Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 19:08:00 GMT
You do know that whatever you're looking into is harvesting entire colonies of people... and yet you're suggesting Shepard might attempt to sort it out without any sort of team backing him/her up. He/she can say right away in the first conversation with TIM that he/she needs "a really good team." He/she can also suggest that he/she prefers to use his/her old team from the first Normandy, but is told by TIM that all of them are unavailable... so he/she takes the risk and sets out to acquire a new team. It makes perfect sense to me.
Vigil clearly tells us the mini-Relay only works in one direction (start at 15:27 in the video linked below) and clearly tells us that the scientists who set it up on the Citadel probably died a horrible death there as a result.
Given Codex descriptions of how Relays work, a one-way relay should not logically exist... yet, we have to accept Vigil just saying one does just because it was a prototype. Not explained, therefore, and a plot hole... an unnecessary one because it being one-way serves no real purpose in advancing the story.
Vigil's conversation reveals yet another idiocy. This time abut the large Citadel relay that leads to dark space. Vigil says that the Reapers left sealing the Citadel Mass Relay behind them. Since the keepers were "key" to opening it again, it appears they left the house, locked the door while leaving their keys inside the house. They locked themselves out. It would have made more sense for uber intelligent super machines to have retained the keys in their own pockets... ie. It would make more sense that the relay was only able to be unsealed from the Reaper side. They could have then gained access to the Citadel at any time they wished without relying on any MW species - organic or machine - to let them back in.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 0:03:34 GMT
Right. There's no purpose in having Vigil not know what was on the other side of the Conduit, since in practice there's no surprise; what happened there is exactly what Vigil guessed happened. In ME1, anyway-- not knowing did open up some space for ME3 if anyone had wanted to use it. If the scientists had discovered the Catalyst.... but let's not get into fanwankery.
I'm still wondering how the Conduit passes objects through the Citadel's hull and solid rock. That's not something mass relays should be able to do.
Going a little meta here, but this whole recent line of debate is very familiar to me. I've been seeing threads like this ever since ME2 shipped. YMMV, but I've always agreed that ME2 and ME3 are quite a bit pulpier and inclined more towards science fantasy than ME1 was. The question is what that actually means for the individual player.
Players can be divided into three groups, according to how high their standards are for plotting, SF plausibility, and so forth . (Note that there are several different values here, and I don't think a player's tastes regarding them are very tightly correlated.) A player with low standards in these areas won't care about the difference, and may not even notice it. A player with high standards who stuck around for the series rather than bailing after ME1 accepts the series as good pulpy fun without taking it particularly seriously. (Sort of how I can love both Riverdale and Watchmen; I grade them on different scales because they're different shows doing different things.)
The people with problems are those in the middle. If your standards are in the middle, than ME2 may be some below some threshold of -- believability, perhaps? -- that ME1 passed for you. Since the whole series failed for me, ME2 scoring worse than ME1 is a nonissue.
For me. Again, YMMV.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 0:56:41 GMT
Right. There's no purpose in having Vigil not know what was on the other side of the Conduit, since in practice there 's no surprise; what happened there is exactly what Vigil guessed happened. In ME1, anyway-- not knowing did open up some space for ME3 if anyone had wanted to use it. If the scientists had discovered the Catalyst.... but let's not get into fanwankery. I'm still wondering how the Conduit passes objects through the Citadel's hull and solid rock. That's not something mass relays should be able to do. Going a little meta here, but this whole recent line of debate is very familiar to me. I've been seeing threads like this ever since ME2 shipped. YMMV, but I've always agreed that ME2 and ME3 are quite a bit pulpier and inclined more towards science fantasy than ME1 was. The question is what that actually means for the individual player. Players can be divided into three groups, according to how high their standards are for plotting, SF plausibility, and so forth . (Note that there are several different values here, and I don't think a player's tastes regarding them are very tightly correlated.) A player with low standards in these areas won't care about the difference, and may not even notice it. A player with high standards who stuck around for the series rather than bailing after ME1 accepts the series as good pulpy fun without taking it particularly seriously. (Sort of how I can love both Riverdale and Watchmen; I grade them on different scales because they're different shows doing different things.) The people with problems are those in the middle. If your standards are in the middle, than ME2 may be some below some threshold of -- believability, perhaps? -- that ME1 passed for you. Since the whole series failed for me, ME2 scoring worse than ME1 is a nonissue. For me. Again, YMMV. Never mind the Citadel's hull, how do relays deal with planets and asteroids in the path of the ship they are propelling huge distances across the galaxy? At the speeds were talking about, even minute particles of space dust would breach the hulls of ships if they were to actually collide with them en route. So, I basically reason that a mass relay moves all mass in the conduit's trajectory, both large and small into a different dimension of space/time. It's simply not there in the time that the vessel passes through and then it returns the mass to wherever it was before the conduit was active. The whole thing happens so fast that the mass being manipulated by the relay is "unaware" that it has spent an unbelievably small amont of time in another dimension.
