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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2020 18:46:56 GMT
Same here...I think one of the Warden's possible replies to Wynne sums it up pretty well "if one retains their humanity one is not an abomination" both Wynne and Anders retain their humanity, so shouldn't be classified as abominations Anders mass murdered innocent people. He did not retain his humanity. Less controversial, it depends on which Anders we are talking about since if rivaled doesn’t Justice/Vengeance take control of him to do it? If so then that’s him being an abomination. There is no two Anders. Anders very much kept his humanity.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 18:59:11 GMT
Anders mass murdered innocent people. He did not retain his humanity. Less controversial, it depends on which Anders we are talking about since if rivaled doesn’t Justice/Vengeance take control of him to do it? If so then that’s him being an abomination. I'm not condoning mass murder in any way
However...technically Anders is still in control of himself if he does this as Hawke's friend...so in this instance he still has his humanity on rivalry though, Justice/Vengeance takes over making Anders loose control of himself and his humanity...so here he'd be defined by being an abomination at least if we go by the reply the Warden can give to the Wynne Never said you did. Just arguing that anyone who murders innocent people lost their humanity. Okay, thanks for answering.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2020 18:59:25 GMT
By that argument Meredith, Cullen, Carver (if a Templar), Hawke, Varric and anyone else who supports annulling the Circle have also lost their humanity. The majority of those mages were not guilty of anything other than having magic and yet they slaughtered them all (bar a couple you can persuade them to spare if you feel like it). There would have been far more mages in the Gallows than innocent people killed by Anders' action. First, every mage killed in the Gallows is blood on Anders's hands as well. As well as any other person killed in the fighting. And anyone in the war he wanted to start. Second, regarding your argument that those who commit Annulments on an innocent Circle also being those who lost their humanity, I agree. No. Every mage's blood on Meredith's hand. Your view is absolutely wrong. Define the "innocent" Circle...!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 19:01:49 GMT
I don't think he'll have a monopoly on them. We already know some spirits will oppose what he is doing, for example Cole even if reverted back to Compassion still goes against him. Likewise, I can see some demons siding against him, though for more selfish reasons than the spirits who oppose him have.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 19:03:04 GMT
First, every mage killed in the Gallows is blood on Anders's hands as well. As well as any other person killed in the fighting. And anyone in the war he wanted to start. Second, regarding your argument that those who commit Annulments on an innocent Circle also being those who lost their humanity, I agree. No. Every mage's blood on Meredith's hand. Your view is absolutely wrong. Anders explicitly agrees with me, so no your view is the one that's absolutely wrong. Also never said their blood being on Anders's hands absolves Meredith. They're on hers too.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 21, 2020 19:03:36 GMT
I'm not condoning mass murder in any way
However...technically Anders is still in control of himself if he does this as Hawke's friend...so in this instance he still has his humanity on rivalry though, Justice/Vengeance takes over making Anders loose control of himself and his humanity...so here he'd be defined by being an abomination at least if we go by the reply the Warden can give to the Wynne Never said you did. Just arguing that anyone who murders innocent people lost their humanity. Okay, thanks for answering. Yeah, I can see your meaning as well...and I do agree with you about someone who kills innocents isn't human. However one can also argue just how innocent those Chantry priests were...even by proxy of just being Andrastian. While I'm certain many of them are good men and women who truly belief there's a higher being looking out for them. A bunch rotten apples spoil everything else.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 19:05:54 GMT
Never said you did. Just arguing that anyone who murders innocent people lost their humanity. Okay, thanks for answering. Yeah, I can see your meaning as well...and I do agree with you about someone who kills innocents isn't human. However one can also argue just how innocent those Chantry priests were...even by proxy of just being Andrastian. While I'm certain many of them are good men and women who truly belief there's a higher being looking out for them. A bunch rotten apples spoil everything else.
No, someone really can't. Since by that argument the Annulment didn't kill a single innocent mage since they were all in a Circle that had some genuine maleficarum, including their leader. Plus it wasn't just those in the Chantry killed in the blast, but civilians too. If they didn't personally do it or order it, they are innocent.
