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Post by Rascoth on Oct 15, 2020 18:29:52 GMT
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Post by Catilina on Oct 18, 2020 16:43:46 GMT
Just a theory. Justice's reaction in Legacy is for to protect Anders – and probably to stop Hawke to go to break the seal on Corypheus' prison. (Similar than in Feynriel's quest, when he tries to stop Hawke to let the sloth to possess Feynriel, and in Awakening, when the Warden allies with the Architect, and doesn't convince him).) He feels, Corypheus affects Anders' (HIS) mind. (Sure he's confused, but to me, the try is clear.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 18, 2020 17:17:56 GMT
Justice's reaction in Legacy is for to protect Anders – and probably to stop Hawke to go to break the seal on Corypheus' prison I think you are right. There wouldn't be much point in Corypheus taking over Anders and trying to stop Hawke from getting to him. So Justice is reacting to the influence he can feel on Anders' mind and probably realises it is coming from the person they are about to free. At this point Corypheus is trying to influence Anders' mind in order to have control over him after the seal has been broken or may be it is just a sub-conscious control on Corypheus' part because he just gives off this general signal (like an arch-demon) that calls to any warden in the vicinity. So in some ways Justice helps both Anders and Hawke by emerging when he does because it makes them aware of the influence of Corypheus on him and so Anders is able to resist this later on. I think at that point he is doing it with Justice's help rather than fighting them both as he suggests is the case before the seal is broken. When you think about it, Anders would be a lot closer to Corypheus when we "kill" him than either Larius or Janeka, so he ought to have jumped to him but instead bypasses him for one of the other two. The reason Corypheus is not able to take-over Anders is because Justice is protecting him from possession, just as faith spirits are said to do with Seekers. So it is a good thing he has Justice inside of him.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2020 17:46:39 GMT
Okay so I've always thought this song by Muse was a perfect anthem for Anders but now I've found a version with the original vocals overlaid an acoustic backing track, which fits the Thedas setting far better than the electronic original.
Also I made an interesting discovery in the biography of one of the DAMP characters, Rion. He is said to have been a Circle mage from the Ostwick Circle (which I believe is where the human mage Trevelyan is meant to have come from). Anyway, it says about Rion that "he was one of the first mages in the Ostwick Circle to join the mage rebellion after the incident in Kirkwall". So he didn't wait for the rising at the White Spire but rose up as direct result of what went down in Kirkwall. It also says that" when the Templars abandoned the Chantry to pursue the mages rising up in the Freemarches and around Thedas, it became open war." This entry is rather peculiar as the writer either wasn't aware of the fact that events didn't follow the epilogue to DA2 but those of Asunder, or in fact there was an initial rebellion in the Freemarches straight after the events of Kirkwall.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 19, 2020 17:56:48 GMT
Okay so I've always thought this song by Muse was a perfect anthem for Anders but now I've found a version with the original vocals overlaid an acoustic backing track, which fits the Thedas setting far better than the electronic original.
Also I made an interesting discovery in the biography of one of the DAMP characters, Rion. He is said to have been a Circle mage from the Ostwick Circle (which I believe is where the human mage Trevelyan is meant to have come from). Anyway, it says about Rion that "he was one of the first mages in the Ostwick Circle to join the mage rebellion after the incident in Kirkwall". So he didn't wait for the rising at the White Spire but rose up as direct result of what went down in Kirkwall. It also says that" when the Templars abandoned the Chantry to pursue the mages rising up in the Freemarches and around Thedas, it became open war." This entry is rather peculiar as the writer either wasn't aware of the fact that events didn't follow the epilogue to DA2 but those of Asunder, or in fact there was an initial rebellion in the Freemarches straight after the events of Kirkwall. So: Ostwick was not that neutral – it depends, what you want to see! Nice vague set up... (I never played the multi.) (Perfect song to Anders!)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2020 18:41:25 GMT
So: Ostwick was not that neutral – it depends, what you want to see! Nice vague set up... (I never played the multi.) I've never played multi-player but I did read the entries for the various characters in WoT2. Rion is apparently of noble background but it is hinted he doesn't get on well with his family. Perhaps he feels they should have supported him more to stay out of the Circle. It would seem the only good thing he could say about the Ostwick Circle is that it was better than the Gallows for being at least a hundred miles from Meredith. Still if he did have a noble background that might account for him being given enough freedom that he could get away once he decided to join the rebellion in the Freemarches. It also says that he "once believed there was no compromise", which sounds like he was just the sort of mage Anders would approve of but as the conflict progressed and more and more lives were lost, not just among the mages and Templars, he began wonder if compromise was needed and when the Conclave ended all hope for a peaceful resolution, he was one of the first mages to join the Inquisition. So I approve of him too as a mage who was willing to fight for his freedom but not sell out to Tevinter like Fiona did. He is also said to have a self depreciating humour and is known for laughing at himself. I think Anders would have liked him.
