Anders – "Nobody's perfect"

I always look at things from different perspectives which is why there are almost none characters that I don't like (at least in Bioware games). Most of them are relatable in some way. I'm just not a fan of what happens when justice takes over and that a lot of people give Anders all the fault for it.

I don't think that Anders is innocent. But I don't think he is an evil terrorist who likes to blow up buildings with many people in them either.  (Damn, I'm bad at having serious discussions in english.. sorry)
BTW I remember a scene were he was trying to tell hawke about to tell hawke about the bomb but then justice simply took over preventing him (without Anders remembering).

(Don't worries, my English also weak)

No, I also don't think, that he is an "evil terrorist" ("He was trying to change the world…"), and of course, he regret that ("There is nothing you can say, that I haven't already said to myself."), but I dont think, he regret that he made it impossible to compromise, he regret that this required too much victim, I think. 
That scene exist only in rival relationship. I also saw that, on YouTube (I never done rival with him, because I don'r want to send to the Circle anyone, and I dont know, possible the rival with Anders, if you are agree with him in the mage-issues). Yes, he confront sometime with Justice, but this fact don't mean, that Anders do not agree with the goals overall, just he often scared from Justice. (My opinion)

The reason I like the version where we know about Karl, even if not romancing Anders, is it really gives more depth and background to his story arc. I also like the parallels with other characters...many of them can end up losing, causing the death of, or killing somebody important to them. It's an ongoing theme in the game. When romancing Anders, especially with another mage, it's also interesting foreshadowing of what might happen to that relationship, and explains some of Anders' fears and insecurities with Hawke, and his anger at the Chantry.

Everybody's debating who is to blame for going after the Chantry and I have to ask... am I the only one who agreed with it?

I mean, I had the same kneejerk reaction as everyone else. Felt betrayed, murderknife'd him the first playthrough. But after I put a lot of thought into it, I changed my mind. People like to associate the Chantry with that nice little church down the street, but that is not even in the same universe as the reality of the situation. The Chantry is the church of the dark ages, very different from today, mixed with the SS. It's not an optimal solution, but that's war. War is hell. That's why war should always be the last resort. But war is the only way to stop the thousand-year genocide. "Peace" never had a chance, and sadly I lost the link in a hard drive crash but I recall one of the writers flatly saying on Twitter that the Chantry was never going to change without a fight.

I didn't mean to imply you had. I was honestly asking if anyone else agreed with him. It's great to hear. I find it hard to find other people who like Anders, and almost impossible to find others who agree with what he did. Most of us westerners have been coddled to the point where we think war is some kind of trial where only the guilty get hurt. Doesn't help that people make up all kinds of silly nonsense about how the Chantry had hundreds of orphans in the basement or something.

I blame the Chantry for all their ills. 

I don’t necessarily agree that Anders’ approach was the best idea but I understand completely why he did it. The “authority” made it very clear they have Divine Right to rule (not only) over mages -- red flag! Those who think such are doomed. Always doomed. They didn’t want change. They didn’t want equality. They wanted control. On their terms. The Chantry could only push the mages so far before finally being pushed back. If mages wanted to be treated like people, they needed to push. It’s unfortunate that there couldn’t have been a less… bloody change. Even without Anders, such a “rebellion” was probably inevitable. The situation was always going to get worse before it got better.

So… I don’t blame Anders. Or Justice. His attack was more symbolic than malicious, but it was still an “attack.” At the end of the day, Anders is the one who “shot first” by targeting "innocents" so he’s the “villain.” Never mind that mages aren’t really considered “civilians” with any standing outside the Circle. They were prisoners without rights or a voice. And never mind that Meredith couldn't see past her own paranoia. And Orsino was totally a blood mage. But of course, Kirkwall was the "exception."   I suppose it's all perfectly fine as long as mages are like Vivienne.


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And I'm not sure I felt betrayed by Anders, though? Until the Chantry kaboomed I actually thought he was going to go kamikaze on the templars or something, so I expected something bad... Guess I was kind of right?