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Post by Rascoth on Oct 21, 2020 19:08:14 GMT
They can always do much, much more. Unfortunately Humpf, I'm still going to play a mage in the next game They can't win from me! *cackles evilly* Same here, I'm going to keep mage'ing and freezing asses of everyone around Thedas
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2020 19:09:39 GMT
No. Every mage's blood on Meredith's hand. Your view is absolutely wrong. Anders explicitly agrees with me, so no your view is the one that's absolutely wrong. Also never said their blood being on Anders's hands absolves Meredith. They're on hers too. Yes, Anders takes this responsibility, this not means he's responsible for it, but Meredith, the Chantry the Seekers and the Templars. Your view is wrong. Also, I was late with my answer but, you said this too: Define the "innocent" Circle! (And define the not-innocent one!) The "Annulment" is evil. The mere existence of it – started by the fact, that this is a declared "right".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 19:16:46 GMT
Define the "innocent" Circle! (And define the not-innocent one!) The "Annulment" is evil. The mere existence of it. Ignoring the first part since you contradict yourself. (Don't bother arguing otherwise. I'm not interested.) It's a pretty straightforward answer. Innocent: a Circle that isn't committing crimes (Kirkwall for most part) Not innocent: a Circle that is committing crimes (Ferelden not counting the hostages being turned into abominations)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2020 19:21:36 GMT
Define the "innocent" Circle! (And define the not-innocent one!) The "Annulment" is evil. The mere existence of it. Ignoring the first part since you contradict yourself. (Don't bother arguing otherwise. I'm not interested.) It's a pretty straightforward answer. Innocent: a Circle that isn't committing crimes (Kirkwall for most part) Not innocent: a Circle that is committing crimes (Ferelden not counting the hostages being turned into abominations) The whole Ferelden Circle, but not counting... etc. Yes... Thank fort the answer. So, according to you: not-innocent the whole Chantry... – because committed crimes, against humanity. The Divine is an abomination...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2020 19:24:36 GMT
Ignoring the first part since you contradict yourself. (Don't bother arguing otherwise. I'm not interested.) It's a pretty straightforward answer. Innocent: a Circle that isn't committing crimes (Kirkwall for most part) Not innocent: a Circle that is committing crimes (Ferelden not counting the hostages being turned into abominations)The whole Ferelden Circle, but not counting... etc. Yes... So, according to you: not-innocent the whole Chantry... – because committed crimes, against humanity. The Divine is an abomination... No, you’re being obtuse. In the Ferelden Circle, if the Warden wasn’t there by the time the Annulment would begin the Circle would only have Uldred and his followers left aka everyone committing crimes. But I know better than to argue with you. It’s like arguing astronomy with a Flat Earther.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2020 19:28:18 GMT
The whole Ferelden Circle, but not counting... etc. Yes... So, according to you: not-innocent the whole Chantry... – because committed crimes, against humanity. The Divine is an abomination... No, you’re being obtuse. In the Ferelden Circle, if the Warden wasn’t there by the time the Annulment would begin the Circle would only have Uldred and his followers left aka everyone committing crimes. But I know better than to argue with you. It’s like arguing astronomy with a Flat Earther. Of course, you can't understand what I said. I didn't even expect anything else.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 19:31:55 GMT
Humpf, I'm still going to play a mage in the next game They can't win from me! *cackles evilly* I mean...Blood Mage could make a comeback, 'cause while it can be taught by demons it's not required...I'd love for Spirit Healer to come back as well since most spirit healers we've seen so far have had the willing cooperation of a spirit to do their trade. Then again, if Solas gets the monopoly on spirits...I'm wondering what will and won't be possible I am very much going to play a mage next game as I have in the previous ones. The only thing that made me opt for rogue the first time I played DAO was that I wanted to play an elf background rather than a mage background and the options didn't allow me to be a Dalish elf and a mage. Luckily DAI rectified that one, so first run I was a Dalish mage and the second I was a Dalish rogue. I hardly ever play a warrior. I would like Spirit Healer to return as I played that in both DAO and DA2 (I'm sure Solas doesn't have a monopoly on spirits of compassion). I also liked Arcane Warrior in DAO because it allowed me to wear armour and carry a sword, even if I had to sheath it to do spells. The Knight Enchanter was fun in DAI with my Thedas light sabre but it was rather overpowered. A mage really shouldn't be able to kill a high dragon all on their own because the rest of the party is unconscious and I can be bothered reviving them. If they bring back blood mage I may well play it provided I can be an ethical blood mage, because I believe that is possible, but if they link it to doing deals with demons or play up the causing pain and suffering aspect then that will rule it out for me. I don't do deals with demons and don't intentionally cause suffering to anyone, certainly not to gain power. I wonder if they will come up with a completely new specialism for the game as we are going to Tevinter. Shapeshifter was in DAO because of Morrigan being able to teach us it; Force Mage was said to be something taught specifically in Kirkwall Circle and Rift Mage was possible because of the Breach, so I'm hopeful we may get something original in DA4 as well as some existing specialisms. I also hope there is more choice in DA4. It was rather disappointing we only had a choice of 3 in both DA2 and DAI, plus in the latter we were only replicating what our companions could do. I liked the fact that in DA2 our companions had their own unique specialisms.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 21, 2020 19:58:20 GMT
