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Post by Catilina on Nov 1, 2020 16:31:36 GMT
I'm playing through again, this time with a female rogue Hawke to get the different feel for the romance and also experience Anders again with Bethany. I still don't understand why they thought that his relationship with Karl wasn't relevant to Hawke no matter what their gender. To my mind that is important information about his character whether planning on romancing him or not.
I love his exchanges with Bethany though. One in particular stands out and that is when they are discussing how the Rite of Tranquility is the problem when it comes to trying to change things from within the system. As I said in my previous post, Solas identified that as the chief objection to Cassandra's suggestion that he could have changed things from within. So it is interesting that DG decided to use the revelation that it can be reversed as the catalyst to finally getting the revolution started in earnest.
That is the thing though. Anders is having to approach the issue from the idea that the Rite of Tranquility is permanent and is always going to be used by the Chantry/Templars as a threat against any mage who challenges their authority. Since he, Karl and Bethany think that being made tranquil is worse than death (and they also use tranquility in Tevinter to make an example of mages who challenge the system), it is a serious sticking point to trying to reform from within. It is also interesting that already in Act 1 Anders is saying to Bethany that he doesn't think it is going to be possible to bring about change peacefully because of the RoT. Look at that, by using an acronym I have come up with a truism. "The Circles cannot be reformed peacefully because of the ROT in the system". I don't think, Anders ever believe any slow, inner-reform. In Awakening, he didn't believe *any* change – AND –while he didn't think, anything can change– he despised the whole system: the conception of the prison-Circles. In DA2, he already wanted a rebellion, to me, this is clear – but at first, he tried it more peacefully. Anders and Bethany is very interesting. At first: she's the only who understands Anders + Justice. Anders' reasons. Also Bethany's character was written in a very interesting, vague way: if she's a Circle Mage, the player can interpret some of her reactions differently, to fit their (the players) own conception... – some player goes so far that she ENJOYED the Circle – what is a nonsense, especially in Kirkwall (also interesting, that while almost everyone accepts that the Gallows is CRUEL, but among them still there some who thinks: despite the random-tranquillity, executes, mages locked in their cells, Bethany was happy... – to me, this is quite illogical, but maybe it's just me...)
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 1, 2020 17:07:17 GMT
Also Bethany's character was written in a very interesting, vague way: if she's a Circle Mage, the player can interpret some of her reactions differently, to fit their (the players) own conception... – some player goes so far that she ENJOYED the Circle I think it is just a case of Bethany making the best of it. After all, I think she does mention about steering clear of Ser Alric and she must have heard from Ella how upsetting it was to be dragged from her home without even getting to say goodbye. She is also fortunate in that she does get regular visits from her Mother and is allowed out on occasion without supervision, so her experience is a lot better than the majority of commoner mages, which as I've repeatedly said is because she is now classed as nobility and they do get preferential treatment. Look at Emile de Launcet. Apparently he writes regular letters to his family, skips the Circle, goes around boasting he's a blood mage and yet if you send him back there Meredith accepts the excuse he is just an idiot and does nothing serious to him. Contrast that with how Ella is treated, or all the mages made tranquil like Karl, or Madox who is made tranquil simply for sending a letter to his previous love interest (possibly also for corrupting a Templar, who knows). Okay, so it is possible it was Ser Alric authorising some of these things rather than Meredith but I'm fairly certain she was the one who condemned Madox. Anyway, by the end it is clear that Bethany is not sorry to see the Circle go and now seems to have less guilt about being an apostate where her family is concerned, which I think was the main reason she seemed okay with the Circle because she was no longer a burden on