The thing is that the Wiki says this mass-free corridor is created between the two relays. The corridor is not created by one relay, but both of them working together. So, how is a mass-free space corridor only opened in one direction? Mass-free is mass-free... whatever should be able to pass through a mass-free corridor in either direction.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 2:49:19 GMT
Well, if you're effectively massless, collisions shouldn't be damaging -- you'd just bounce off of whatever you hit. Zero mass, zero energy. But this means that you could be bounced right out of the relay corridor, which would kill you when you revert to the Einsteinian physics regime. And if you weren't killed, you'd be stranded.
I think we do have to go with your interpretation of relay travel despite it not being congruent with the way the techs are explained in the Codex. We could handwave away relay travel with some sort of field around the corridor screening out any possible collision, and relays simply not activating if there's something in the way, but the operation of the Conduit is established in-universe fact.
|
|
inherit
10735
0
Jul 17, 2022 15:59:28 GMT
362
sassafrassa
292
January 2019
sassafrassa
|
Post by sassafrassa on Dec 10, 2019 5:25:10 GMT
You do know that whatever you're looking into is harvesting entire colonies of people... and yet you're suggesting Shepard might attempt to sort it out without any sort of team backing him/her up. No, that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that for all Shepard knows he needs an army, not a team. If he is going to pick specific people then he needs people with broad, specific skills, that can help him understand his enemy. Mordin and Okeer fit this, but the rest do not. We already have soldiers, biotics, and engineers. It's a lot of time and effort to go after these other squadmates when lives are already in jeopardy, recruitment is a violent affair, and we don't actually know if we need these people or what we might need them for. All I'm asking for here is that the plot include a bit more logic from TIM or Shepard or both. I explained this earlier. A dozen commandos is not wide coverage for an unknown this large. Shepard needs more information to more plausibly decide on the team he needs to assemble. Fine, so the Conduit is one way. Why does this matter to the plot? How does it affect the plot? If it doesn't affect the plot in a large way then it is trivial. I stress again, you had better start questioning why Shepard never takes a crap. You are straining really hard here to pull ME1 down to ME2's level and it is very dishonest. None of the rest is relevant to ME1's plot either and is not a plot hole. Next will you explain to me how implausible it is that humans, batarians, and asari can all wear the same armor? How convenient it is that all the species are roughly proportioned the same and thus able to use the same doorways? This is not a clever line of thought. Do you know why the Reapers utilized a slave race to run the Citadel instead of doing it themselves? There'd be no game otherwise. There is no Mass Effect game if the Reapers just employed real hardcore real-world logic and made a fool proof system. You understand? The narrative is structured to tell a specific story. Perhaps different stories could have been told if things were put together differently, but they'd surely have different themes. Reapers use Keepers as slaves. They regard geth as mere tools. Just like Saren uses the krogan, rachni, and Thorian, who in turn used the colonists on Zhu's Hope. Saren decides to live as a slave to avoid death, but Shepard would rather die. Notice the interconnected theme here? Notice as well the irony of Sovereign gloating about how organic life only develops along the technological lines the Reapers lay out for them, yet it was the Protheans surpassing the trappings of the Mass Relay network, by beginning to master it for themselves, that has enabled Shepard to thwart the Reapers now? There's a point to all of it. What point does ME2 have? Outside of the loyalty missions, that is. Those are pretty good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 9:34:35 GMT
Well, if you're effectively massless, collisions shouldn't be damaging -- you'd just bounce off of whatever you hit. Zero mass, zero energy. But this means that you could be bounced right out of the relay corridor, which would kill you when you revert to the Einsteinian physics regime. And if you weren't killed, you'd be stranded. I think we do have to go with your interpretation of relay travel despite it not being congruent with the way the techs are explained in the Codex. We could handwave away relay travel with some sort of field around the corridor screening out any possible collision, and relays simply not activating if there's something in the way, but the operation of the Conduit is established in-universe fact. The codex say "virtually mass-free corridor... that means that all the mass in the corridor is affected, not the ship itself. So, I would disagree that "you're effectively massless" and would bounce off mass in the corridor and say the mass in the corridor is "moved" out of the way of the ship that is transiting the corridor. Since the corridor could transect planets, asteroids, and stations to get the ship across galactic space (like the jump from Ilos to the Citadel, which is a huge distance across the galaxy), we have to assume that the mass the corridor "removes" is unaware of it being affected by a corridor.