I am very much going to play a mage next game as I have in the previous ones. The only thing that made me opt for rogue the first time I played DAO was that I wanted to play an elf background rather than a mage background and the options didn't allow me to be a Dalish elf and a mage. Luckily DAI rectified that one, so first run I was a Dalish mage and the second I was a Dalish rogue. I hardly ever play a warrior. I would like Spirit Healer to return as I played that in both DAO and DA2 (I'm sure Solas doesn't have a monopoly on spirits of compassion). I also liked Arcane Warrior in DAO because it allowed me to wear armour and carry a sword, even if I had to sheath it to do spells. The Knight Enchanter was fun in DAI with my Thedas light sabre but it was rather overpowered. A mage really shouldn't be able to kill a high dragon all on their own because the rest of the party is unconscious and I can be bothered reviving them. If they bring back blood mage I may well play it provided I can be an ethical blood mage, because I believe that is possible, but if they link it to doing deals with demons or play up the causing pain and suffering aspect then that will rule it out for me. I don't do deals with demons and don't intentionally cause suffering to anyone, certainly not to gain power. I wonder if they will come up with a completely new specialism for the game as we are going to Tevinter. Shapeshifter was in DAO because of Morrigan being able to teach us it; Force Mage was said to be something taught specifically in Kirkwall Circle and Rift Mage was possible because of the Breach, so I'm hopeful we may get something original in DA4 as well as some existing specialisms. I also hope there is more choice in DA4. It was rather disappointing we only had a choice of 3 in both DA2 and DAI, plus in the latter we were only replicating what our companions could do. I liked the fact that in DA2 our companions had their own unique specialisms. Same, I tried alternating between rogues and mages (mostly did rogue in DAO because they have some content that's somewhat unique to them (such as Crime Wave...unless you give your character the Stealing skill, but imo. it only fits rogues) But I always get the itch to go back to mages, what can I say...I've loved magic for age...even though as a little girl I was terrified of witches due to Roald Dahl's 'The Witches' movie adaptation (I understand they're doing a remake) Though for some reason it changed pretty soon, because I remember drawing witches when I was little as well (there was a children book series about a witch in my country called ' de grote boze heks'(aka. the big angry witch) which my mother would read out of for me and my brother, and I loved that character) And then of course Harry Potter and LotR came and...you get the idea. I think LotR kindled both my love for magic and elves
Anyway, babbling aside...I'd love for unique specializations to get a comeback in DA4, Arcane warrior would be interesting to get a return.
Maybe something similar to dreamers as a new spec? Then again, dreamers are said to be rare and also quite fragile of mind if not trained properly...Hm, maybe seer or shamanic magic, I'd love to see what the Tevinter, Rivaini and Mortalitasi mages have in store Force Mage is also said to have been Malcolm's specialty -barring that blood magic thing in Legacy- (mostly due to having studied in Kirkwall) which is why Bethany has it as hers if she's the surviving sibling.
But yeah...I'd love to get back the unique specializations...I love DAO for being able to be unique, for example...my first DAO mage (once Awakening was released) was an Arcane Warrior + Battlemage, no companion has those specs so she felt and was completely unique I did the same for my first male character, who was a Ranger+Shadow, my first Warrior into Awakening was a Champion+Guardian
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2020 19:58:57 GMT
Same here...I think one of the Warden's possible replies to Wynne sums it up pretty well "if one retains their humanity one is not an abomination" both Wynne and Anders retain their humanity, so shouldn't be classified as abominations Actually thinking about this a bit more, I think our Warden's definition was a bit too simplistic, particularly considering how inconsistent they have been with presenting spirit unions in game. I used to think the difference between Wynne, Anders and a true abomination was consent but that is not entirely true since apparently some Wardens deliberately allow themselves to be possessed when surrounded by darkspawn and without hope of escape, because they know that way they can take down the maximum amount of enemies before they die. Also did Wynne actually consent to be possessed if she was already dead? The same is true of Evangeline. Also when talking about this we shouldn't forget Flemeth. I've already mentioned how her situation was probably the closest to Anders considering Mythal was originally the goddess (spirit) of justice which then wanted vengeance for what had been done to her, so responded to Flemeth's desire for the same. I think Flemeth definitely recognised the spirit within Anders when they were talking. Of course Flemeth and Mythal both wanted vengeance so there was no conflict of interest there, whereas the problem with Anders is that his writer maintains it was his anger that warped Justice, or that is what Anders' believes. I still find this odd, particularly bearing in mind what Solas says about spirits becoming demons Why would Anders being angry at Templars have warped Justice? Surely he is angry at the injustice of the Circles and what Templars do to mages? He even says to Hawke how Justice can be hard and ruthless. Even that final decision to blow up the Chantry. Is the motivation because he holds the Chantry responsible for all the injustice committed against mages and therefore the act is one of justice for the mages, or is it merely desiring vengeance. It is a fine line between the two, so may be the spirit can switch from one to the other without essentially changing his nature (whatever Anders believes). However, it is the fact that after committing the act he stops, that makes me feel that not only Anders is always in control but that Justice is still himself, or at the very least he is still a spirit, not an out of control demon. If pure anger is all that is necessary to change the nature of the spirit, why doesn't Wynne's faith spirit alter when she becomes angry and vengeful? The odd thing also is that Anders says that in the Fade he is always just a passenger, but when Wynne is in the Fade she is very much herself, until she starts to lose faith in the face of the demon, when her spirit companion takes over. So why is Wynne's experience so difference to that of Anders? (Apart of course from the fact they were written by two different people)
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 21, 2020 20:19:25 GMT
Actually thinking about this a bit more, I think our Warden's definition was a bit too simplistic, particularly considering how inconsistent they have been with presenting spirit unions in game. I used to think the difference between Wynne, Anders and a true abomination was consent but that is not entirely true since apparently some Wardens deliberately allow themselves to be possessed when surrounded by darkspawn and without hope of escape, because they know that way they can take down the maximum amount of enemies before they die. Also did Wynne actually consent to be possessed if she was already dead? The same is true of Evangeline.