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Post by Rascoth on Oct 19, 2020 19:16:41 GMT
Rion is quite an interesting character. And he has lines in DAIMP that suggest his pro-freedom mindset: "When this is over, I hope we mages are given some freedom. After all, isn’t the point to change things?" (all characters have answer to that) Interestingly enough, if you have another Rion in party, he answers: "Well you know what happened after Kirkwall. We have to approach this carefully." There's also his not so pro-Chantry response to Belinda: Belinda: I met the Divine Justinia only once before she died. She was lovely. Rion: She could’ve done more for the mages, though. And his absurd line when idle for too long: "Shame the Divine's hat didn't protect her from the explosion huh? What? Too soon?" Definitely one of my favourite DAIMP characters personality-wise (his gameplay is also quite cool). And yup, mage Trevelyan is also from Ostwick (just like always wonderful Linnea).
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Post by Catilina on Oct 19, 2020 19:16:48 GMT
So: Ostwick was not that neutral – it depends, what you want to see! Nice vague set up... (I never played the multi.) I've never played multi-player but I did read the entries for the various characters in WoT2. Rion is apparently of noble background but it is hinted he doesn't get on well with his family. Perhaps he feels they should have supported him more to stay out of the Circle. It would seem the only good thing he could say about the Ostwick Circle is that it was better than the Gallows for being at least a hundred miles from Meredith. Still if he did have a noble background that might account for him being given enough freedom that he could get away once he decided to join the rebellion in the Freemarches. It also says that he "once believed there was no compromise", which sounds like he was just the sort of mage Anders would approve of but as the conflict progressed and more and more lives were lost, not just among the mages and Templars, he began wonder if compromise was needed and when the Conclave ended all hope for a peaceful resolution, he was one of the first mages to join the Inquisition. So I approve of him too as a mage who was willing to fight for his freedom but not sell out to Tevinter like Fiona did. He is also said to have a self depreciating humour and is known for laughing at himself. I think Anders would have liked him. Fiona mentioned the Conclave – she was willing to negotiate. She said, the hope died in the explosion of the Conclave. I'm still sure she was tricked by magic (and Gaider confirmed it – with allow people to still believe the opposite). So Ostwick: we have all opinions, canonically... like a smorgasboard: 1. Vivienne in the base game, who suggests a decent place, with her best friend a nice, wise lady, a mentor... (possible to the inquisitor as well...) 2. Rion – who doesn't think Ostwick was much better than Kirkwall – but this character's hiding in the multiplayer. 3. Josephine's background choice, where the inquisitor can pick: it was okay (I liked the quiet or miss my friends)/boring/ I hated the confinement...
So, everyone can pick their own – but hardly can be true both...
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 20, 2020 0:57:20 GMT
"When this is over, I hope we mages are given some freedom. After all, isn’t the point to change things?" (all characters have answer to that) Interestingly enough, if you have another Rion in party, he answers: "Well you know what happened after Kirkwall. We have to approach this carefully." Meh... sounds as even this dude is either thinking of some backdoor pro-circle rhetoric or at least rolling over to a Chantry group calling the shots again.
I'm still sure she was tricked by magic (and Gaider confirmed it – with allow people to still believe the opposite). What did he say specifically? Can you link this? I mean, Gaider usually seems to have had a pretty narrow circle-focused view on DA's magic in general and at times apparently ranted that players don't take "mage doom" seriously enough.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 20, 2020 1:46:23 GMT
"When this is over, I hope we mages are given some freedom. After all, isn’t the point to change things?" (all characters have answer to that) Interestingly enough, if you have another Rion in party, he answers: "Well you know what happened after Kirkwall. We have to approach this carefully." Meh... sounds as even this dude is either thinking of some backdoor pro-circle rhetoric or at least rolling over to a Chantry group calling the shots again.
I'm still sure she was tricked by magic (and Gaider confirmed it – with allow people to still believe the opposite). What did he say specifically? Can you link this? I mean, Gaider usually seems to have had a pretty narrow circle-focused view on DA's magic in general and at times apparently ranted that players don't take "mage doom" seriously enough. I found it – vague, as always:
I would rather say: Gaider wanted people to see better the danger of magic, and to show a point to the Circles as well. Hepler wanted to change Justice to a random demon in Anders' head in a dlc, when Hawke would meet with Justice in Kristoff's body (really, that body already rotten...) to prove: the demons are tricky... But it would kill the whole brilliant character –two characters and their arc in fact–, with his/their every explanation, and a big part of the DA2's story... just to prove: the mages are dangerous.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 20, 2020 8:03:24 GMT
Okay, so that is helpful as I'd never seen that Tweet but know people had said before that blood magic was being used on Fiona. It would explain her rubbing her head and looking confused and the mage standing with her looking slightly spaced out throughout the conversation. However, they negated that explanation with all the time magic rubbish and Fiona trying to explain away their decision to side with Tevinter on the number of Venatori sympathises in their numbers. You see when I turned up at Redcliffe, Fiona seemed not to remember our previous meeting and was tamely taking orders from Alexius, my immediate reaction was to think blood magic mind control was in play. That was a perfectly reasonable explanation for everything that had occurred. Then I met Dorian and he blew the whole rational explanation to pieces. The daft part was that even the whole time travel thing could be explained as Alexius controlling your mind with blood magic, hence Solas suggesting afterwards that it had been a "trick of the Fade". The only problem was that Dorian had to have been in on it for that to be the case. Mind you one of the team did suggest that necromancy was just a form of blood magic (have no idea why) so theoretically Dorian could have been countering Alexius' blood magic with his own.