I agree, we have to accept that the Conduit exists as one-way in universe. It's not explained how it exists nor is there really a purpose for it to exist that way, so it is a plot hole. The plot holes exist in all three games. Keep in mind, though, that I'm one here who has been advocating that nothing about the OT be changed, including (but not limited to) all the endings. Lots of cherished art works aren't perfect, but it would be a loss to see them changed to be perfect. They reflect the times in which they were created and the very human people who created them. Preserving that is important. For all it's flaws, Mass Effect generates thought and discussion about lots of different issues... and that makes it matter more than something that is perfect. Striving for improvement is something Bioware needs to do going forward. That's why I'm also in favor of now just continuing with Andromeda and improving on that story as it moves forward. It has the potential to become a great story. They shouldn't mire their creativity in "do-overs."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 9:36:45 GMT
You do know that whatever you're looking into is harvesting entire colonies of people... and yet you're suggesting Shepard might attempt to sort it out without any sort of team backing him/her up. No, that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that for all Shepard knows he needs an army, not a team. If he is going to pick specific people then he needs people with broad, specific skills, that can help him understand his enemy. Mordin and Okeer fit this, but the rest do not. We already have soldiers, biotics, and engineers. It's a lot of time and effort to go after these other squadmates when lives are already in jeopardy, recruitment is a violent affair, and we don't actually know if we need these people or what we might need them for. All I'm asking for here is that the plot include a bit more logic from TIM or Shepard or both. I explained this earlier. A dozen commandos is not wide coverage for an unknown this large. Shepard needs more information to more plausibly decide on the team he needs to assemble. Fine, so the Conduit is one way. Why does this matter to the plot? How does it affect the plot? If it doesn't affect the plot in a large way then it is trivial. I stress again, you had better start questioning why Shepard never takes a crap. You are straining really hard here to pull ME1 down to ME2's level and it is very dishonest. None of the rest is relevant to ME1's plot either and is not a plot hole. Next will you explain to me how implausible it is that humans, batarians, and asari can all wear the same armor? How convenient it is that all the species are roughly proportioned the same and thus able to use the same doorways? This is not a clever line of thought. Do you know why the Reapers utilized a slave race to run the Citadel instead of doing it themselves? There'd be no game otherwise. There is no Mass Effect game if the Reapers just employed real hardcore real-world logic and made a fool proof system. You understand? The narrative is structured to tell a specific story. Perhaps different stories could have been told if things were put together differently, but they'd surely have different themes. Reapers use Keepers as slaves. They regard geth as mere tools. Just like Saren uses the krogan, rachni, and Thorian, who in turn used the colonists on Zhu's Hope. Saren decides to live as a slave to avoid death, but Shepard would rather die. Notice the interconnected theme here? Notice as well the irony of Sovereign gloating about how organic life only develops along the technological lines the Reapers lay out for them, yet it was the Protheans surpassing the trappings of the Mass Relay network, by beginning to master it for themselves, that has enabled Shepard to thwart the Reapers now? There's a point to all of it. What point does ME2 have? Outside of the loyalty missions, that is. Those are pretty good. Shepard is a Spectre - special ops operative. They don't go in with an army. They infiltrate with a small team. At least in ME2, he/she doesn't recruit people until AFTER he/she has a ship to recruit them to. In ME1, Shepard goes about recruiting Garrus and/or Wrex and possibly even Tali (depending on dialogue) before he's even a spectre and without any Alliance-given authority to add aliens to Anderson's ship. (Aliens with no special insights to offer beyond what information they had already shared and no special abilities uniquely needed to capture Saren). So, ME1 has at least as big a plot problem as ME2 in that regard. In addition, ME1 adds to the mistake because shortly after becoming a spectre and before knowing he/she even has a ship, Shepard can also commit to finding Kohoku's missing marines and finding Garoth's missing brother in the Traverse... without again having the authority to tell Anderson where to fly Normandy... and then he goes on to put a rather naive but potentially disloyal person (the daughter of one of the villains) also on his team just to keep her "safe" from her mother's henchmen.
As a second book to a Trilogy, ME2 is weak. It simply does not advance the Reaper story. I've said that before. As a standalone story, it's not bad (Shepard dying and being resurrected aside). It's based on "The Dirty Dozen" which is a best-selling novel in its day and inspired the film of the same name. It has a great ending mission and the combat is much improved over ME1.
I consider ME2 to be more of a sidequel entry. Sidequels by definition do not advance the plot of the story to which it is a sidequel. It's a different story that deviates from the main. It's ME3 that did all the work trying to reconnect the two previous stories in the Trilogy to the third part. For the most part, it doesn't do a bad job of that by making Cerberus a faction that gets drawn in by the Reapers to do their dirty work undermining the efforts of the Alliance. Still, it had no chance to be "perfect" because the "damage" to a credible Trilogy was done already by ME1 lacking the foundation to go for three games and ME2 deviating into a side story.
