inherit
10160
0
Nov 16, 2024 16:06:57 GMT
4,911
burningcherry
1,336
May 18, 2018 21:58:48 GMT
May 2018
burningcherry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
burningcherry97
|
Post by burningcherry on Jun 5, 2019 22:05:06 GMT
It's an ideal population size in the situation they live in, namely when there are no resources to maintain more. But your numbers lie on an assumption that the map shows all the habitated worlds in the galaxy or that at least all the species are equally represented on it, which is plain false. I'm giving you the raw data as the codices and little blurbs that come up when you are scanning planets shows it. It's a fictional galaxy, nothing actually exists beyond what Bioware writes. Bioware chose to represent a much smaller number of krogan than the other species and a higher number of humans generally than the asari or turians. I repeat, you can extrapolate and interpret whatever you like... whatever suits your preference in this issue. I've satisfied my preference and answer a poll. Don't try to argue how I should vote. You can vote however you like. Right now, you are also making an assumption... that the map doesn't show a balanced sample of the habitated worlds in the galaxy. My assumption is just opposite to yours... that doesn't make it "plain false." If Bioware wanted to make it a cut and dried situation that the krogan numbers were so large that they would overrun the galaxy in no time at all... they could have easily just assigned them equivalent numbers to what they assigned the other species... but they didn't. They gave Tuchanka a much lower population than the other home planets and gave the krogan essentially no off-world colonies. There are so many colonies mentioned somewhere but not existing on the map, clicking this gives you 11 examples on the first page. None of the colonies Kirrahe mentions exist on the map, each of them, as hundreds of years old, counting possibly in billions, more than all the human colonies in space combined if their biggest one is 5 million. The Terminus Systems codex entry mentions periodical wars between "minor species", none of the known ones fitting the description. When you talk with Ashley and Kaidan at the viewing point on the Citadel, Kaidan mentions "dozens of species" inhabiting the station. From the above, we can pretty much infer that most of the galaxy's species are never even shown on-screen, from which it follows that equal representation is not the case. And I never touched the topic of your vote btw. Edit: just remembered that vaccines against bacterial fevers are distributed in tens of billions monthly during some periods (Cerberus Daily News, 03/07/2010). This is more than the entire galaxy according to your second post.
|
|
inherit
115
0
2,714
capn233
1,708
August 2016
capn233
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by capn233 on Jun 5, 2019 23:26:03 GMT
I've killed so many krogan, they call me the Genophage."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 1:51:10 GMT
I'm giving you the raw data as the codices and little blurbs that come up when you are scanning planets shows it. It's a fictional galaxy, nothing actually exists beyond what Bioware writes. Bioware chose to represent a much smaller number of krogan than the other species and a higher number of humans generally than the asari or turians. I repeat, you can extrapolate and interpret whatever you like... whatever suits your preference in this issue. I've satisfied my preference and answer a poll. Don't try to argue how I should vote. You can vote however you like. Right now, you are also making an assumption... that the map doesn't show a balanced sample of the habitated worlds in the galaxy. My assumption is just opposite to yours... that doesn't make it "plain false." If Bioware wanted to make it a cut and dried situation that the krogan numbers were so large that they would overrun the galaxy in no time at all... they could have easily just assigned them equivalent numbers to what they assigned the other species... but they didn't. They gave Tuchanka a much lower population than the other home planets and gave the krogan essentially no off-world colonies. There are so many colonies mentioned somewhere but not existing on the map, clicking this gives you 11 examples on the first page. None of the colonies Kirrahe mentions exist on the map, each of them, as hundreds of years old, counting possibly in billions, more than all the human colonies in space combined if their biggest one is 5 million. The Terminus Systems codex entry mentions periodical wars between "minor species", none of the known ones fitting the description. When you talk with Ashley and Kaidan at the viewing point on the Citadel, Kaidan mentions "dozens of species" inhabiting the station. From the above, we can pretty much infer that most of the galaxy's species are never even shown on-screen, from which it follows that equal representation is not the case. And I never touched the topic of your vote btw. Edit: just remembered that vaccines against bacterial fevers are distributed in tens of billions monthly during some periods (Cerberus Daily News, 03/07/2010). This is more than the entire galaxy according to your second post. You're still assuming that those unrepresented colonies are Krogan when they clearly aren't. Unless there are numerous specifically krogan colonies not represented on the map AND no more Asari, Turian or Salarian colonies out there, the krogan are not going to have anywhere near the total numbers of the Asari, Turians, Salarians or humans that would make them an overwhelming threat to the galaxy that you galaxy that would, IMO, necessitate the genophage ongoing to ensure that doesn't happen. I'm extrapolating using the ratios shown in the data (Krogan numbers about 1/5th that of each of the other 3 races represented). You're imagining a different ratio.