them. However, I will probably not be able to clarify these things this time because I'm probably going to opt for the Grey Warden route. It is very difficult with Bethany if you aren't playing a warrior because of course to take her to the Deep Roads without Anders would mean certain death but role playing wise, no matter how fretful Leandra is about both her children going, the fact is the Templars are a constant threat whilst Bethany is in Kirkwall so naturally the two siblings are going to want to stick together. I managed with the two rogues, myself and Varric, and two mages Bethany and Anders, on a previous run so I know it is possible to do. I actually prefer having two mages in my party, it is the two rogues that is the problem but sadly I can't leave Varric behind, so I have to run with it. Today I went for a chat with Elthina and she commented how the Maker came through over the Blight, so I couldn't resist the option where you point out that actually it was the Hero of Ferelden and the Maker had nothing to do with it. Her response was that the Maker can work through unusual means even when it does involve a mage, because the Hero on this run is a mage and an elf. So Elthina can give Giselle a run for her money regarding how to spin these things.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 1, 2020 17:10:19 GMT
So Elthina can give Giselle a run for her money regarding how to spin these things. Or maybe there is no spinning of things, and they genuinely feel that way.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 1, 2020 17:19:33 GMT
Or maybe there is no spinning of things, and they genuinely feel that way. Yes, they probably genuinely believe it was the Maker but I regard it as spin if you are trying to convince someone else who does not share your beliefs. Mind you it is odd that they should believe that one considering that a main plank of Chantry belief is that the Maker turned his back on humanity after the death of the Andraste and the only thing that is going to get him involved again is spreading the Chant. Now Giselle has the excuse that the big hole in the sky would seem to fit with Drakon's prophesy of the return of the Maker and Andraste, hence people calling our PC the Herald of Andraste. Of course not everyone in the Chantry believes this to be the case but clearly Giselle is confident enough of its veracity to claim it. Elthina (and everyone else who claims the Maker is getting involved in earlier games) are just contradicting their own beliefs. Which is why I question whether they truly believe it.
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Post by Sonya on Nov 1, 2020 17:22:09 GMT
Also Bethany's character was written in a very interesting, vague way: if she's a Circle Mage, the player can interpret some of her reactions differently, to fit their (the players) own conception... – some player goes so far that she ENJOYED the Circle – what is a nonsense, especially in Kirkwall (also interesting, that while almost everyone accepts that the Gallows is CRUEL, but among them still there some who thinks: despite the random-tranquillity, executes, mages locked in their cells, Bethany was happy... – to me, this is quite illogical, but maybe it's just me...) As I see it: Beth was tired of running all the time (she tells it in dialogues). I mean REALLY tired. Tired to the point that she said she would be happy not to run and have clean bed. Beth did not enjoy the circle, no. But she was at least calm about "running" -thing, she found things she liked (teaching others), but at the same time wrote that it was strange that there were templars everywhere and mentioned that rapist-tmplar. Beth is young (sort of), has been in hiding all her life. And in the circle she stopped running and was not SO afraid at least. But enjoyed? Do not think so.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 1, 2020 17:54:16 GMT