IF they do a remake of the Trilogy (and I hope they don't), they will likely condense the OT into a single game. That being the case, I would like to see the ending story style of ME2 moved to the end of the OT. That's where a suicide mission belongs if they are producing a cohesive, single story. You don't put your climax in the middle of the book. The recruitment of the "team" should happen when Shepard first becomes a spectre. Shepard should not just inherit an Alliance crew and an Alliance ship, as he did in ME1. As a spectre, he/she should not spend a bunch of time cleaning up Alliance operations, which is what all of ME1's side missions are. It should have been the Council giving Shepard "spectre-related" sidequests... missions that advanced new leads on finding Saren. People rave about how well the ME1 sidequests are connected to the story... but they aren't. It's only ME2 that connects the Cerberus ones... and Shepard himself/herself hand waves those at the start of ME2 with "I wiped out my share of Cerberus projects when I was a spectre." (or similar line). However, there are people here advocating that Bioware now do a sidequel to the OT rather than continue with a "book 2" of Andromeda, which would certainly not advance the OT story any more than ME2 did.
If the do decide to continue the franchise in Andromeda (and I hope they do), then they should continue with the story they've conceived when they started with ME:A and not allow fan reaction to derail them from their original plans. If they allow themselves to be derailed, we will likely wind up with the same sort of problems with ME:A2 that you have with ME2. It will deviate from the main story... and if that game is liked there will be calls to make the Andromeda story into a Trilogy... which means ME:A3 would then face the same issues ME3 did... having to bring together two different stories into a singular conclusion. With the OT, it was that they never had any plan to do an actual Trilogy when they made ME1 and ME2 was just another game with the same main character (in the tradition of a lot of other franchises). With ME:A, I suspect they might have an idea of how they want to continue with an ongoing story in multiple parts. I think they should stick with that plan and we'll ultimate get a better Trilogy (or series) from a literary perspective than we would if they allow themselves to just be pushed and shoved in disparate directions by fan reaction.
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 10, 2019 15:26:08 GMT
Yes an assortment of commandos with diverse talents that can be utilized to cover shortcomings or unexpected situations to ensure they have the best possible chance on the mission. I am honestly surprised at your inability to grasp this simple concept given it is literally the entire concept of the Boy Scouts. Be Prepared. My point is, Shepard is not well prepared in general. For a Commando mission? Yes, but what if a commando team was not enough? What if a fleet or ground army was necessary? It's contrived. Yes because it is impossible to 100% prepare for unknown events. Something they make clear several times in game about how they have no idea what will be beyond the Omega Relay. The same plot conveniences happen to them as happens to them in ME1 and ME3 because this is a video game and you are controlling the protagonist with a god level power ability. The same plot conveniences continue to happen in ME:A as well because it is a trend of the series.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 15:42:41 GMT
Well, if you're effectively massless, collisions shouldn't be damaging -- you'd just bounce off of whatever you hit. Zero mass, zero energy. But this means that you could be bounced right out of the relay corridor, which would kill you when you revert to the Einsteinian physics regime. And if you weren't killed, you'd be stranded. I think we do have to go with your interpretation of relay travel despite it not being congruent with the way the techs are explained in the Codex. We could handwave away relay travel with some sort of field around the corridor screening out any possible collision, and relays simply not activating if there's something in the way, but the operation of the Conduit is established in-universe fact. The codex say "virtually mass-free corridor... that means that all the mass in the corridor is affected, not the ship itself. So, I would disagree that "you're effectively massless" and would bounce off mass in the corridor and say the mass in the corridor is "moved" out of the way of the ship that is transiting the corridor. Since the corridor could transect planets, asteroids, and stations to get the ship across galactic space (like the jump from Ilos to the Citadel, which is a huge distance across the galaxy), we have to assume that the mass the corridor "removes" is unaware of it being affected by a corridor. Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of the Bergenholm drive in E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series. Bio blatantly ripped this off, but inconsistently. When a Bergenolm-drive ship goes "free," every object under the effect of the field becomes massless relative to each other, not just relative to stuff outside the field. So if you try to throw a ball, it stops moving the moment it leaves your hand. No inertia. Bizarre environments like this aren't part of the MEU.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 15:55:52 GMT
No, that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that for all Shepard knows he needs an army, not a team. If he is going to pick specific people then he needs people with broad, specific skills, that can help him understand his enemy. Mordin and Okeer fit this, but the rest do not. We already have soldiers, biotics, and engineers. It's a lot of time and effort to go after these other squadmates when lives are already in jeopardy, recruitment is a violent affair, and we don't actually know if we need these people or what we might need them for. All I'm asking for here is that the plot include a bit more logic from TIM or Shepard or both. I explained this earlier. A dozen commandos is not wide coverage for an unknown this large. Shepard needs more information to more plausibly decide on the team he needs to assemble. Note that Legion, Miranda and Jacob come free, while Jack, Zaeed, and Kasumi aren't supposed to take any time or trouble to recruit. (Not true for Jack, but Shepard doesn't know that going in, and by the time she does she can't back out.) Mordin and Okeer are necessary, as you admit. And in the other cases the difficulty of recruiting the squadmate isn't known before Shepard starts going after them.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 16:03:40 GMT
My point is, Shepard is not well prepared in general. For a Commando mission? Yes, but what if a commando team was not enough? What if a fleet or ground army was necessary? It's contrived. Yes because it is impossible to 100% prepare for unknown events. Something they make clear several times in game about how they have no idea what will be beyond the Omega Relay. The same plot conveniences happen to them as happens to them in ME1 and ME3 because this is a video game and you are controlling the protagonist with a god level power ability. The same plot conveniences continue to happen in ME:A as well because it is a trend of the series. Let's say a fleet and/or army was necessary. What then? Leaving aside that there's no actual way to deploy them against the Collectors since there's no way to get them past the Omega-4 relay until someone figures out how to mass-produce Reaper IFF devices. A commando team is useful for producing actionable intelligence, isn't it? If Shepard's mission is intelligence-gathering right up to the point where they discover that all the Collectors have is one vulnerable base, nothing really changes. (I see why sassafrassa keeps playing the "it doesn't really matter" card. This is easy.)