End of discussion. Vote how you wish.
Scroll down to the heading that lists them and follow the links provided. Population figures are shown for several of them that you can add to the list I provided already for the Asari, which was pulled from here and the pages linked to it: masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Asari and the Krogan (found here: masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Krogan
|
|
KrrKs
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: KrrKs
Posts: 781 Likes: 2,233
inherit
678
0
Nov 26, 2024 22:27:00 GMT
2,233
KrrKs
781
August 2016
krrks
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
KrrKs
|
Post by KrrKs on Jun 6, 2019 19:44:03 GMT
Hm, this is an interesting idea:
Per the population figures presented in the Wiki, there are significantly fewer krogan in the galaxy than any of the individual other species, including humans (which have been only expanding into the galaxy for less than 30 years). Since the genophage was, per Mordin, designed to not let the krogan numbers either rise or fall and provided that the Asari, Salarians, and Turians have not bee expanding their own numbers exponentionally over the same period, it must be that there were already significantly fewer krogan in the galaxy than any of those species at the time the genophage was first deployed. Therefore, it must be a myth propagated by those species that the krogan would or could overrun the entire galaxy in a short time span.
I totally much concur with your assessment that there are significantly fewer Krogan than other species members now, and that this means that there were fewer at the end of the rebellion. But I think that emphasized part is a bit overreaching.
All statements on the genophage, from krogan or non krogan alike, tell that there is one new'born' per thousand eggs. On average that is one per clutch. Per your own statements post genophage krogan only occur on Tuchanka in sizeable numbers. A single, extremely dangerous world (-not least because of the krogan themselves). A sizeable number of krogan leave Tuchanka each year. And yet their population on that world remains somewhat stable, more than a millennia after the introduction of the genophage!
Before and during the rebellion, krogan used large 'horde' and attrition tactics. With only a handful of worlds inhabited by them back then*, the krogan managed to rival the asari and salarians. Species that even back then must have had dozens (likely more) fully developed colonies. Even with the turians (IIRC twelve colonies at that time) on board, the krogan seemed to win. Using very large numbers of very poorly equipped infantry.
Given what we know about the krogan, I find it much more likely that the majority of warlords (and their troops) at that time simply did not cease fighting. So that the reduced number of Krogan at the end of the rebellion comes from the fact that most of them died. - See e.g., the infamous death of warlord Shiagur on Canrum who died near the end of the rebellion, but after the genophage was released.
*Please correct me on that one. I only knew of Garvug before, but there may be other planets besides the others three listed in the wiki. Though I'm not sure if bringing additional inhabited krogan planets into this would make the genophage any better (or worse) 
|
|
inherit
2754
0
Nov 26, 2024 23:01:44 GMT
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 6, 2019 20:09:34 GMT
Hm, this is an interesting idea:
Per the population figures presented in the Wiki, there are significantly fewer krogan in the galaxy than any of the individual other species, including humans (which have been only expanding into the galaxy for less than 30 years). Since the genophage was, per Mordin, designed to not let the krogan numbers either rise or fall and provided that the Asari, Salarians, and Turians have not bee expanding their own numbers exponentionally over the same period, it must be that there were already significantly fewer krogan in the galaxy than any of those species at the time the genophage was first deployed. Therefore, it must be a myth propagated by those species that the krogan would or could overrun the entire galaxy in a short time span.