That Tweet does highlight the problem I have with their writing after DAO. I think in that game we did get a balanced approach to the arguments for and against mages running around outside the Circles. The Templars did seem decent enough people for the most part, certainly not obviously abusive, and I actually sympathised with their position of being controlled by the Chantry through their lyrium fix. To be honest the Chantry always seemed the villain of the piece to me in DAO with their rhetoric and both mages and Templars were their victims.
Then came DA2 and everything was over the top and it was harder for me to believe any of it. It is also clear that Hepler was pushing a particular agenda with Anders that was continued on by the team subsequently that made him very much the villain of the piece and the poster boy for why mages shouldn't be free. All through DAI every time Varric gets the opportunity to denigrate Anders he does and he is constantly referred to as an abomination. Technically, in Chantry terms he is, but Wynne was also an abomination, so now is Evangeline, and even Cassandra may be an abomination because otherwise I fail to see how a non-mage receives blood mage like abilities through a a spirit simply "touching" their mind. Also the only way I can see for them to be protected from blood magic mind control or possession is through having a spirit guardian, just as is the case with Anders.
The more I think about it, the more I feel the labeling of Justice inside Anders as Vengeance is completely wrong. This was probably a hangover from when Hepler wanted it to be just some random demon that was fooling everyone, including Anders. As we have previously discussed on this thread, every action of Justice when he appears to take control is when Anders is feeling distressed or under threat and so Justice is protecting him or when Justice is in the Fade and sees Hawke trying to commit an injustice (giving Feynriel to Torpor). Even the incident with Ella follows so closely upon our fight with the Templars that it is understandable that Justice hears someone accuse him of being a demon and just assumes it is another Templar. When people are angry they do sometimes lash out against innocent people without intending to.
The only time I think that Justice may have truly turned into a demon is if Hawke forces him to act against his nature by making Anders side with the Templars against the mages. Killing the mages for something Anders did is a monstrous injustice. Yet even then he doesn't take control of Anders as you would think would be the case if he had truly become Vengeance. Unless the demon has now totally embraced the Templar cause by taking vengeance against all mages for the bombing of the Chantry.
To be honest I thought Anders/Justice was a great counterpoint to all the true abominations we kept encountering throughout DA2 where the individuals had been totally taken over by the spirit within. Clearly it is possible for a union between mortal and spirit that can be positive. Yet for some reason the writers were only willing to allow this to be the case where a faith spirit is involved. Why is this only possible if the person involved is faithful to the Chantry version of Andrastrianism? Surely anyone with strong faith should be able to attract such a spirit, whether it is faith in the Old Gods, the Creators or the Forgotten Ones? Otherwise the writers are contradicting their claim never to want to confirm the existence of the Maker because the faith spirits are only attracted to those who believe in him and no other.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2020 3:47:03 GMT
"When this is over, I hope we mages are given some freedom. After all, isn’t the point to change things?" (all characters have answer to that) Interestingly enough, if you have another Rion in party, he answers: "Well you know what happened after Kirkwall. We have to approach this carefully." Meh... sounds as even this dude is either thinking of some backdoor pro-circle rhetoric or at least rolling over to a Chantry group calling the shots again.
I'm still sure she was tricked by magic (and Gaider confirmed it – with allow people to still believe the opposite). What did he say specifically? Can you link this? I mean, Gaider usually seems to have had a pretty narrow circle-focused view on DA's magic in general and at times apparently ranted that players don't take "mage doom" seriously enough. I thought about this as well. WHO will give them freedom? The Maker? They should ask for it, and it will be given? But he at least fought their freedom, sadly lost his faith – I don't really wonder. The whole Inquisition about that "the (unlawful!) violence is bad" – they should ask for some reform". Again: at least this one was a rebel mage, and not painted as mad, idiot or evil... AND also: someone against that popular stuff, that Ostwick is a great place to mages, only a bit boring. True, he had to say that thing about the "given freedom" (I'm glad at least, he didn't say, they have to deserve!), and KIRKWALL, of course...
