Merrill's scientific obsession with Hawke's participation in the expedition is wrong. These are not same, even not similar. Hawke's participation in the expedition is a work. S/He don't felt for anything for it. Obsession is a storng emotion. You want a Hawke-parallel? Hawke can have obsessions: for his/her family, his/her home, his/her lover, and freedom of mages.
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lobselvith8
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 25, 2017 0:28:36 GMT
[...] Calling it an 'obsession' denotes a negative connotation to her trying to end the plight of her People, and we all know that elves have suffered in Thedas for centuries. Technically speaking, you could call Hawke venturing into the Deep Roads an 'obsession' as well. Venturing into darkspawn infested territory, risking becoming a ghoul through contact with darkspawn blood, risking one's life (and the lives of everyone in the expedition, as well as at least two companions) for a rumored treasure. All of that could easily qualify as an obsession, and for something that doesn't compare to trying to save a race of men, women, and children. What I liked about Merrill is that she was proactive about helping the elves. She didn't wait around for someone else to do something; she tried to save them through revolutionary technology that could have irrevocably changed their lives for the better. And she risked her life to help the elves during Inquisition as well. Obsession isn't (always) negative... I have some obsessions. Most of them are positive. To parallel Merrill's scientific obsession with Hawke's participation in the expedition is wrong. These are not same, even not similar. Hawke's participation in the expedition is a work. S/He don't feel for anything for it. Obsession is a storng emotion. You want a Hawke-parallel? Hawke can have obsessions: for his/her family, his/her home, his/her lover, and freedom of mages. I don't agree. Hawke isn't emotionally detached from becoming a wealthy noble. It isn't work, it's personal. Hawke clearly feels something about becoming rich and regaining the Amell manor. It's a path that's pursued even when Hawke accumulates a solid amount of money without the expedition. To focus on that goal to the extent that the lives of other people are at risk is something you can easily call an obsession.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2017 0:35:53 GMT
Obsession isn't (always) negative... I have some obsessions. Most of them are positive. To parallel Merrill's scientific obsession with Hawke's participation in the expedition is wrong. These are not same, even not similar. Hawke's participation in the expedition is a work. S/He don't feel for anything for it. Obsession is a storng emotion. You want a Hawke-parallel? Hawke can have obsessions: for his/her family, his/her home, his/her lover, and freedom of mages. I don't agree. Hawke isn't emotionally detached from becoming a wealthy noble. It isn't work, it's personal. Hawke clearly feels something about becoming rich and regaining the Amell manor. It's a path that's pursued even when Hawke accumulates a solid amount of money without the expedition. To focus on that goal to the extent that the lives of other people are at risk is something you can easily call an obsession. Hawke killed hundreds. Not excluded, that some of them from obsession. But the expedition was Bartrand's obsession, not Hawke's. S/He don't wanted to regaining Amell manor. Leandra wanted.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 30, 2017 9:09:24 GMT
I don't agree. Hawke isn't emotionally detached from becoming a wealthy noble. It isn't work, it's personal. Hawke clearly feels something about becoming rich and regaining the Amell manor. It's a path that's pursued even when Hawke accumulates a solid amount of money without the expedition. To focus on that goal to the extent that the lives of other people are at risk is something you can easily call an obsession. Even if you manage to raise over a hundred sovereigns prior to the expedition, that doesn't make Hawke rich by any means. We learned in Sera's entry in World of Thedas that Lady Emmald's estate had an estimated value of 27,000 Sovereigns... making whatever money Hawke scrounged up in Act 1 and can have on hand throughout the rest of the game, basically amount to pocket change. Actually pocket change might accurately describe our cash during the later acts. Unless it's a game constraint to make money matter, rather than us being able to go into a shop and buy up every single bit of overpowered gear available. We never do learn how much Hawke was actually is worth following the success of the Deep Roads expedition, only that it could make them financially secure for the rest of their life. Early in Act 2, Aveline mentions that Hawke poured a lot of coin into Kirkwall, so like Varric, much of their money may be invested in their estate and in various holdings (such as Hawke's stake in the Bone Pit). Most of the motivation for Hawke joining the expedition is spelled out when we meet Varric. Varric: The truth is that Bartrand's been tearing his beard out trying to fund this expedition on his own and he can't do it. Invest in the expedition, 50 Sovereigns, and he can't refuse. Not with me there to vouch for you. It seems that at this point in the game, even a pair of merchant princes like Bartrand and Varric aren't rich enough to fund a small expedition into the Deep Roads completely by themselves. Varric and Bartrand may have shelled far more than 50 Sovereigns into the expedition, but what got Hawke an equal share was that they signed on to serve as both muscle, financial backer and provided the necessary Warden maps showing multiple entrances to the Deep Roads. Hawke: It sounds interesting - but if I had any gold, I wouldn't need this job. Varric: You need to think big! There's only a brief window after a Blight when the Deep Roads won't be crawling with darkspawn. The treasure you find down there could set you and your family up for life. It's not really far to say that Hawke was needlessly risking themselves by venturing into the Deep Roads at this point, as the Deep Roads were relatively clear of Darkspawn during this period of time and thus made it (slightly) safer for them to travel. Varric's narration states they travelled for three weeks below the surface before they ran into trouble, while following Bartrand's betrayal, it took another week of detours to get back to that place (and another detour if Hawke's sibling has