I totally much concur with your assessment that there are significantly fewer Krogan than other species members now, and that this means that there were fewer at the end of the rebellion. But I think that emphasized part is a bit overreaching.
All statements on the genophage, from krogan or non krogan alike, tell that there is one new'born' per thousand eggs. On average that is one per clutch. Per your own statements post genophage krogan only occur on Tuchanka in sizeable numbers. A single, extremely dangerous world (-not least because of the krogan themselves). A sizeable number of krogan leave Tuchanka each year. And yet their population on that world remains somewhat stable, more than a millennia after the introduction of the genophage!
Before and during the rebellion, krogan used large 'horde' and attrition tactics. With only a handful of worlds inhabited by them back then*, the krogan managed to rival the asari and salarians. Species that even back then must have had dozens (likely more) fully developed colonies. Even with the turians (IIRC twelve colonies at that time) on board, the krogan seemed to win. Using very large numbers of very poorly equipped infantry.
Given what we know about the krogan, I find it much more likely that the majority of warlords (and their troops) at that time simply did not cease fighting. So that the reduced number of Krogan at the end of the rebellion comes from the fact that most of them died. - See e.g., the infamous death of warlord Shiagur on Canrum who died near the end of the rebellion, but after the genophage was released.
*Please correct me on that one. I only knew of Garvug before, but there may be other planets besides the others three listed in the wiki. Though I'm not sure if bringing additional inhabited krogan planets into this would make the genophage any better (or worse) As the old saying goes: "history is written by the victor" |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 21:04:39 GMT
Hm, this is an interesting idea:
Per the population figures presented in the Wiki, there are significantly fewer krogan in the galaxy than any of the individual other species, including humans (which have been only expanding into the galaxy for less than 30 years). Since the genophage was, per Mordin, designed to not let the krogan numbers either rise or fall and provided that the Asari, Salarians, and Turians have not bee expanding their own numbers exponentionally over the same period, it must be that there were already significantly fewer krogan in the galaxy than any of those species at the time the genophage was first deployed. Therefore, it must be a myth propagated by those species that the krogan would or could overrun the entire galaxy in a short time span.
I totally much concur with your assessment that there are significantly fewer Krogan than other species members now, and that this means that there were fewer at the end of the rebellion. But I think that emphasized part is a bit overreaching.
All statements on the genophage, from krogan or non krogan alike, tell that there is one new'born' per thousand eggs. On average that is one per clutch. Per your own statements post genophage krogan only occur on Tuchanka in sizeable numbers. A single, extremely dangerous world (-not least because of the krogan themselves). A sizeable number of krogan leave Tuchanka each year. And yet their population on that world remains somewhat stable, more than a millennia after the introduction of the genophage!
Before and during the rebellion, krogan used large 'horde' and attrition tactics. With only a handful of worlds inhabited by them back then*, the krogan managed to rival the asari and salarians. Species that even back then must have had dozens (likely more) fully developed colonies. Even with the turians (IIRC twelve colonies at that time) on board, the krogan seemed to win. Using very large numbers of very poorly equipped infantry.
Given what we know about the krogan, I find it much more likely that the majority of warlords (and their troops) at that time simply did not cease fighting. So that the reduced number of Krogan at the end of the rebellion comes from the fact that most of them died. - See e.g., the infamous death of warlord Shiagur on Canrum who died near the end of the rebellion, but after the genophage was released.
*Please correct me on that one. I only knew of Garvug before, but there may be other planets besides the others three listed in the wiki. Though I'm not sure if bringing additional inhabited krogan planets into this would make the genophage any better (or worse) ... and, as I've said, you're welcome to interpret the data however you wish. The part you bolded is my interpretation of it that supports my opinion as I gave it in my response to the poll... and that is all it is. If you find in game or in books mentions of Krogan colonies not listed in the Wiki, then I'd absolutely encourage your adding them or passing them along to who maintains the Wiki. My opinion of my opinion is that it is at least founded on some data, not just the stated prejudices given by the other races in the game. I think the data supports Wrex's statement that his people were dying (i.e. their numbers were on the decline) since the genophage was employed. If not and the genophage was doing what Mordin said it was designed to do (also prevent their numbers from falling), then it must mean that the numbers of krogan in the galaxy were significantly less than the other species even when the genophage was first deployed (unless the numbers of Asari, Turians and Salarians have significantly increased in the interim themselves).