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 7:46:35 GMT
True, he had to say that thing about the "given freedom" (I'm glad at least, he didn't say, they have to deserve!), I think that comment by Gaider about people not taking "mage doom" seriously, may be the reason the narrative started to shift in DAI to showing that any group of mages banded together can't be trusted and all the "good" trustworthy mages having abandoned the rebellion either to strike out on their own or join the Inquisition. Look at how they dealt with the conduct of the rebel mages in DAI. The monarch gave them sanctuary with no strings attached, so clearly supporting the idea that mages should have their freedom, and they have the mages betray them. Then we have all the revelations about the ancient elves to support the idea that any group of powerful mages is going to take control over lesser citizens and then ultimately become corrupt tyrants. Even Solas, who appeared such a champion of the idea of a powerful mage with a social conscience who didn't automatically want to lord it over others, turned out to be no better than any of the other abusers of their power, using magic to get what he wants no matter the cost to everyone else. In fact Gaider started this sort of trend in Asunder where even Wynne started to succumb to temptation and had to be stopped by the Templar Evangeline. Clearly the underlying message is that the Chantry were justified in their stance that mages can't be trusted without Templar supervision, which is rather disappointing. The fact that at the end of Trespasser, no matter which Divine you get, the Orlesian noble supported Circle is shown as gaining the upper hand, to me is a clear indication that the writers are planning to negate our choices eventually. This is reinforced by the fact that they are very vague about how the system works under Leliana. There is a free College of Enchanters but what does that mean exactly? How do they communicate with one another and how are young mages trained? Anders never supported the idea of a free for all where young mages are left to shift for themselves. He always advocated proper training but once undertaken the mage was free to operate without restrictions. What I would like to see would be the introduction of a state where mages do not misuse their power and work with non-mages rather than simply dominate them. At present the nearest to this idea is Rivain but the Seers are merely tolerated by those in power who support the Chantry. I suppose you could also argue that Nevarra and the Mortalitassi are another example but they are very much connected with the ruling elite and often members of their families, plus they confined themselves to the Grand Necropolis, so that doesn't really count. The idea that the monarch of Ferelden supported the idea of free mages would have been a great starting point for establishing a state where mages operate as part of the community and are trusted not to abuse their power but sadly the writers clearly do not want that as a reality.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 21, 2020 16:49:09 GMT
1) Mind you one of the team did suggest that necromancy was just a form of blood magic (have no idea why) so theoretically Dorian could have been countering Alexius' blood magic with his own. 2) That Tweet does highlight the problem I have with their writing after DAO. I think in that game we did get a balanced approach to the arguments for and against mages running around outside the Circles. The Templars did seem decent enough people for the most part, certainly not obviously abusive, and I actually sympathised with their position of being controlled by the Chantry through their lyrium fix. To be honest the Chantry always seemed the villain of the piece to me in DAO with their rhetoric and both mages and Templars were their victims. 3) Then came DA2 and everything was over the top and it was harder for me to believe any of it. It is also clear that Hepler was pushing a particular agenda with Anders that was continued on by the team subsequently that made him very much the villain of the piece and the poster boy for why mages shouldn't be free. All through DAI every time Varric gets the opportunity to denigrate Anders he does and he is constantly referred to as an abomination. Technically, in Chantry terms he is, but Wynne was also an abomination, so now is Evangeline, and even Cassandra may be an abomination because otherwise I fail to see how a non-mage receives blood mage like abilities through a a spirit simply "touching" their mind. Also the only way I can see for them to be protected from blood magic mind control or possession is through having a spirit guardian, just as is the case with Anders. The more I think about it, the more I feel the labeling of Justice inside Anders as Vengeance is completely wrong. This was probably a hangover from when Hepler wanted it to be just some random demon that was fooling everyone, including Anders. As we have previously discussed on this thread, every action of Justice when he appears to take control is when Anders is feeling distressed or under threat and so Justice is protecting him or when Justice is in the Fade and sees Hawke trying to commit an injustice (giving Feynriel to Torpor). Even the incident with Ella follows so closely upon our fight with the Templars that it is understandable that Justice hears someone accuse him of being a demon and just assumes it is another Templar. When people are angry they do sometimes lash out against innocent people without intending to. The only time I think that Justice may have truly turned into a demon is if Hawke forces him to act against his nature by making Anders side with the Templars against the mages. Killing the mages for something Anders did is a monstrous injustice. Yet even then he doesn't take control of Anders as you would think would be the case if he had truly become Vengeance. Unless the demon has now totally embraced the Templar cause by taking vengeance against all mages for the bombing of the Chantry. 1) That was Mary Kirby in a random twitter post if I recall right. And it is why I don't like Bioware personnel answering lore-important questions much on social media. Besides it making no sense given Dorian's arc in DAI of course.