to seek out a Warden). The only other time we venture there (besides briefly in Legacy) is one other time, depending on if we've got an Awakening save imported. We're either guilt-tripped by an elderly dwarf into rescuing his two sons who tried to follow in our expedition's footsteps, or we're guilt-tripped by Nathaniel's sister (and Anders) in Act 3 into finding him. Both required Hawke's participation because the person missing was trying to reach the Primeval Thaig, which only a scant few people know about. (Originally the two missions weren't conditional. Cut content for DA2 reveals that saving Merin in Act 2 would have had him appear in Act 3 along with Nathaniel, having been inspired to join the Wardens.) But yeah, Hawke only ventures into the Deep Roads a grand total of three times. Varric: Look... I know the Templars have been asking questions. How bad would it be to get out of the city for a while? If this works out, you'll be wealthy enough that the Order won't be able to touch you. You need the coin and I need your help. We need each other. I can't it make it sound better than that? Hawke's other motivation was to ensure that their family wouldn't come under Templar scrutiny and risk Bethany/Hawke being discovered as apostates, something we're told they've been struggling with hiding prior to the start of Act 1. After serving their year with Athenril/Meeran to get them into the city, they had no real stable employment and keeping food on the table relied on what jobs they could take... which wasn't easy, since most of Kirkwall seemed to have a "No Dog-Lords" sign hung in their windows. The expedition was the best way to gain lifelong financial security, some measure of protection from Templars and have enough money to buy back the family estate. It was obviously a risky and dangerous "get rich quick" scheme, but since they were desperate, it was the best option on the table.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 11:47:31 GMT
I don't agree. Hawke isn't emotionally detached from becoming a wealthy noble. It isn't work, it's personal. Hawke clearly feels something about becoming rich and regaining the Amell manor. It's a path that's pursued even when Hawke accumulates a solid amount of money without the expedition. To focus on that goal to the extent that the lives of other people are at risk is something you can easily call an obsession. Even if you manage to raise over a hundred sovereigns prior to the expedition, that doesn't make Hawke rich by any means. We learned in Sera's entry in World of Thedas that Lady Emmald's estate had an estimated value of 27,000 Sovereigns... making whatever money Hawke scrounged up in Act 1 and can have on hand throughout the rest of the game, basically amount to pocket change. Actually pocket change might accurately describe our cash during the later acts. Unless it's a game constraint to make money matter, rather than us being able to go into a shop and buy up every single bit of overpowered gear available. So Hawke is motivated by a financial goal, and Merrill is motivated by a desire to save her people because of the abysmal situation that elves are in, but only one is consistently treated as obsessed while the other is repeatedly excused for funding an expedition into the darkspawn infested Deep Roads for a rumored treasure that may or may not exist. The issue, simply put, is that it's easy for people to put the worst slant on what Merrill is doing, and yet Hawke is exempt from that line of thinking even though you could easily apply the same criticisms to him. That's the point. The expedition was the best way to gain lifelong financial security, some measure of protection from Templars and have enough money to buy back the family estate. It was obviously a risky and dangerous "get rich quick" scheme, but since they were desperate, it was the best option on the table. Becoming a noble in Kirkwall is not the only goal he could have pursued to avoid the templars, which was always going to be an issue given the nearby presence of the Circle of Kirkwall and the city-state serving as the center of templar power in eastern Thedas. When it comes to ending the plight of the elves, however, there aren't exactly an abundance of options that can be pursued to try and change things.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 30, 2017 15:04:36 GMT
So Hawke is motivated by a financial goal, and Merrill is motivated by a desire to save her people because of the abysmal situation that elves are in, but only one is consistently treated as obsessed while the other is repeatedly excused for funding an expedition into the darkspawn infested Deep Roads for a rumored treasure that may or may not exist. The issue, simply put, is that it's easy for people to put the worst slant on what Merrill is doing, and yet Hawke is exempt from that line of thinking even though you could easily apply the same criticisms to him. That's the point. Because as stated above, Hawke only ventures into the Deep Roads on three occasions, the latter two times only extremely briefly. That doesn't not qualify as anything near an obsession. At no point in either game is Hawke is ever shown as wanting to venture into the Deep Roads intentionally, but only does so when circumstances either require or force them into. The Deep Roads expedition was a once in a lifetime event that relied upon the Darkspawn presence being low and based on information that even Varric viewed as being reliable, otherwise he'd have not dared to step one foot underground. Furthermore, we start Act 1 with Hawke and their sibling being thrown out by Bartrand after trying to join the expedition as a hireling. A job we eventually see includes shifting rubble, carrying the heavy equipment and suffering Bartrand's verbal and physical abuse. Hardly the sort of job that people not in dire circumstances would be clamouring over themselves to try to get Bartrand to let them in on. Other various bits of dangerous grunt work that Hawke does for coin in Act 1; - Retrieve a prisoner from a monster-infested ruin for a city magistrate.
- Discover what happened to Ghyslain's wife and try to bring her back.
- Hunt Tal-Vashoth for a cut of the profits from Javaris' future plans for Gaatlok.
- Agree to take a dangerous Saarebas out of the city for Sister Petrice.
- Venture to the Bone Pit to discover the fate of the miners.
- Defeat the Carta assassins going after Renvil Harrowmont (if Bhelen is King).
- Defeat a company of assassins who wiped out Sebastian's entire family.