Over the 30 years they've been space faring throughout the galaxy, the numbers show that they have increased their numbers significantly. There are 11.4 billion on earth alone (a reasonable projected increase from IRL population today). That 11.4 billion number IS more than the home planets of the other species. Then we can add in several million humans on other planets (just by adding in the ones given in the Wiki that we know the populations for - same premise used for the other species). I'm not sure I would count on the Turians, Salarians and Asari not eventually feeling threatened by human numbers as well; athough, admittedly, all the population numbers would have changed dramatically post Reaper invasion (despite what ending was chosen). What sort of myths they might tell to support such a move on the human population... well, that might be something for a future Mass Effect game. Seeds of such a thought were included in Andromeda when the Asari scans Ryder on Aya and, if pressed by Ryder, clearly wonders "how many of you will there be" when her grandchildren are grown up.
|
|
inherit
10160
0
Nov 16, 2024 16:06:57 GMT
4,911
burningcherry
1,336
May 18, 2018 21:58:48 GMT
May 2018
burningcherry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
burningcherry97
|
Post by burningcherry on Jun 6, 2019 22:38:40 GMT
My opinion of my opinion is that it is at least founded on some data, not just the stated prejudices given by the other races in the game. Now you're insulting me. You have compiled some data but your results are based on an assumption there's no proof for and not even a good clue plus they contradict three good chunks of evidence: – the first, most trivial lower bound for the galaxy's population is 95 billion, because this was the amount of vaccines against the simian bacterial fever that were supposed to be produced within one month during an outbreak in 2185. Only one known naturally occuring contagious disease in ME is known to affect multiple species, but let's say that this fever also does. Don't know what your projections for the entire galaxy's population are, but since you assume that everyone is equally represented on the map, you have to also assume (completely falsely, but let's continue this ad absurdum) that there's no race that doesn't appear on-screen and an upper bound for the galaxy's population can be given by multiplying humanity's approximated population by the number of major species appearing on-screen. This calculation gives around 100 billion people (correct me if your projections diverge much from this), so you're basically saying that there was a disease that affected all the known species and everyone in every quarter of the galaxy from a child to an old man had to be vaccinated and everything had to happen during one month. Now you can check how many vaccines were produced during the last plague in your country during the most busy month and compare it with its entire population. – statements of people within the world that aren't said in bad faith are a valid mean of loretelling and one of the councillors says about a few trillions of people, a number fitting a serious approximation based on the above – some key salarian settlements do not exist on the map while all the most important human colonies do, which proves your assumption wrong. Like which numbers? If we have to accept them all, the human population of the Citadel decreased three-fold between 2165 and 2183.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 23:54:44 GMT
My opinion of my opinion is that it is at least founded on some data, not just the stated prejudices given by the other races in the game. Now you're insulting me. You have compiled some data but your results are based on an assumption there's no proof for and not even a good clue plus they contradict three good chunks of evidence: – the first, most trivial lower bound for the galaxy's population is 95 billion, because this was the amount of vaccines against the simian bacterial fever that were supposed to be produced within one month during an outbreak in 2185. Only one known naturally occuring contagious disease in ME is known to affect multiple species, but let's say that this fever also does. Don't know what your projections for the entire galaxy's population are, but since you assume that everyone is equally represented on the map, you have to also assume (completely falsely, but let's continue this ad absurdum) that there's no race that doesn't appear on-screen and an upper bound for the galaxy's population can be given by multiplying humanity's approximated population by the number of major species appearing on-screen. This calculation gives around 100 billion people (correct me if your projections diverge much from this), so you're basically saying that there was a disease that affected all the known species and everyone in every quarter of the galaxy from a child to an old man had to be vaccinated and everything had to happen during one month. Now you can check how many vaccines were produced during the last plague in your country during the most busy month and compare it with its entire population. – statements of people within the world that aren't said in bad faith are a valid mean of loretelling and one of the councillors says about a few trillions of people, a number fitting a serious approximation based on the above – some key salarian settlements do not exist on the map while all the most important human colonies do, which proves your assumption wrong. Like which numbers? If we have to accept them all, the human population of the Citadel decreased three-fold between 2165 and 2183. Again... I'm extrapolating the ratios among the various species based on the numbers listed. No argument that the overall population is greater than the numbers shown or that there are colonies listed in the Wiki for which there is no population given. If the overall population of the galaxy tops at 95 billion there is nothing that says the represented species (still in their current ration) might only account for 50% of that total. However, you have nothing that shows that the ratios change dramatically either. If anything, since the Krogan specifically do not have a huge number of off-world colonies, being disallowed from having them after the Rebellions, there is likely to be an even greater disparity than the 1/5th ratio the numbers that do exist show. That is, there are probably more Asari worlds for which we don't have a population count than there are krogan ones. Fact is, the numbers shown for the krogan are much smaller than the numbers shown for the other species represented. The farther out you extrapolate, the gap only widens and probably widens more than a straight extrapolation indicates due to the inability of the krogan to establish colonies after the Rebellions.