2) Well, I thought they were arrogant asses ever since Greagoir's speech in the magi origin. But that's just a symptom of chantric superiority complex. 3) In communities with a lot of fans having disabilities, Hepler isn't very popular. She seems to use "bipolar" whenever she seems to mean "crazy" in a sense of mental issues, which raises a ton of issues apart from the regular ridicule Anders (and Merrill and Velanna and Sera) are subjected to, like Sebastian's condescending "So your "Tranquil Solution" was hardly the holocaust you imagined." Toolset notes about Kalah And her infamous "bipolar terrorist" I don't even use "abomination" anymore these days to be honest, given what a loaded term it is, intentionally, unless the possessed individual is clearly chaotic evilly attacking everything. To be fair, once I stripped all the blather about the SoTs away, I saw them as nothing more than Spirit Warriors using an overly elaborate do-or-die ritual to attract one specific type of spirit, with the added bonus of that singular focus turning them into basically brainwashed zealots. For hair-splitting reasons, I wonder where the definition for "possessed corpse" starts. Were Wynne or Evangeline dead for some time? How long? How long it takes? Are they really more like an Arcane Horror/Revenant example now? I know I have been bitching about this for ages and people on uBSN don't seem to like it much, but it always strikes me as this ugly notion of "(Not!)Christianity is the only valid faith" being common with some writers on the meta-level, even if unconsciously. Reminds me of that one article whch quotes Gaider talking about the handling of faith in DAI and all Gaider tends to address (apart from the usual vagueness) is Andrastianism this, Maker that. No word about the issues a Dalish might face. “[Faith] is indeed something we wanted to explore, so that meant setting up a world where the big questions don’t have ready answers. Nobody knows for certain what happens after you die. Nobody knows for certain if the Maker exists, or what the truth of the ancient past really was. There are different viewpoints, and we wanted to make sure that each of them could be held by a reasonable person.”
“We assume the role of whoever’s writing that lore and colour their perception of events with their culture and beliefs… as well as an understanding that, like a game of telephone tag, things get misinterpreted and misunderstood the more they’re related. It makes it easy for us to maintain a bit of mystery in our lore, and the only time we’ve had to consciously stop something from going into the game is when it would answer something too definitively. That’s not how history works.“
“We didn’t want to force players into the mindset that their characters must be faithful or become faithful in the course of the story – not everyone’s going to think that’s fun, and it would also fly in the face of the ambiguity we’ve built up in Dragon Age’s systems of faith. So, for those people, we wanted to provide the ability to question what was going on and maintain a healthy level of cynicism and that this would be okay. On the other hand, we also didn’t want to shoot down the idea of faith as a positive thing. It would be a very easy thing to present faithful people as being gullible dupes, or suggest that faith itself serves no real purpose.”source I especially laugh about the underlined part, given how badly DAI just shits on the Dalish and their beliefs on a near-universal level. Yes, I'm pretty much a dirty infidel by the standards of the established guilt-trippers (very unattractive concept to me ), but faith is faith. Doesn't matter if it targets my camel plushies or some omnipotent whatever. As of late, I actually have come to like the idea of my Hawke becoming a secret Old God worshipper of sorts, as much as the game might allow such headcanon. Kirkwall is quite rife with Tevinter stuff, so we could have either Razikale or Zazikel (juicy "Freedom" vs. "Chaos" concept). Heck, Andoral's portfolio is apparently seen as "Unity" by some as opposed to "Slavery". Meh... sounds as even this dude is either thinking of some backdoor pro-circle rhetoric or at least rolling over to a Chantry group calling the shots again.
What did he say specifically? Can you link this? I mean, Gaider usually seems to have had a pretty narrow circle-focused view on DA's magic in general and at times apparently ranted that players don't take "mage doom" seriously enough.
I thought about this as well. WHO will give them freedom? The Maker? They should ask for it, and it will be given? But he at least fought their freedom, sadly lost his faith – I don't really wonder. The whole Inquisition about that "the (unlawful!) violence is bad" – they should ask for some reform". Again: at least this one was a rebel mage, and not painted as mad, idiot or evil... AND also: someone against that popular stuff, that Ostwick is a great place to mages, only a bit boring. True, he had to say that thing about the "given freedom" (I'm glad at least, he didn't say, they have to deserve!), and KIRKWALL, of course... Eh, I pretty much agree with the notion that freedom is never granted (especially not by a bunch of asshats who benefit greatly from the oppression they create and try to shed any responsibility by some vague blather about Divine Entitlement a.k.a. "Maker's Will"), it is won. That's how I interpreted Fiona's (in)famous "Fuck the Divine" line - don't rely on someone else doing it, especially not Chantry officials. Besides, can't argue with dogma. The "unlawful violence" thing also gets me, like, violence or even justified anger is only allowed if it comes from the powers-that-be. How dares a discriminated group be upset? True, he had to say that thing about the "given freedom" (I'm glad at least, he didn't say, they have to deserve!), 1) I think that comment by Gaider about people not taking "mage doom" seriously, may be the reason the narrative started to shift in DAI to showing that any group of mages banded together can't be trusted and all the "good" trustworthy mages having abandoned the rebellion either to strike out on their own or join the Inquisition. Look at how they dealt with the conduct of the rebel mages in DAI. The monarch gave them sanctuary with no strings attached, so clearly supporting the idea that mages should have their freedom, and they have the mages betray them. Then we have all