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Dec 10, 2019 16:28:20 GMT
In the end, what would probably happen is that a few generations would go by, and the ones born into a universe filled with these immortal starship things will probably not have any particularly strong feelings, at least so long as the reapers just meander about really far away, removed from most facets of life. It's the long-lived species like the krogan and asari that will probably be pissed off for ages. Would the krogan actually be pissed off? Assuming the genophage really was cured -- endgame slides suggest that the krogan are a nonfactor in the future if the cure was sabotaged -- the Reaper War turned out pretty good for the krogan. No substantial damage to their territory, a really good fight, and rewards for fighting it. You just never know with those battle toads. The idea of reaper overlords alone might have some flirt with the idea of wanting to blow them out of the sky on sight, even if they're unlikely to be able to do it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 16:32:57 GMT
Yes because it is impossible to 100% prepare for unknown events. Something they make clear several times in game about how they have no idea what will be beyond the Omega Relay. The same plot conveniences happen to them as happens to them in ME1 and ME3 because this is a video game and you are controlling the protagonist with a god level power ability. The same plot conveniences continue to happen in ME:A as well because it is a trend of the series. Let's say a fleet and/or army was necessary. What then? Leaving aside that there's no actual way to deploy them against the Collectors since there's no way to get them past the Omega-4 relay until someone figures out how to mass-produce Reaper IFF devices. A commando team is useful for producing actionable intelligence, isn't it? If Shepard's mission is intelligence-gathering right up to the point where they discover that all the Collectors have is one vulnerable base, nothing really changes. (I see why sassafrassa keeps playing the "it doesn't really matter" card. This is easy.) Except when it comes to this particular point, sassafrassa is the one playing the 'it matters card"... and yet everything that ME1 does similar does apparently doesn't matter.
I agree with you BTW... There is really no way Shepard can even speculate about getting an army through the Omega 4 relay. A small team is the best he/she is going to be able to muster for the task regardless of how many bases the Collectors might have hidden there.
If Shepard had found, once getting through the relay, that he faced truly impossible odds and perhaps even discovered another relay leading to the Reaper home base in "dark space", it would have left ME2 in a cliffhanger and provided a more natural lead into ME3... where Shepard goes back, but not to turn himself/herself in. Instead, he/she starts trying to convince the Alliance and the Council to follow him/her with an army to take out the Reaper home base.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 16:33:58 GMT
KaiserShep: Just so you know, I'm going to shamelessly rip off "battle toads" from now on.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Dec 10, 2019 16:34:17 GMT
Right. There's no purpose in having Vigil not know what was on the other side of the Conduit, since in practice there's no surprise; what happened there is exactly what Vigil guessed happened. In ME1, anyway-- not knowing did open up some space for ME3 if anyone had wanted to use it. If the scientists had discovered the Catalyst.... but let's not get into fanwankery. I'm still wondering how the Conduit passes objects through the Citadel's hull and solid rock. That's not something mass relays should be able to do. Going a little meta here, but this whole recent line of debate is very familiar to me. I've been seeing threads like this ever since ME2 shipped. YMMV, but I've always agreed that ME2 and ME3 are quite a bit pulpier and inclined more towards science fantasy than ME1 was. The question is what that actually means for the individual player. Players can be divided into three groups, according to how high their standards are for plotting, SF plausibility, and so forth . (Note that there are several different values here, and I don't think a player's tastes regarding them are very tightly correlated.) A player with low standards in these areas won't care about the difference, and may not even notice it. A player with high standards who stuck around for the series rather than bailing after ME1 accepts the series as good pulpy fun without taking it particularly seriously. (Sort of how I can love both Riverdale and Watchmen; I grade them on different scales because they're different shows doing different things.) The people with problems are those in the middle. If your standards are in the middle, than ME2 may be some below some threshold of -- believability, perhaps? -- that ME1 passed for you. Since the whole series failed for me, ME2 scoring worse than ME1 is a nonissue. For me. Again, YMMV. Is the Presidium entirely enclosed? I always thought it was mostly held in by mass effect fields rather than being a solid ring, much like the rest of the wards. Edit: I recall now that Shepard used the Conduit while the Citadel was fully closed. Welp, lore be damned. In any case, I'm fuzzy on the timeline of the Conduit's construction. Like, did the Protheans just make the pathway to Ilos just to research recreating the technology, and it just turned out to be a happy coincidence that it would come in handy? They would've had to make it a long time before the actual invasion,.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 16:36:34 GMT
