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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Aug 6, 2016 13:46:10 GMT
^ I meant everyone who hates him. They think Anders' hatred turned Justice into Vengeance but I think he was already turning into a demon because he started to have desires.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 14:00:09 GMT
^ I meant everyone who hates him. They think Anders' hatred turned Justice into Vengeance but I think he was already turning into a demon because he started to have desires. I think it was a process, and Anders's anger also affect him. |
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 6, 2016 15:21:21 GMT
I think Justice decided back in DAA that he liked being in the mortal world, and that he also thought mortals were worth trying to help. So like Cole, he had a desire to stay and help, and he wanted to protect Anders and his friends.
But Justice and Vengeance aren't really opposites, so much as different extremes of the same thing...so Anders' anger pushes him more in that direction, and the more he was turned against his purpose, the more extreme he would become. I think it's telling how he comes out more often in the rivalry path, because there both Anders and Hawke are trying harder to suppress him.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 15:28:32 GMT
I think Justice decided back in DAA that he liked being in the mortal world, and that he also thought mortals were worth trying to help. So like Cole, he had a desire to stay and help, and he wanted to protect Anders and his friends. But Justice and Vengeance aren't really opposites, so much as different extremes of the same thing...so Anders' anger pushes him more in that direction, and the more he was turned against his purpose, the more extreme he would become. I think it's telling how he comes out more often in the rivalry path, because there both Anders and Hawke are trying harder to suppress him. Therefore, I think that a harmonic relationship able to reassure Anders, and also Justice, but a rival relationship will kill Anders. |
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 6, 2016 16:47:12 GMT
Anders is probably my favourite mage in Dragon Age.. and he likes cats (yes.. that's a huge plus for me). It's a shame that Ser Pounce A Lot wasn't able to make it into DA2.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 16:59:34 GMT
Anders is probably my favourite mage in Dragon Age.. and he likes cats (yes.. that's a huge plus for me). It's a shame that Ser Pounce A Lot wasn't able to make it into DA2. Just now, just for you!  source  |
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 6, 2016 17:10:18 GMT
Anders is probably my favourite mage in Dragon Age.. and he likes cats (yes.. that's a huge plus for me). It's a shame that Ser Pounce A Lot wasn't able to make it into DA2. Just now, just for you!  Damn refugees.. let the cats live in peace or gtfo  . I like this: |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 17:44:37 GMT
^ I meant everyone who hates him. They think Anders' hatred turned Justice into Vengeance but I think he was already turning into a demon because he started to have desires. I agree our Warden did play a part in that. Justice (reminding me a lot of Cole) was very curious about feelings and emotions because of Kristoff's memories and you can teach him that stuff, so that mixed with Anders hate, passion and desire was doomed to fail from the start. Justice probably also got a taste of those feelings if Hawke romances Anders too. |
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 20:39:51 GMT
Okay, Anders/Justice then:  |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 6, 2016 20:59:55 GMT
I think Anders and Justice both responsible for what happened. They weren't fully aware of the consequences when they merged and unfortunately had to learn the hard way. That's why I like to help Anders control himself rather demon-shame him, which I think hurts more than helps because he and Justice are one, they cannot be separated -- as far as we know at the time. I still firmly believe that coexistence is possible with spirits, within and without. So don't burst my bubble.And how dare you blasphemers slander Justice as a demon! Shame! "I am no demon!"  I think spirits/demons are more complicated than those two labels. Justice was beginning to experience the "mortal" side of life but that's not inherently, in itself, demonic. Justice was changing but he understood the dangers of these changes. Nathaniel has a great line about it that I can't remember verbatim, but it's something like "If you gave instead of taking I wouldn't consider you a demon." Which I agree, but that's obviously muddy. A demon's drive is usually selfish, whereas Justice exists to serve a black and white ideal -- of which he begins to understand is more grey than he thought. Joining with Anders just added rage to the situation, which doesn't foster level-headed thinking in the first place. The Warden can also comfort/encourage Justice about his new perspective, but I don't assign the Warden any blame. Justice and Anders were individuals and made their own decisions. So it's complicated, I guess is what I'm saying, and I don’t, personally, believe in the damning demon thing. If anything, I blame the Chantry for stunting a better understanding of magic and spirits. …I love Justice.  |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 6, 2016 21:34:27 GMT
