Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2019 22:17:48 GMT
Okay. The reason I was confused was that you said the Qunari reports were "hugely valuable" and didn't specify that that was headcanon. So yeah, at the point you're hiring Bull, you have no idea that Leiliana can do as well without Bull as with him. For the later choice, I'll grant that there's not as much information on how much each group is helping behind the scenes as I'd like to know, and that the Inquisitor probably knows more than Bioware's letting us. But your previous posts seem to assume without providing evidence that the Ben-Hassrath are helping a lot more than the Chargers, while the little bit of information we have seems to show Krem and the other main Chargers doing at least as much to advance the cause as the Ben-Hassrath do. And there's another concern: while you're right that the Herald doesn't necessarily know how the Qunari do things on the beach while they're hiring Bull, I'm... pretty sure at least a few hints come up during Bull's dialogue since then? If nothing else, by that point the Inquisitor probably found the book near Bull on the shore that says the Qunari will eventually try to return to take Thedas despite promising not to. So by that point the Inquisitor probably has the frame of reference for a potential Qunari backstab. The Inquisitor has to weigh how much each asset will contribute, but by that point the Inquisitor likely knows enough to realize the Qunari could be a toxic asset. If you're planning for the long game, know that the Qunari are too. You're mixing things up again. I reason, in-game, that the reports look hugely valuable to someone who has to make the decision and don't know the outcome. I then do the same again later, pointing out the actual reasons to believe this to be the case based on what we know in the game - the Qunari really do want the Inquisition to succeed and have a specific reason not to short-change you in Iron Bull's position with your inner circle -, and then headcanon that to actually be the case in my game even though it isn't explicitly stated. Again, the alternative to embracing a small 'potentially toxic down the line' Qunari asset is to forego likely useful assistance with stopping the world from ending. I don't see that that's a real dilemma so much as an excuse for vehemently pre-committed anti-Qunari player characters to act out their assumptions. Which is fine, but definitely also headcanon based on metagaming. I went through that part of the game as a Lavellan who had barely heard of Qunari the day before yesterday, and haven't the slightest clue what book you're talking about. So it seems to me that you're the one making assumptions based on your own feelings rather than in-game rationale.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Mar 19, 2019 9:51:15 GMT
Okay. The reason I was confused was that you said the Qunari reports were "hugely valuable" and didn't specify that that was headcanon. So yeah, at the point you're hiring Bull, you have no idea that Leiliana can do as well without Bull as with him. For the later choice, I'll grant that there's not as much information on how much each group is helping behind the scenes as I'd like to know, and that the Inquisitor probably knows more than Bioware's letting us. But your previous posts seem to assume without providing evidence that the Ben-Hassrath are helping a lot more than the Chargers, while the little bit of information we have seems to show Krem and the other main Chargers doing at least as much to advance the cause as the Ben-Hassrath do. And there's another concern: while you're right that the Herald doesn't necessarily know how the Qunari do things on the beach while they're hiring Bull, I'm... pretty sure at least a few hints come up during Bull's dialogue since then? If nothing else, by that point the Inquisitor probably found the book near Bull on the shore that says the Qunari will eventually try to return to take Thedas despite promising not to. So by that point the Inquisitor probably has the frame of reference for a potential Qunari backstab. The Inquisitor has to weigh how much each asset will contribute, but by that point the Inquisitor likely knows enough to realize the Qunari could be a toxic asset. If you're planning for the long game, know that the Qunari are too. You're mixing things up again. I reason, in-game, that the reports look hugely valuable to someone who has to make the decision and don't know the outcome. I then do the same again later, pointing out the actual reasons to believe this to be the case based on what we know in the game - the Qunari really do want the Inquisition to succeed and have a specific reason not to short-change you in Iron Bull's position with your inner circle -, and then headcanon that to actually be the case in my game even though it isn't explicitly stated. But if what the Qunari were giving you was hugely valuable, especially to the extent that you headcanon, you'd expect the Inquisitor to know that by the time they have to make the second decision. I'd think it would come up in conversation with Leiliana a couple