I don't think they ever established why the research base was on Ilos in the first place.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Dec 10, 2019 16:38:16 GMT
I don't think they ever established why the research base was on Ilos in the first place. Plus, it's a good thing that the Keepers never decided that this out of place monument thing was totally not supposed to be there and dismantled it. Yet, they'll keep rearranging people's offices.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 16:41:37 GMT
Right. There's no purpose in having Vigil not know what was on the other side of the Conduit, since in practice there's no surprise; what happened there is exactly what Vigil guessed happened. In ME1, anyway-- not knowing did open up some space for ME3 if anyone had wanted to use it. If the scientists had discovered the Catalyst.... but let's not get into fanwankery. I'm still wondering how the Conduit passes objects through the Citadel's hull and solid rock. That's not something mass relays should be able to do. Going a little meta here, but this whole recent line of debate is very familiar to me. I've been seeing threads like this ever since ME2 shipped. YMMV, but I've always agreed that ME2 and ME3 are quite a bit pulpier and inclined more towards science fantasy than ME1 was. The question is what that actually means for the individual player. Players can be divided into three groups, according to how high their standards are for plotting, SF plausibility, and so forth . (Note that there are several different values here, and I don't think a player's tastes regarding them are very tightly correlated.) A player with low standards in these areas won't care about the difference, and may not even notice it. A player with high standards who stuck around for the series rather than bailing after ME1 accepts the series as good pulpy fun without taking it particularly seriously. (Sort of how I can love both Riverdale and Watchmen; I grade them on different scales because they're different shows doing different things.) The people with problems are those in the middle. If your standards are in the middle, than ME2 may be some below some threshold of -- believability, perhaps? -- that ME1 passed for you. Since the whole series failed for me, ME2 scoring worse than ME1 is a nonissue. For me. Again, YMMV. Is the Presidium entirely enclosed? I always thought it was mostly held in by mass effect fields rather than being a solid ring, much like the rest of the wards. In any case, I'm fuzzy on the timeline of the Conduit's construction. Like, did the Protheans just make the pathway to Ilos just to research recreating the technology, and it just turned out to be a happy coincidence that it would come in handy? They would've had to make it a long time before the actual invasion,. Vigil's conversation is the only source Shepard has... so, yeah, the timing of it and it's originally intended purpose is fuzzy. I would say though that he is implying that they worked on it after the invasion since Ilos was spared and then somehow used the one on Ilos to transport themselves and the mini-relay that sits on the Citadel to that location... explaining why Vigil would assume they wouldn't find food or water on the Citadel to keep themselves alive.
It is still at odds with how relays work though since then they would be using a mass-free corridor without a second relay in place. It would perhaps be an excuse as to why, for the scientists, it's a one-way relay... but then one would think, since they did install the other on the Citadel, that it would then be active both ways. Basically, the concept doesn't fit really well no matter how you slice it.
It would also open a whole can of worms, since it would mean you could create relay pairs by simply building one relay, activating it and transporting the mate through the corridor created by the first one and open up a new location without ever having been there. For example, one could then have built a relay in the Milky Way, pointed it an Andromeda, transported it's mate to Andromeda through the corridor instanteously, and opened up the Andromeda Galaxy just that easily. (Come to think of it... would that have been a "lore-friendly" way to get the franchise to Andromeda... using Prothean-design, one-way relay technology based on the mini-relay prototype?)
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Dec 10, 2019 16:52:27 GMT
Is the Presidium entirely enclosed? I always thought it was mostly held in by mass effect fields rather than being a solid ring, much like the rest of the wards. In any case, I'm fuzzy on the timeline of the Conduit's construction. Like, did the Protheans just make the pathway to Ilos just to research recreating the technology, and it just turned out to be a happy coincidence that it would come in handy? They would've had to make it a long time before the actual invasion,. Vigil's conversation is the only source Shepard has... so, yeah, the timing of it and it's originally intended purpose is fuzzy. I would say though that he is implying that they worked on it after the invasion since Ilos was spared and then somehow used the one on Ilos to transport themselves and the mini-relay that sits on the Citadel to that location... explaining why Vigil would assume they wouldn't find food or water on the Citadel to keep themselves alive.