Also Bethany's character was written in a very interesting, vague way: if she's a Circle Mage, the player can interpret some of her reactions differently, to fit their (the players) own conception... – some player goes so far that she ENJOYED the Circle I think it is just a case of Bethany making the best of it. After all, I think she does mention about steering clear of Ser Alric and she must have heard from Ella how upsetting it was to be dragged from her home without even getting to say goodbye. She is also fortunate in that she does get regular visits from her Mother and is allowed out on occasion without supervision, so her experience is a lot better than the majority of commoner mages, which as I've repeatedly said is because she is now classed as nobility and they do get preferential treatment. Look at Emile de Launcet. Apparently he writes regular letters to his family, skips the Circle, goes around boasting he's a blood mage and yet if you send him back there Meredith accepts the excuse he is just an idiot and does nothing serious to him. Contrast that with how Ella is treated, or all the mages made tranquil like Karl, or Madox who is made tranquil simply for sending a letter to his previous love interest (possibly also for corrupting a Templar, who knows). Okay, so it is possible it was Ser Alric authorising some of these things rather than Meredith but I'm fairly certain she was the one who condemned Madox. Anyway, by the end it is clear that Bethany is not sorry to see the Circle go and now seems to have less guilt about being an apostate where her family is concerned, which I think was the main reason she seemed okay with the Circle because she was no longer a burden on them. However, I will probably not be able to clarify these things this time because I'm probably going to opt for the Grey Warden route. It is very difficult with Bethany if you aren't playing a warrior because of course to take her to the Deep Roads without Anders would mean certain death but role playing wise, no matter how fretful Leandra is about both her children going, the fact is the Templars are a constant threat whilst Bethany is in Kirkwall so naturally the two siblings are going to want to stick together. I managed with the two rogues, myself and Varric, and two mages Bethany and Anders, on a previous run so I know it is possible to do. I actually prefer having two mages in my party, it is the two rogues that is the problem but sadly I can't leave Varric behind, so I have to run with it. Today I went for a chat with Elthina and she commented how the Maker came through over the Blight, so I couldn't resist the option where you point out that actually it was the Hero of Ferelden and the Maker had nothing to do with it. Her response was that the Maker can work through unusual means even when it does involve a mage, because the Hero on this run is a mage and an elf. So Elthina can give Giselle a run for her money regarding how to spin these things. and Sonya Even if she has privileges, still terrible to seesuch things – I don't think, a Bethany-kind person would be okay with it, in any level. I take her letter like "I'm fine sister/brother" – as some reassuring thing: "you don't have to worry about me, live your life already!" But: she can find a peace in the knowledge: she's not a burden anymore, and: she can take care about the others: the little ones, apprentices. To be a Warden makes her bitter. I also have a theory about this: She reported herself, if Hawke doesn't bring him to the Deep Roads: she's a master at avoiding troubles, and spent her whole life with hiding. And: nobody has to work for her freedom and safety anymore, she will be not a burden anymore. (Anders/Bethany banter) Bethany: So, you were in the Circle and ran away. I don't know if I'd be brave enough to do that. Anders: You've been an apostate your whole life. Bethany: Exactly. It was never anything I had to work for. Other people always took the risks, to keep me free. This also explain, why she is bitter as Warden (while sees, that her magic serves a good purpose), but in the Circle, she finds some peace. BOTH ways break her dreams about normal life – but if this is her choice, makes it sufferable – while if it is fate's bad joke, makes her bitter. But my theory, ofc. *** About Alrik: oh, it's a perfect explanation, that many pro-Templar player uses, that "Alrik made them Tranquil" and "Meredith didn't even know..." (and there is a letter from Alrik to another Templar-monster) – I think if Alrik was able to make tranquil mages without Meredith even realize, makes the things even worse. It means in this case, that the mages in the Gallows not even matter – tranqil/death mage is the best mage, who cares about how many here? (Then why they needed Karl...). So: the ones, who use this explanation shoot themselves in the foot – because of this, AND that this explanation absolutely makes Meredith and the Templars idiot, malicious or BOTH – literally unsuitable to protect and guarding anyone. And it's also clear: Alrik has supporters, who are able to die for him/his perverted ideas. We killed MANY in the Chantry (Karl's quest), and in the secret tunnel... (oh, I'm sure, it "just game mechanism"... – another nice pro-Templar argue...)
