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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 3, 2019 4:33:22 GMT
In the Mass Effect trilogy I noticed long ago that generally the Paragon side of the game is geared towards supporting the Council and its multi-racial community. Paragonism in Mass Effect seems to be all about trust and compassion over cynical pragmatism and nationalism. However I think a close look at the Council will show that to at least some degree Paragon Shepard is being taken for a fool. Simply put, the Council is not remotely benevolent and is in fact quite the opposite, espousing values more similar to Renegade, ironically enough. Let us recount the history of the Council.
Some three thousand years ago or thereabouts, the Council was formed by the asari and salarians, soon after making contact with the volus. Sometime later they ran into the rachni and a brutal war ensued which the Council was at best maintaining in a stalemate. Eventually the salarians became aware of the krogan and recognizing their aggression and biological toughness they uplifted them into a space-faring species, the krogan living in a near stone-age after destroying their society in nuclear Armageddon. Against the rachni the krogan would prove formidable, eventually driving the insect-like race into extinction and winning victory for the Council. However the peace would not last.
For you see the krogan had a naturally very high rate of fertility, birthing thousands of young in a clutch. This was because the krogan evolved on a world blessed with high solar energy which developed into very energetic and aggressive life. To many other species Tuchanka could be called a "Hell World" for how dangerous and tenacious its native life were, and presumably, still are. The krogan were the apex predators in this world, though only just barely even in spite of their high fertility. However it seems the krogan had never found a proper balance between their intelligence and their aggression they created advanced societies and then destroyed them in nuclear war. It seemed they were destined to remain a primitive and savage people for all time... if not for the salarians.
The salarians gave the krogan technology more advanced than they had ever developed and moved substantial portions of their population to less hellish worlds. Free of their natural predators the krogan thrived. A golden age ensued as they waged war against the rachni, defeated them, and then basked in the glory and admiration of the Council and its associate races. As a reward for their victory the krogan were gifted several colony worlds and their civilization expanded. In time, they filled these worlds to the brim with their people. As they had never lost their aggressive tendencies this caused a problem when it became apparent that the krogan would need more living space. If you glance at the codex you will know that even krogan spaceships are designed with this in mind; giving krogan privacy and separate quarters where needed. So the krogan again began searching for and claiming new worlds. More time passed and they filled those worlds too. They needed more living space. Now they had to actively compete with their neighbors for worlds, claiming worlds by right of conquest rather than by first discovery or Council proclamation. Yet still, the krogan hungered as their numbers swelled. With no options left they began annexing worlds already settled by other species whom were associates of the Council. The Council made no public move against the krogan, preparing their Spectres and STG agents behind the scenes instead. Finally, when the krogan annexed an asari world, the Council at last declared war.
Like the Rachni Wars that had ended several centuries prior this new conflict, the Krogan Rebellions as the conflict would later be called, would itself be long and bloody. Once more the Council found itself barely able to hold the krogan at bay. Fortunately they would again happen across another species more militant than themselves; the Turian Hierarchy. With vast fleets and a military society more professional and controlled than the krogan, the turians proved an even match for them. With the Council's backing they drove the krogan back, but still the krogan would not yield. The salarians had long since recognized this problem, perhaps foreseeing it ages prior. They had engineered a virus that once released upon the krogan would slash their birth rate a thousand fold. No longer would the krogan's numbers swell, no longer would they be able to easily replace their fallen warriors. The turians were given this virus, purportedly to use as a means of deterrent, but the turians know only one form of war: Total War. They blasted the krogan to ruins and deployed the virus to ensure the krogan could not recover from the turian's might. Eventually the krogan were utterly destroyed as a military force, their sense of unity and ability to make war crushed into dust. The price was that ever after their mothers would give birth to thousands of stillborn children. To have some tell it, the krogan lost hope as they saw their extinction become just a matter of time.
Yet, are the krogan really at fault for this? I would argue that the greater portion of blame lays with the Council. They plucked a species out of its environment and placed it down again in a foreign one. You can look at the history of the Earth to see what catastrophes can arise when an organism migrates form its original environment into a new one. Sometimes that organism finds a balance. Sometimes that organism dies. Other times that organism dominates or eradicates, directly or indirectly, the native species in its new environment. The krogan did not evolve the innate stability to create a space-faring society, which entails mastering and maintaining highly destructive forces and goes hand in hand with technologies that shelter a people from the predations of nature. Such as species must have a birth rate that lets it expand without crowding itself in its own domicile and causing strife. Such a species must be aggressive enough to ward off predators and feed itself, but not so aggressive that it slaughters all other members of it species to the point of collapse. The krogan were none of these things... and we shouldn't judge them for it. They were what the native environment of Tuchanka allowed them to be. It was what they had needed to be to survive. However the salarians grabbed them up out of it anyway to use as soldiers in a war that threatened the salarians and the Council, not the krogan. We have seen examples of this in real life, countless times, such as the United States arming the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, only for the US to invade Afghanistan itself decades later. The krogan were used as tools because to use them that way benefited the immediate needs of the Council with the krogan's own self-interest and welfare being a distant second, if it was even considered at all.