times beforehand, but if nothing else, if Gatt could say "you owe us your spy network, and what we give we can take away" you'd think he'd do it when the decision and the stakes for his people became clear. Or, since Leiliana knows whatever the plot wants her to, you'd think if the Qunari really were doing all that much to help she'd warn you not to jeopardize that as you were heading to the Storm Coast. The fact that the Qunari aren't explicitly stated to be doing all that much probably means that it isn't true, and that the help from the Ben-Hassrath is just one more asset in your spymaster's arsenal. Yes, they want the Inquisition to succeed at its stated goals, but that's not evidence that they're doing all that much to help it along.You're not mentioning the fact that you're sacrificing the Chargers. You seem to be underselling how much of a dilemma that is. Sure, they knew the risks and are willing to take them, and just kneejerk saving them for emotional reasons isn't the best way of doing things. But they are useful; that much is beyond question. It's hard to say how useful they are compared to the Qunari, but the only measure we have, the Influence increases, seems to suggest that they're about the same. And you know they're working for you, and not... say trying to take over the world. Speaking of trying to take over the world, I don't think you addressed my point about Bull's dialogue. A lot of my reaction to it is based on the fact that I knew going in that we're talking about people who want to take over Southern Thedas one day, but that said: doesn't Bull explicitly state that that's the plan at one point? I can think of at least two points when something like that happens, actually: during the setup for Bull's personal quest, when he also notes that things are progressing faster than he'd always imagined they would, and once during ordinary dialogue when the Inquisitor asks what would happen to everyone in the Inner Circle if it happened. (The results are not good, btw.) That does seem to hint that the Qunari and the Inquisition don't have the same goals over the long run.Like I said, it's the one right down the beach from Iron Bull. It's kind of weird if you didn't find it, since you need to go pretty close to it to find him. That said, I don't think it's directly on the way, so if you left right after you got him instead of continuing to explore the area the way I always do, I guess you (and by extension your Inquisitor) could have missed it. If you did, it's here. I'm also not sure of your headcanon that Lavellan wouldn't have heard much about the Qunari. It would make a lot of sense if he hadn't given the Dalish lifestyle, but the storyteller in Zathrian's clan knows enough to keep up a sarcastic dialogue with Sten that compares the Qunari conquests to the human Exalted Marches. That doesn't tell us how much Lavellan's clan knows, but we know the Dalish clans share information every ten years or so. So I'd guess that all the clans know at least the broad strokes. Probably to some degree. But I think in-game rationale seems to back them up.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 10:48:26 GMT
Okay, I can't think of a way to structure a reply to all the points in this post that won't be a huge pain in the ass to both write and read. Let's just chalk this disagreement up to me being more conservative than you about how wide and well-informed my character's perspective is at any given time, and you being more appreciative of the benefits of a small mercenary company compared to an incremental increase to Leliana's awareness for the Inquisition's purposes and among its other resources.
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Post by sriep on Mar 21, 2019 10:57:26 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. Friends close enemies closer. Anyway I think of him as an unofficial ambassador.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 5, 2019 9:03:17 GMT
I personally tend to rationalize recruiting the more questionable companions in the vein of 'we need all the help we can get'  example being...Morrigan, when Alistair asks if the only reason they take her along is because 'her mother says so', one of the responses you can give him is 'we need all the help we can get' I see it the same way with Iron Bull, yes he reveals he's a spy...but at the time of recruiting him, the Herald/Inquisitor needs all the help they can find for closing the Breach/stopping Corypheus but let's take another character...Blackwall, we recruit him in the vein of him being a Warden, only to later find out he was lying about it *shrug* at the very least, Iron Bull was upfront about who he was and who he was working for that's my opinion on the subject anyway 
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Post by phoray on Apr 13, 2019 2:47:24 GMT
The only excuse I need is that the Inquisition really can't afford to turn down allies at that point. They literally can't afford them prior to Skyhold. After Skyhold and all the influx of volunteers, why would you need some random Merc company that wants good money and says they expect primo cash?