It's safe to say that Hawke is severely desperate for money during the events of the first Act. This is why acquiring enough money to buy a ticket onto the expedition does not constitute an obsession, but rather serves as Hawke's overarching goal in Act 1, as the expedition provided the best means to get their family out of poverty and give them a better life. ( Goal: "The object of a person's ambition or effort; an aim or desired result.") While Merrill likewise has a goal in wanting to restore the Eluvian, hoping that it can help bring a better life to the elves, it becomes an obsession as she focuses on it to the exclusion of all else and detriment of relationships with other individuals. When we first meet her, she's already turned to blood magic and consorted with a demon in order to cleanse the Eluvian shards, trying to restore the mirror so the death of Tamlen (and Mahariel) wouldn't have been in vain. As a result, she's alienated herself from the clan and ends up going into self-imposed exile in Kirkwall. By Act 3, if not romanced it's revealed in the codex that she's began spending increasingly more time locked away in her house working on the mirror. The only times she does venture out is for food, which happens so infrequently, Varric began ordering food delivered directly to her door, so he's certain that she's eaten something. Whereas if romanced, despite moving in with Hawke, the codex reveals that Merrill continues to slip away to her old shack to work on the mirror. There's even a romance-specific scene at the start of Act 3 where she lies to Hawke about why she's going back to her house (which Hawke pretends not to notice). At the beginning of Act 3, Merrill also shows clear irritation when Varric expresses his concern about her behaviour, claiming that she has "too much to do" when he tries to convince her to go out for a walk or some fresh air once and a while. Thus people are right to refer to Merrill as having an obsession with the Eluvian, because it's all that she focuses on for several years and it's something she continues to do even after suffering multiple negative consequences from it. ( Obsession: "An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind".) And before anyone points out the obvious negative consequences that arose from the Deep Roads Expedition, most of them took years to become apparent and did not result from any involvement or action on Hawke's part. After all, Bartrand may have been forced to accept Dougal's offer if Hawke hadn't raised the money, meaning the expedition could have easily gone on without their participation. The only negative result that directly involves Hawke was potentially losing their sibling either to the Blight/Wardens/Circle/Templar. However all of these outcomes were completely outside of their control to prevent, since they came down to bad luck and were the result of circumstance. Bethany/Carver both expressing that they wanted to go on the expedition, so we can't blame Hawke if they caught the Blight anymore than say Aveline was responsible for when it happened to Wesley. Everyone in the Deep Roads was at risk, they just happened to be particularly unlucky. Otherwise Bethany was discovered (or contacted) the Circle, while Carver decided to join the Templars, both while their elder sibling was still outside Kirkwall. By the time that Hawke returned to the city, the damage was done and they were already heading to the Gallows. As opposed to what exactly? What other course of action could Hawke have taken to avoid the Templars? Even Aveline who managed to join the City Guard seems to practically live at the barracks during Act 1, rather than having a place of her own, so the pay probably isn't that great. The only reason it seems she even got the job was because had served as an officer in the Fereldan army and clearly had the necessary training. In contrast, while non-Mage Hawke and Carver fought at Ostagar, they spent most of their early lives as farmers, not soldiers. They might know how to use a weapon effectively, but don't really have real experience following orders. Aveline even gives this reason to Carver for why she told the guards not to accept his application, since he doesn't respect authority, doesn't listen and often acts without thinking, which makes him a liability.
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lobselvith8
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Posts: 426 Likes: 496
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 31, 2017 4:49:22 GMT
So Hawke is motivated by a financial goal, and Merrill is motivated by a desire to save her people because of the abysmal situation that elves are in, but only one is consistently treated as obsessed while the other is repeatedly excused for funding an expedition into the darkspawn infested Deep Roads for a rumored treasure that may or may not exist. The issue, simply put, is that it's easy for people to put the worst slant on what Merrill is doing, and yet Hawke is exempt from that line of thinking even though you could easily apply the same criticisms to him. That's the point. Because as stated above, Hawke only ventures into the Deep Roads on three occasions, the latter two times only extremely briefly. That doesn't not qualify as anything near an obsession. At no point in either game is Hawke is ever shown as wanting to venture into the Deep Roads intentionally, but only does so when circumstances either require or force them into. The Deep Roads expedition was a once in a lifetime event that relied upon the Darkspawn presence being low and based on information that even Varric viewed as being reliable, otherwise he'd have not dared to step one foot underground. I'd say that venturing into the Deep Roads for a rumored treasure is sufficient enough to be argued to be an obsession. It's a region where darkspawn dwell, where any contact with darkspawn blood will irrevocably contaminate you, and all for a treasure that may not even exist. Arguing that the darkspawn population isn't quite as high doesn't negate the danger that exists in the underground tunnels. Furthermore, we start Act 1 with Hawke and their sibling being thrown out by Bartrand after trying to join the expedition as a hireling. A job we eventually see includes shifting rubble, carrying the heavy equipment and suffering Bartrand's verbal and physical abuse. Hardly the sort of job that people not in dire circumstances would be clamouring over themselves to try to get Bartrand to let them in on. Pointing to an example of Hawke being willing to endanger his life for money isn't really the best example to use if you're trying to say I'm wrong. This is