It is still at odds with how relays work though since then they would be using a mass-free corridor without a second relay in place. It would perhaps be an excuse as to why, for the scientists, it's a one-way relay... but then one would think, since they did install the other on the Citadel, that it would then be active both ways. Basically, the concept doesn't fit really well no matter how you slice it.
It would also open a whole can of worms, since it would mean you could create relay pairs by simply building one relay, activating it and transporting the mate through the corridor created by the first one and open up a new location without ever having been there. For example, one could then have built a relay in the Milky Way, pointed it an Andromeda, trnasported it's mate to Andromeda through the corridor instanteously, and opened up the Andromeda Galaxy just that easily.
But then, even if the mini-relay was a one way trip, I have to wonder why they were unable to reactivate the network while they were able to successfully tinker with the keepers to prevent the reapers' return.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
Deleted
0
Sept 28, 2024 16:19:28 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 17:06:54 GMT
Vigil's conversation is the only source Shepard has... so, yeah, the timing of it and it's originally intended purpose is fuzzy. I would say though that he is implying that they worked on it after the invasion since Ilos was spared and then somehow used the one on Ilos to transport themselves and the mini-relay that sits on the Citadel to that location... explaining why Vigil would assume they wouldn't find food or water on the Citadel to keep themselves alive.
It is still at odds with how relays work though since then they would be using a mass-free corridor without a second relay in place. It would perhaps be an excuse as to why, for the scientists, it's a one-way relay... but then one would think, since they did install the other on the Citadel, that it would then be active both ways. Basically, the concept doesn't fit really well no matter how you slice it.
It would also open a whole can of worms, since it would mean you could create relay pairs by simply building one relay, activating it and transporting the mate through the corridor created by the first one and open up a new location without ever having been there. For example, one could then have built a relay in the Milky Way, pointed it an Andromeda, trnasported it's mate to Andromeda through the corridor instanteously, and opened up the Andromeda Galaxy just that easily.
But then, even if the mini-relay was a one way trip, I have to wonder why they were unable to reactivate the network while they were able to successfully tinker with the keepers to prevent the reapers' return. Agree... it's a plot hole.
|
|
inherit
10735
0
Jul 17, 2022 15:59:28 GMT
362
sassafrassa
292
January 2019
sassafrassa
|
Post by sassafrassa on Dec 10, 2019 17:44:14 GMT
But then, even if the mini-relay was a one way trip, I have to wonder why they were unable to reactivate the network while they were able to successfully tinker with the keepers to prevent the reapers' return. Their race was already extinct by that point. In fact, the relay network was probably already unlocked by that point as the trap had been reset. The same plot conveniences happen to them as happens to them in ME1 and ME3 because this is a video game and you are controlling the protagonist with a god level power ability. No they don't. Shepard has a small army of support on Virmire. He is not alone on Feros or Eden Prime. The Normandy is well established as an infiltration vessel; that is it's purpose. The mission Shepard has is to find and kill or apprehend Saren. Ilos is a Prothean world as of yet uncovered. That's a much clearer goal at the end than the Suicide Mission is. Note that Legion, Miranda and Jacob come free, while Jack, Zaeed, and Kasumi aren't supposed to take any time or trouble to recruit. (Not true for Jack, but Shepard doesn't know that going in, and by the time she does she can't back out.) Mordin and Okeer are necessary, as you admit. And in the other cases the difficulty of recruiting the squadmate isn't known before Shepard starts going after them.[/quote] Even if you just 'bought' Jack like you were supposed to she'd still be a huge risk. Reading her mission profile why would you want to incorporate this unstable element into your crew? When I played for the first time she was the last one I grabbed for that very roleplaying reason. Why do I want a violent convict on my crew? Let's say a fleet and/or army was necessary. What then? In that case you'd better have a fleet. Even if you can't invade you could do other things with it. However this is not the point. You have missed the point. The goal of Mass Effect 2 is a daring commando raid in an enemy stronghold to cut the head off the snake. So we don't write the story to have Shepard need a fleet. Instead, we right the story so that Shepard knows he is putting together a crack commando team for a commando raid. Get it? To do this at some point in the game, before Shepard goes through the relay, ideally perhaps just after the Collector Ship mission, the team learns of the Collector Base. They go into this alone, but not blind. Blind is stupid. I'll go ahead and lay out how this ought to have been done. >TIM offers a list of choice recruits >Shepard obliges >Shepard or someone close to him notices that these recruitment suggestions are oddly specific >Shepard asks TIM about it but he dodges the question by pointing out a broad team is good sense >After the Collector Ship or IFF EDI determines that only a space station could logically reside in the highly unstable and dangerous environment of the galactic core >The datamining of the Collector Ship corroborates this >Once unshackled EDI has access to