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Post by opuspace on Apr 13, 2019 3:52:18 GMT
The only excuse I need is that the Inquisition really can't afford to turn down allies at that point. They literally can't afford them prior to Skyhold. After Skyhold and all the influx of volunteers, why would you need some random Merc company that wants good money and says they expect primo cash? Say the bill will be covered by that noble who complained about everyone crowding Haven. He did insist rights to that property... At Skyhold, we can always bill them higher for drinks before deducting that from their pay 
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Post by Dukemon on Jul 28, 2019 22:36:12 GMT
I feel like ladyofnemesis. The inquisition needs any help as well the Grey Wardens needed help from Witches of the Wilds.
It helps to stop Corypheus. Unfortunately, the Inquisition is not able to kick off the Qunaris from Skyhold two years later. And each stupid Elf from each throne room in Thedas.
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Post by xerrai on Jul 30, 2019 22:44:34 GMT
I feel like ladyofnemesis. The inquisition needs any help as well the Grey Wardens needed help from Witches of the Wilds. It helps to stop Corypheus. Unfortunately, the Inquisition is not able to kick off the Qunaris from Skyhold two years later. And each stupid Elf from each throne room in Thedas. Not too surprising. Most of Thedas loves using elves as thier cheap labor source and as a means of consolidating/showcasing human superiority.
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Post by nopersdeviv on Jul 31, 2019 2:56:42 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. Honestly...just out of curiosity, after meeting Krem and hearing his offer, yeah, I would meet with and recruit Bull even after finding out he's a spy. I liked that he admitted it and I liked his reasoning for it. Also after witnessing how he was with his men and his men were with him, I liked his personality and could appreciate his leadership skills.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jul 31, 2019 11:25:23 GMT
no...  
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Post by Dukemon on Jul 31, 2019 11:29:51 GMT
I feel like ladyofnemesis. The inquisition needs any help as well the Grey Wardens needed help from Witches of the Wilds. It helps to stop Corypheus. Unfortunately, the Inquisition is not able to kick off the Qunaris from Skyhold two years later. And each stupid Elf from each throne room in Thedas. Not too surprising. Most of Thedas loves using elves as thier cheap labor source and as a means of consolidating/showcasing human superiority. Elves in Thedas are idiots. They are crying and whineing how mean the humansare. they don't think about why that is. Admitted, they all do not know either. I fully understand that they were expelled from the Dales. They deserved it with that behavior. In DA2 it feld right to kill all the elves that helped the Arishok. Only because the humans are so "mean *howl*" Idiots.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jul 31, 2019 15:30:52 GMT
Not too surprising. Most of Thedas loves using elves as thier cheap labor source and as a means of consolidating/showcasing human superiority. Elves in Thedas are idiots. They are crying and whineing how mean the humansare. they don't think about why that is. Admitted, they all do not know either. I fully understand that they were expelled from the Dales. They deserved it with that behavior. In DA2 it feld right to kill all the elves that helped the Arishok. Only because the humans are so "mean *howl*" Idiots. Ugh. You do know that we as the players mostly get the (southern) human, i. e. arrogant/racist/supremacist perspective most of the time, except for the city elf and Dalish origin story in DAO (apart from the dwarves, but you are complaining about elves anyway)? Besides, city elves in the south, Tevinter slaves regardless of race and circle mages are "taught" to be submissive/obedient to a fault. That case of collective "Stockholm syndrome" made me sick on the very first time I played DAO (City elf origin). I don't know how one could defend what happened to the Dales. How does isolating yourself and denying access to aggressive missionaries ("Your heathen gods are shit and false!") warrant cultural genocide?
Honestly, everyone in Thedas dwells on past slights: the Tevinters want to be great again, elves and dwarves dwell on their lost empires as well and the chantry-influenced south has "feel guilty for something that your forebears did" i.e. original sin as their core dogma, apart from whining about "evil mages who almost destroyed the world" and then burned their precious prophetess. The only group who does not do that at large are the Followers of the Qun. They look forward to bring their sense of "order" to the world.
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Post by Doominike on Aug 4, 2019 20:49:36 GMT
It can make sense depending on your character's personal reasons.
My Trevelyan was a rogue underworld-connected scoundrel who rebelled against her family's wishes as much as possible. She recruited the Chargers because recruiting a band of ragtags of all races is a fuck-you to southern nobility in general, in terms of PR it makes it seem the Super Special Divine Chosen One accepts all races, the reports sound pretty useful and will be screened by a talented Spymaster. Plus imagine how livid mom and dad will be if she porks one of those scary oxmen from the north.