Also when talking about this we shouldn't forget Flemeth. I've already mentioned how her situation was probably the closest to Anders considering Mythal was originally the goddess (spirit) of justice which then wanted vengeance for what had been done to her, so responded to Flemeth's desire for the same. I think Flemeth definitely recognised the spirit within Anders when they were talking. Of course Flemeth and Mythal both wanted vengeance so there was no conflict of interest there, whereas the problem with Anders is that his writer maintains it was his anger that warped Justice, or that is what Anders' believes.
I still find this odd, particularly bearing in mind what Solas says about spirits becoming demons Why would Anders being angry at Templars have warped Justice? Surely he is angry at the injustice of the Circles and what Templars do to mages? He even says to Hawke how Justice can be hard and ruthless. Even that final decision to blow up the Chantry. Is the motivation because he holds the Chantry responsible for all the injustice committed against mages and therefore the act is one of justice for the mages, or is it merely desiring vengeance. It is a fine line between the two, so may be the spirit can switch from one to the other without essentially changing his nature (whatever Anders believes). However, it is the fact that after committing the act he stops, that makes me feel that not only Anders is always in control but that Justice is still himself, or at the very least he is still a spirit, not an out of control demon.
If pure anger is all that is necessary to change the nature of the spirit, why doesn't Wynne's faith spirit alter when she becomes angry and vengeful? The odd thing also is that Anders says that in the Fade he is always just a passenger, just when Wynne is in the Fade she is very much herself, until she starts to lose faith in the face of the demon, when her spirit companion takes over. So why is Wynne's experience so difference to that of Anders? (Apart of course from the fact they were written by two different people) Firstly I think spirits (like people) can be unique per instance, Wynne's spirit was one of Faith...Anders one of Justice...both encompass very different ideals
some people even speculate that Mouse (from the Magi origin) might actually be a spirit of Wisdom who's attracted to/by the Warden in some capacity, who warps into a pride demon at the end of the quest. Pride demons are said to be the strongest demons in the hierarchy, yet despite this...even though he could've done so, he doesn't even attempt to possess the Warden. One might say 'plot armor' but what if that theory is true and Mouse is still a spirit in that instance, yet looks like a pride demon because the Warden thinks that's what he is? After all, Solas tells the Inquisitor a 'spirit will adapt to one's perception'
Anders' union was most definitely a consented possession, Wynne's was a neutral one because the spirit had already been watching her for years before deciding to help her in the instant she needed it. The same goes for Evangeline because Wynne transfers the spirit to her.
I think Justice lashes out at times because he's fighting himself as much as he's fighting...well, Anders' anger? Anders tells Hawke he had too much anger inside which changed Justice, which I think goes against Justice's ideals. It's what changes him, yet during Night Terrors if Anders is brought along it's Justice in control inside the Fade...who only gets angry and attacks if you make a deal with Torpor because you're denying justice for Feynriel's mind.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 21, 2020 22:11:09 GMT
For hair-splitting reasons, I wonder where the definition for "possessed corpse" starts. Were Wynne or Evangeline dead for some time? How long? How long it takes? Are they really more like an Arcane Horror/Revenant example now? Now I'll think about it for waaaaaay too long. Thanks Nah, I'm pretty much spitballing for the sake of being annoying. Didn't they already do that in Inquisition codex and Tevinter Nights? I mean...Solas is totally angry at the latter for them doing their religious practices of binding spirits to corpses...yet is quite calm about the former during Cole's personal quest if you seek out a talisman to keep Cole from being bound. (also, baby turtle ) That's somewhat in line with Solas' thinking, as gervaise21 said. The "Mineave BS" though is parroted by several characters and we also have quite a few examples of Dalish giving up their stuff being framed as "positive" or "progressive". I mean, there are quite some DA fans from endangered minority groups in RL who rightfully go when seeing such things. In communities with a lot of fans having disabilities, Hepler isn't very popular. She seems to use "bipolar" whenever she seems to mean "crazy" in a sense of mental issues, which raises a ton of issues I wasn't aware until quite recently that she used mental illness as inspiration for Anders/Justice, which annoyed the hell out of me I can tell you but also did me a favour as it made me take a fresh look at Anders, play both Awakening and DA2 again and here I am, an Anders convert. Yeah, that can happen. I mean, I have always been kinda vocal about certain things in DA (like Dalish thrashing in DAI...) but once I found out that there are others thinking so as well, for "more legitimate" reasons than I do... They can always do much, much more. Unfortunately Humpf, I'm still going to play a mage in the next game They can't win from me! *cackles evilly* Eh, same here. I might stop getting newer games if DA4 continues the current course though. Lets say someone comes up with some "Tevinter can only be redeemed (whatever that means) by adopting southern style Andrastianism, including circles and proper templars!" and I'm out. If they bring back blood mage I may well play it provided I can be an ethical blood mage, because I believe that is possible, but if they link it to doing deals with demons or play up the causing pain and suffering aspect then that will rule it out for me. I don't do deals with demons and don't intentionally cause suffering to anyone, certainly not to gain power. [/div]
Unless you discount her "mentor" as well, Hawke could have learned the basics from Merrill. (Avernus for DAO instead of Connor's demon?) I personally never use Blood Sacrifice in DAO or DA2 (the latter allows for some point shenanigans allowing to clear out the seemingly needed point investment spent in Sacrifice. Grave Robber targets corpses (like Death Syphon does) and if upgraded, can drain and harm living enemies, like a fireball. I'd really hate if they play up that "sacrificial suffering" part, especially as they apparently cannot decide on "personal sacrifice" (which could also be spiritual) as opposed to "bodily suffering". Heck, none of the games ever explained properly if Blood Control is purely physical (somewhat like Bloodbending in Avatar: The Last Airbender) or purely mental or a mix of the two. The closest point we have is probably Idunna, and her shenanigans appear to be physical in no small part.
