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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 19:19:47 GMT
Agreed. That's kinda why in my theory (2 pages back in my initial post about this), I was hoping for a three front war, where yes, in any direct confrontation with either of the other parties you would likely loose, so the goal is to fight delaying actions and such, to get the others to clash as often as possible while they clash as little as possible with your own forces. Shepard in his stealth ship with an elite team of saboteurs and commandos would have been pretty well suited for that. Hmm... in a sense, don't we have that in ME3? It's just that Cerberus is the force in the middle
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 19:24:55 GMT
Agreed. That's kinda why in my theory (2 pages back in my initial post about this), I was hoping for a three front war, where yes, in any direct confrontation with either of the other parties you would likely loose, so the goal is to fight delaying actions and such, to get the others to clash as often as possible while they clash as little as possible with your own forces. Shepard in his stealth ship with an elite team of saboteurs and commandos would have been pretty well suited for that. Hmm... in a sense, don't we have that in ME3? It's just that Cerberus is the force in the middle Cerberus is just ... weird. Sometimes they are just indoctrinated (like on Sur'Kesh apparently), other times they work against both other factions. I can't really make heads or tails of them in ME3.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 19:32:30 GMT
Yes, fleet vs. fleet, the organics will loose miserably. That is established very quickly in the game. But it is also established that the organics very quickly switch tactics to more of a hit & run guerrilla type warfare, which would make it much harder for the superior reaper forces to control the space they have already conquered. The problem with this approach is that Reapers don't need to control space as much as the organics do. Planets are the organics' economic and military base, but for the Reapers, they're just a way to score harvest points. If anything, the Reapers should be using guerilla tactics on the organics, not the other way around. They probably would if the organics were a bit stronger.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 19:56:30 GMT
Not to that degree. Sovereign you could pass off as being a trash-talking antagonist. But the Reapers as a whole had Every Single Advantage and still screwed it up by the numbers. Not to that degree at that very moment, but it basically took the idiot ball and went for that touchdown when it decided to bumrush the Citadel. I guess this is more of a retroactive stupification of the character with the events of ME2 and 3, but just the same, Sovereign basically bought the reapers a big red pair of clown shoes to die in. It was, in a sense, an act of desperation. But at least it had the geth fleet to provide cover.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 19:57:18 GMT
Yes, fleet vs. fleet, the organics will loose miserably. That is established very quickly in the game. But it is also established that the organics very quickly switch tactics to more of a hit & run guerrilla type warfare, which would make it much harder for the superior reaper forces to control the space they have already conquered. The problem with this approach is that Reapers don't need to control space as much as the organics do. Planets are the organics' economic and military base, but for the Reapers, they're just a way to score harvest points. If anything, the Reapers should be using guerilla tactics on the organics, not the other way around. Good point. But it seems that harvesting is very very important to them. Also, I guess they might say that by occupying the planets, they deny the organics exactly the economic and military bases that are so important to them. But yea, it would probably be more efficient, to just destroy all major infrastructure and then move on for the time being.
It always seemed to me that the reapers have a bit of trouble adjusting their tactics from the previous cycles. When they had control over the relays, they just shut everything down and basically went system by system (at least that's the impression I got from Vigil's description. Now, the relays are still open (and for whatever reason, one possible one we've been discussing above, they don't want to go after the Citadel immediately) and they do move a bit faster but they still seem eager to maintain control, once established. This does kinda fit with the reaper's arrogant and superiority-complex like attitude that we've gotten to know from Sovereign and Harbinger though.
And they can afford it as well. I mean, until the crucible shows up at earth, there really isn't that much for them to worry about as far as the war is concerned. I think the turians managed to destroy one reaper capital ship in the miracle of Palaven with some daring tactics and a lot of luck. Oh and don't some resistance folks manage to blow another one up by smuggling nukes inside or something? A few more get damaged, I think but otherwise, it's only smaller reaper craft like destroyers and the expendable ground troops that are effectively even being fought.
