LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on May 25, 2020 19:53:49 GMT
Hey, whether he becomes a real spy or remains a fake one is all up to the player  and damn is he a good one  I remember when Trespasser was first released and people were upset Iron Bull could betray them if they picked the Qunari Dreadnaught over the Chargers I mean, hell...what'd you think he was going to do? 
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 25, 2020 20:37:35 GMT
Since he admits to being a spy. If he admits that he's a spy then there' no danger. It's like a soviet agent in the 80's admitting he's a spy to the CIA. The latter would see the obvious benefits of having a new asset rather than thinking about a danger that no longer exists. It means he wants you to think there's no danger, either because he needs you to succeed or because he wants to be ready to backstab you after you do, and calculates that giving up whatever lead time he has before you figure it out is worth coming off as trustworthy. It doesn't mean there is no danger, and two years later it turns out there is. If by that you mean your character doesn't see a danger, fair enough. But that's not exactly what you said.
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Highwayman667
N3
 
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 25, 2020 20:50:59 GMT
It means he wants you to think there's no danger, either because he needs you to succeed or because he wants to be ready to backstab you after you do, and calculates that giving up whatever lead time he has before you figure it out is worth coming off as trustworthy. It doesn't mean there is no danger, and two years later it turns out there is. For a great movie, perhaps But it's illogical of a spy to reveal that they are one. A spy does it's job better when everyone has no idea who they are.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 25, 2020 21:41:16 GMT
It means he wants you to think there's no danger, either because he needs you to succeed or because he wants to be ready to backstab you after you do, and calculates that giving up whatever lead time he has before you figure it out is worth coming off as trustworthy. It doesn't mean there is no danger, and two years later it turns out there is. For a great movie, perhaps But it's illogical of a spy to reveal that they are one. A spy does it's job better when everyone has no idea who they are. It's illogical unless he's afraid you'll kick him out when you find out. Which is exactly the rationale he gives when you ask why he's being upfront about it. While there's some chance you won't let him in if you know he's a spy, there's an even better chance that you'll kick him out if you find out in any way other than him telling you up front. And that he does tell you doesn't mean there is no plan: merely that he thinks telling you he's a spy won't impact it... either because it's exactly what he says it is, or because he's already factored in that he's just made whatever his plan is harder in exchange for the increased protection from being summarily fired.
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Highwayman667
N3
 
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 25, 2020 22:07:51 GMT
It's illogical unless he's afraid you'll kick him out when you find out. Which is exactly the rationale he gives when you ask why he's being upfront about it. While there's some chance you won't let him in if you know he's a spy, there's an even better chance that you'll kick him out if you find out in any way other than him telling you up front. And that he does tell you doesn't mean there is no plan: merely that he thinks telling you he's a spy won't impact it... either because it's exactly what he says it is, or because he's already factored in that he's just made whatever his plan is harder in exchange for the increased protection from being summarily fired. That would be too much of a long con I think, which I don't generally think any spy would be expected to survive. Just imagine if it was a KGB agent that confessed such a thing to a CIA agent, he'd inmediately be turned into an asset, receive a rigorous background check to see if his story matches and then either receive an assignment or get shot and thrown into a ditch. Thinking realistically at least, is why I just don't believe Bull was ever a danger to the Inquisition. I think the fact that he told you upfront that he was a spy was more of a comment on his personality: the guy just doesn't give a fuck
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 26, 2020 0:26:48 GMT
It's illogical unless he's afraid you'll kick him out when you find out. Which is exactly the rationale he gives when you ask why he's being upfront about it. While there's some chance you won't let him in if you know he's a spy, there's an even better chance that you'll kick him out if you find out in any way other than him telling you up front. And that he does tell you doesn't mean there is no plan: merely that he thinks telling you he's a spy won't impact it... either because it's exactly what he says it is, or because he's already factored in that he's just made whatever his plan is harder in exchange for the increased protection from being summarily fired. That would be too much of a long con I think, which I don't generally think any spy would be expected to survive. Just imagine if it was a KGB agent that confessed such a thing to a CIA agent, he'd inmediately be turned into an asset, receive a rigorous background check to see if his story matches and then either receive an assignment or get shot and thrown into a ditch. Thinking realistically at least, is why I just don't believe Bull was ever a danger to the Inquisition. I think the fact that he told you upfront that he was a spy was more of a comment on his personality: the guy just doesn't give a fuck I have to ask, again: you seem to be phrasing this in absolute terms, so is this you thinking from your character's POV? Or is this you deciding that Bull isn't a threat on your own logic? If this is your character talking, again, fair enough: your Inquisitor could be thinking along these lines, and that is the very point of this thread. I could even make sense of the rationale, although you're a bit more cavalier about the chance that someone might try something like this than I would be. In particular, I'd caution that thinking "nobody would do that because the spy wouldn't survive" isn't the best metric for making judgement. People sacrifice agents all the time, and the Qunari mindset that a human (or humanoid) being is simply a cell of a much larger organism doesn't make it any harder for the brass to pull. If on the other hand this is your personal reading of the situation... well, I was going to put this in spoiler tags, but LadyofNemesis and I have both already alluded to it, so it turns out the Qunari do use him during their attempt at backstabbing the Inquisitor years after the Elder One dies. (Call that a long con.) Or they try to: whether or not he obeys the orders depends on whether or not you already deprogrammed him. And if he does manage to backstab the Inquisitor, it's because the Inquisitor calculated that letting an admitted spy into their organization was safe, probably for the same reason you cite.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 26, 2020 0:58:55 GMT
Or they try to: whether or not he obeys the orders depends on whether or not you already deprogrammed him. This phrasing makes it seem like he's still in the Qun years later if you save the Chargers.
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Highwayman667
N3
 