Where the krogan were once seen as noble warriors, as the heroes of the Citadel, they are now regarded as mercenaries, pirates, and cut-throats. Savages to be avoided if possible, and killed if not. I'd be remiss not to point out that at the salarian STG has indeed monitored the krogan species to make sure they do not die out completely. Doctor Mordin Solus himself has even voiced his belief that it was wrong the uplift the krogan in the first place. However that makes little difference to the krogan and now and it can be argued whether ever curing the Genophage is a good thing or not. That's another debate, though.
After the end of the Krogan Rebellions the turians were invited to join the Council and the three Council races would enjoy a long lasting peace for thousands of years until the Morning War. The quarians had accidentally birthed a race of sentient AI's and in a panic had attempted to terminate them. This backfired on them and the quarian species was nearly eradicated. The Council had long since regarded AI as dangerous and strictly controlled its research and development. Though the quarians had broken no law they had nonetheless birthed rogue AI's and had, in the Council's eyes, attempted genocide against them. For even if the Council banned the creation of synthetic life they still regarded it as a form of life entitled to certain rights. When the beleaguered quarian survivors, less than 0.1% of the population they had once been, approached the Council for aid they were denied. The Council shut down their embassy and cast them out of Citadel Space. Not only was this callous, it was also reckless.
The Council did regard the geth as a threat and so had their fleet blockade geth space for a number of months. When the geth did not attack the Council withdrew and sent contact teams to treat with the geth, only for those teams to be murdered. The geth would repeat this hostility time and again over the following centuries. Yet we must ask ourselves why the Council had such strict laws in place against AI to begin with. Why the harsh penalties for the quarians only to attempt peace with the geth and when that failed, tolerate indifference? If rogue AI are dangerous then aren't the geth dangerous? It would seem so because they destroyed the quarian civilization, nearly eradicated the species, and refused diplomatic relations with the rest of the galaxy. What is the logical course of action in that case? It seems to me that the last thing you want rogue AI's doing is living in seclusion behind the Perseus Veil where you can't monitor them. They could be doing anything there, like say building up fleets of advanced warships that give them military power on par with the whole Citadel. If the Council truly cares for galactic stability over the long term then in light of the geth refusal to talk the only sane course is war. Attack the geth and bring them to heel. You don't have to exterminate them, but you absolutely cannot allow them to maintain their uncontrolled and unmonitored state. The geth refusing Council diplomacy attempts only lends credence to the quarians' actions which means the Council is obligated to support them. Assuming the survival of a sentient species wasn't enough. Yes, the cost would be high, but a severe threat would be eliminated and perhaps at gun point, with their ability to resist crushed, the geth could be FORCED to talk peace. To live in peace with their creators on their home world. The horrors of the Migrant Fleet could have been avoided and the Council would have been justified in stripping the quarians of their autonomy and making them subjects of the Citadel, banned from ever creating AI or VI's, or even made into a client race of the turians. Both the quarian and geth species would be better off this way, I'd argue.
As we know however the Council did none of that. They did nothing. They let the geth continue to evolve and develop behind the secrecy of the Perseus Veil while the quarian people were left to whither and slowly die. Oh wait, no, that wasn't all the Council did. At one point they did take an interest in the quarians. At one point the quarians discovered a garden world suitable for their colonization. The gravity was high, but mass effect fields are common and could be used to counter it. While the quarians prepared the paperwork to present to the Council, requesting that the world be officially granted to them, thousands of settlers began setting up homes on the planet's surface. The Council heard of this and dismissed the quarians' petition, granting the world to the elcor instead. Not only that, but they sent their fleet to orbit the planet and threaten to bomb the quarians if they remained on the surface. Harsh, no? What's more interesting, is that this world was in the Terminus Systems, the very collection of systems and species whom the Council is so afraid of agitating in ME1 and ME2. It is that fear which they use to justify sending NO military response when the geth attacked Eden Prime. It is the same rationale they used when the Collectors begun abducting entire human populations. The Council fleet can be used to evict quarian settlers but not to protect worlds against the geth or the Collectors? I'd like to think the writers were aware of this contradiction and used it to illustrate the Council's hypocrisy and self-serving nature. It's what makes them so compelling... so realistic. Governments don't survive or expand by being benevolent but by serving their own interests, sometimes at the expense of the very populations they purport to serve.
So if the Council is inclined only to defend itself, then how do you join it? Remember the volus, the third species to find the Citadel? They never joined the Council, even though they have since their entry into the galactic community provided a huge economical boost to their neighbors. After becoming a client race of the turians it can be said that the volus are at least in part responsible for the Hierarchy's ability to maintain its vast fleets. Ditto the Citadel and Council itself. Why weren't the volus, or the elcor, or hanar, or others given seats? The reason is that they lacked hard power. Hard power is military power. It is the capacity to resort to brute force to get your way in politics when diplomacy fails or is not an option. The Council demands that a member species provide fleets to help patrol and defend Citadel Space. This is reasonable perhaps, but consider that the true measure of power among the Council races is their dreadnaughts and dreadnaughts are restricted by treaty. The Council is entitled to build the most and their associate races are permitted far fewer. So the Council has instituted rules that effectively prevent other species from ever joining its ranks. The turians had built up their vast military prior to meeting the Council and the experiences of the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions taught the Council that their military capabilities were insufficient, so they needed another cornerstone species. Eventually another race would join the Council, the human race, but their entrance was caused by two things: the Battle of the Citadel, which saw the geth attack and decimate the Council fleets, and humans' borderline reckless pursuit of military power and economic growth. For you see, humanity had found a loop-hole in the Treaty of Farixen (the restriction on dreadnaught construction); humanity built carriers. These massive ships were home to entire squadrons of small fighters capable of striking at long range and overwhelming the defenses of other larger vessels such as dreadnaughts. Humanity's carrier fleet plus its dreadnaught fleet put it at parity with the Council, a situation that the Council never tired of grumbling about, while at the same time using humanity's military prowess to settle and pacify the unstable regions in the Attican Traverse and Skyllian Verge. It was only by bucking and circumventing the rules that humanity was ever in the position to join the Council. The elcor, volus, and hanar never stood a chance because they played by the rules.