why acquiring enough money to buy a ticket onto the expedition does not constitute an obsession, but rather serves as Hawke's overarching goal in Act 1, as the expedition provided the best means to get their family out of poverty and give them a better life. So Hawke looking to better his life means it's not an obsession, but Merrill looking to better the lives of an entire race of men, women, and children who are suffering does count as an obsession? There's a slight flaw with that line of thought. While Merrill likewise has a goal in wanting to restore the Eluvian, hoping that it can help bring a better life to the elves, it becomes an obsession as she focuses on it to the exclusion of all else and detriment of relationships with other individuals. Technically speaking, it's not to the exclusion of all else. Merrill is making friends in the alienage, which is why she suggests the name of a woman from the alienage when she recommends that Sebastian could name his bow, or how she is able to reassure Huon's wife that they mean no harm (because the two women are already familiar with one another). Merrill spends some of her time trying to figure out the key to activating the Eluvian. Hawke spends some of his time gathering money so he can co-sponsor an expedition into the Deep Roads that can potentially cause the deaths of every single member of the expedition, all so Hawke can possibly find a fortune instead of using the money he's made towards the end of Act I to go into the country and establish a life for himself and his mother. Of course, that wouldn't make him filthy rich, so he focuses on the fabled treasure. When we first meet her, she's already turned to blood magic and consorted with a demon in order to cleanse the Eluvian shards, trying to restore the mirror so the death of Tamlen (and Mahariel) wouldn't have been in vain. As a result, she's alienated herself from the clan and ends up going into self-imposed exile in Kirkwall. You mean she spoke to an ancient spirit who was sundered from the Beyond and has been trapped in a totem for millennia, and is in no position to physically harm anyone as a result. Also, she isn't trying to restore the mirror; she is constructing an Eluvian. By Act 3, if not romanced it's revealed in the codex that she's began spending increasingly more time locked away in her house working on the mirror. The only times she does venture out is for food, which happens so infrequently, Varric began ordering food delivered directly to her door, so he's certain that she's eaten something. Just like Hawke spent an increasing amount of time gathering money so he could fund an expedition for a fabled treasure that could make him rich, even though such a goal was at a destination filled with darkspawn - one of the deadliest creatures in Thedas. Whereas if romanced, despite moving in with Hawke, the codex reveals that Merrill continues to slip away to her old shack to work on the mirror. There's even a romance-specific scene at the start of Act 3 where she lies to Hawke about why she's going back to her house (which Hawke pretends not to notice). At the beginning of Act 3, Merrill also shows clear irritation when Varric expresses his concern about her behaviour, claiming that she has "too much to do" when he tries to convince her to go out for a walk or some fresh air once and a while. So, because Merrill's pursuit is somewhat intellectual and she spends time trying to decipher the problem, that makes her obsessed, but since Hawke is physically killing people for his goal and spends time slaughtering them through physical exertion, he's exempt from such a label... Thus people are right to refer to Merrill as having an obsession with the Eluvian, because it's all that she focuses on for several years and it's something she continues to do even after suffering multiple negative consequences from it. People can call Merrill obsessive, and the same label can be applied to Hawke as he's also obsessive about venturing to acquire a fabled treasure in the darkspawn-infested Deep Roads. ( Obsession: "An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind".) Like the treasure in the Deep Roads is to Hawke. And before anyone points out the obvious negative consequences that arose from the Deep Roads Expedition, most of them took years to become apparent and did not result from any involvement or action on Hawke's part. After all, Bartrand may have been forced to accept Dougal's offer if Hawke hadn't raised the money, meaning the expedition could have easily gone on without their participation. Or, quite possibly, Bartrand wouldn't have gone on the expedition if he couldn't raise the money since Dougal and him hated each other. Even Varric mentions that, without Hawke, they may have never gone on the expedition and found the lyrium idol. The only negative result that directly involves Hawke was potentially losing their sibling either to the Blight/Wardens/Circle/Templar. However all of these outcomes were completely outside of their control to prevent, since they came down to bad luck and were the result of circumstance. Bethany/Carver both expressing that they wanted to go on the expedition, so we can't blame Hawke if they caught the Blight anymore than say Aveline was responsible for when it happened to Wesley. Everyone in the Deep Roads was at risk, they just happened to be particularly unlucky. I'm pretty sure the aforementioned darkspawn related dangers are still the primary issue when it comes to venturing into the Deep Roads. Becoming a noble in Kirkwall is not the only goal he could have pursued to avoid the templars, which was always going to be an issue given the nearby presence of the Circle of Kirkwall and the city-state serving as the center of templar power in eastern Thedas. When it comes to ending the plight of the elves, however, there aren't exactly an abundance of options that can be pursued to try and change things. As opposed to what exactly? What other course of action could Hawke have taken to avoid the Templars? Not living in the center of templar power over eastern Thedas would have been one option.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 31, 2017 13:05:46 GMT
If anyone "obsessed" by the expedition, Carver was, not his sister/brother... But this is still NOT obsession. This is a money-making opportunity. A work. And you're right, as I said. Hawke has killed many people. But. Not. Fucking. Obsessed. By. Expedition. S/He could have many obsessions, none of these the expedition. You don't need to defend Merrill from us, I think, no one here have problem with her, we all can appreciate her understandable obsession with the Eluvian.