Yeah, I can see your meaning as well...and I do agree with you about someone who kills innocents isn't human. However one can also argue just how innocent those Chantry priests were...even by proxy of just being Andrastian. While I'm certain many of them are good men and women who truly belief there's a higher being looking out for them. A bunch rotten apples spoil everything else.
No, someone really can't. Since by that argument the Annulment didn't kill a single innocent mage since they were all in a Circle that had some genuine maleficarum, including their leader. Plus it wasn't just those in the Chantry killed in the blast, but civilians too. If they didn't personally do it or order it, they are innocent. Well, the Chantry folks keep all the hate going with their sermons and teachings. If the templars are the camp guards, the Chantry clergy is some sort of Rosenberg counterpart in this admittedly hyperbolic comparison. Define the "innocent" Circle! (And define the not-innocent one!) The "Annulment" is evil. The mere existence of it. It's a pretty straightforward answer. Innocent: a Circle that isn't committing crimes (Kirkwall for most part) Not innocent: a Circle that is committing crimes (Ferelden not counting the hostages being turned into abominations) Eh, crimes by what definition? Lawfulness quickly tears itself apart in this situation. If you go "what the Chantry says", I'll be quoting MLK Jr. Now what? The thing is, RoA, apart from its self-important name, is rather pointless. If all mages in a circle are fleshheap abominations or dead, one just kills the former, as this is what the templars are supposedly are for anyway. Don't need an extra legal tool for that, which is then used to cover abuses along the lines of "zero witnessess". As well as just exterminating everything that strays from out of line, like Diarsmuid.
But I know better than to argue with you. It’s like arguing astronomy with a Flat Earther. I feel the same when trying to debate with templar/Chantry fans to be honest, but to go full-blown self-righteousness, I usually refrain from insulting their intelligence. But I always get the itch to go back to mages, what can I say...I've loved magic for age...even though as a little girl I was terrified of witches due to Roald Dahl's 'The Witches' movie adaptation (I understand they're doing a remake) Though for some reason it changed pretty soon, because I remember drawing witches when I was little as well (there was a children book series about a witch in my country called ' de grote boze heks'(aka. the big angry witch) which my mother would read out of for me and my brother, and I loved that character) And then of course Harry Potter and LotR came and...you get the idea. I think LotR kindled both my love for magic and elves She doesn't look that angry or evil though. some people even speculate that Mouse (from the Magi origin) might actually be a spirit of Wisdom who's attracted to/by the Warden in some capacity, who warps into a pride demon at the end of the quest. Pride demons are said to be the strongest demons in the hierarchy, yet despite this...even though he could've done so, he doesn't even attempt to possess the Warden. One might say 'plot armor' but what if that theory is true and Mouse is still a spirit in that instance, yet looks like a pride demon because the Warden thinks that's what he is? After all, Solas tells the Inquisitor a 'spirit will adapt to one's perception I'm one of these actually. As you said, I guess if Mouse would really be a full blown PD out for a meal, it could just have overpowered the player character. Either that or the player character wasn't considered "ripe" yet. Mouse does reflect on quite a lot of thoughts which Amell/Surana might harbour at this time, leading me to think that it is mostly posing as big spiky thing taken as pride demon (and the apprentice form) to weigh into the lesson. I suspect the circle attracted and bound the run-off-the-mill rage demon for the ritual, with Mouse definitely not being part of the plan.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 22, 2020 6:36:19 GMT
1) That's somewhat in line with Solas' thinking, as gervaise21 said. The "Mineave BS" though is parroted by several characters and we also have quite a few examples of Dalish giving up their stuff being framed as "positive" or "progressive". I mean, there are quite some DA fans from endangered minority groups in RL who rightfully go when seeing such things. 2) Eh, same here. I might stop getting newer games if DA4 continues the current course though. Lets say someone comes up with some "Tevinter can only be redeemed (whatever that means) by adopting southern style Andrastianism, including circles and proper templars!" and I'm out. 3) She doesn't look that angry or evil though. 4) I'm one of these actually. As you said, I guess if Mouse would really be a full blown PD out for a meal, it could just have overpowered the player character. Either that or the player character wasn't considered "ripe" yet. Mouse does reflect on quite a lot of thoughts which Amell/Surana might harbour at this time, leading me to think that it is mostly posing as big spiky thing taken as pride demon (and the apprentice form) to weigh into the lesson. I suspect the circle attracted and bound the run-off-the-mill rage demon for the ritual, with Mouse definitely not being part of the plan. 1) ugh, don't remind me...there's also the whole 'let's allow the players to kill a Dalish clan in each installment, it'll be fine!"