Yet, fleets are not the only way the Council maintains power; they also have their office of Special Tactics and Recon, the SPECTRES. These agents are individuals of extreme talent and combat effectiveness, diplomatic if they need be, but always capable of neutralizing threats through murder or intimidation if the need arises. You see, the Spectres are not bound by any laws or rules and can kill or torture anyone if they feel doing so is necessary to complete their mission. What might those missions be? Well, they vary, but what matters is the mission statement of the Spectres, or their mandate, if you prefer: protect galactic stability at all costs.
This is a pretty vague notion and almost anything you can imagine could be justified under it. Why not cause an economic crisis in human space that stunts humanity's growth as a species, perhaps causing infighting that cripples their military? I'm aware of no such act taking place but if a Spectre did it... it would be legal. Of-course there are practical limits to a Spectre agent's power; if the Council must choose between one of their agents and all out war they will probably choose to avoid war and sacrifice that agent, revoking their Spectre status and/or declaring them rogue, which means sending another agent to capture or kill them. We saw this with Saren and if you pay close attention you might interpret the events of the first game as the Council only turning against Saren once it was clear that humanity had proof of his aggression, and was willing to go to war to avenge their colony of Eden Prime. After all, the Spectres are bound by no laws so how could it be illegal for Saren to ally with the geth and use them to attack a human world? It was for galactic stability, was it not? If you think this theory is crazy then consider that the Council never had any interest in investigating Saren, desiring to have the entire affair swept under the rug. Does that not strike you as odd, that they could hardly be bothered enough about a geth fleet attacking a human world, in the heart of Citadel Space, and destroying a Prothean relic in the process? This wasn't new though; 20 years prior the Council had deliberately assigned Saren to a joint operation with hunanity's first Spectre candidate, David Anderson. The Council would have known Saren's anti-human bias. As well he was well known for his ruthlessness and when he issued a report blaming Anderson for the high body count of his mission, the Council did not bother to question him.
In fact, the Council is not interested in closely scrutinizing any of its agents. They specifically and literally state that they do not like to be directly involved in Spectre activities. Why would that be? The only reason that would make sense is that they know their agents frequently carry out hostile and immoral acts in their name. If the Spectres weren't ruthless killers then they wouldn't even need special privileges. A Spectre doesn't need a warrant or probable cause to search you or torture you or kill you. Saren had a favorite saying:
It's entirely his right, too. Or, perhaps the Council's right, since he is their agent. Is this the way a benevolent government behaves? Does a just and open government, a government with real moral legitimacy, need such people as Saren and the Spectres to enforce their rule? The Spectres are sold to the players of Mass Effect 1 as elite agents and heroes, but the truth is they are secret police. They are the NKVD or the Waffen SS. The concept should be frightening and I would hope that no one would be comfortable with any real-world leader having such people under their wing.
Bare in mind that the Council is just three, or eventually four, species. Yet other races use the Citadel and are bound by the Council's laws and subject to the whims of their Spectre agents. The elcor, volus, hanar, at one time the krogan, batarians, and quarians, have never had any official say with the Council. They have no role in its governance what-so-ever. A species' ambassador can petition the Council but they have no actual legal power, only the chance to argue their case and allow the Council to decide. This is hardly just. A democratic Citadel government would grant each species willing to live under its unified set of laws some means of real legal power and influence. There will always be a hierarchy of species but there is no reason it needs to be so one-sided and, dare I say, tyrannical. You could reorganize the Citadel government in any number of ways to allow each species a space to stand as equals and another space to stand in more practical terms of economic and/or military power or population.
Of-course, one could argue that the Citadel's organization of its members by species rather than by ideology is questionable. Could humans and turians and batarians form a political party that is based on ideology rather than biology? Could they create a multi-species nation and gain a Council seat if they amassed enough power and good will? I think that is an interesting question. I am getting off topic, though.
Suffice to say, when you consider the Council's history; the way it used the krogan, the way it callously ignored the plight of the quarians, the way it sat passive and useless while the geth amassed power, and the disregard the Council had for the welfare of humans in more recent times, combined with their biased laws and ruthless agents, it should give you some pause to consider whether the Council really deserves Paragon Shepard's trust and support. Paragon Shepard is a noble and honorable soul; perhaps naive at times, but at the very least we can probably agree that the galaxy is better off with Paragon Shep than without him/her. I hope that if there are more Mass Effect games that the heroes who walk the High Road will have a more noble and worthy government to champion.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 3, 2019 11:58:37 GMT
And that's way it's always good to kill off the Council in ME1, its like you're bringing some justice to the galaxy.