So if they lost 3 capitals (including Sovereign) in this cycle, that's probably a major disaster within their history (and they'd probably mostly attribute that to the prothean meddling, without which none of this would have happened) but it's not like they are ever in a position where they'd have to worry about serious losses by employing the tactics that they do.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 19:58:00 GMT
he end of ME3 pretty well demonstrates teh Reapers could have taken the Citadel at any time. I say it doesn't demonstrate anything of the kind. We don't see how the reapers took over the Citadel. For all we know, they finally got an indoctrinated saboteur inside in position to prevent the arms from being closed, which they might not have before. That's headcanon, sorry. Thing is, the organics are playing defense. And you can't move your planets out of the way. You can only hit and run for so long, then you run out of supplies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 20:01:08 GMT
I'll rephrase... By the very start of ME3, the Reapers have a number of indoctrinated subjects available to them... at least access to having a number since they've had the Collectors at work abducting "specimens" even prior to the start of ME2 and before they settled down to the policy of just abducting humans. They also have the numbers inside the galaxy at the very start of ME3 to attack the Citadel first... rather than attacking the Batarians (who are of no real consequence by all accounts) and then the Turian and Human home worlds... but leaving Thessia alone until later. I understood you above. Yet, no matter how many indoctrinated people there may be you can't say with 100% certainty that they had any indoctrinated servant at the start of ME3, who would have been in a position to reach the arm controls on the Citadel.
As far as not attacking the batarians goes, well, they were in batarian space when they arrived. If the Alpha Relay were still operational, they could have gone straight from the Bahak system to the Citadel (which might very well have been their plan, who knows). However, since that relay was destroyed, they probably had to go through several relays and assuming that the batarians at the very least monitor - but more likely defend - their relays (and that the council probably monitors very closely any relays that connect council space to batarian space, given their strained relationship), there really may not have been any element of surprise to be had, even if they went straight for the Citadel.
As for the asari, it is mentioned in the game that the asari begin fighting the reapers long before they attack Thessia. Might just take them a while to get that far with confidence. On the galaxy map, you can see a clear progression of reaper controlled territories as the game plays out. Again, ME3 takes place over a fairly short time frame. As powerful as the reapers are, they can't do everything at once either and without knowing their exact reasoning, it's tough to say if their reasons for delaying one attack vs. another is foolish or not.
The thing is, the relay system is supposed to be set up such that each civilization discovering the relay nearest them discovers the Citadel shortly after. If the network is designed such that the Reapers have to go through several relays bopping them around the entire galaxy that puts a host of other minor targets and home planets "along the way" then they stupidly didn't design it to serve its purpose... to cause civilizations to discover the Citadel. Surely Palaven has a relay that connects directly to the Citadel. Surely Thessia has one. Sur'kesh must have the most directl connection since it was the Salarians who first discovered the Citadel. If all those species over all those hundreds of years had to go through Arcturus to get to and from the Citadel, then it seems almost ludicrous that they would not have encountered humans much earlier in the ME timeline than the Relay 314 incident.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 20:03:23 GMT
I say it doesn't demonstrate anything of the kind. We don't see how the reapers took over the Citadel. For all we know, they finally got an indoctrinated saboteur inside in position to prevent the arms from being closed, which they might not have before. That's headcanon, sorry. Thing is, the organics are playing defense. And you can't move your planets out of the way. You can only hit and run for so long, then you run out of supplies. 1) I prefaced this entire discussion by saying that I like to think of ways how the plot can work logically. You can call it head canon, I would argue it's better to assume things that make the plot work than just stating that it doesn't. The line of where reasonable assumptions are made and where head canon starts is so blurry it might as well not exist. In the end, you can either assume that certain circumstances apply that were not explicitly mentioned or you can assume that everyone is just stupid. I like the first option better.
2) Well, yea, sure but they (the organics) are so badly outmatched, they don't have many choices left. It's a good thing Hackett manages to build the crucible within a few months or so. From the looks of things, everything was about to crumble into pieces for the organics as it was.
@upagain : Doesn't need to be 15 relays. Basically, 2 or 3 would be enough. All it takes is for one message to get ahead of them.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 20:32:21 GMT
That's headcanon, sorry. Thing is, the organics are playing defense. And you can't move your planets out of the way. You can only hit and run for so long, then you run out of supplies. 1) I prefaced this entire discussion by saying that I like to think of ways how the plot can work logically. You can call it head canon, I would argue it's better to assume things that make the plot work than just stating that it doesn't. The line of where reasonable assumptions are made and where head canon starts is so blurry it might as well not exist. In the end, you can either assume that certain circumstances apply that were not explicitly mentioned or you can assume that everyone is just stupid. I like the first option better.
2) Well, yea, sure but they (the organics) are so badly outmatched, they don't have many choices left. It's a good thing Hackett manages to build the crucible within a few months or so. From the looks of things, everything was about to crumble into pieces for the organics as it was.
@upagain : Doesn't need to be 15 relays. Basically, 2 or 3 would be enough. All it takes is for one message to get ahead of them.