I've played a few Dalish elves in the past who gave up their culture in some capacity...but my recent Inquisitor firmly kept onto her beliefs throughout everything, even the whole 'trololol your 'Gods' were actually tyrants themselves, and the markings you venerate are actually slave markings' ordeal that is Trespasser, I mean...granted that dlc was amazing but I very much wished they'd kept the religious aspect on a more mystical spectrum
2) ...I hope it's the opposite, let's hope we can rebuild Tevinter and reconquer Thedas... (though I suspect my Tabris might be spitting fire if I suggest this )
3) nah, she's more of the grouchy 'get of my lawn!' type...it's funny
4) it might also explain the exchange between Mouse and the rage demon...I mean, if Mouse really is a pride demon...then shouldn't that rage demon be scared of him? If he is a spirit like we suspect, then it'd make sense the rage demon makes fun of him and even threatens him.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 22, 2020 20:08:17 GMT
1) That's somewhat in line with Solas' thinking, as gervaise21 said. The "Mineave BS" though is parroted by several characters and we also have quite a few examples of Dalish giving up their stuff being framed as "positive" or "progressive". I mean, there are quite some DA fans from endangered minority groups in RL who rightfully go when seeing such things. 2) Eh, same here. I might stop getting newer games if DA4 continues the current course though. Lets say someone comes up with some "Tevinter can only be redeemed (whatever that means) by adopting southern style Andrastianism, including circles and proper templars!" and I'm out. 3) She doesn't look that angry or evil though. 4) I'm one of these actually. As you said, I guess if Mouse would really be a full blown PD out for a meal, it could just have overpowered the player character. Either that or the player character wasn't considered "ripe" yet. Mouse does reflect on quite a lot of thoughts which Amell/Surana might harbour at this time, leading me to think that it is mostly posing as big spiky thing taken as pride demon (and the apprentice form) to weigh into the lesson. I suspect the circle attracted and bound the run-off-the-mill rage demon for the ritual, with Mouse definitely not being part of the plan. 1) ugh, don't remind me...there's also the whole 'let's allow the players to kill a Dalish clan in each installment, it'll be fine!"
I've played a few Dalish elves in the past who gave up their culture in some capacity...but my recent Inquisitor firmly kept onto her beliefs throughout everything, even the whole 'trololol your 'Gods' were actually tyrants themselves, and the markings you venerate are actually slave markings' ordeal that is Trespasser, I mean...granted that dlc was amazing but I very much wished they'd kept the religious aspect on a more mystical spectrum
2) ...I hope it's the opposite, let's hope we can rebuild Tevinter and reconquer Thedas... (though I suspect my Tabris might be spitting fire if I suggest this )
3) nah, she's more of the grouchy 'get of my lawn!' type...it's funny
4) it might also explain the exchange between Mouse and the rage demon...I mean, if Mouse really is a pride demon...then shouldn't that rage demon be scared of him? If he is a spirit like we suspect, then it'd make sense the rage demon makes fun of him and even threatens him.
1) Yup, but if Elthina dies, it is doom upon all the world. Ugh, really love the double standard of "what measure is a non-human?"
My "Dalish" response would be "Well, Maker's still a giant ignorant douchy fuckwit." and "That was old Valla. We made it new, (and that's while I keep it.)"
See, that's while I'm so vocal about Cullavellan. It carries a pretty weird Pocahontas vibe, complete with "you are not like the other savages" (He pulls this kind of othering towards the mage and Dalish backgrounds). It also reminds me of how the fandom gushes over that wedding. The dialogue wheel apparently reads: "I would like Dalish vows" but the spoken conversation goes like this: Lavellan: "I would. Cullen, I will." Cullen: "What is it?" Lavellan: "Reciting vows to the Maker… That means nothing to me. But I know you…"
Why doesn't she straightforward say "I don't believe in the Maker. I'd like to use Dalish vows." Why is this made about him? If he doesn't want her to use Dalish words, they probably should rethink their life choices. Apart from the fact that this is otherwise still a quite andrastian wedding, officiated by frickin' Giselle, the Defender of the Dales Extermination and other associated Shit (tm). And the fandom gives us such things.
So, I'm done exploding. 2) *mwahahahaha* good ideas here. Oh, and having Tabris turn into a dragon... is it that bad in principle? 3) 4) I suppose Mouse trolls the rage demon just as much as the player. I wouldn't be surprised if powerful spirits could fool lesser ones if they can fool mortals.
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Oct 22, 2020 20:19:10 GMT
1) Yup, but if Elthina dies, it is doom upon all the world. Ugh, really love the double standard of "what measure is a non-human?"