As for the increase in humans... in 30 years they have established a long list of colonies (see the Wiki page on humans), several of which have populations in the millions as listed when you follow the links to those planets. For example, Terra Nova has a population of 4.4 million listed in the Wiki and, Simon Atwell clearly tells Shepard "it took 30 years to grow the colony that large." The population of Asteria is 188 million humans, Beckenstein 5.425 million humans... etc. Add them all up. A rather large population increase over 30 years that far into the future is also reasonable - given that the global population here on earth has increased 6-fold in the last 100 years. Even a slowing growth rate results in expectations that the global population will exceed 11 billion by 2100. If that figure is extrapolated forward to 2185 using the lowest annual growth rate estimate (0.09% - it's currently 1.07%), there would be over 23 billion humans in the galaxy by 2185 (assuming such earthly IRL limitations such as space and resources don't cause a catastrophic collapse in human population before then).
As for any discrepancies... Bioware wrote the numbers in the codices and planet blurbs in the games, along with other mentions of population. Someone compiled that info in the Wiki. If they add up to be too high, take it up with Bioware. In spirit, I think they are deliberate in their giving the Krogan a significantly smaller population base than the other species. They repeated the philosophy in Andromeda. Probably to specifically make the genophage debate morally gray... allowing for opinions to fall on both sides of the issue. Again, I'm just merely answering the poll and giving my reasoning. As I've said, you're welcome to interpret the data as you want. I doubt though, since it is a fictional universe, that anyone except Bioware can actually say which numbers are incorrect when a discrepancy exists. That's all. End Discussion.
|
|
inherit
10160
0
Nov 16, 2024 16:06:57 GMT
4,911
burningcherry
1,336
May 18, 2018 21:58:48 GMT
May 2018
burningcherry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
burningcherry97
|
Post by burningcherry on Jun 7, 2019 23:38:06 GMT
Now you're insulting me. You have compiled some data but your results are based on an assumption there's no proof for and not even a good clue plus they contradict three good chunks of evidence: – the first, most trivial lower bound for the galaxy's population is 95 billion, because this was the amount of vaccines against the simian bacterial fever that were supposed to be produced within one month during an outbreak in 2185. Only one known naturally occuring contagious disease in ME is known to affect multiple species, but let's say that this fever also does. Don't know what your projections for the entire galaxy's population are, but since you assume that everyone is equally represented on the map, you have to also assume (completely falsely, but let's continue this ad absurdum) that there's no race that doesn't appear on-screen and an upper bound for the galaxy's population can be given by multiplying humanity's approximated population by the number of major species appearing on-screen. This calculation gives around 100 billion people (correct me if your projections diverge much from this), so you're basically saying that there was a disease that affected all the known species and everyone in every quarter of the galaxy from a child to an old man had to be vaccinated and everything had to happen during one month. Now you can check how many vaccines were produced during the last plague in your country during the most busy month and compare it with its entire population. – statements of people within the world that aren't said in bad faith are a valid mean of loretelling and one of the councillors says about a few trillions of people, a number fitting a serious approximation based on the above – some key salarian settlements do not exist on the map while all the most important human colonies do, which proves your assumption wrong. Like which numbers? If we have to accept them all, the human population of the Citadel decreased three-fold