1 There's extropolating from what's known, then there's completely making up a story to make things fit. 2 Things should have crumbled a LOT faster. All of Citadel space had about 85 dreadnoughts all told. The Reapers have many times that number of Sovereign class ships alone.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 20:56:10 GMT
Do they? I'm not aware of any authentic Reaper count beyond the final ME2 cutscene, and many of those were retconned into destroyers. Any other figure is a fan estimate.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 21:12:21 GMT
Do they? I'm not aware of any authentic Reaper count beyond the final ME2 cutscene, and many of those were retconned into destroyers. Any other figure is a fan estimate. Codex: The Reaper War
The Fall of Earth
The Reapers took Earth in a matter of hours. The Alliance knew the first wave would arrive from batarian space, but they were unprepared for the speed and scale of the attack.
The Reapers bypassed the Sixth and Seventh Fleets at Terra Nova and Eden Prime, flying straight from relay to relay where they could neither be tracked nor intercepted. The tactic was unexpected, since the navies of organic species would never risk coming out of FTL within combat range or leaving enemies at their backs to threaten supply lines.
At Arcturus Station, more than a dozen Reaper capital ships engaged the Alliance's Second, Third, and Fifth Fleets. This was mere screening for the main force. Dozens more capital ships continued through the Charon Relay, where the First Fleet had been lying in wait but was soon destroyed. The Fourth Fleet, near Earth, had a few minutes of advance warning. It stood no better chance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 21:17:45 GMT
That's headcanon, sorry. Thing is, the organics are playing defense. And you can't move your planets out of the way. You can only hit and run for so long, then you run out of supplies. 1) I prefaced this entire discussion by saying that I like to think of ways how the plot can work logically. You can call it head canon, I would argue it's better to assume things that make the plot work than just stating that it doesn't. The line of where reasonable assumptions are made and where head canon starts is so blurry it might as well not exist. In the end, you can either assume that certain circumstances apply that were not explicitly mentioned or you can assume that everyone is just stupid. I like the first option better.
2) Well, yea, sure but they (the organics) are so badly outmatched, they don't have many choices left. It's a good thing Hackett manages to build the crucible within a few months or so. From the looks of things, everything was about to crumble into pieces for the organics as it was.
@upagain : Doesn't need to be 15 relays. Basically, 2 or 3 would be enough. All it takes is for one message to get ahead of them.
One message getting ahead of them wouldn't probably hurt their effectiveness much since that would give the Citadel at most a few hours to prepare. It's one thing going up against 1 Reaper and a geth fleet, but quite another if the entire Reaper invasion force is bearing down on the Citadel in a matter of hours. The premise in ME1 was that they needed the keepers to open the Relay to allow the Reaper invasion force out of dark space. Sabotaging the arms was never mentioned as being something the keepers needed to do. The problem, as described by Vigil, was the Sovereign alone would not have survived "the forces of every organic species" which would have become united against it.
Vigil's description of the Citadel as the "hub" of the Relay network also indicates that the Reapers, once inside the galaxy, would not have had to go around Robin Hood's barn to get there since all spokes should lead to a hub. It's also too valuable a target for the Reapers to leave unattacked for all the months it takes the humans to build the Crucible. It's the key to all the galaxy's communications and transportation and contains all the census data and everything else the Reapers need to know about every civilization they are trying to harvest. Grab a SA ship, fill it with geth, land in the docks and shoot your way in to Citadel Control. It worked for Cerberus during the coup. It could have worked even easier for the Reapers.
Another discrepancy in Vigil's dialogue. He indicates that all the worlds were "stripped bare" of every resource. There is no way and galaxy so stripped (even on non-renewable resources like minerals) would recover sentient space-faring life in only 50,000 years. The premise as stated in ME1 was completely ludicrous.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 21:23:50 GMT
1 There's extropolating from what's known, then there's completely making up a story to make things fit. 2 Things should have crumbled a LOT faster. All of Citadel space had about 85 dreadnoughts all told. The Reapers have many times that number of Sovereign class ships alone. 1. So? What's the harm in that? In a way, it's still extrapolating because otherwise, as you say, it wouldn't fit.
2. Again, space is big and with FTL travel and tracking being what it is, you can make a small force last quite some time. Given that the reapers themselves don't seem to be too worried about fighting this was super efficiently (see my response to alcean above), Once they do decide to go after a planet, they seem to just curb stomp it's major defences in a matter of hours, as we see it happen on Earth, Palaven and Thessia, which must be the most heavily defended worlds in the galaxy. So it's not like the game doesn't establish their might. I can see it just work out that way under the right circumstances. I mean, in the end, it is what it is.