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 1, 2020 17:59:08 GMT
Or maybe there is no spinning of things, and they genuinely feel that way. Yes, they probably genuinely believe it was the Maker but I regard it as spin if you are trying to convince someone else who does not share your beliefs. Mind you it is odd that they should believe that one considering that a main plank of Chantry belief is that the Maker turned his back on humanity after the death of the Andraste and the only thing that is going to get him involved again is spreading the Chant. Now Giselle has the excuse that the big hole in the sky would seem to fit with Drakon's prophesy of the return of the Maker and Andraste, hence people calling our PC the Herald of Andraste. Of course not everyone in the Chantry believes this to be the case but clearly Giselle is confident enough of its veracity to claim it. Elthina (and everyone else who claims the Maker is getting involved in earlier games) are just contradicting their own beliefs. Which is why I question whether they truly believe it. "Maker moves in mysterious way"
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 1, 2020 18:18:07 GMT
Was is ever mentioned how the Halla were killed? 1) I'm sure it was mentioned, either by Merrill or another member of the clan, that they didn't take too well to travelling by sea and either died on the voyage or shortly after. Based off that halla in DAO that was pining for her mate, it maybe that after one or two died it had a domino effect on their well being. Suggesting Merrill used them for blood sacrifices was just stupid. Gives a bit of an impression as if the Chantry is a bit fond of concentrating mages there. 2) They did say that Karl was transferred to the Gallows because they had a shortage of experienced mages. That would make sense if mages there were routinely either being made tranquil, succumbing to possession or committing suicide because of the ambiance of the place. Also, again, politics might well mean that those City States with secular rulers not controlled by the Templars would be reluctant to lose their most experienced enchanters to a rival city's Circle. When all is said and done mages have proven very effective against external threats such as darkspawn and Qunari, so you'd want to keep hold of the best. 1) Yes, that makes more sense than any reaching fuelled by blood magic craze. 2) Now that you bring it up, I have to think of if/how individual circles might compete with each other, apart from revenue from selling enchanted merchandise. That is the thing though. Anders is having to approach the issue from the idea that the Rite of Tranquility is permanent and is always going to be used by the Chantry/Templars as a threat against any mage who challenges their authority. Since he, Karl and Bethany think that being made tranquil is worse than death (and they also use tranquility in Tevinter to make an example of mages who challenge the system), it is a serious sticking point to trying to reform from within. It is also interesting that already in Act 1 Anders is saying to Bethany that he doesn't think it is going to be possible to bring about change peacefully because of the RoT. Look at that, by using an acronym I have come up with a truism. "The Circles cannot be reformed peacefully because of the ROT in the system". Defininetly a good pun. Perhaps we could come up with one that includes RoA as well, given it was quite commonly used to exterminate people who stepped out of line (Diarsmuid) or as a cover-up/"kill all witnessess" measure after abuses (Antiva). I guess even with "the RoT" out of the way, just going Red Queen on troublemakers would still happen. It would need better excuses and would not be as economically convienient though. So Elthina can give Giselle a run for her money regarding how to spin these things. Or maybe there is no spinning of things, and they genuinely feel that way. Well, still an attempt to basically erase the deeds of people the Chantry tells you not to like, i.e. mages and elves (Not sure if Elthina also mouths off about a dwarven warden). I guess she does't pull this for Cousland wardens. And it's also clear: Alrik has supporters, who are able to die for him/his perverted ideas. We killed MANY in the Chantry (Karl's quest), and in the secret channel... (oh, I'm sure, it "just game mechanism"... – another nice pro-Templar argue...) Yeah, that's quite BS. According to that "argument", all the blood mages during the finale did not exist either, and the apparently bewitched templars are actually deserters.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 1, 2020 18:21:33 GMT