Too bad you can't kill off their replacements in ME3, though I guess the robot squids get that honour.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 3, 2019 12:49:35 GMT
I agree on everything but the points about the Krogan.
Sure it was morally ambiguous to uplift them, but at the time an apocalyptic invasion was taking place. The Asari and Salarians had no way of telling if the Rachni would ever stop their attacks, and the background lore of that time never says that the Rachni were only targeting Council worlds. For all we know Tuchunka could have been swarmed by space faring insectoid aliens and it's population wiped out if the Rachni would have won the war. Even the Reapers, who were specifically avoiding certain types of species, garnered a need for all out defense against hostile invaders so the Krogan uplift doesn't particularly strike me as any more self-serving to the survival of the known galaxy then it is when Shepard is scooping up Prothean artifacts and recruiting various species' assets for the common defense.
As for the Krogan themselves, I personally don't buy the notion that they are not at fault for their actions leading up to the Rebellions. They were smart enough to realize that one of their neighboring planets was a caustic and lethally toxic planet when they asked the Salarians to bring them there (despite living in a post nuclear holocaust/dark age society). They were smart enough to formulate battle tactics and coordinate planetary sieges despite their recent uplift. They were intelligent enough to have a seat on the council, a position that gave them a one third's vote on galactic politics and use that to grant them as much leeway as they could get away with. And they knew the ramifications of their 'soft invasion' of the galaxy, they just chose to ignore them.
Using the notion of racial underdevelopment to excuse Krogan actions during the Rebellions is a copout (IMO) and one that cheapens their characterization via whitewashing. Its a cyclical argument I find, one that changes to suit the side of the Krogan. Either they are 'too primitive' to be trusted with things like population control and world management, or they are full members of society, and as such are subject to harsh punishment when they decided to set themselves up against the rest of said society.
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Post by Phantom on Jan 3, 2019 16:56:14 GMT
i do know of a certain shady organization is recruiting right now. *uses Tactical cloak to walk away while leaving a datapad*
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 3, 2019 17:04:46 GMT
i do know of a certain shady organization is recruiting right now. *uses Tactical cloak to walk away while leaving a datapad* Eh, Cerberus is just as bad. Worse actually since they only see humanity as being the ones in charge. And that's even before they decided to inject themselves with Reaper tech.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 3, 2019 18:24:40 GMT
i do know of a certain shady organization is recruiting right now. *uses Tactical cloak to walk away while leaving a datapad* Cerberus experiments on people, genocidal bugs and sentient plants. Not an organization I would trust. The one and only positive thing Cerberus does is fight enemies the Alliance and Council won't due to their need for overwhelming evidence. Sovereign was it until they had time to ponder and decide it was a geth.
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Post by KrrKs on Jan 3, 2019 18:58:37 GMT
I kind of agree with the op's notion, and kind of don't. The thing is, the council at times does seem evil, either intended or not. At other times it is apparent that the original intention of it is to be the good guys. I guess a lot of that has to do with ME being primarily a game-series, and several later information bits of ME2/3 contradicting the originally laid out informations. Especially the Terminus systems and what they are and are not drastically changed between ME1 and 2. Yet I don't think the contradictions are always intentional - see your point about the Quarian chosen world. We come across several other planets that would be much more viable for Quarian settlement, yet -during all dialogue- they insist that retaking their homeworld is the only viable option. There are also several planets whose description sounds more like they should be part of the Attican Traverse or even council space instead of the Terminus systems - e.g., Garvug a world given to the Krogan. By all accords this should be at least somewhere near the council ruled space, yet is not. Another in-universe thing, is that the council is not always and necessarily in charge. As we see in ME3, a lot of the actual political powers actually lies within the council species own governments. Council species who themselves have different opinions about what is 'good' or 'right'. About Ekuna, the world the Elcor got: According to the codex entry for Aite (Project: Overlord) the whole Phoenix Massing was considered council space at a time. So any colonization attempts (like the original first settlement wave on Aite) must be run by the council. The Quarians acted in violation of that and were in turn denied. I could not find anything stating that an entire council fleet was send there, only that the Quarians where given a month to evacuate before their settlements would be bombarded. For a bombardment a single ship would have been enough. As we seen in 2184 w.r.t. Israfil in the Micah system, sending a single ship into the terminus systems does not seem to be problem. I had another point about the minor races not being represented, IIRC this was w.r.t something Avina said about the council races responsibilities, but I can't remember it anymore. Suffice to say it was going along the lines of the rule of only 3 or 4 species representatives over all others being obviously less than perfect. Anyway: The whole Council as we got it seems be born out of the games' necessity to have a very limited number of people in power that are always nay-sayers (looking at Sparatus in particular).