between 2165 and 2183. Again... I'm extrapolating the ratios among the various species based on the numbers listed. No argument that the overall population is greater than the numbers shown or that there are colonies listed in the Wiki for which there is no population given. If the overall population of the galaxy tops at 95 billion there is nothing that says the represented species (still in their current ration) might only account for 50% of that total. However, you have nothing that shows that the ratios change dramatically either. If anything, since the Krogan specifically do not have a huge number of off-world colonies, being disallowed from having them after the Rebellions, there is likely to be an even greater disparity than the 1/5th ratio the numbers that do exist show. That is, there are probably more Asari worlds for which we don't have a population count than there are krogan ones. Fact is, the numbers shown for the krogan are much smaller than the numbers shown for the other species represented. The farther out you extrapolate, the gap only widens and probably widens more than a straight extrapolation indicates due to the inability of the krogan to establish colonies after the Rebellions.
As for the increase in humans... in 30 years they have established a long list of colonies (see the Wiki page on humans), several of which have populations in the millions as listed when you follow the links to those planets. For example, Terra Nova has a population of 4.4 million listed in the Wiki and, Simon Atwell clearly tells Shepard "it took 30 years to grow the colony that large." The population of Asteria is 188 million humans, Beckenstein 5.425 million humans... etc. Add them all up. A rather large population increase over 30 years that far into the future is also reasonable - given that the global population here on earth has increased 6-fold in the last 100 years. Even a slowing growth rate results in expectations that the global population will exceed 11 billion by 2100. If that figure is extrapolated forward to 2185 using the lowest annual growth rate estimate (0.09% - it's currently 1.07%), there would be over 23 billion humans in the galaxy by 2185 (assuming such earthly IRL limitations such as space and resources don't cause a catastrophic collapse in human population before then).
Where did you get Asteria from, it's an asari colony, established by asari a hundred years before humand discovered FTL and listed as an asari colony. Now, Terra Nova's description says that it has the highest population of any Alliance colony, which is false because Bekenstein is even bigger, but it sets the order of magnitude of the population of the actual biggest colony humans have. Since nothing bigger than Bekenstein is mentioned, let's assume that this is the actual biggest colony out there and do some, now serious, calculations.     Now we need to set some γ (and thus, x m) and estimate n and p. I'd say that a colony is a meaningful spot on the map if it's no more than ten times smaller than the biggest one, thus γ = 0.1, x m = 5x10 5. ME: Initiation has a dialogue about "a dozen" big human colonies and ME: Incursion seems to be confirming that this number is in fact low. Let's be generous, n = 50. Punching the penultimate equation into Wolfram, α = 1.82. For p, I assume a number slightly below the current urbanization rate on Earth: p = 0.5. The final result: 110 millions of humans living in space overall. This number fits the result of a simplified version of the argument: if the biggest human colony in ME has 5 millions of people then the overall space population should be similar to the populations of real life countries whose biggest cities number in around 5 millions – and this gives results in the order of magnitude of tens of millions. Now you can argue that maybe the asari of the turians also haven't expanded into space enough for their space population to be comparable to the homeworld but his has to be false since they're around for two thousand years and are shown to have built colonies numbering in hundreds of millions over the course of a few hundred years (examples: Asteria, Invictus).