Yes, they probably genuinely believe it was the Maker but I regard it as spin if you are trying to convince someone else who does not share your beliefs. Mind you it is odd that they should believe that one considering that a main plank of Chantry belief is that the Maker turned his back on humanity after the death of the Andraste and the only thing that is going to get him involved again is spreading the Chant. Now Giselle has the excuse that the big hole in the sky would seem to fit with Drakon's prophesy of the return of the Maker and Andraste, hence people calling our PC the Herald of Andraste. Of course not everyone in the Chantry believes this to be the case but clearly Giselle is confident enough of its veracity to claim it. Elthina (and everyone else who claims the Maker is getting involved in earlier games) are just contradicting their own beliefs. Which is why I question whether they truly believe it. "Maker moves in mysterious way" Well, technically anyone could claim anything as being the work of the absent deity after the fact. Did the Maker act in Kirkwall? Through whom? Meredith? Bartrand/the idol? The Arishok? Anders? Corypheus?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 1, 2020 19:47:00 GMT
"Maker moves in mysterious way" I loved it when he said this in DAA because it was clear he was being ironic about it having probably had heard the "Maker wills it" so often whilst in the Circle. I think if Alrik was able to make tranquil mages without Meredith even realize, makes the things even worse. I had a lot of problems with this argument when people put it. To begin with I very often didn't get the chance to recover the letter because the Templar Lieutenant would be the last to fall and then it would go straight to the cut scene, after which we leave the Chantry. However, having made a point of recovering it, I still hold to the fact that you can delegate tasks but not responsibility and according to WoT2 Meredith is someone who very much likes to feel she knows what is going on, so it seems odd to me that she wouldn't question mages turning up Tranquil without her knowledge. It seems odd that people outside the Circle would be aware of the number of mages being made Tranquil and yet Meredith would be in ignorance. Also, may be they did things differently in Kirkwall but back in Kinloch Hold there needed to be two people approving of the procedure, the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter. So technically Orsino should have been aware too. Of course, may be that only related to apprentices being made tranquil and when it came to apostates or older mages being disciplined it was entirely the decision of the Templars. Still, you would think Orsino would be aware of people like Karl being made tranquil and can only think the reason he didn't make more of a fuss is that he knew he would be next if he did.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 1, 2020 19:54:54 GMT
Well, technically anyone could claim anything as being the work of the absent deity after the fact. Did the Maker act in Kirkwall? Through whom? Meredith? Bartrand/the idol? The Arishok? Anders? Corypheus? It would be possible to argue that when the 2nd Blight started only 5 years after the establishment of the Orlesian Chantry and the first Divine was declared that in fact this was a comment by the Maker on what Drakon had done. I would imagine that too much mental gymnastics would have to be undertaken to attribute anything that happened in Kirkwall to the Maker. However, you will recall that the statue they erected in the Docks celebrating the Champion's triumph over the Qunari did look suspiciously like Andraste.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 1, 2020 19:55:25 GMT
"Maker moves in mysterious way" I loved it when he said this in DAA because it was clear he was being ironic about it having probably had heard the "Maker wills it" so often whilst in the Circle. I think if Alrik was able to make tranquil mages without Meredith even realize, makes the things even worse. I had a lot of problems with this argument when people put it. To begin with I very often didn't get the chance to recover the letter because the Templar Lieutenant would be the last to fall and then it would go straight to the cut scene, after which we leave the Chantry. However, having made a point of recovering it, I still hold to the fact that you can delegate tasks but not responsibility and according to WoT2 Meredith is someone who very much likes to feel she knows what is going on, so it seems odd to me that she wouldn't question mages turning up Tranquil without her knowledge. It seems odd that people outside the Circle would be aware of the number of mages being made Tranquil and yet Meredith would be in ignorance. Also, may be they did things differently in Kirkwall but back in Kinloch Hold there needed to be two people approving of the procedure, the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter. So technically Orsino should have been aware too. Of course, may be that only related to apprentices being made tranquil and when it came to apostates or older mages being disciplined it was entirely the decision of the Templars. Still, you would think Orsino would be aware of people like Karl being made tranquil and can only think the reason he didn't make more of a fuss is that he knew he would be next if he did. I think, he was ignored most of the cases. But while it seems fair, that "a mage can decide about a mage" – I found it very cruel that a First Enchanter should be guilty on this. Nice work, Chantry: they should approve their own mutilation...