the revelations about the ancient elves to support the idea that any group of powerful mages is going to take control over lesser citizens and then ultimately become corrupt tyrants. Even Solas, who appeared such a champion of the idea of a powerful mage with a social conscience who didn't automatically want to lord it over others, turned out to be no better than any of the other abusers of their power, using magic to get what he wants no matter the cost to everyone else. 2) In fact Gaider started this sort of trend in Asunder where even Wynne started to succumb to temptation and had to be stopped by the Templar Evangeline. Clearly the underlying message is that the Chantry were justified in their stance that mages can't be trusted without Templar supervision, which is rather disappointing. The fact that at the end of Trespasser, no matter which Divine you get, the Orlesian noble supported Circle is shown as gaining the upper hand, to me is a clear indication that the writers are planning to negate our choices eventually. This is reinforced by the fact that they are very vague about how the system works under Leliana. There is a free College of Enchanters but what does that mean exactly? How do they communicate with one another and how are young mages trained? Anders never supported the idea of a free for all where young mages are left to shift for themselves. He always advocated proper training but once undertaken the mage was free to operate without restrictions. 3) What I would like to see would be the introduction of a state where mages do not misuse their power and work with non-mages rather than simply dominate them. At present the nearest to this idea is Rivain but the Seers are merely tolerated by those in power who support the Chantry. I suppose you could also argue that Nevarra and the Mortalitassi are another example but they are very much connected with the ruling elite and often members of their families, plus they confined themselves to the Grand Necropolis, so that doesn't really count. The idea that the monarch of Ferelden supported the idea of free mages would have been a great starting point for establishing a state where mages operate as part of the community and are trusted not to abuse their power but sadly the writers clearly do not want that as a reality. 1) True. Also, for extra whammy, it just had to be Ferelden, given th attachment most players seem to have to it and the DAO cast. 2) Ugh, I mostly got that book to amuse myself, but I'm stuck at the tavern at the moment.
It is not just disappointing, I find it disturbing if someone wants to argue for the need of essentially infantilising people into the "care" of kinda brutal 2holy warrior" zealots. Like Evangeline reacts to Pharamond by beating him. Very indicative of Chantry attitude in general. Also, Adrian is quite one of the more sensible people here (as opposed to "be a good prisoner and the templars might not kill you today"-Wynne and Rhys, whose viewpoint changes every chapter. Is he some sort of Bioware self-insert?), so Adrian needs to be derided as "immature", "unreasonable", "emotional" or "crrrraaaazy". Like, obvious parallel to Anders. Oh... and remebering some older post of yours - "Inquisition conscripting taking the rebel mages as prisoners = best apparent outcome". Setting epilogue meta-knowledge aside, that going wrong is a tad bit more likely than every mage suddenly detonating in a nuclear explosion, I dare say. But no, the writing needed to shoehorn something in again.
3) Who wants to take bets that DA4 might shit on the Seers and Mortalitasi as well? Reminds me of the foreword of WoT1 (page 6) by Gaider:
"How might Christianity be different if, instead of Jesus, it had been founded by Joan of Arc?" My personal comment: Ugh, yeah, it also went to shit, perhaps even quicker and worse than the real-world inspiration?
"I wanted to subvert some of the common fantasy tropes while still keeping conventions recognizeable - [...] mages who were feared for good reason." My personal comment: Yup, doesn't really justify what a bunch of entitled zealots do to them though. But yeah, we have to shit on any possible alternative (see what I call the "Mineave BS") so apparently that helps for the Chantry's viewpoint not look like the fuming pile of feces it is? Sorry for the word choices. I guess I'm in shitposting mood right now.
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Post by Rascoth on Oct 21, 2020 17:15:40 GMT
For hair-splitting reasons, I wonder where the definition for "possessed corpse" starts. Were Wynne or Evangeline dead for some time? How long? How long it takes? Are they really more like an Arcane Horror/Revenant example now? Now I'll think about it for waaaaaay too long. Thanks
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 21, 2020 17:28:04 GMT
I don't even use "abomination" anymore these days to be honest, given what a loaded term it is, intentionally, unless the possessed individual is clearly chaotic evilly attacking everything. To be fair, once I stripped all the blather about the SoTs away, I saw them as nothing more than Spirit Warriors using an overly elaborate do-or-die ritual to attract one specific type of spirit, with the added bonus of that singular focus turning them into basically brainwashed zealots. For hair-splitting reasons, I wonder where the definition for "possessed corpse" starts. Were Wynne or Evangeline dead for some time? How long? How long it takes? Are they really more like an Arcane Horror/Revenant example now? Same here...I think one of the Warden's possible replies to Wynne sums it up pretty well "if one retains their humanity one is not an abomination" both Wynne and Anders retain their humanity, so shouldn't be classified as abominations
if looking at examples where one does loose (or start to loose) their humanity, Connor only retains small shreds of his humanity which surfaces only sparingly...another example is Evelina from DA2, she has lost her identity and humanity. But...the instances we see of people losing themselves and becoming abominations in DA2...those are sparingly, and most stem from fear. Thrask's daughter turns into an abomination because she's afraid, Evelina is fueled by both anger and fear...the mage you encounter during the epilogue...again fueled by fear. Even Orsino himself (however stupid that ending is of itself) is fueled by fear and desperation in that very moment.