Source code of the estimation if someone wants to add remarks: pastebin.com/05ZXxmuA
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 14:02:52 GMT
Again... I'm extrapolating the ratios among the various species based on the numbers listed. No argument that the overall population is greater than the numbers shown or that there are colonies listed in the Wiki for which there is no population given. If the overall population of the galaxy tops at 95 billion there is nothing that says the represented species (still in their current ration) might only account for 50% of that total. However, you have nothing that shows that the ratios change dramatically either. If anything, since the Krogan specifically do not have a huge number of off-world colonies, being disallowed from having them after the Rebellions, there is likely to be an even greater disparity than the 1/5th ratio the numbers that do exist show. That is, there are probably more Asari worlds for which we don't have a population count than there are krogan ones. Fact is, the numbers shown for the krogan are much smaller than the numbers shown for the other species represented. The farther out you extrapolate, the gap only widens and probably widens more than a straight extrapolation indicates due to the inability of the krogan to establish colonies after the Rebellions.
As for the increase in humans... in 30 years they have established a long list of colonies (see the Wiki page on humans), several of which have populations in the millions as listed when you follow the links to those planets. For example, Terra Nova has a population of 4.4 million listed in the Wiki and, Simon Atwell clearly tells Shepard "it took 30 years to grow the colony that large." The population of Asteria is 188 million humans, Beckenstein 5.425 million humans... etc. Add them all up. A rather large population increase over 30 years that far into the future is also reasonable - given that the global population here on earth has increased 6-fold in the last 100 years. Even a slowing growth rate results in expectations that the global population will exceed 11 billion by 2100. If that figure is extrapolated forward to 2185 using the lowest annual growth rate estimate (0.09% - it's currently 1.07%), there would be over 23 billion humans in the galaxy by 2185 (assuming such earthly IRL limitations such as space and resources don't cause a catastrophic collapse in human population before then).
Where did you get Asteria from, it's an asari colony, established by asari a hundred years before humand discovered FTL and listed as an asari colony. Now, Terra Nova's description says that it has the highest population of any Alliance colony, which is false because Bekenstein is even bigger, but it sets the order of magnitude of the population of the actual biggest colony humans have. Since nothing bigger than Bekenstein is mentioned, let's assume that this is the actual biggest colony out there and do some, now serious, calculations. Now we need to set some γ (and thus, x m) and estimate n and p. I'd say that a colony is a meaningful spot on the map if it's no more than ten times smaller than the biggest one, thus γ = 0.1, x m = 5x10 5. ME: Initiation has a dialogue about "a dozen" big human colonies and ME: Incursion seems to be confirming that this number is in fact low. Let's be generous, n = 50. Punching the penultimate equation into Wolfram, α = 1.82. For p, I assume a number slightly below the current urbanization rate on Earth: p = 0.5. The final result: 110 millions of humans living in space overall. This number fits the result of a simplified version of the argument: if the biggest human colony in ME has 5 millions of people then the overall space population should be similar to the populations of real life countries whose biggest cities number in around 5 millions – and this gives results in the order of magnitude of tens of millions. Now you can argue that maybe the asari of the turians also haven't expanded into space enough for their space population to be comparable to the homeworld but his has to be false since they're around for two thousand years and are shown to have built colonies numbering in hundreds of millions over the course of a few hundred years (examples: Asteria, Invictus).
Source code of the estimation if someone wants to add remarks: www.overleaf.com/project/5cfadb75e2d17a464b4c1fa3I've al I've already provided a link to the Wiki page entitled "Human" - Asteria is linked under the heading on that page "Human Worlds." Take any complaints you have about the raw data to those who maintain the Wiki. The link is in error then, but subtracting even 188 million from the total still doesn't change the fact that the krogan are represented in the galaxy with significantly fewer numbers than any of the other species. It puts the humans at 11.5 billion then. So what. Krogans are still sitting around 2.1 billion (about 1/5th of the other species). Extrapolating additional population forward (regardless of what precise rationale you use to do it) only widens that gap since we are told that krogan were disallowed having a ton of off world colonies since the ending of the Rebellions. Krogan numbers being 1/5th of humans, asari, etc. is as good as it gets, regardless.
1) If all the populations are just maintaining themselves, then it means that the krogan had significantly fewer numbers at the end Rebellions.
2) If the other species have increased such that they went from the krogan having equal numbers to the krogan now having 1/5th the numbers, it means they are expanding their populations at a rapid rate.