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 1, 2020 20:53:53 GMT
But while it seems fair, that "a mage can decide about a mage" – I found it very cruel that a First Enchanter should be guilty on this. Nice work, Chantry: they should approve their own mutilation... I think it was more a checks and balances thing to at least maintain the illusion that the First Enchanter had some control over what happened to the mages under their care. However, you will recall there was that oddity in DAI that only mages had the option of making someone tranquil. To be honest I don't think it makes it better that a mage is deciding the matter. That certainly doesn't stop it being abused as a method of punishment, as evidence by what Dorian says happens up in Tevinter.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 1, 2020 21:25:56 GMT
But while it seems fair, that "a mage can decide about a mage" – I found it very cruel that a First Enchanter should be guilty on this. Nice work, Chantry: they should approve their own mutilation... I think it was more a checks and balances thing to at least maintain the illusion that the First Enchanter had some control over what happened to the mages under their care. However, you will recall there was that oddity in DAI that only mages had the option of making someone tranquil. To be honest I don't think it makes it better that a mage is deciding the matter. That certainly doesn't stop it being abused as a method of punishment, as evidence by what Dorian says happens up in Tevinter. Yes, I know this was the goal. As I wrote ... it SEEMS fair. But far not. It's even worse. And yes, in the inquisition this was the goal as well: "Look, such a fair system!" I don't think so: this is hypocrite.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 2, 2020 15:18:06 GMT
Well, technically anyone could claim anything as being the work of the absent deity after the fact. Did the Maker act in Kirkwall? Through whom? Meredith? Bartrand/the idol? The Arishok? Anders? Corypheus? It would be possible to argue that when the 2nd Blight started only 5 years after the establishment of the Orlesian Chantry and the first Divine was declared that in fact this was a comment by the Maker on what Drakon had done. I would imagine that too much mental gymnastics would have to be undertaken to attribute anything that happened in Kirkwall to the Maker. However, you will recall that the statue they erected in the Docks celebrating the Champion's triumph over the Qunari did look suspiciously like Andraste. I never paid much attention to the compund area, as "sealed off" was usually enough to cut my exploration sprees, but since I was in screenshot mood recently. Apparently there's some construction work underway, big 'my territory' flags and all. The statue with the rhino helmet and backwards-bent hook staff is the same as at the Chantry. Not sure about the one with crescent-on-staff. For the champion statue, funny thing is, they did not adjust proportions apparently. It looks decidedly male. I think it was more a checks and balances thing to at least maintain the illusion that the First Enchanter had some control over what happened to the mages under their care. However, you will recall there was that oddity in DAI that only mages had the option of making someone tranquil. To be honest I don't think it makes it better that a mage is deciding the matter. That certainly doesn't stop it being abused as a method of punishment, as evidence by what Dorian says happens up in Tevinter. Yes, I know this was the goal. As I wrote ... it SEEMS fair. But far not. It's even worse. And yes, in the inquisition this was the goal as well: "Look, such a fair system!" I don't think so: this is hypocrite. I'd adjust this a bit to "illusion of checks & balances". It also could be seen as shifting responsibilty to the mages in part, to make the leaders 'complicit' (for the lack of a better word) in Chantry dealings. I'm 99% percent sure that templars cannot make phylacteries for example. For DAI, I've never seen it as an example for fairness or something. More an opportunity to either exhibit notions favouring traditional methods or (ab)using authority, up to hypocrisy levels. I mean, how many people ponder about a "fitting" punisment for Erimond, coming up with BS like "a mage's crime, a mage's punishment"? If I'm playing a mage who is opposed to Tranquility (especially as punishment), I'll have to live with the fact that I cannot exact "poetic justice" without compromising my character. Besides, pondering about him so much just makes him feel far more important than he is. Chop off head, be done. More important things to attend anyway.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 2, 2020 15:22:00 GMT
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 2, 2020 18:40:27 GMT
Somehow people from the Chantry always manage to place the blame on the mages, whether it is the functioning of the Rite of Tranquility or the state of the area. I had a conversation with Cullen today where I took the option that the situation is the responsibility of the Templars. This is the one where he admits that the perception of the general populace has changed towards the Templars, originally seeing them as heroes of the common people (I wonder if this was more what he wanted to believe), but now shunning them. Then he goes on to talk about persuading the mages of the necessity for them. So he totally doesn't get it.
Doing some background research on Meredith in WoT2, I discovered she has in fact been running the city from behind the Viscount's throne since 9:20, as Dumat was only allowed to assume the position because she thought she could control him. Plus the Templars have been getting involved in the politics of the city from that time at the behest of the Divine in order to protect Orlesian interests (you were right about that one Buckeldemon). Her predecessor riled the previous Viscount by bringing pressure to bear over the chains at the urging of Divine Beatrix, although he had always wanted to remain politically neutral. Then when he ended up being killed over it, that is when Meredith took over.