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Champion of Kirkwall
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 31, 2017 21:35:59 GMT
I'd say that venturing into the Deep Roads for a rumored treasure is sufficient enough to be argued to be an obsession. It's a region where darkspawn dwell, where any contact with darkspawn blood will irrevocably contaminate you, and all for a treasure that may not even exist. Arguing that the darkspawn population isn't quite as high doesn't negate the danger that exists in the underground tunnels. Since I've already defined the actual meaning of obsession, no, it really doesn't. Furthermore, the Darkspawn presence was extremely low at this point in time, so there's far less chance of coming into contact with Darkspawn blood, being contaminated and contracting the Blight. You should also consider that Legionnaires such as Kardol and Renn spent years actively fighting the Darkspawn without succumbing to the taint, so it's really only a matter of extreme bad luck when it does happen. The expedition wasn't aimlessly stumbling around for rumoured treasure. Bartrand had accumulated a lot of information over years that suggested there was a lost Thaig in that section of the Deep Roads that hadn't been scavenged, so the the goal of the expedition was to search for relics, antiques and artefacts that might be worth something. It wasn't simply looking for a pile of gold as if it was drawn with a big X on a treasure map. It clearly demonstrates that Hawke had so little money at this point in time, they were willing to take any job, no matter how dangerous in the hopes of improving their situation. I'd say that it definitely shows you're wrong. Wanting to better one's life is not an obsession, but a goal that practically everyone aspires to. But how precisely does Merrill hope to improve the lives of an entire race of men, women and children who are suffering with the Eluvian, pray tell? She wanted to restore it for the sake of bringing back a relic from Elven history, but how does that have any tangible impact on things? Merrill neither knew how to fix the Eluvian, how it worked or even what exactly it did? We know what it does, but she believed it was some kind of communication device. How did seriously think fixing up a busted walkie-talkie would end all Elven suffering, even if she somehow beat the odds and got it working? At the end of Act 3, Merrill admits that she's barely paid any attention to the elves in the alienage in the several years that she's lived there. Her codex and World of Thedas likewise state that she's considered a mystery by most of her neighbours, who only really know her as the woman who routinely gets lost. Alienages are often shown to be extremely close-knit communities, so that Merrill has failed to really become acquainted with all but a scant few people despite living there for several years demonstrates that how reclusive she'd become. I think you are several overestimating the amount of money that 50 Sovereigns is actually worth, since you should remember we tend to earn at least 4-8 Sovereigns as a reward for turning in most quests. So I really don't think Hawke is nearly as rich as you think they are during Act 1. I'd love to know where you got it into your head that Hawke has the option to "go to the country", when they don't even have enough to move out of Gamlen's dirty old shack that smells like mouldy cabbage? The part of Lowtown where Gamlen's house is located is referred to as the Slum District. Considering that we're told that most of the coast and inland Free Marches are packed with refugees, there's nowhere else for them to go. Hawke does bring up going elsewhere in the prologue and Bethany/Carver immediately shoot it down because Kirkwall is their mother's home and it's where they have family. Thus there really is nowhere better to go. In the short story that serves as Merrill's prologue piece for DA2, we learn that Merrill first encountered Audacity while searching the cave with Marethari, where it tried to tempt them with knowledge of Elven history. Marethari warned Merrill to not venture back into the cave, but obviously she ignored her and let her curiosity get the better of her. Merrill confirms in banter with Anders that she learned blood magic from Audacity in order to cleanse the shard. However she was unable to get any more information on how to fix the Eluvian from the demon, suspecting that it knew, but was withholding the information so she'd be forced to make a deal. As pointed out above, there are plenty of items and valuables left behind when the Dwarves abandoned both their Thaigs and the Deep Roads to escape the Darkspawn. Many of those items are still there and all they require is someone to come along and pick them up. Bodahn himself is one of the many people who make a living scavenging these lost items. It's even the reason he admits was how he got himself exiled, after being found selling in his shop, a "stolen" pair of bracers belonging to a noble lost in a cave-in. Likewise, Bodahn found Sandal while exploring some tunnels for artefacts. And once again, they were taking advantage of the brief window following a Blight where the Deep Roads were largely empty of Darkspawn, thus making it far less dangerous to travel the depths than it would normally have been. Varric explains this to us clearly as the main reason they're going ahead with it in the first place. False equivalence. Trying to simplify it as "Merrill is right because she's a nerd" while "Hawke is wrong because they're a jock" is ludicrous because they're both completely separate issues that have nothing in common with each other. Even if Hawke wasn't trying to save up for the expedition, they still were forced to sell themselves as a mercenary in order to raise money and put food on the table for their family. Hawke having an extremely bad job is not inherently bad, nor did it negatively impact their relationships with their friends or family. In comparison, Merrill spent years deliberately isolating herself from everyone, alienated her entire clan, worrying her friends, actively lying to her loved ones and neglecting to eat on a regular basis. That is not normal or healthy behaviour. Which has been repeatedly debunked by everyone here. That's not an obsession. Hawke barely even mentions the expedition whatsoever in Act 1 unless it's brought up by someone else. That's not obsessive behaviour. Or more likely, Dougal would have found another frontman, so Bartrand would accept his investment. So it's a really good thing the Darkspawn are barely present immediately following a Blight, isn't it? Because somehow no Templars exist outside of Kirkwall? Even in Lothering the family had to be careful to avoid attracting unwanted attention from the order, so really it's no more risky in Kirkwall than anywhere else in Thedas. The Templars may have a huge presence in the city, but with so many refugees flooding the city, apostates are more able to hide in the crowd.
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lobselvith8
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Posts: 426 Likes: 496
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 1, 2017 0:54:41 GMT