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 3, 2019 23:50:18 GMT
We come across several other planets that would be much more viable for Quarian settlement You mean, without bacterial life? Which ones you're thinking about? No. Idenna.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 4, 2019 3:10:27 GMT
Using the notion of racial underdevelopment to excuse Krogan actions during the Rebellions is a copout (IMO) and one that cheapens their characterization via whitewashing. Its a cyclical argument I find, one that changes to suit the side of the Krogan. Either they are 'too primitive' to be trusted with things like population control and world management, or they are full members of society, and as such are subject to harsh punishment when they decided to set themselves up against the rest of said society. Perhaps I do go a bit too far and wind up assigning the krogan no blame. That wasn't really my intent though the truth is I'm not sure how I feel about it. I am inclined to say that it is not quite fair to hold the krogan to a standard that they may not be adequately equipped by evolution to live up to.
i do know of a certain shady organization is recruiting right now. *uses Tactical cloak to walk away while leaving a datapad* I was going to bring up Cerberus and Terra Firma but the post was long enough and it just wasn't necessary. I agree in principal that humanity needs an organized group that pursues its long-term interests and development by any means. An equivalent to the STG, Special Intervention Unit (batarian), or whatever the turian's have (they do have a special group but I recall the name). However the problem Cerberus comes down to the writing. They are retconned and filled with conflicting ideas in their design and lore and used very badly by the writers. That's not even touching on the ethical issues surrounding them or the question of their competence. All of this comes down to the writing. An example, somewhat related, is the Alliance in ME1. In Mass Effect 1 Hackett sends Shepard after biotic cultists who have abducted an Alliance Chairman and if questioned, he will state that while rescuing the Chairman is preferred, the priority is to send a message that terrorism will not work. This would seem to be a hint that the losses on Tofan in the wake of the Skyllian Blitz were anticipated by the Alliance beforehand. Two other examples are the use of nuclear bomb-armed scout drones used by the Alliance during the First Contact War and then covered up and hidden from the Council. These drones had been lost and were wondering the Mass Relay Network for decades. potentially putting countless innocent lives at risk. One is eventually found by a pirate. The second example is Plutus and Lord Darius; the Alliance gave this criminal warlord the funding and armaments to crush his rivals and stabilize the area. When he got greedy and began demanding to be recognized as a sovereign head of state Admiral Hackett sent Shepard (if Renegade) to assassinate Darius. This is completely illegal and so much so that Hackett lies to Shepard and attempts to manipulate him into doing the deed, sending Shepard to negotiate even though he knows that Shepard may be a poor negotiator and/or that Darius will be insulted by the Alliance sending a soldier and not an official Alliance Negotiator. What's worse, if Shepard actually does successfully negotiate with Lord Darius the Alliance will honor the terms, and that can include helping him manufacture Red Sand.
Oh, I did recall another example; the Biotic Acclimiation Training Program, or BAT. The Alliance whisked biotic children away from their parents at a young age and subjected them to harsh instruction by alien tutors in the use of their biotics. In ME1 it was also pointed out by Alenko that at time a number of freighters had exploded over populated areas and exposed people to element zero, with the Alliance being suspiciously quick on the scene to snatch up biotic kids. We learn in ME2 that the cause of the accidents was Cerberus, but in the canon of ME1 Cerberus was an Alliance initiative. Which also meant that their study of rachni and thorian creepers might have begun under the Alliance's' wing and that the experimentation of Cpl Toombs after Akuze was done at the behest of the Alliance.
In ME1 the Alliance was actually very, very grey, and Cerberus being a group of their own creation, now rogue, fit that quite naturally. I rather wish this had never been retconned because I think this relationship was way more interesting. However in ME2 and ME3 the Alliance are just "the good guys". It's very bland.
Another in-universe thing, is that the council is not always and necessarily in charge. As we see in ME3, a lot of the actual political powers actually lies within the council species own governments. Council species who themselves have different opinions about what is 'good' or 'right'. About Ekuna, the world the Elcor got: According to the codex entry for Aite (Project: Overlord) the whole Phoenix Massing was considered council space at a time. So any colonization attempts (like the original first settlement wave on Aite) must be run by the council. The Quarians acted in violation of that and were in turn denied. I don't dispute that Mass Effect canon is filled with contradictions due to poor writing (or editing). That's very possible too but it's not very fun to talk about. Regarding the Terminus Systems, it could be argued that it was the Council's mismanagement of its vassals that created the Terminus. They failed to restore the status-quo after the quarians were cast down, failed to properly manage the batarians, eventually causing them to withdraw from the Citadel completely, and this is what lead to the Terminus Systems, which themselves caused much instability in the Skyllian Verge and Attican Traverse. I think an interesting alternative scenario to imagine would be humanity going rogue early on in ME1 when the Council fails to convict Saren. In this alternate universe they mobilize for full on war with the geth... which might mean reaching out and finally establishing diplomatic relations with the Migrant Fleet. Together the two just might be able to plan out a campaign that neutralizes the Terminus and then allows them to invade the Perseus Veil. Imagine the aftermath... they'd be poised to create their own anti-Council, perhaps they could even annex Omega and place it there, from which to mock the Citadel? It's a fun "What if?"
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Jan 4, 2019 12:42:26 GMT
Interesting. I came to the same conclusion a few days ago but without the more in depth analysis.
Basically, we have an unelected government in the Citadel Council, making policy decisions for entire races that are not represented on the Coucil. And the Council has an army of agents (the Spectres) that are not bound by the law to do whatever they can to "maintain galactic peace" and they only answer to the Citadel Council.