My "Dalish" response would be "Well, Maker's still a giant ignorant douchy fuckwit." and "That was old Valla. We made it new, (and that's while I keep it.)"
See, that's while I'm so vocal about Cullavellan. It carries a pretty weird Pocahontas vibe, complete with "you are not like the other savages" (He pulls this kind of othering towards the mage and Dalish backgrounds). It also reminds me of how the fandom gushes over that wedding. The dialogue wheel apparently reads: "I would like Dalish vows" but the spoken conversation goes like this: Lavellan: "I would. Cullen, I will." Cullen: "What is it?" Lavellan: "Reciting vows to the Maker… That means nothing to me. But I know you…"
Why doesn't she straightforward say "I don't believe in the Maker. I'd like to use Dalish vows." Why is this made about him? If he doesn't want her to use Dalish words, they probably should rethink their life choices. Apart from the fact that this is otherwise still a quite andrastian wedding, officiated by frickin' Giselle, the Defender of the Dales Extermination and other associated Shit (tm). And the fandom gives us such things.
So, I'm done exploding. 2) *mwahahahaha* good ideas here. Oh, and having Tabris turn into a dragon... is it that bad in principle? 3) 4) I suppose Mouse trolls the rage demon just as much as the player. I wouldn't be surprised if powerful spirits could fool lesser ones if they can fool mortals. 1) *sigh* you're doing this on purpose aren't you? (something tells me you're just dying to know what I'm like angry ) and I happen to be one of those people who gush about that wedding, it's pretty!
2) Raelyn: *arches eyebrow* what's this about me turning into a dragon? *sees former comment* oh...well, if it's about burning down slavers...I'm game
4) I think being a troll is something that's in a spirit's nature, Cole is very good at trolling as well, even if he doesn't mean to
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 22, 2020 20:41:27 GMT
I've been replaying the bit of Awakening after acquiring Justice today. I've been puzzling a bit about Justice's conversations with Anders concerning the nature of spirits and demons and it suddenly hit me today that in fact he directly contradicts Solas and Anders to some extent as well. He says demons have been perverted by their desires but Anders claims it was he who perverted Justice with his desires and Solas claims a spirit can be twisted into a demon by forcing it to act against its purpose.
So Justice to some extent is backing the ideas of Andraste in the Chant, that the spirits are twisted by their own desires and become demons, whilst Solas and Anders suggests it is external factors acting upon them. Admittedly in another conversation with the Inquisitor Solas suggests that Pride and Desire are just Wisdom and Purpose whose defining trait has been warped, without saying by whom. Then Justice says in another conversation with Anders that he doesn't know what makes demons as they are.
Other curiosities I have picked up on. Justice says he doesn't know where souls go after death but it is rumoured to be somewhere beyond the Fade. I feel the writers are trying too hard to avoid saying if there is a Maker or not. To my mind spirits ought to know one way or another where he is, bearing in mind that according to Andraste they were his first children and spent much of their early years singing his praises in the Golden City. Cole says something about the Maker being far away too but I was never sure if this is something he knew or had just picked up on the beliefs of those around hm.
A further curiosity is Justice's fascination with lyrium, particularly the song it makes. I had this idea, that may be belongs on the Crazy Theory Thread but I'll post it here anyway. If spirits are drawn to the song of lyrium and there was originally no Veil to prevent them leaving the Fade and crossing over into the Waking World, did the first of them do this in response to the song of lyrium in the earth? When they touched the earth they became the First of the Elvhen.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 24, 2020 1:57:49 GMT
Oh my! Lots to digest here. Firstly, I played a mage in ALL three DA games. The mage in DAI was the worst. It was so watered-down and replaced with more passive abilities then spells. And the spells you could cast were so damn basic. What happened to the Schools of Magic? Healing? I do not like Blood Magic, but I know many do and they replaced it with Necromancy...what the hell?!? I have seen more interesting spells on old school games like, Diablo. Then you could only choose ONE specialization! And if you do not like it, well you are screwed. I thought having a school of magic already for Rift Mage was idiotic. And the Knight-Enchanter was Arcane Warrior stripped of its former self—even its name—and redone in a manner of “WTF is this?!?!” Personally, I thought playing a mage in DA2 was the most fun. I cannot express how awesome Force Magic was. Not only was it unique but badass. And seeing Templars get slammed to the ground, glorious! Yeah that is right you dirty templar eat that floor and like it! As for Anders and the whole “Abomination moral ground” thing.
To be so bold, I would have to say, Catilina and I are probably the biggest “cheerleaders” for Mage Freedom. Though, Catilina tends to write more then I do about such topics. And Anders, well, we be like two school kids screaming, “I love Anders more!”
Anders is a rather complicated individual as are his actions.
But let us address the elephant in the room—the poor writing. I for one will not get into the dark side that took place about this topic years ago and I am firmly against what transpired. If you know about it, keep to yourself please. If you do not know about it, Google it, but keep it to yourself please.
Personally, I was not happy with the direction the writers chose to go with Anders. Considering the dialogue that took place in Awakening, the whole Justice merging with Anders makes no sense. The only conclusion I can come to as to why the writers chose to go this route was because the DA2 story needed it to.