I wonder exactly when Karl was transferred to the city, before or after Meredith took over? Clearly the Gallows had never been a great place for mages but had become progressively worse under her. I do wonder why Varric says that the trouble with the mages only really kicked off in 9:31. I assume he meant the start of Quentin's crimes and that business with possessed Templar recruits but apart from them there doesn't seem any appreciable apostate activity causing trouble. Slavers seem a bigger problem to me and the Mage Underground is clearly not underway yet or surely they would be helping the young mages escape instead of them having to rely on Samson.
Anyway, to my mind it wasn't just the six years that Hawke and Co were active that led to the situation in 9:37 but the Templar/Chantry involvement in the running of the city as opposed to just the Gallows that had been going on since 9:20
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Nov 3, 2020 9:57:12 GMT
I agree, that the templar/Chantry involvement made things worse in Kirkwall. It is never a good idea to mix up religion and politics. I think, it is even mentioned somewhere in the game, that Meredith is the real power in Kirkwall, but I can't remember where.
I always thought that Karl was only recently brought to Kirkwall and that Anders reason for being there was mainly to help his lover. But I could be wrong of course.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 3, 2020 14:15:41 GMT
I agree, that the templar/Chantry involvement made things worse in Kirkwall. It is never a good idea to mix up religion and politics. I think, it is even mentioned somewhere in the game, that Meredith is the real power in Kirkwall, but I can't remember where. I always thought that Karl was only recently brought to Kirkwall and that Anders reason for being there was mainly to help his lover. But I could be wrong of course. When Hawke arrives to the city, the first guard (or the second?) says, that Meredith controls the city with her Templars, and Viscount Dumar is just her puppet. The Chantry intervened to the conflict of Kirkwall and Orlais, because of Divine Beatrix III. was the friend of the Orlesian Emperor... Karl was sent to the Gallows not much time after his and Anders' harrowing. Anders tried to escape, but they suspected it, and he got strengthened supervision. He succeeded, and as I know he was caught at the harbour – and then he was punished with that 1 year solitary confinement.
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fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Nov 3, 2020 14:38:14 GMT
I agree, that the templar/Chantry involvement made things worse in Kirkwall. It is never a good idea to mix up religion and politics. I think, it is even mentioned somewhere in the game, that Meredith is the real power in Kirkwall, but I can't remember where. I always thought that Karl was only recently brought to Kirkwall and that Anders reason for being there was mainly to help his lover. But I could be wrong of course. When Hawke arrives to the city, the first guard (or the second?) says, that Meredith controls the city with her Templars, and Viscount Dumar is just her puppet. The Chantry intervened to the conflict of Kirkwall and Orlais, because of Divine Beatrix III. was the friend of the Orlesian Emperor... Karl was sent to the Gallows not much time after his and Anders' harrowing. Anders tried to escape, but they suspected it, and he got strengthened supervision. He succeeded, and as I know he was caught at the harbour – and then he was punished with that 1 year solitary confinement. Oh yes, that comment from the guard, totally forgot. OK, then Karl was in Kirkwall for a while. Poor guy, I still feel bad for him. When you meet him in the Chantry and he becomes 'normal' for a short while, that was really heartbreaking.
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Wanted Apostate
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18,242
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catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 3, 2020 15:59:37 GMT
When Hawke arrives to the city, the first guard (or the second?) says, that Meredith controls the city with her Templars, and Viscount Dumar is just her puppet. The Chantry intervened to the conflict of Kirkwall and Orlais, because of Divine Beatrix III. was the friend of the Orlesian Emperor... Karl was sent to the Gallows not much time after his and Anders' harrowing. Anders tried to escape, but they suspected it, and he got strengthened supervision. He succeeded, and as I know he was caught at the harbour – and then he was punished with that 1 year solitary confinement. Oh yes, that comment from the guard, totally forgot. OK, then Karl was in Kirkwall for a while. Poor guy, I still feel bad for him. When you meet him in the Chantry and he becomes 'normal' for a short while, that was really heartbreaking. Anders speaks about to male Hawke, that it was long ago, still hurts him.