If that is not a recipe for disaster I don't know what is.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 4, 2019 13:38:25 GMT
An example, somewhat related, is the Alliance in ME1. In Mass Effect 1 Hackett sends Shepard after biotic cultists who have abducted an Alliance Chairman and if questioned, he will state that while rescuing the Chairman is preferred, the priority is to send a message that terrorism will not work. This would seem to be a hint that the losses on Tofan in the wake of the Skyllian Blitz were anticipated by the Alliance beforehand. Two other examples are the use of nuclear bomb-armed scout drones used by the Alliance during the First Contact War and then covered up and hidden from the Council. These drones had been lost and were wondering the Mass Relay Network for decades. potentially putting countless innocent lives at risk. One is eventually found by a pirate. The second example is Plutus and Lord Darius; the Alliance gave this criminal warlord the funding and armaments to crush his rivals and stabilize the area. When he got greedy and began demanding to be recognized as a sovereign head of state Admiral Hackett sent Shepard (if Renegade) to assassinate Darius. This is completely illegal and so much so that Hackett lies to Shepard and attempts to manipulate him into doing the deed, sending Shepard to negotiate even though he knows that Shepard may be a poor negotiator and/or that Darius will be insulted by the Alliance sending a soldier and not an official Alliance Negotiator. What's worse, if Shepard actually does successfully negotiate with Lord Darius the Alliance will honor the terms, and that can include helping him manufacture Red Sand. Oh, I did recall another example; the Biotic Acclimiation Training Program, or BAT. The Alliance whisked biotic children away from their parents at a young age and subjected them to harsh instruction by alien tutors in the use of their biotics. In ME1 it was also pointed out by Alenko that at time a number of freighters had exploded over populated areas and exposed people to element zero, with the Alliance being suspiciously quick on the scene to snatch up biotic kids. The Alliance's means are indeed shady but their goal was always clear: "protection and advancement of the human race", or whatever Miranda is trying to attribute to Cerberus in ME2. At the other hand, while Cerberus's means are surely questionable and the games are trying to tell us on this basis that they're bad (failing btw.), we never learned about their goals from a reliable source until Karpyshyn settled it once and for all after ME2. What I mean is that goals will always be a more important factor than means when judging people and Cerberus in ME2 is much more shady (undefined actually, because the writers were apparently still unsure what their place in the story is) than the Alliance in this matter. Oh come on, the "Cerberus as an Alliance cell" part was expunged before ME2 and reminded to be false a couple times after.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 14:30:39 GMT
I frequently save the council. To me, the decision comes down to what would be worse - a moderately bad government or no government when the reapers hit in force. Vigil tells Shepard point blank that their government was completely wiped out during the initial attack and, as a result, the Protheans were unable to fight back as effectively as they might of had their government survived. So, to avoid the same fate, I save the council. Perhaps, after the war, an elected government or a government representative of more of species could be installed.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 4, 2019 15:11:09 GMT
Interesting. I came to the same conclusion a few days ago but without the more in depth analysis. Basically, we have an unelected government in the Citadel Council, making policy decisions for entire races that are not represented on the Coucil. And the Council has an army of agents (the Spectres) that are not bound by the law to do whatever they can to "maintain galactic peace" and they only answer to the Citadel Council. If that is not a recipe for disaster I don't know what is. That's a far more succinct way of putting it but to get the maximum impact I decided I wanted to really drag out their dirty laundry. Oh come on, the "Cerberus as an Alliance cell" part was expunged before ME2 and reminded to be false a couple times after. True, I remember being confused the first time I read Ascension. I still wish they'd kept things on track from ME1. Rogue Alliance black ops, especially if revealed later to not actually be rogue, is more interesting to me than a human survivalist paramilitary group that has always been independent. I remember during the ME2 days speculating about whether Hackett was in on it. He's underhanded enough that I totally believed it possible back then. An apparently "rogue" operations group for the Alliance, if used just right, would be a fantastic asset for them.
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 4, 2019 15:19:11 GMT
The Alliance weren't the people on the scene of the ship explosions. That was Conatix, a private corporation that oversaw the early days of biotic research. Conatix split into a bunch of shell corporations when BAaT shut down, and it was only after that that the Alliance took over.
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Post by KrrKs on Jan 4, 2019 20:15:41 GMT
We come across several other planets that would be much more viable for Quarian settlement You mean, without bacterial life? Which ones you're thinking about? Where is it mentioned that Ekuna does not have bacterial life? I could not even find information that it supports dextro-amino-acid life forms, which seems unreasonable when the Elcor colony there thrives. Most of these worlds are colonized, though the oldest colony was established 2120, long after the morning war. And these are just the worlds from the explicitly stated Garden world list: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Garden_Worlds. IIRC the normandy visits several planets that could sustain (dextro-amino-acid based) life not on that list. Though maybe I misremember You mean the Ship? IIRC the only time it is mentioned in dialog in the games is during ME2 Freedom's Progress tutorial mission (No specifics given except that it was attacked by Cerberus). All dialog I know w.r.t. quarians settling worlds comes from Tali (mostly during ME2) and Admiral Koris during her loyalty mission. All of which stating that they won't try to settle any planet besides Ranoch as it would take too long/never happen for their immune system to adapt to another world.