I'd say that venturing into the Deep Roads for a rumored treasure is sufficient enough to be argued to be an obsession. It's a region where darkspawn dwell, where any contact with darkspawn blood will irrevocably contaminate you, and all for a treasure that may not even exist. Arguing that the darkspawn population isn't quite as high doesn't negate the danger that exists in the underground tunnels. Since I've already defined the actual meaning of obsession, no, it really doesn't. Considering that Hawke's preoccupation with gaining wealth lead to him being part of the expedition, it actually is. Furthermore, the Darkspawn presence was extremely low at this point in time, so there's far less chance of coming into contact with Darkspawn blood, being contaminated and contracting the Blight. You should also consider that Legionnaires such as Kardol and Renn spent years actively fighting the Darkspawn without succumbing to the taint, so it's really only a matter of extreme bad luck when it does happen. I'm not going to pretend that venturing into an area where the darkspawn dwell should be mitigated because because they aren't as numerous as they usually are, particularly when even physical contact with darkspawn blood will permanently corrupt a person and turn them into a ghoul. The darkspawn are one of the most dangerous creatures in all of known civilization. The expedition wasn't aimlessly stumbling around for rumoured treasure. Bartrand had accumulated a lot of information over years that suggested there was a lost Thaig in that section of the Deep Roads that hadn't been scavenged, so the the goal of the expedition was to search for relics, antiques and artefacts that might be worth something. It wasn't simply looking for a pile of gold as if it was drawn with a big X on a treasure map. With the hope that there would be treasure in this lost thaig that was located in the darkspawn infested Deep Roads. Pointing to an example of Hawke being willing to endanger his life for money isn't really the best example to use if you're trying to say I'm wrong. It clearly demonstrates that Hawke had so little money at this point in time, they were willing to take any job, no matter how dangerous in the hopes of improving their situation. I'd say that it definitely shows you're wrong. Wanting to "improve their station" doesn't prove that I'm wrong when I'm pointing to Hawke's willingness to go to dangerous lengths for a rumored treasure in the Deep Roads. Again, the argument can be made that Hawke was obsessed. You're more than welcome not to share that position, but so far, you haven't invalidated it as a position people can take. So Hawke looking to better his life means it's not an obsession, but Merrill looking to better the lives of an entire race of men, women, and children who are suffering does count as an obsession? There's a slight flaw with that line of thought. Wanting to better one's life is not an obsession, but a goal that practically everyone aspires to. I'm pretty sure "practically everyone" in Thedas does not aspire to improve the lives of an entire race of people. But how precisely does Merrill hope to improve the lives of an entire race of men, women and children who are suffering with the Eluvian, pray tell? She wanted to restore it for the sake of bringing back a relic from Elven history, but how does that have any tangible impact on things? Merrill explicitly says that the Eluvian can help the People, and Briala's storyline involving the Eluvian addresses how useful they can be; Gaspard notes it could have changed everything for the Orlesian Empire, and Briala uses the Orlesian network to leverage rights for the elves. Clearly, Merrill was absolutely right in saying that the Eluvians could help the People. Merrill neither knew how to fix the Eluvian, how it worked or even what exactly it did? We know what it does, but she believed it was some kind of communication device. How did seriously think fixing up a busted walkie-talkie would end all Elven suffering, even if she somehow beat the odds and got it working? Merrill wasn't fixing an Eluvian, she was constructing one. Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and even extrapolated information from the shard. Admittedly, Merrill doesn't delve much into the Eluvians, but neither does Morrigan when she activates one in the Dragonbone Wastes. Technically speaking, it's not to the exclusion of all else. Merrill is making friends in the alienage, which is why she suggests the name of a woman from the alienage when she recommends that Sebastian could name his bow, or how she is able to reassure Huon's wife that they mean no harm (because the two women are already familiar with one another). At the end of Act 3, Merrill admits that she's barely paid any attention to the elves in the alienage in the several years that she's lived there. Her codex and World of Thedas likewise state that she's considered a mystery by most of her neighbours, who only really know her as the woman who routinely gets lost. Merrill's conversation with Sebastian and her familiarity with Nyssa illustrate that she does know her neighbors. And considering that Merrill is the one who protects these people from the Mage-Templar War (as explained by Varric), that suggests that the dialogue speaking of her familiarity with the elves of the alienage is accurate, as it makes little sense for the elves to trust someone who is a total stranger to them with their lives. WoT is also in contradiction when it comes to Sera's age. It's not a book of indisputable fact. Merrill spends some of her time trying to figure out the key to activating the Eluvian. Hawke spends some of his time gathering money so he can co-sponsor an expedition into the Deep Roads that can potentially cause the deaths of every single member of the expedition, all so Hawke can possibly find a fortune instead of using the money he's made towards the end of Act I to go into the country and establish a life for himself and his mother. Of course, that wouldn't make him filthy rich, so he focuses on the fabled treasure. I think you are several overestimating the amount of money that 50 Sovereigns is actually worth, since you should remember we tend to earn at least 4-8 Sovereigns as a reward for turning in most quests. So I really don't think Hawke is nearly as rich as you think they are during Act 1. I never said Hawke was rich at that point; I said he had enough money to make a life for himself outside of Kirkwall. Considering this is exact amount needed to co-fund the expedition into the Deep Roads, it's hardly the chump change you're suggesting it is. I'd love to know where you got it into your head that Hawke has the option to "go to the country", when they don't even have enough to move out of Gamlen's dirty old shack that smells like mouldy cabbage? The part of Lowtown where Gamlen's house is located is referred to as the Slum District. Considering you already acknowledged the point in time I'm referencing in the statement just above this one, I'm going to assume you didn't mean that literally. Considering that we're told that most of the coast and inland Free Marches are packed with refugees, there's nowhere else for them to go. Hawke does bring up going elsewhere in the prologue and Bethany/Carver immediately shoot it down because Kirkwall is their mother's home and it's where they have family. Thus there really is nowhere better to go. Given that I'm talking about a point in time where Hawke makes a fair amount of money - which you already acknowledged above, although you seemed to regard it as chump change despite it being sufficient enough to fund an expedition into the Deep Roads - I don't see why you keep referencing back to a point in time before this. You mean she spoke to an ancient spirit who was sundered from the Beyond and has been trapped in a totem for millennia, and is in no position to physically harm anyone as a result. Also, she isn't trying to restore the mirror; she is constructing an Eluvian. In the short story that serves as Merrill's prologue piece for DA2, we learn that Merrill first encountered Audacity while searching the cave with Marethari, where it