@upagain : If the keepers would have "worked", the citadel itself would have become a relay. At that point, the arms would possibly have been locked open and also, the reapers would probably have emerged right on top of the tower or something. So in that scenario, the issue of attacking the station from the outside by coming through the other relays and then flying over would not have occured.
Vigil describes the Citadel as the hub of the relay network because, yes, it has a fairly central location but also because it was able to control the network. None of this means that there need be direct connection to everywhere. In fact, both the galaxy map as well as descriptions in the novels (talking about several relay jumps to reach it) imply that the Citadel does not connect to everywhere. And no, the reapers cannot take a special short cut. This is explicitly mentioned in Arrival. They wanted to use the Alpha Relay (the Bahak Relay), because it was special in that it would have directly connected to the Citadel. Both Dr. Kenson and the Codex mention this.
As far as the Cerberus Coup is concerned, they had their insiders, The dudes in C-Sec and frigging Udina and even during their coup, they never got to the tower in force, so if the reapers (who probably didn't have inside people that high up at that point) tried that, they might also have failed. Also, I will say that the coup isn't exactly regarded as a high point in ME3 writing either.
As forVigil's comments on stripping recources, I always interpreted that as stripping them from those planets occupied by the protheans (or any harvested civilizations) and possibly also meaning "their resources", not necessarily strip mining the entire planet. Anything else wouldn't make sense as you say. I mean, even Therum, which had a prothean outpost is still a mining colony these days. The reaper's don't seem to have been as thorough as Vigil seems to think anyway. Just look at Feros, they basically left the entire city around Zhu's Hope standing. Remember that Vigil only has knowladge of what the Illos team observed and deducted/speculated on (he even mentions this, I think). He is not a 100% reliable source.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 31, 2019 21:28:29 GMT
Not to that degree at that very moment, but it basically took the idiot ball and went for that touchdown when it decided to bumrush the Citadel. I guess this is more of a retroactive stupification of the character with the events of ME2 and 3, but just the same, Sovereign basically bought the reapers a big red pair of clown shoes to die in. It was, in a sense, an act of desperation. But at least it had the geth fleet to provide cover. Too bad even that desperation was retroactively trivialized by the fleets arriving just 2.5 years later. Harbinger: "Sovereign was always a loose cannon." Destroyer: "I can't believe I looked up to him." Harbinger: "Now you know why we left him behind."
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 21:35:12 GMT
1 There's extropolating from what's known, then there's completely making up a story to make things fit. 2 Things should have crumbled a LOT faster. All of Citadel space had about 85 dreadnoughts all told. The Reapers have many times that number of Sovereign class ships alone. 1. So? What's the harm in that? In a way, it's still extrapolating because otherwise, as you say, it wouldn't fit.
2. Again, space is big and with FTL travel and tracking being what it is, you can make a small force last quite some time. Given that the reapers themselves don't seem to be too worried about fighting this was super efficiently (see my response to alcean above), Once they do decide to go after a planet, they seem to just curb stomp it's major defences in a matter of hours, as we see it happen on Earth, Palaven and Thessia, which must be the most heavily defended worlds in the galaxy. So it's not like the game doesn't establish their might. I can see it just work out that way under the right circumstances. I mean, in the end, it is what it is.
1 Extrapolating is taking facts that already exist and building on it from there. Then there's doing the writer's job for them. 2. Yes the Reapers are brutal in putting down the planets. But they are sloppy af. Totally out of character for the methodical mahine intelligences Vigil told us about before. The ones that would totally cut off a world from the rest and make sure they couldn't coordinate with each other. The ambush predators that would isolate and strike, minimizing casualties on their side. Not this haphazard shooting off in a bunch of directions letting these monkeys with assault rifles blow up their capital ships. simply because We Have Reserves
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 21:36:38 GMT
It was, in a sense, an act of desperation. But at least it had the geth fleet to provide cover. Too bad even that desperation was retroactively trivialized by the fleets arriving just 2.5 years later. Harbinger: "Sovereign was always a loose cannon." Destroyer: "I can't believe I looked up to him." Harbinger: "Now you know why we left him behind." Particularly since it was implied that this was Sovereign's SECOND attempt to attack the Citadel, and that the Rachni Wars happened because Sovereign indoctrinated them.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 21:44:55 GMT
1. So? What's the harm in that? In a way, it's still extrapolating because otherwise, as you say, it wouldn't fit.
2. Again, space is big and with FTL travel and tracking being what it is, you can make a small force last quite some time. Given that the reapers themselves don't seem to be too worried about fighting this was super efficiently (see my response to alcean above), Once they do decide to go after a planet, they seem to just curb stomp it's major defences in a matter of hours, as we see it happen on Earth, Palaven and Thessia, which must be the most heavily defended worlds in the galaxy. So it's not like the game doesn't establish their might. I can see it just work out that way under the right circumstances. I mean, in the end, it is what it is.