My Adaar is basically a female version of him (qunari mercenary squad leader with varied members and 2H Warrior) and she trusts her instincts that he's a good dude despite the Qun stuff. Which since she saved the Chargers in that playthrough, she was completely right about.
My Lavellan trusted that if Leliana screened him and said it was fine, it would be fine. (It wasn't fine come Trespasser)
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 5, 2019 19:50:20 GMT
Most of my Inquisitors feel that they don't have anything to hide from the Qunari, and acting like they do wouldn't be helpful.
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Post by Quickpaw on Aug 28, 2019 1:06:24 GMT
A: Better to keep the "enemy" close and be able to monitor their activity than have them out in the wild wild world doing WHO knows what.
B: My Dalish was a bit of an oddball in his clan; fascinated by other cultures and eager to snap up every legend and story he could get his grubby little paws on (explaining his knowledge of things he should by all rights be ignorant of if not for the codex). So he knows EXACTLY what the Qunari are/what they intend, and that Bull has at this point gone native-Tal'Vashoth in all but name-and wants to help with that.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 28, 2019 7:38:47 GMT
Recruiting him in the Inquisition and giving him and his mercenaries small jobs, and exchanging controlled information makes sense. Taking Bull on high level mission, where you have no idea what kind of important magical/political/historical etc informations you might find, is stupid. He has a duty to the Qun to report anything important to his superiors. The Qunari are still an invading force, and they aren't known for being tolerant about anything powerful out of their control.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 29, 2019 13:58:51 GMT
Hm, very good question. For me, and my main character, getting as many allies as possible was very important, and you get a lot by recruiting Bull. Intel, a strong companion, the Chargers, a link to the Qunari which might be a little distasteful to some but having that open link can only be a good thing. Bull's honesty about who he is, what he does and what he and the Chargers can offer was what tipped the scales for me. The issue of the breach and Corypheus is bigger than just Ferelden. It would have been interesting from an RP perspective to have times when you tried to control what information he as given (and so what he could pass on). Also, for my 'canon' character, Alexandria, she was interested in Bull from the get go. 
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 30, 2020 11:25:55 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. He's a "diplomat"
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ClaudiaSilvestri
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Post by ClaudiaSilvestri on May 10, 2020 1:03:57 GMT
My first character was a Qunari (well, Vashoth) mage, so I naturally took a dubious/hostile approach, and if it weren't for naturally wanting to recruit everyone and see what their stories are I don't think I would have justified accepting his offer. She was also only interested in women (is there a Thedas word equivalent to lesbian?) so personal interest isn't really going to work either.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 10, 2020 1:44:43 GMT
is there a Thedas word equivalent to lesbian? There haven't been words presented for any of the orientations.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 1:57:33 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. but a spy isn't quite the same threat or danger when they come right out and tell you they're a spy.. if you know who the spy is, you can limit what information they have access to and even feed them false/misleading information to your benefit. And his skills (as both a spymaster and a fighter) and merc company would definitely be an asset to the Inquisition, especially early on in the game (when people most often recruit Bull, I assume, since its available early on) when the Inquisition is trying to get a foothold and get people to take them seriously. So it seems like the benefits outweigh the risks, and that it would therefore make sense to recruit him even apart from any meta-game perspective. That's my take on it at any rate.
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Highwayman667
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 25, 2020 15:20:52 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. If he admits that he's a spy then there' no danger. It's like a soviet agent in the 80's admitting he's a spy to the CIA. The latter would see the obvious benefits of having a new asset rather than thinking about a danger that no longer exists.
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Post by Iddy on May 25, 2020 19:29:52 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. If he admits that he's a spy then there' no danger. It's like a soviet agent in the 80's admitting he's a spy to the CIA. The latter would see the obvious benefits of having a new asset rather than thinking about a danger that no longer exists. He could help other spies sneak in, though.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 25, 2020 19:37:36 GMT
He could help other spies sneak in, though. He'd be the first suspect though It's deffinitely a risk to recruit him, but that is precisely the point. You may get a traitor, but you also get great a new ally.
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