tried to tempt them with knowledge of Elven history. Marethari warned Merrill to not venture back into the cave, but obviously she ignored her and let her curiosity get the better of her. And nothing you wrote changes what I explained above. Merrill confirms in banter with Anders that she learned blood magic from Audacity in order to cleanse the shard. However she was unable to get any more information on how to fix the Eluvian from the demon, suspecting that it knew, but was withholding the information so she'd be forced to make a deal. Gaider already confirmed that she was constructing the Eluvian based on lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the shard she cleansed, and that she incorporated the shard into the construction of the Eluvian she was building. Funny enough, not only does Merrill explicitly tell an aggressive Hawke that she has no intention of releasing Audacity, but Marethari openly admits that she set Audacity free because she believes the ancient spirit will escape through the restored Eluvian. At no point does Marethari claim that Merrill would have made a deal with Audacity. Just like Hawke spent an increasing amount of time gathering money so he could fund an expedition for a fabled treasure that could make him rich, even though such a goal was at a destination filled with darkspawn - one of the deadliest creatures in Thedas. As pointed out above, there are plenty of items and valuables left behind when the Dwarves abandoned both their Thaigs and the Deep Roads to escape the Darkspawn. Many of those items are still there and all they require is someone to come along and pick them up. Wanting to be rich doesn't disprove my point. So, because Merrill's pursuit is somewhat intellectual and she spends time trying to decipher the problem, that makes her obsessed, but since Hawke is physically killing people for his goal and spends time slaughtering them through physical exertion, he's exempt from such a label... False equivalence. Trying to simplify it as "Merrill is right because she's a nerd" while "Hawke is wrong because they're a jock" is ludicrous because they're both completely separate issues that have nothing in common with each other. If you recall, my initial point was that while one could say Merrill was obsessive, the same is also true of Hawke. To call it a 'false equivalency', and then completely miss the point of what I actually said, doesn't quite fit. And in the statement you quoted, I'm criticizing you for what seems to be your double-standard of exempting Hawke from being obsessive despite him filling the same parameters as Merrill. Even if Hawke wasn't trying to save up for the expedition, they still were forced to sell themselves as a mercenary in order to raise money and put food on the table for their family. Hawke having an extremely bad job is not inherently bad, nor did it negatively impact their relationships with their friends or family. And Hawke's focus on becoming wealthy through the expedition, again, can still be argued to be obsessive. In comparison, Merrill spent years deliberately isolating herself from everyone, alienated her entire clan, worrying her friends, actively lying to her loved ones and neglecting to eat on a regular basis. That is not normal or healthy behaviour. I'd say that risking one's life and sanity by venturing into the Deep Roads is not a sign of normal or healthy behavior. I'd also point out that Merrill didn't isolate herself from everyone and she outright tells a romanced Hawke that she's heading to her home because she left some things undone there. People can call Merrill obsessive, and the same label can be applied to Hawke as he's also obsessive about venturing to acquire a fabled treasure in the darkspawn-infested Deep Roads. Which has been repeatedly debunked by everyone here. That's not an obsession. Sorry to disappoint you, but saying that Hawke has a sob story isn't debunking anything.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 1, 2017 1:36:02 GMT
Yes. Hawke not really the person, about whom comes to mind the word: the sanity, there is no doubt. He did a lot of crazy things, we can say it. Probably the expedition to Deep Roads was one of them. But still was not obsession. Yes. Hawke can have a lot of obsession. For example toward his/her family: sister/brother, mother, for whom he have undertaken this expedition. But the expedition to the Deep Roads was not one of Hawke's obsessions. Merrill's obsession was the history of his people, in relation to this Eluvian, what killed Tamlen. This is a good obsession, a good cause. If the suggestion really came out from her mind. What about, if the Eluvian's demon wanted her to help to free itself? Merrill contacted with mirror in the cave... She was brave (or reckless?), and finally (with Hawke's and his/her friend's help), she succeed (or failed with this, but alive), and got a new goal (help to the Alienage). But this still an obsession. (Varric spoke about, what happened after the mage rebellion started. Until then, Merrill did not really care about the elves in the Alienage. He wasn't insensitive toward them, simply the Eluvian was even more interesting for her.)
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 1, 2017 1:50:32 GMT
Like the treasure in the Deep Roads is to Hawke. Hawke barely even mentions the expedition whatsoever in Act 1 unless it's brought up by someone else. That's not obsessive behaviour. Act I is built around Hawke wanting to get into the expedition. Again, it can be considered obsessive behavior. Or, quite possibly, Bartrand wouldn't have gone on the expedition if he couldn't raise the money since Dougal and him hated each other. Even Varric mentions that, without Hawke, they may have never gone on the expedition and found the lyrium idol. Or more likely, Dougal would have found another frontman, so Bartrand would accept his investment. It's good to know you think your theories carry more weight than in-game dialogue. I'm pretty sure the aforementioned darkspawn related dangers are still the primary issue when it comes to venturing into the Deep Roads. So it's a really good thing the Darkspawn are barely present immediately following a Blight, isn't it? When you say 'barely exist', are you presuming no one in this thread has actually played the game? Not living in the center of templar power over eastern Thedas would have been one option. Because somehow no Templars exist outside of Kirkwall? I'm sure if you think long and hard about it, you'll understand why there's a difference between living at the center of templar power over eastern Thedas, and other places. When you do, the eyeroll will make very little sense. Even in Lothering the family had to be careful to avoid attracting unwanted attention from the order, so really it's no more risky in Kirkwall than anywhere else in Thedas. The Templars may have a huge presence in the city, but with so many refugees flooding the city, apostates are more able to hide in the crowd. If you think about it, I'm sure you'll understand why there's a difference between a place where a plethora of templars congregate because it's literally their base of operations for eastern Thedas, and other places.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 1, 2017 8:08:34 GMT