By the way: I'm working on saving the information from the BSN Thread, fixing/removing some of the dead links/or links that will be dead. So if you'd like to add it to the OP I can post it here or something? (I won't pretend I understand how things work.  |
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 21:41:15 GMT
I think Anders and Justice both take blame for what happened. They weren't fully aware of the consequences when they merged and unfortunately had to learn the hard way. That's why I like to help Anders control himself rather demon-shame him, which I think hurts more than helps because he and Justice are one, they cannot be separated -- as far as we know at the time. I still firmly believe that coexistence is possible with spirits, within and without. So don't burst my bubble.And how dare you blasphemers slander Justice as a demon! Shame! "I am no demon!" I think spirits/demons are more complicated than those two labels. Justice was beginning to experience the "mortal" side of life but that's not inherently, in itself, demonic. Justice was changing but he understood the dangers of these changes. Nathaniel has a great line about it that I can't remember verbatim, but it's something like "If you gave instead of taking I wouldn't consider you a demon." Which I agree, but that's obviously muddy. A demon's drive is usually selfish, whereas Justice exists to serve a black and white ideal -- of which he begins to understand is more grey than he thought. Joining with Anders just added rage to the situation, which doesn't foster level-headed thinking in the first place. The Warden can also comfort/encourage Justice about his new perspective, but I don't assign the Warden any blame. Justice and Anders were individuals and made their own decisions. So it's complicated, I guess is what I'm saying, and I don’t, personally, believe in the damning demon thing. If anything, I blame the Chantry for stunting a better understanding of magic and spirits. …I love Justice. Absolutlely agree. (On the old forums was many interesting argument, topics, funny thing, I hope, something will saved from it.) |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 6, 2016 21:51:53 GMT
I think Anders and Justice both take blame for what happened. They weren't fully aware of the consequences when they merged and unfortunately had to learn the hard way. That's why I like to help Anders control himself rather demon-shame him, which I think hurts more than helps because he and Justice are one, they cannot be separated -- as far as we know at the time. I still firmly believe that coexistence is possible with spirits, within and without. So don't burst my bubble.And how dare you blasphemers slander Justice as a demon! Shame! "I am no demon!" I think spirits/demons are more complicated than those two labels. Justice was beginning to experience the "mortal" side of life but that's not inherently, in itself, demonic. Justice was changing but he understood the dangers of these changes. Nathaniel has a great line about it that I can't remember verbatim, but it's something like "If you gave instead of taking I wouldn't consider you a demon." Which I agree, but that's obviously muddy. A demon's drive is usually selfish, whereas Justice exists to serve a black and white ideal -- of which he begins to understand is more grey than he thought. Joining with Anders just added rage to the situation, which doesn't foster level-headed thinking in the first place. The Warden can also comfort/encourage Justice about his new perspective, but I don't assign the Warden any blame. Justice and Anders were individuals and made their own decisions. So it's complicated, I guess is what I'm saying, and I don’t, personally, believe in the damning demon thing. If anything, I blame the Chantry for stunting a better understanding of magic and spirits. …I love Justice. Absolutlely agree. (On the old forums was many interesting argument, topics, funny thing, I hope, something will saved from it.) Well, just the info of the Original Post there. I unfortunately don't have the know-how to save the entire thread. I just have to hope that Fexelea and others will be able to preserve as much of the BSN as possible. |
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 22:53:03 GMT
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Aug 7, 2016 2:30:44 GMT
I think Anders and Justice both take blame for what happened. They weren't fully aware of the consequences when they merged and unfortunately had to learn the hard way. That's why I like to help Anders control himself rather demon-shame him, which I think hurts more than helps because he and Justice are one, they cannot be separated -- as far as we know at the time. I still firmly believe that coexistence is possible with spirits, within and without. So don't burst my bubble.And how dare you blasphemers slander Justice as a demon! Shame! "I am no demon!" I think spirits/demons are more complicated than those two labels. Justice was beginning to experience the "mortal" side of life but that's not inherently, in itself, demonic. Justice was changing but he understood the dangers of these changes. Nathaniel has a great