I don't think Wynne was dead very long before her guardian spirit finds her, same with Evangeline who Wynne transfers her spirit into. However, both arcane horror/revenant are corpses that have been dead for a while, and have already started to decompose. So in their case, I don't think they are neither one of those or an abomination
also...totally unrelated, but can I point out I love the armor designs for the undead?
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 21, 2020 17:30:47 GMT
Didn't they already do that in Inquisition codex and Tevinter Nights?
I mean...Solas is totally angry at the latter for them doing their religious practices of binding spirits to corpses...yet is quite calm about the former during Cole's personal quest if you seek out a talisman to keep Cole from being bound.
(also, baby turtle )
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 17:47:12 GMT
I don't even use "abomination" anymore these days to be honest, given what a loaded term it is, intentionally, unless the possessed individual is clearly chaotic evilly attacking everything. To be fair, once I stripped all the blather about the SoTs away, I saw them as nothing more than Spirit Warriors using an overly elaborate do-or-die ritual to attract one specific type of spirit, with the added bonus of that singular focus turning them into basically brainwashed zealots. For hair-splitting reasons, I wonder where the definition for "possessed corpse" starts. Were Wynne or Evangeline dead for some time? How long? How long it takes? Are they really more like an Arcane Horror/Revenant example now? Same here...I think one of the Warden's possible replies to Wynne sums it up pretty well "if one retains their humanity one is not an abomination" both Wynne and Anders retain their humanity, so shouldn't be classified as abominations Anders mass murdered innocent people. He did not retain his humanity. Less controversial, it depends on which Anders we are talking about since if rivaled doesn’t Justice/Vengeance take control of him to do it? If so then that’s him being an abomination.
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Post by Rascoth on Oct 21, 2020 17:51:19 GMT
Didn't they already do that in Inquisition codex and Tevinter Nights?
I mean...Solas is totally angry at the latter for them doing their religious practices of binding spirits to corpses...yet is quite calm about the former during Cole's personal quest if you seek out a talisman to keep Cole from being bound.
(also, baby turtle ) They can always do much, much more. Unfortunately
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 18:03:45 GMT
Reminds me of the foreword of WoT1 (page 6) by Gaider:
"How might Christianity be different if, instead of Jesus, it had been founded by Joan of Arc?" This is the problem I have always had with it, that essentially they tried to do a copy of Christianity with Joan of Arc, except Christianity without Jesus isn't Christianity. Their pseudo Christianity with Joan of Arc is at its core the complete opposite of the real thing. Essentially in real world version, Jesus dying is all part of god's plan to bring humanity closer to god. You spread the faith so everyone hears the good news that they too can be closer to god. That's a positive message. In the Thedas version, Andraste dying is not part of his plan and as a result he abandons humanity (and the other races) but if they try hard enough to encourage other people to worship a god who doesn't care, may be he'll forgive them. Keep on Chanting! Why? What real incentive is there to believe? My elven viewpoint, before all the revelations that my gods aren't really gods, was that at least they don't answer me because they can't rather than because they won't. I also had a degree of sympathy for the ancient humans who did worship him and were having the stuffing kicked out of them by the Old God worshipers, who when they asked for a bit of help, the best he could come up with was "anoint the fields". Okay, so we've stopped our fields from catching alight, which is helpful, but now how do we stop your worshipers from dying? Nothing. So the King of the Planascene is left with a choice of everyone dying, so the Maker won't have any worshipers left anyway, or opting for help from a more constructive alternative Old God deity (demon), a condition of which is they don't worship the Maker anymore. He goes with the latter and his enemies are struck down. Understandably he keeps to his bargain with the Old God and from that day on they no longer worship the Maker. Millennia pass and the Maker finally convinces someone else to worship him but when she really needs his help, the best he can come up with is (allegedly) encouraging her enemy to give her a quick death. Then, ignoring the fact that Shartan and his elves did try to save her, he pushes off again to sulk, essentially abandoning those worshipers who are still faithful to him. Then Sebastian says that people should be grateful he didn't just zap them. To be honest I don't think he's capable of zapping them. Anyway, that's enough of the religious dogma. It is Anders' thread after all, although Anders is Andrastrian, the Chantry influence on him being very strong. Personally I'd like to discover more about the Rivaini religion where they believe their god and the universe are one and the same, or even follow the Avvar religion where they freely admit their gods are spirits, because at least that makes sense to me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 18:10:18 GMT