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 26, 2020 1:11:13 GMT
I have to ask, again: you seem to be phrasing this in absolute terms, so is this you thinking from your character's POV? Or is this you deciding that Bull isn't a threat on your own logic? If this is your character talking, again, fair enough: your Inquisitor could be thinking along these lines, and that is the very point of this thread. I could even make sense of the rationale, although you're a bit more cavalier about the chance that someone might try something like this than I would be. In particular, I'd caution that thinking "nobody would do that because the spy wouldn't survive" isn't the best metric for making judgement. People sacrifice agents all the time, and the Qunari mindset that a human (or humanoid) being is simply a cell of a much larger organism doesn't make it any harder for the brass to pull. If on the other hand this is your personal reading of the situation... well, I was going to put this in spoiler tags, but LadyofNemesis and I have both already alluded to it, so it turns out the Qunari do use him during their attempt at backstabbing the Inquisitor years after the Elder One dies. (Call that a long con.) Or they try to: whether or not he obeys the orders depends on whether or not you already deprogrammed him. And if he does manage to backstab the Inquisitor, it's because the Inquisitor calculated that letting an admitted spy into their organization was safe, probably for the same reason you cite. No man. I'm just telling you my personal honest opinion: He poses no danger by telling you that he's a spy. It's perfectly fine to distrust him, that's why the game is an RPG but I'm just telling you how I see things, and if we're realistically talking about spies, then no spy who is an actual danger would tell you that he is one. Why would he confess it then ? Wouldn't it be more practical to just use a better cover story if his goal was to infiltrate your organization and extract information by pretending to be a different person ? I don't know if I agree that he was ever deprogrammed by the inquisitor. It's an interesting discussion but I lean on the side that he was already deprogrammed by the time he had arrived in Southern Thedas. The character is bare as bones
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 26, 2020 1:34:48 GMT
Why would he confess it then ? I addressed this in my first post in this thread: You could be of the mind to keep your enemies close, so Bull admitting to being a spy just allows you to do that. Or, even with that honesty, and perhaps even because of it, you could also be swayed by his charm in delivering that admission. Remember, this is his job; he's supposed to be charming. He takes a gamble that the truth will win him points with the Herald/Inquisitor, while counting on his other abilities to seal the deal.
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Highwayman667
N3
 
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 26, 2020 1:41:59 GMT
Why would he confess it then ? I addressed this in my first post in this thread: You could be of the mind to keep your enemies close, so Bull admitting to being a spy just allows you to do that. Or, even with that honesty, and perhaps even because of it, you could also be swayed by his charm in delivering that admission. Remember, this is his job; he's supposed to be charming. He takes a gamble that the truth will win him points with the Herald/Inquisitor, while counting on his other abilities to seal the deal. I understand what you good folk are saying... but that is just soap opera level plotting I don't think any spy would ever admit the truth because it automatically jeopardizes their position. I interpreted the whole thing as an impression of his character: he is a very conflicted individual who might have compromised morals and integrity, a notable lack of loyalty and perhaps violent tendencies... all of which shows in Bull throughout the story.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 26, 2020 1:52:12 GMT
I understand what you good folk are saying... but that is just soap opera level plotting I don't think any spy would ever admit the truth because it automatically jeopardizes their position. I interpreted the whole thing as an impression of his character: he is a very conflicted individual who might have compromised morals and integrity, a notable lack of loyalty and perhaps violent tendencies... all of which shows in Bull throughout the story. But we see that he is fully capable and willing to play the long con if you sacrifice the Chargers, even if he is in a romantic relationship. To me it's more like you're not giving Bull credit for his craftiness.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 26, 2020 9:21:44 GMT
Or they try to: whether or not he obeys the orders depends on whether or not you already deprogrammed him. This phrasing makes it seem like he's still in the Qun years later if you save the Chargers. Well, Viddasala acts as though he is, doesn't she?
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Highwayman667
N3
 
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 26, 2020 14:24:04 GMT
But we see that he is fully capable and willing to play the long con if you sacrifice the Chargers, even if he is in a romantic relationship. To me it's more like you're not giving Bull credit for his craftiness. I probably had a different understanding of those events but, in my opinion, he was already compromised at that point. As for his craftiness, I do admit it seems like an interesting play to give an edge to the Qunari... just not one that I think a spy could reasonably perform, that's why I took him as a reliable fellow in my playthrough.
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Post by dayze on Apr 26, 2021 2:18:43 GMT
I suppose; worst to worst, you could justify it by sending Bull on suicide missions and keeping him away from anything important. That way you get the benefit of a merc' and if he dies well, there goes a Qun-Spy so not something to get all that broken up about.
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Cyberstrike
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is wanting to have some fun!
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 30, 2021 13:57:27 GMT
The only excuse I need is that the Inquisition really can't afford to turn down allies at that point.
That is pretty much why I recruit him and plus you also get the Bull's Chargers.
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