line about it that I can't remember verbatim, but it's something like "If you gave instead of taking I wouldn't consider you a demon." Which I agree, but that's obviously muddy. A demon's drive is usually selfish, whereas Justice exists to serve a black and white ideal -- of which he begins to understand is more grey than he thought. Joining with Anders just added rage to the situation, which doesn't foster level-headed thinking in the first place. The Warden can also comfort/encourage Justice about his new perspective, but I don't assign the Warden any blame. Justice and Anders were individuals and made their own decisions. So it's complicated, I guess is what I'm saying, and I don’t, personally, believe in the damning demon thing. If anything, I blame the Chantry for stunting a better understanding of magic and spirits. …I love Justice. I didn't mean Justice was a demon. Being stuck in the mortal world in a corpse would probably affect a spirit, and after meeting Aura, he indeed wonders what love is and probably wants to experience it. I don't believe anything Chantry says but I think demons really have desires unlike spirits. Spirits and demons are kinda same but they have differences like that. If I remember correctly, Solas says if you expect a spirit to turn into demon, it will adapt? I assume Justice wanted to help while merging but he was already affected by the mortal world and Anders' hatred didn't help at all. I blame Baroness for everything |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 7, 2016 2:52:25 GMT
Same here.  It's worth it to romance him as a male. It's very touching and I think adds another perspective beyond Karl.  I cant understand why some would be put-off by DA2 Anders, especially those who knew him in Awakening. Personally, I felt bad about it. It was saddening to see what happened because of his/their good intentions. I'm ok not seeing him again, though. I'd rather meet new characters. If he wasn't in DA2 the story would be completely different and who knows what he or DAI would've been like otherwise. As I understand they very briefly considered Velanna for DA2 --  -- but it would've been too complicated so Anders was very easily picked. But, if things were differentish but he was still merged wit Jusitce, I suppose I'd like to think that he might be a mix of Cole/Flemeth/Solas or something?  Since you've played Awakening, did you happen to hear the banter with Anders/Justice/Nathaniel? Because they foreshadow what happens. Anders and Justice talk about mages while Nathaniel and Justice talk about how the spirit might use other corpses or even maybe posses a living, willing person. When I met Anders in DA2 I was just "Holy crap. They actually did it!" Still lament the effects, but I was pretty amazed.  And I cant watch it either. I considered, because I knew I'd never be able to do it myself, but even just a vid is too much.  I read somewhere that writers thought Velanna instead of Anders but they didn't add her probably because Elves were more important than mages for her. Still, I wonder what would have happened if Velanna was in DA 2. She had an intense hatred in her maybe she would have turned into an abomination? I mean maybe she would have totally lost her mind and Justice/Vengeance would control her all the time? If I remember correctly, she shouts "Vengeance!" in Awakening while in a fight.  Yes, I heard the banters and I was kinda angry because of Nathaniel. I mean, how could you Nathaniel?! (still love him though) He told Justice possessing a living is OK. Also, while I was playing Awakening, I thought Justice was already turning into a demon because he started to have desires after meeting Aura. Everyone blames Anders for Vengeance but game lore says demons have desires so IMO there was something wrong in Justice in Awakening too. Foreshadowing was so intense btw. I was amazed too because they really did what they foreshadowed. I have seen such a thing in a game for the first time. Yeah, that's what I meant by complicated. Velanna defines herself as being Dalish so that's where he priorities lie. I'm glad they didn't pick her because, not only do I suffer the bug in Awakening where I can't do her quest (without a completely screwy work-around that I hate), I... didn't like her. Her + Justice = My opinion, of course. ;] (Though they did say the fusion with Justice might've just magnified everything that made her annoying to some. I have to agree. Too bad for Anders it voided his coolness for others.) Like I said in my above post, I feel the situation with spirits and demons is complex. I don't think Desire is necessarily a bad thing, just that desire is more often corrupted/manipulated. Justice might be a more unique spirit, though, since he didn't embody an emotion/wasn't as emotionally driven as others -- and emotions are typically associated with demons. Vengeance is the emotional reaction to joining with Anders, as he was hopelessly frustrated about being powerless, and their agreement to liberate the mages from the Chantry/templars. ...Sometimes I feel like I'm talking in circles about this and not sure if I'm making sense.  (Heh. Circles.) Edit: didn't see your above post. |
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Aug 7, 2016 3:07:48 GMT