There was no need for Anders nor for Justice to do this. The writers could have allowed Anders, to go down this path by himself. As the years rolled by in Kirkwall seeing Anders over this period become more tenacious towards freedom for mages would have been far more interesting. A character does not need to be complex for his or her passion or passions to take root and consume them. To me if Anders, was just Anders, the whole climax would have had a different affect.
There is nothing wrong with changing a character. However, you must do it slowly –like with Cullen or Alistair or hell even Morrigan—doing it quickly ends up ruining the character. Look, I DO like Anders. But I would have enjoyed him more if he was just Anders.
The other thing that bothered me with Anders was the writers over-did the whole, “Mage freedom thing.” I am all for mage freedom, but even I was getting tried by the end of hearing Anders constantly talk about it. And apparently, the writers learned nothing from this mistake considering all Solas talks about in DAI is the Fade. But at the end of it all I must deal with what was giving to us.
When you see and accept the mistakes the DA team has done with DA2, and the history of what we know about The Chantry, only then can you understand DA2 Anders.
Anders and my Hawke ARE responsible for starting the Mage side of the War. But the war started long ago when The Chantry was formed. Blaming Anders or even Hawke for such actions is a cop-out. You cannot sit idly by and watch a fire burn and chose not to step in to do something. People who finger shame Anders make me roll my eyes. My response to them is two words: Exalted Marches.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 24, 2020 9:13:32 GMT
There was no need for Anders nor for Justice to do this. The writers could have allowed Anders, to go down this path by himself. As the years rolled by in Kirkwall seeing Anders over this period become more tenacious towards freedom for mages would have been far more interesting. A character does not need to be complex for his or her passion or passions to take root and consume them. To me if Anders, was just Anders, the whole climax would have had a different affect. I so agree with this. There was every reason why Anders could have decided to go this direction on his own, particularly when you factor in Karl in his story. Of course, there was no hint of Karl in Awakening. Anders was just trying to escape the Circle and the reason he was heading for Amaranthine was to try and destroy his phylactery so they couldn't find him. There was no suggestion that he always headed north because he was trying to get back to Karl in Kirkwall. However, once you do know about Karl then his motivations start making sense. All they had to do was have him write to Karl after joining the Grey Wardens and the response make him realise how the situation was changing up there, so he skipped the Wardens in order to help him. Then what they did to Karl would be sufficient incentive for him to embrace the cause of mage freedom as opposed to just his own. If they thought they needed the merge with Justice to explain this, clearly they don't understand such motivations. Personally, I was not happy with the direction the writers chose to go with Anders. Considering the dialogue that took place in Awakening, the whole Justice merging with Anders makes no sense. The only conclusion I can come to as to why the writers chose to go this route was because the DA2 story needed it to. The only reason they needed it to do so was apparently to promote the "mage doom" idea by having a sensible mage like Anders become an abomination by choice and then be totally screwed over by the decision. Then they couldn't even present a consistent portrayal of this, possibly because the writer was too wrapped up in the idea of demonic possession controlling Anders rather than actually considering the issue properly. Anders and my Hawke ARE responsible for starting the Mage side of the War. But the war started long ago when The Chantry was formed. Blaming Anders or even Hawke for such actions is a cop-out. This is also true. Anders (and possibly Hawke) is responsible for starting the fight back against the centuries long oppression, not just of mages. He wasn't the first to attempt this but the only one who succeeded in getting a revolution going in earnest. My main disappointment with the writers is what they did with this after DA2 and the continued attempt to try and justify the treatment of mages in the south. It is because of what they ended up doing with the rebel mages and their betrayal of those who helped them for no good reason, that makes me have such misgivings about what they are going to do with the elves going forward, particularly the Dalish. After all, they've pretty much blamed them for the loss of the Dales already, endorsing the Chantry backed view of history, plus destroyed their religion as a credible alternative to the human one. I have a preference for playing elves and mages, both if possible, but also the underdog. Part of the lack of interest in playing a human in Dragon Age is that it makes me always part of the ruling elite who are responsible for the oppression through collaboration with the Chantry (and vice versa). Even if you play a human mage you are actually from a noble background and whilst Hawke starts off as a penniless refugee, once they buy back their estate and status of noble, they are regarded as such. Varric says that is what makes them, and to an extent their mage friends as well, untouchable by the Templars until Act 3. Okay, so Bethany is taken to the Circle but that is before we become noble again and she is still allowed out on request as it often the case with noble children. I'm hoping that for once the human background in DA4 is not going to be a privileged one, even if they are said to have fallen on hard times, hence the lack of power. Even mages can be slaves though so I'm hopeful I will still be able to struggle against the system rather than support it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 24, 2020 9:26:49 GMT
Personally, I thought playing a mage in DA2 was the most fun. I cannot express how awesome Force Magic was. Not only was it unique but badass. And seeing Templars get slammed to the ground, glorious! Yeah that is right you dirty templar eat that floor and like it! I felt the same way. I got such satisfaction about pulling them into a nice heap and then slamming them with Fist of the Maker. There was a lovely irony there.
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