Same here...I think one of the Warden's possible replies to Wynne sums it up pretty well "if one retains their humanity one is not an abomination" both Wynne and Anders retain their humanity, so shouldn't be classified as abominations This is my view. You also have to look at Anders from the point he joined with Justice, not just one incident 7 years later. Yes, he killed those Wardens but that was self defence. When he got to Kirkwall he spent the next 6 years running a free clinic to bring healing to the poor. That is not an abomination. He also did his best during that time to help mages escape the Gallows and promote his agenda by peaceful means. It is only after 3 years of Meredith running the city and conditions getting progressively worse for all its citizens, not just mages that he finally resorts to violence. That also seems a very "human" response to events. He might well still have done that without a spirit inside of him. I mean...Solas is totally angry at the latter for them doing their religious practices of binding spirits to corpses.. What really annoyed me was Solas' inconsistency when it came to the Inquisitor learning Necromancy. Cole makes it quite clear that spirits, even if the majority are only wisps, are being harmed. In fact wisps do have a degree of sentience. Solas in fact is his usual equivocating self because he qualifies his comment by saying it is okay provided no intelligent spirits are harmed, knowing that in fact that is true, but clearly not wanting to show his hand too much to the Inquisitor. He does chew Dorian out about binding spirits as slavery though, so his attitude to the Mortalitasi in Tevinter Nights was consistent with that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 18:19:19 GMT
Anders mass murdered innocent people. He did not retain his humanity. By that argument Meredith, Cullen, Carver (if a Templar), Hawke, Varric and anyone else who supports annulling the Circle have also lost their humanity. The majority of those mages were not guilty of anything other than having magic and yet they slaughtered them all (bar a couple you can persuade them to spare if you feel like it). There would have been far more mages in the Gallows than innocent people killed by Anders' action.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 18:31:22 GMT
Anders mass murdered innocent people. He did not retain his humanity. By that argument Meredith, Cullen, Carver (if a Templar), Hawke, Varric and anyone else who supports annulling the Circle have also lost their humanity. The majority of those mages were not guilty of anything other than having magic and yet they slaughtered them all (bar a couple you can persuade them to spare if you feel like it). There would have been far more mages in the Gallows than innocent people killed by Anders' action. First, every mage killed in the Gallows is blood on Anders's hands as well. As well as any other person killed in the fighting. And anyone in the war he wanted to start. Second, regarding your argument that those who commit Annulments on an innocent Circle also being those who lost their humanity, I agree.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 18:32:18 GMT
In communities with a lot of fans having disabilities, Hepler isn't very popular. She seems to use "bipolar" whenever she seems to mean "crazy" in a sense of mental issues, which raises a ton of issues I wasn't aware until quite recently that she used mental illness as inspiration for Anders/Justice, which annoyed the hell out of me I can tell you but also did me a favour as it made me take a fresh look at Anders, play both Awakening and DA2 again and here I am, an Anders convert.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 21, 2020 18:41:54 GMT
Anders mass murdered innocent people. He did not retain his humanity. Less controversial, it depends on which Anders we are talking about since if rivaled doesn’t Justice/Vengeance take control of him to do it? If so then that’s him being an abomination. I'm not condoning mass murder in any way
However...technically Anders is still in control of himself if he does this as Hawke's friend...so in this instance he still has his humanity on rivalry though, Justice/Vengeance takes over making Anders loose control of himself and his humanity...so here he'd be defined by being an abomination at least if we go by the reply the Warden can give to the Wynne
They can always do much, much more. Unfortunately Humpf, I'm still going to play a mage in the next game They can't win from me! *cackles evilly* <abbr>1) </abbr>This is my view. You also have to look at Anders from the point he joined with Justice, not just one incident 7 years later. Yes, he killed those Wardens but that was self defence. When he got to Kirkwall he spent the next 6 years running a free clinic to bring healing to the poor. That is not an abomination. He also did his best during that time to help mages escape the Gallows and promote his agenda by peaceful means. It is only after 3 years of Meredith running the city and conditions getting progressively worse for all its citizens, not just mages that he finally resorts to violence. That also seems a very "human" response to events. He might well still have done that without a spirit inside of him. 2) What really annoyed me was Solas' inconsistency when it came to the Inquisitor learning Necromancy. Cole makes it quite clear that spirits, even if the majority are only wisps, are being harmed. In fact wisps do have a degree of sentience. Solas in fact is his usual equivocating self because he qualifies his comment by saying it is okay provided no intelligent spirits are harmed, knowing that in fact that is true, but clearly not wanting to show his hand too much to the Inquisitor. 1) During Awakening Anders seems adamant about the Circle splitting from the Chantry (he says as much during the quest Wynne can give you to find Ines) Anders: pull away entirely? I hate Chantry oversight as much as the next mage, but they cannot just decide to leave! This is a recipe for disaster though 7 years later (most of it caused by what he has witnessed and endured in Kirkwall) Anders: ...know what? Screw this *puts on sunglasses and blows up Chantry*
2) well...he is known as the trickster god after all
By Cole's words all spirits are sentient, so indeed what Solas says would be wrong. This...also makes me very curious about what type of mage specialties we'll get in DA4 I mean...Blood Mage could make a comeback, 'cause while it can be taught by demons it's not required...I'd love for Spirit Healer to come back as well since most spirit healers we've seen so far have had the willing cooperation of a spirit to do their trade. Then again, if Solas gets the monopoly on spirits...I'm wondering what will and won't be possible
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