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Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
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fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Nov 3, 2020 21:50:16 GMT
Oh yes, that comment from the guard, totally forgot. OK, then Karl was in Kirkwall for a while. Poor guy, I still feel bad for him. When you meet him in the Chantry and he becomes 'normal' for a short while, that was really heartbreaking. Anders speaks about to male Hawke, that it was long ago, still hurts him. I think, he told that a female Hawke too. I heard him talk about Karl and I'm only playing female characters (and did the Anders romance only with female characters so far). I think from all stories in DA2, Karl was one of those, that hit me the most. It was cruel, what they did to him. He is the best example against Tranquility. I always dread doing that quest, because I know, that I can't do anything to help him.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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May 17, 2024 15:17:19 GMT
18,242
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 3, 2020 22:21:09 GMT
Anders speaks about to male Hawke, that it was long ago, still hurts him. I think, he told that a female Hawke too. I heard him talk about Karl and I'm only playing female characters (and did the Anders romance only with female characters so far). I think from all stories in DA2, Karl was one of those, that hit me the most. It was cruel, what they did to him. He is the best example against Tranquility. I always dread doing that quest, because I know, that I can't do anything to help him. And they did it just because they wanted to set up a trap to Anders...
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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May 17, 2024 16:43:43 GMT
26,697
gervaise21
10,819
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2020 13:23:09 GMT
And they did it just because they wanted to set up a trap to Anders... I do wonder how much his letters factored into that. We are told he had regularly written to Karl since he was sent to Kirkwall but Anders also mentioned how the letters between them suddenly stopped. Now I'm pretty sure Anders wouldn't have put anything compromising in those letters but we also know that Meredith started clamping down and seemed to be against any contact with the outside, except in the case of officially sanctioned noble families (where of course questions would be asked if they were suddenly stopped). So whilst it is possible to argue that Alric subjected Karl to the Rite without authority from Meredith, we know that she did use it for unapproved correspondence, so at the very least Alric knew that she wouldn't object to him carrying out the procedure. I think that Karl was sufficiently outspoken that he would probably have fallen foul of Meredith's regime even if Anders wasn't a factor. Mind you, when Anders said about the letters stopping, I instantly thought something was wrong and that we were likely walking into a trap at the Chantry. I just didn't expect to find that Karl had been made tranquil.
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
May 17, 2024 16:43:43 GMT
26,697
gervaise21
10,819
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2020 13:41:16 GMT
We went through the Deep Roads last night far more easily than on my previous run, proving once again that you don't need a tank but it is helpful to have a dual wielding rogue in the party as that is the only real difference between my two parties, mage Hawke being at least as powerful if not more so than Bethany.
I must admit I don't see how people say they felt grateful to Stroud for saving their sibling. I've never had Carver as a Warden so I don't know if Stroud was more willing to take him but with Bethany it definitely was down to Anders that she was saved, not only knowing where to find the Wardens but also persuading Stroud to actually put her through the joining.
Bethany may not be as happy in the Wardens as Carver is but it is not as though I forced her to go into the Deep Roads. It was her wish because she pointed out when it is a choice between Templars and darkspawn at least she is allowed to fight the darkspawn. If she had strenuously objected to being made a Warden I'd have gone with her wishes but I didn't get the impression she wanted to die.
I do find it odd though how far the disease was shown to have advanced and yet still able to save her. She looked really bad, even worse than Wesley and her hair had even started falling out (I had forgotten her change in hairstyle). In DAO Mahariel had the benefit of Dalish magic that can slow the onset of symptoms (confirmed in the Core Rule Book to be the case), accounting for why outwardly we showed no sign of the disease taking over. However, once it has it seems strange that it is possible to effectively reverse the appearance of the victim. If I recall correctly when Bethany turns up later she looks how she did originally.
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