Considering that Hawke's preoccupation with gaining wealth lead to him being part of the expedition, it actually is. Wanting to get your family out of poverty and improve your living conditions is not obsessive behaviour. Which completely misses the point I made. With very few Darkspawn currently down there, the chances of running into them and becoming infected by their blood is at an all-time low. If you don't bring your sibling along, no-one in the entire expedition gets infected at all... so clearly it's not nearly the suicide mission you think it is. Which all the information they'd gathered suggested did exist... and which they actually did manage to find. That does not qualify as an obsession.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.Again, how does Merrill actually plan on doing that? She's fixing up a busted old mirror in order to bring back a piece of Elven history, but she has barely the foggiest idea on what it does. How does she think that would have any meaningful impact on the day to day lives of Elven people throughout Thedas, whether they be Dalish or City Elves? In comparison, Hawke used the money from the expedition to not only improve their lives and their families, but according to Aveline poured a lot of money into Kirkwall in order to try to help improve the lives of other people in the city. Hawke also spends their free time actively clearly out bandits and thugs who plague the city, which has an overall more positive impact on their community. Gaspard and Briala discovered what the Eluvians are and the existence of the network, that they recognise could potentially upset the balance of power in Thedas if someone managed to gain control over it. When they make this claim, they can do so with both knowledge and authority on the subject matter. Merrill on the other hand does not know any of these details. She doesn't know what Eluvian does and only can guess at it. Her belief that it could change things for the Elves is completely unfounded because she doesn't have any of the facts necessary to make such a wild claim, even if we as the audience know she's right. From her point of view, she's trying to give a HAM radio to a group of starving people and hoping that it'll change their lives. It doesn't matter that it's actually a friggin' Stargate, she thinks it's an extremely fancy way to communicate across long distances... so how does that help anyone? By using shards from an already-existent Eluvian that was destroyed to restore it to full functionality. Since it still contains components from the original device, one can't even employ Theseus' Paradox over whether an object that replaces all it's components is the same object anymore... it's still the same Eluvian as before, Merrill simply reassembled the pieces and put them in a brand new frame. So her familiarity with Nyssa (who works practically on Merrill's doorstep) and Philomena (a crazy woman who throws things) someone proves that Merrill somehow knows all her neighbours, despite her own admission that she barely knows any of them? You also seem to have forgotten that Merrill protecting the Elves occurs during the Mage-Templar War, years after the events of DA2. Merrill gives up trying to fix the Eluvian entirely following the death of Marethari in 9:37. After losing her clan (either to death or banishment), Merrill makes the decision to finally interact with her neighbours and focus her efforts on helping the Elves of her new community... which is completely in line with what we later learn she's doing by 9:41. WOT does have some lore hiccups when it comes to dates, but overall the information is far more solid than your headcanons. Which I have already disproved by pointing out that the entire Free Marches are completely packed with refugees. Trying to make a life outside of Kirkwall is not an option, nor is something ever suggested by any character, with the only time they even do mention going elsewhere it's to try another city. Hawke never even makes any suggestion they could use the money for the expedition to escape to the country. Stick to facts from the game, not your own headcanon. Not sure what you're even rambling on about here. Except that Hawke's money didn't fund the entire expedition, as we're told that Bartrand had sunk a lot of money into the expedition but was coming up short. 50 Sovereigns seems to have been the minimum amount that Bartrand needed to get things actually rolling, which was how Hawke was able to bargain to become a partner. So while more money than most refugees are able to scramble together, it's hardly an impressive amount of wealth. Later in the game, we can shell out just over a third of that (15 Sovereigns) just to buy some decent pickaxes for the miners at the Bone Pit. Except for the part where it demonstrates that Merrill explicitly ignoring someone because her overwhelming curiosity got the better of her. This is one of the countless many times depicted in the games that Merrill ignores those around her trying to warn her of the danger, because she doesn't want to hear what they're saying and thinks she knows better. Her refusal to heed the advice of Marethari, who tells her to give up her fixation on the mirror and avoid the cave containing Audacity, shows clear obsessive behaviour. Marethari values Elven history just as much as Merrill does, but after the death of Tamlen (and Mahariel), she recognises that the mirror is too dangerous and some things perhaps should be forgotten. It's not that Marethari wasn't curious about the Eluvian, as in the Dalish Origin she even asked Duncan about sending hunters to study or recover the mirror. When he informs her that it had to be destroyed, because it was corrupted and could cause others to become tainted, she immediately drops the issue. Marethari recognised that it was potentially dangerous and that she had to keep her clan safe from it, which is why she argued with Merrill when she learned she'd recovered some of the broken shards. Gaider confirmed that Merrill was restoring the broken Eluvian by taking the mirror shards and placing them in a new frame. No-one was arguing that point, unless you're being deliberately pedantic and somehow don't understand that "Restore the mirror" is synonymous with "Reconstruct the Eluvian", when either Merrill uses both terms interchangeably to describe what she's doing. Likewise, no-one is arguing that Marethari wasn't wrong in her mistaken assumption the Eluvian would free the demon or that Merrill would make a deal. However when you consider how easily Merrill fell under the sway of the demon in "Night Terrors", you can understand why Marethari might have been concerned about this possibility. Yeah it does, try again. Which completely misses the point of what constitutes an obsession, the completely different goals that Hawke and Merrill have, that Merrill's behaviour is self-destructive and negatively impacts those around her, none of which apply to Hawke. Only if you don't understand what "obsession" actually means... buy a dictionary.Going into the Deep Roads only three times in one's entire life is not enough to qualify for "unhealthy behaviour". Spending several years trying to fix a busted up old mirror while neglected everyone around you and your own health, definitely is. As I mentioned several posts back, Merrill is actively lying to a romanced Hawke in that scene, made obvious by how her extremely noticeable pause about why she's going to her old house, before coming up with an explanation that she has left some things behind (such as a mirror). It's obvious that Hawke knows too, since the diplomatic response even has them say that whatever she's doing, they hope she's careful. That's not something you say to someone you're assuming is going back for some old hairbrushes and shirts, they know she's going back to work on the mirror. Sorry to disappoint you, but your bizarre headcanon doesn't prove anything either. There is no evidence of Hawke having obsessive traits, compared to the multitude we see from Merrill. You're wrong, let it go.
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