Back to the Council: IIRC there is an Avina line about Council member-state being obligated to help other citadel members in cases of emergencies. This burden would be 'too much for the lesser races' to handle (accoriding to ME1 Avina). Do we actually see any instance in the game where the council helps anyone (Without Shepard having to shout at them first)? I can't remember such an occurrence. Meanwhile this would indeed be a somewhat valid reason to not include the (post ME1) volus in the council. As they basically became smaller versions of the Ferengi, only interested in their own personal profit.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 4, 2019 23:00:08 GMT
You mean, without bacterial life? Which ones you're thinking about? Where is it mentioned that Ekuna does not have bacterial life? Never. But you're trying to say that some very good planets for quarian settlements exist and the lack of bacterial life is a must if they want to live there without masks. Has bacteria and is already colonized by turians. They must do if they want to be economically self-sufficient there. It was on a long mission scouting for a new homeworld for the quarians. See ME: Ascension, the detailed story of the Cerberus attack is also there. You probably misremembered something. Quoting Shala'Raan: They really had this option in consideration. And don't forget the Nedas movement. The push for a new homeworld was real and I bet that at some point they started analyzing all the planets the Flotilla came across for viability but found nothing and that's why they had to send the Idenna.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 5, 2019 3:03:22 GMT
I frequently save the council. To me, the decision comes down to what would be worse - a moderately bad government or no government when the reapers hit in force. Vigil tells Shepard point blank that their government was completely wiped out during the initial attack and, as a result, the Protheans were unable to fight back as effectively as they might of had their government survived. So, to avoid the same fate, I save the council. Perhaps, after the war, an elected government or a government representative of more of species could be installed. I understand your reasoning but I disagree with it. As I see it, in the moment of the decision the choice is whether or not to risk the immediate destruction of the galaxy over potentially gaining long-term stability. Mind you, instability could have its own benefit it means a military build-up. My Shepard chooses "Focus on Sovereign" because the consequences of failing to destroy it are just too severe. If you spare the Council from the geth only to then fail to destroy Sovereign then you won't have saved anybody. Back to the Council: IIRC there is an Avina line about Council member-state being obligated to help other citadel members in cases of emergencies. This burden would be 'too much for the lesser races' to handle (accoriding to ME1 Avina). Do we actually see any instance in the game where the council helps anyone (Without Shepard having to shout at them first)? I can't remember such an occurrence. Meanwhile this would indeed be a somewhat valid reason to not include the (post ME1) volus in the council. As they basically became smaller versions of the Ferengi, only interested in their own personal profit.
I can't think of any example of the Council helping anyone. I'm sure it happens in small ways when there is no real risk or cost for them. Even during the build up to the Krogan Rebellions the Council took no overt action and quietly prepared until the krogan finally attacked an asari world. And don't forget the Nedas movement. The push for a new homeworld was real and I bet that at some point they started analyzing all the planets the Flotilla came across for viability but found nothing and that's why they had to send the Idenna. Something that I don't recall being explicitly stated but that would be a logical consideration, is that if the quarians settle down and the geth have not been neutralized then the possibility exists that the geth might attack and finish them off. Retaking Rannoch means not only having a world they are better adapted too, but it also means destroying their greatest enemy. Another alternative is to apply to the turians to become a client race. The Hierarchy seems pretty good about taking care of its vassal species.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 10:36:53 GMT
I frequently save the council. To me, the decision comes down to what would be worse - a moderately bad government or no government when the reapers hit in force. Vigil tells Shepard point blank that their government was completely wiped out during the initial attack and, as a result, the Protheans were unable to fight back as effectively as they might of had their government survived. So, to avoid the same fate, I save the council. Perhaps, after the war, an elected government or a government representative of more of species could be installed. I understand your reasoning but I disagree with it. As I see it, in the moment of the decision the choice is whether or not to risk the immediate destruction of the galaxy over potentially gaining long-term stability. Mind you, instability could have its own benefit it means a military build-up. My Shepard chooses "Focus on Sovereign" because the consequences of failing to destroy it are just too severe. If you spare the Council from the geth only to then fail to destroy Sovereign then you won't have saved anybody. Back to the Council: IIRC there is an Avina line about Council member-state being obligated to help other citadel members in cases of emergencies. This burden would be 'too much for the lesser races' to handle (accoriding to ME1 Avina). Do we actually see any instance in the game where the council helps anyone (Without Shepard having to shout at them first)? I can't remember such an occurrence. Meanwhile this would indeed be a somewhat valid reason to not include the (post ME1) volus in the council. As they basically became smaller versions of the Ferengi, only interested in their own personal profit.
I can't think of any example of the Council helping anyone. I'm sure it happens in small ways when there is no real risk or cost for them. Even during the build up to the Krogan Rebellions the Council took no overt action and quietly prepared until the krogan finally attacked an asari world. And don't forget the Nedas movement. The push for a new homeworld was real and I bet that at some point they started analyzing all the planets the Flotilla came across for viability but found nothing and that's why they had to send the Idenna. Something that I don't recall being explicitly stated but that would be a logical consideration, is that if the quarians settle down and the geth have not been neutralized then the possibility exists that the geth might attack and finish them off. Retaking Rannoch means not only having a world they are better adapted too, but it also means destroying their greatest enemy. Another alternative is to apply to the turians to become a client race. The Hierarchy seems pretty good about taking care of its vassal species. I don't really care that you disagree with it. Mass Effect is a role playing game, which means that they write the game to accommodate different sorts of reasoning. There is no singular "right" way to play it. No absolute "high road" I hope they continue to do that rather than become a devise for preaching a particular morality to the masses.