^ Of course you're making sense. I may not make sense sometimes because I'm not a native speaker (as you probably have guessed  ). To be honest, I don't like Velanna at all. I just wondered if she would totally lost her mind after merging with Justice. Having desires isn't inherently evil, I suppose but it may be dangerous for spirits since they embody people's virtue. I agree that spirits are complicated. Hopefully we'll learn more about them in the next game. |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 7, 2016 5:45:51 GMT
Actually your English is very good! I wouldn't have thought you weren't a native speaker. My problem is that I'm only able to think out my thoughts while writing them, so things shift around a lot in my head while replying. That's why I'm slow... I agree that being in the mortal realm changed Justice. It offered experiences and perspectives he didn't have in the Fade. I'm not sure he wanted to experience all these new things so much as understand them and mortals? I know he says he envies what Kristoff had with Auora, but I'm pretty certain that his choice to help Anders isn't connected to that. Justice is still Justice, after all. He lives to personify the idea. And after joining with Anders it's pretty clear that any curiosities Justice had for romance is gone. Anders: "Justice does not approve of my obsession with you." --Duh. Because there's important work that needs to be done! Anders, you're such a slacker. And yes, Solas does say that. He also says that if a person is free of such corrupting influence then the spirit won't be harmed. Also: "Spirits don't work through emotions, they embody them." Poor spirits. They so delicate.  It's the "negative" emotions of mortals that corrupts them. Desires are strong, that's why they are dangerous -- I think they're one of the stronger demons, aren't they? When I said I blame the Chantry I meant it in more of a general sense. I feel that their fear is preventing learning, which leads to instances where like with Anders who wasn't as educated as he could've been -- as well as the upset with being a Mage in the Circle -- and in an effort to do good, does harm. Education is key. |
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 7, 2016 8:08:47 GMT
Okay, Anders/Justice then: That looks awesome (even though I'm not a fan of Justice/ Vengeance in DA2). |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 7, 2016 8:46:03 GMT
Anders is probably my favourite mage in Dragon Age.. and he likes cats (yes.. that's a huge plus for me). It's a shame that Ser Pounce A Lot wasn't able to make it into DA2.  feline fix  Link |
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 7, 2016 8:53:47 GMT
Anders is probably my favourite mage in Dragon Age.. and he likes cats (yes.. that's a huge plus for me). It's a shame that Ser Pounce A Lot wasn't able to make it into DA2. feline fix LinkDo I want to know which pic that was you just removed? Anyway your fix is nice.. there are so many good Anders-with-cat/-s pics out there. |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 7, 2016 9:02:34 GMT
Do I want to know which pic that was you just removed? Anyway your fix is nice.. there are so many good Anders-with-cat/-s pics out there. The gif didn't post so I had to add it back in. Happy you like it! I'm a cat person, so good pics with Anders+cat are especially special. (I think that's supposed to be Pounce-a-lot, by the way. ) |
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 7, 2016 9:11:24 GMT
Do I want to know which pic that was you just removed? Anyway your fix is nice.. there are so many good Anders-with-cat/-s pics out there. The gif didn't post so I had to add it back in. Happy you like it! I'm a cat person, so good pics with Anders+cat are especially special. (I think that's supposed to be Pounce-a-lot, by the way. ) Ah, damn gif, why you not work? Had to ask.. I'm curious like that. |
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 7, 2016 9:25:45 GMT
The gif didn't post so I had to add it back in. Happy you like it! I'm a cat person, so good pics with Anders+cat are especially special. (I think that's supposed to be Pounce-a-lot, by the way. ) Ah, damn gif, why you not work? Had to ask.. I'm curious like that. Curious... like a cat? |
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 7, 2016 10:40:48 GMT
Ah, damn gif, why you not work? Had to ask.. I'm curious like that. Curious... like a cat? Meow, someone found out my secret identity, meow. I'm curious but I don't get myself in trouble because of it. |
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I think spirits/demons are more complicated than those two labels. Justice was beginning to experience the "mortal" side of life but that's not inherently, in itself, demonic. Justice was changing but he understood the dangers of these changes. 
It's worth it to romance him as a male. It's very touching and I think adds another perspective beyond Karl. 
-- but it would've been too complicated so Anders was very easily picked. But, if things were differentish but he was still merged wit Jusitce, I suppose I'd like to think that he might be a mix of Cole/Flemeth/Solas or something? 
(Heh. Circles.)
).
It's the "negative" emotions of mortals that corrupts them. Desires are strong, that's why they are dangerous -- I think they're one of the stronger demons, aren't they?