3) If the krogan had a lot higher numbers such that they had equivalent or greater numbers than the other species and the other species have just maintained their numbers since the rebellions, then the krogan numbers have dwindled from 11 billion to 2.1 billion in the years after the Rebellions. That means Mordin's math sucks and the genophage is not keeping the krogan from dying out... and Wrex's observations about "his people are dying" would be accurate.
Take your pick and interpret as you like. I say it all indicates that the genophage itself was not necessary and a ploy to maintain power by the Council races. That is my OPINION and why I voted as I did in the POLL... and that is ALL. End discussion.
|
|
inherit
10160
0
Nov 16, 2024 16:06:57 GMT
4,911
burningcherry
1,336
May 18, 2018 21:58:48 GMT
May 2018
burningcherry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
burningcherry97
|
Post by burningcherry on Jun 8, 2019 14:37:20 GMT
I've already provided a link to the Wiki page entitled "Human" - Asteria is linked under the heading on that page "Human Worlds." Take any complaints you have about the raw data to those who maintain the Wiki. The wiki has errors, that's why you need some minimal fact-cheking when reading it. I don't talk krogans based on your invalid estimations, only humans vs the other Council races because I insisted at correcting this specific thing. Fixing the link now and I hope we can finally end this topic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 14:43:08 GMT
I've already provided a link to the Wiki page entitled "Human" - Asteria is linked under the heading on that page "Human Worlds." Take any complaints you have about the raw data to those who maintain the Wiki. The wiki has errors, that's why you need some minimal fact-cheking when reading it. I don't talk krogans based on your invalid estimations, only humans vs the other Council races because I insisted at correcting this specific thing. Fixing the link now and I hope we can finally end this topic. Crikey - IT"S A GAME. I put my "fact checking" energies into things that really matter in my real life, thank you very much. I said in my first response to you that I had checked it well enough to satisfy it supporting my opinion on a FICTIONAL game built upon a FICTIONAL Milky Way galaxy. The problems related to human global population in real life are far more important. Do YOU think this globe can support more than 11 billion people by 2100? Bioware obviously based their estimates of the population of earth during the game on that actual estimate. Unless there are many more billions of humans out there in the galaxy though by 2185, they did not expand the human population at 0.9% (the lowest growth rate extrapolated by the UN so far) over that additional 85-year period, which would result in a galactic population of HUMANS of more than 23 billion. Given that, in the ME universe, the global limitations on earth that currently exist would be eased (space and resources) merely by expanding into nearby space (the moon, mars) and then the Terminus systems, what would prevent the human growth rate (based on earths 11+ billion population) from exploding to the higher rates experienced during the last 100 years on earth (that is, rather than 0.9% rising to todays 1.07% or earlier historical rates of, say, even the high rate of over 2% that was reached between 1960 and 1975. It's a IRL fact that the human population increased 6-fold starting with a base similar to that of the stated population of krogan (around 2 billion in the 1920s). It's a fact that humans can reproduce rather rapidly. What accounts for your extremely low estimates of humans in the galaxy over the 30 years since they achieved space travel when their starting base population on earth is 11.4 billion. What drops the human growth rate it from 0.9% to less than 0.1%? What's the message here for us?... and for humans in the MEU?
Sources for Human Population Data IRL:
|
|
inherit
10735
0
Jul 17, 2022 15:59:28 GMT
362
sassafrassa
292
January 2019
sassafrassa
|
Post by sassafrassa on Jun 10, 2019 6:24:02 GMT
Once Pandora's Box has been opened the Genophage is the right way to go. The krogan are a species physically adapted to a specific environment, one which does not predispose them to be very compatible with life as an interstellar species in the same universe with other intelligent life. The root of any species its biology and it has a real effect. You can't raise or teach all krogan to be passive, cooperative, and to care about the long term. The essence of the beast is in its DNA, which shapes its behavior. Ultimately, the Genophage may very well be what saves the krogan by providing an incentive for only krogan who display the above traits to breed. It would take many (krogan) generations but eventually the only krogan left would be those naturally lacking or able to control the blood rage and far-thinking enough to focus on personal development and family life, dedicated to just a few children, rather than birth hordes of aggressive warriors.
|
|