Defeating Sovereign is not the equivalent of defeating the all the reapers. Through is conversation with Vigil, Shepard knows that the destruction of the galaxy would not be immediate, but would be a long, slow process (as it was for the protheans). Shepard also knows there are more Reapers out there and that defeating Sovereign is, at best, only going to buy the galaxy some time in which they might be able to work out some sort of plan for dealing with the long term threat. To do that, the galaxy needs a government and cannot allow itself to fall into anarchy and instability like the empire of the Protheans.
Also, you're not technically "sparing the Council" from the geth. The geth are not fighting at the Citadel on their own account. They are fighting on behalf of the Reapers and under the direct control of Sovereign. It is part of the Reaper plan of attack to destroy the galactic government in the earliest stages of the battle (again, we know this from Vigil). By saving the council, you're thwarting that portion of the Reaper plan of attack and forcing them to change their plan of attack every bit as much as killing their sentry (Sovereign) forces them to "find another way."
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 5, 2019 17:34:35 GMT
The geth are not fighting at the Citadel on their own account. They are fighting on behalf of the Reapers and under the direct control of Sovereign. Do were know this to be true? As far as we know, Sovereign offered them significantly better tech for their services. A segment of the geth took the deal while the rest remained beyond the Perseus Veil. That said, we know for a fact that the Reapers have taken control of other benevolent (or at least non-aggressive) synthetic races in the past. Perhaps they would have enslaved them had all geth rejected the offer. We'll never know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 18:05:30 GMT
The geth are not fighting at the Citadel on their own account. They are fighting on behalf of the Reapers and under the direct control of Sovereign. Do were know this to be true? As far as we know, Sovereign offered them significantly better tech for their services. A segment of the geth took the deal while the rest remained beyond the Perseus Veil. That said, we know for a fact that the Reapers have taken control of other benevolent (or at least non-aggressive) synthetic races in the past. Perhaps they would have enslaved them had all geth rejected the offer. We'll never know. Saren certainly implies that they are "devoted" to Sovereign and "idolize" it like a god. I would consider this strong evidence that they are under Sovereign's direct control - much like a cult leader is in control of the members of the cult. Whether or not they entered the cult voluntarily or through enslavement is, IMO, irrelevant.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 5, 2019 21:29:41 GMT
Defeating Sovereign is not the equivalent of defeating the all the reapers. It is though because the battle against Sovereign has the same stakes as a war with the Reapers as a whole. If you loose to Sovereign you lose everything then and there. The Reapers enter the galaxy, capture the Citadel, and turn off the mass relay network. Game over. Viewed in that context an argument can be made that the destruction of Sovereign should be prioritized over anything else.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 5, 2019 22:04:42 GMT
Defeating Sovereign is not the equivalent of defeating the all the reapers. It is though because the battle against Sovereign has the same stakes as a war with the Reapers as a whole. If you loose to Sovereign you lose everything then and there. The Reapers enter the galaxy, capture the Citadel, and turn off the mass relay network. Game over. Viewed in that context an argument can be made that the destruction of Sovereign should be prioritized over anything else. Defeating Sovereign is not the equivalent of defeating all the Reapers but not defeating Sovereign is the equivalent of not defeating all the Reapers.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 5, 2019 23:05:41 GMT
It is though because the battle against Sovereign has the same stakes as a war with the Reapers as a whole. If you loose to Sovereign you lose everything then and there. The Reapers enter the galaxy, capture the Citadel, and turn off the mass relay network. Game over. Viewed in that context an argument can be made that the destruction of Sovereign should be prioritized over anything else. Defeating Sovereign is not the equivalent of defeating all the Reapers but not defeating Sovereign is the equivalent of not defeating all the Reapers. Yes, that's what I meant. Better way of a putting it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 5, 2019 23:33:23 GMT
The geth are not fighting at the Citadel on their own account. They are fighting on behalf of the Reapers and under the direct control of Sovereign. Do were know this to be true? As far as we know, Sovereign offered them significantly better tech for their services. A segment of the geth took the deal while the rest remained beyond the Perseus Veil. That said, we know for a fact that the Reapers have taken control of other benevolent (or at least non-aggressive) synthetic races in the past. Perhaps they would have enslaved them had all geth rejected the offer. We'll never know. I think it is very probable. After all in ME2 we learn that the Reapers have a virus that could make all the Geth think like the Heretics and support them, which they planned to use on the non-Heretic Geth. Then in ME3 the Geth that didn't support going to the Reapers were imprisoned under their orders, as we see when we meet Legion/NotLegion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 0:30:54 GMT
It is though because the battle against Sovereign has the same stakes as a war with the Reapers as a whole. If you loose to Sovereign you lose everything then and there. The Reapers enter the galaxy, capture the Citadel, and turn off the mass relay network. Game over. Viewed in that context an argument can be made that the destruction of Sovereign should be prioritized over anything else. Defeating Sovereign is not the equivalent of defeating all the Reapers but not defeating Sovereign is the equivalent of not defeating all the Reapers. The harvest is STILL a very long slow process (more than a century). The total destruction of the galaxy is still not immediate. Defeating Sovereign merely delayed their arrival. It did not weaken their forces in any way. Reason out what you want to do as you please. It's an RPG game. I've stated how I reason it out. Neither way is "wrong" because it's an RPG game. That is all.
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