some of TIM's classified Collector files and determines that he had deduced this years ago because he directed Cerberus to work with the Collectors in the past, using the opportunity to collect intelligence on them >Confronted again, TIM finally admits he "made deals with the devil for the benefit of humanity" and has thus known all along roughly what Shepard would be up against. See? Now the plot makes sense. We get additional characterization and backstory. TIM is more of a morally grey mastermind and the plot is a more logical one. After all the game takes inspiration from "The Dirty Dozen". In that film a crack team of military criminal types are sent on a suicide mission into Nazi occupied territory. They don't do this blind though; they have a specific mission, train for it, and carry it out. They know ahead of time where the mission will take place, what they need to do, and how they'll carry it out.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Member is Online
Sept 28, 2024 16:13:35 GMT
25,467
themikefest
15,349
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Dec 10, 2019 18:28:57 GMT
But then, even if the mini-relay was a one way trip, I have to wonder why they were unable to reactivate the network while they were able to successfully tinker with the keepers to prevent the reapers' return. Maybe they didn't have to. The reapers might have activated the network before going home. They might have done it so that the next cycle could use the relays to find the Citadel.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 20:33:53 GMT
Let's say a fleet and/or army was necessary. What then? In that case you'd better have a fleet. Even if you can't invade you could do other things with it. However this is not the point. You have missed the point. I didn't miss your point, I was making a different one. I was proposing a slight rewrite where the mission isn't to "cut off the head of the snake " until after reaching the Collector Base, since until that point there's no reason to know that cutting off the head of the snake is even feasible. So a commando raid like you propose, but a different goal. Honestly, I thought that was pretty clear. But I guess not.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Sept 16, 2024 15:46:24 GMT
9,324
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,875
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 10, 2019 20:42:29 GMT
Is the Presidium entirely enclosed? I always thought it was mostly held in by mass effect fields rather than being a solid ring, much like the rest of the wards. In any case, I'm fuzzy on the timeline of the Conduit's construction. Like, did the Protheans just make the pathway to Ilos just to research recreating the technology, and it just turned out to be a happy coincidence that it would come in handy? They would've had to make it a long time before the actual invasion,. Vigil's conversation is the only source Shepard has... so, yeah, the timing of it and it's originally intended purpose is fuzzy. I would say though that he is implying that they worked on it after the invasion since Ilos was spared and then somehow used the one on Ilos to transport themselves and the mini-relay that sits on the Citadel to that location... explaining why Vigil would assume they wouldn't find food or water on the Citadel to keep themselves alive. I dunno -- if a relay can work one-way with nothing at the terminus, then why is there anything on the Citadel in Shepard's time? What's the point of bringing the thing if you can get there without it? I think we have to keep paired relays as a real constraint. The FTL telescope was bad enough. My take is that the Conduit terminus was on the Citadel because the Protheans were going to stage some sort of propaganda event. Can't have actually gotten around to staging it or the Reapers would have known about it, although how they missed a functioning relay on the Presidum is something it's best not to think about.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 12,307 Likes: 20,288
inherit
2309
0
Sept 28, 2024 14:03:08 GMT
20,288
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,307
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 10, 2019 21:12:01 GMT
Let's say a fleet and/or army was necessary. What then? Leaving aside that there's no actual way to deploy them against the Collectors since there's no way to get them past the Omega-4 relay until someone figures out how to mass-produce Reaper IFF devices. A commando team is useful for producing actionable intelligence, isn't it? If Shepard's mission is intelligence-gathering right up to the point where they discover that all the Collectors have is one vulnerable base, nothing really changes. (I see why sassafrassa keeps playing the "it doesn't really matter" card. This is easy.) Except when it comes to this particular point, sassafrassa is the one playing the 'it matters card"... and yet everything that ME1 does similar does apparently doesn't matter.
I agree with you BTW... There is really no way Shepard can even speculate about getting an army through the Omega 4 relay. A small team is the best he/she is going to be able to muster for the task regardless of how many bases the Collectors might have hidden there.
If Shepard had found, once getting through the relay, that he faced truly impossible odds and perhaps even discovered another relay leading to the Reaper home base in "dark space", it would have left ME2 in a cliffhanger and provided a more natural lead into ME3... where Shepard goes back, but not to turn himself/herself in. Instead, he/she starts trying to convince the Alliance and the Council to follow him/her with an army to take out the Reaper home base.
Yeah I agreee I think tha twould hav emade for a rather moer interestin cliffhanger in the end if we did rather than the reapers approaching the galaxy in the credits.
|
|