To be honest, I wasn't mad at Anders or anything he did. I agreed with Anders' idea of change even if some people thought it was brutal and inhuman. I never liked Chantry or thought they were nice bunch. I thought Kirkwall Chantry deserved what they got in the end. I mean, a Grand Cleric who doesn't give a damn about anything that happens in Kirkwall and some religious, self-righteous Chantry bunch who don't help people in Kirkwall's Darktown or Lowtown? I don't feel bad for any of them. Elthina thought if she shuts her eyes tightly and wishes, Maker would interfere when the time is right. She had authority over Meredith but she didn't try to stop Meredith. She was guilty but some people claimed she was innocent. Her inaction caused her death.
I personally believe blowing up the Chantry was the final resort since Meredith went too far and didn't even let Orsino to talk Elthina. (though I believe Elthina would tell them to go home and be good children)  Meredith was looking for an excuse to invoke the Right of Annulment and Anders knew it. He knew she would blame the Circle even though they didn't have anything to do with his actions.
Unfortunately, most of the time change doesn't come peacefully. We can't sit around and wish something changes by itself, and Anders thought so, too.

This is important, I think something that most people don't realize. Place people in a position of certain, abusive authority and it corrupts them far more often than not. It's something that has been studied and observed in prisons where guards who are actually kind-heated people become tyrannical and commit repugnant acts to prisoners. Hell, there's even a line in ME2 that presents the idea in Purgatory when speaking with the prisoner about the beating of another prisoner:

(Not verbatim) "The guards who do it get meaner, so they have to rotate them."

It should also be noted that there's a codex entry (I forget if it's DA2 or DAI) that say templars are chosen because of their strong faith, not because they are virtuous. This leads to cases like Alrik who is obviously contemptible but has unbridled, extreme beliefs. The psychological effects of the Circles aren't limited to mages -- and then, of course, lyrium addiction which I don't see helping the situation in any way.

I think you meant "invoke" in which case I agree.

It’s interesting what “innocent” could mean in this case. Generally I think the consensus is that because people in the Chantry weren’t actively harming mages, that means they’re innocent -- and I don't blame every single person of the Chantry, of course. Just as not all mages are guilty or innocent. (And the people of Kirkwall unfortunately caught in the crossfire.) But as Leliana says “Even inaction is a decision.” Elthina was given numerous chances to intervene; even Anders says he’s turned to her more than once for help. She refused, because the Maker and blah blah blah. I place responsibility on her shoulders more than lesser clerics/whatever since she was the Grand Cleric. She obviously felt something for the mages, but was too blind to the situation and made herself powerless. Meredith should've been removed. Cullen and Elthina should've stepped in sooner, but...

So, I guess by her thinking, the Maker “willed” the rebellion or at least let it happen. All the more reason to side with the mages. 

I would've preferred a non-violent solution, but I can only live with what has happened. And will protect Anders from everyone, including himself. 

Don't worry, it's ok! As far as I'm concerned it's just a typing error.  And those plague all of us.   Here, have a hug:


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Elthina... that bitch. If I had my way, I'd have nailed her to a cross and left her to go slowly, not painlessly in an explosion. I do not, for one solitary nanosecond, buy her "neutrality" act and it astonishes me that most people do. She is so transparent. She knows that by "staying out of it" she's siding with Meredith by default. She just claims neutrality so she can save rotten, wrinkled face.

I mean, the grand cleric is supposed to be the one keeping a knight-commander in check. She's the authority over Meredith. She doesn't get to be neutral. That is not an option. If a policeman stumbles upon a murder in progress, he doesn't get the option to be "neutral." That's mindblowingly stupid.

She's the one who appointed Meredith to begin with. Obviously she approves of her insane style. She really lets her true feelings slip at one point when she says Meredith's methods are extreme "but magic allows abuses beyond the scope of mortals." It is truly a shame that she was never taken into a torturer's dungeon and shown first hand the abuses that are completely within the scope of mortals. Elthina is more responsible than anyone else for the atrocities of DA2. Even more than Meredith. Everyone else that played a large role had something wrong with their mind. Whether they were possessed by NotFrostmourne or just plain crazy, they all had something clouding their mind. Elthina however is of completely sound mind. She has no excuse.

That line really hurts. I was like "Either you really don't know what is happening, or don't care or abide by it" and none of those thoughts are reassuring. Along with the abuse of Tranquility in direct violation of Chantry law. I find it very hard to believe she didn't know about that.

The only line I thought was more laughable was at the end with Cullen: "This is stops now, Meredith, before it goes too far." So... suddenly killing Hawke is too far? Not anything that happened before? Wat?   Cullen, try using your brain. It's inside the thing that holds up all your pretty hair.   (I know devs decided he was oblivious, but damn.)