1 Extrapolating is taking facts that already exist and building on it from there. Then there's doing the writer's job for them. 2. Yes the Reapers are brutal in putting down the planets. But they are sloppy af. Totally out of character for the methodical mahine intelligences Vigil told us about before. The ones that would totally cut off a world from the rest and make sure they couldn't coordinate with each other. The ambush predators that would isolate and strike, minimizing casualties on their side. Not this haphazard shooting off in a bunch of directions letting these monkeys with assault rifles blow up their capital ships. simply because We Have Reserves 1. Again, I don't see the harm.
2. Yes but see my edit above in response to @uoagain . The reapers were also pretty sloppy in past cycles, actually, Vigil does not have to be an entirely reliable source and cutting off worlds is something they kinda got "for free" when they came through the Citadel. They never really had to do it "manually" as they do now. So there really not much precedent that should give us expectations.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 22:14:56 GMT
I think it's more useful to read Sovereign's attack as arrogance and impatience rather than desperation. (Probably didn't want to admit to his Reaper buddies just how badly he'd screwed up; I've had work days like that.)
And with Saren actually in control of the command center it wouldn't have looked like much of a risk, since as long as the arms stayed closed Sovereign was invulnerable.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 31, 2019 22:19:16 GMT
Do they? I'm not aware of any authentic Reaper count beyond the final ME2 cutscene, and many of those were retconned into destroyers. Any other figure is a fan estimate. Codex: The Reaper War
The Fall of Earth
The Reapers took Earth in a matter of hours. The Alliance knew the first wave would arrive from batarian space, but they were unprepared for the speed and scale of the attack.
The Reapers bypassed the Sixth and Seventh Fleets at Terra Nova and Eden Prime, flying straight from relay to relay where they could neither be tracked nor intercepted. The tactic was unexpected, since the navies of organic species would never risk coming out of FTL within combat range or leaving enemies at their backs to threaten supply lines.
At Arcturus Station, more than a dozen Reaper capital ships engaged the Alliance's Second, Third, and Fifth Fleets. This was mere screening for the main force. Dozens more capital ships continued through the Charon Relay, where the First Fleet had been lying in wait but was soon destroyed. The Fourth Fleet, near Earth, had a few minutes of advance warning. It stood no better chance. That works out to, what, 80 or so capital ships? Depends on how many dozens are in that "dozens more."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 22:51:32 GMT
1 There's extropolating from what's known, then there's completely making up a story to make things fit. 2 Things should have crumbled a LOT faster. All of Citadel space had about 85 dreadnoughts all told. The Reapers have many times that number of Sovereign class ships alone. 1. So? What's the harm in that? In a way, it's still extrapolating because otherwise, as you say, it wouldn't fit.
2. Again, space is big and with FTL travel and tracking being what it is, you can make a small force last quite some time. Given that the reapers themselves don't seem to be too worried about fighting this was super efficiently (see my response to alcean above), Once they do decide to go after a planet, they seem to just curb stomp it's major defences in a matter of hours, as we see it happen on Earth, Palaven and Thessia, which must be the most heavily defended worlds in the galaxy. So it's not like the game doesn't establish their might. I can see it just work out that way under the right circumstances. I mean, in the end, it is what it is.
@upagain : If the keepers would have "worked", the citadel itself would have become a relay. At that point, the arms would possibly have been locked open and also, the reapers would probably have emerged right on top of the tower or something. So in that scenario, the issue of attacking the station from the outside by coming through the other relays and then flying over would not have occured.
Vigil describes the Citadel as the hub of the relay network because, yes, it has a fairly central location but also because it was able to control the network. None of this means that there need be direct connection to everywhere. In fact, both the galaxy map as well as descriptions in the novels (talking about several relay jumps to reach it) imply that the Citadel does not connect to everywhere. And no, the reapers cannot take a special short cut. This is explicitly mentioned in Arrival. They wanted to use the Alpha Relay (the Bahak Relay), because it was special in that it would have directly connected to the Citadel. Both Dr. Kenson and the Codex mention this.
As far as the Cerberus Coup is concerned, they had their insiders, The dudes in C-Sec and frigging Udina and even during their coup, they never got to the tower in force, so if the reapers (who probably didn't have inside people that high up at that point) tried that, they might also have failed. Also, I will say that the coup isn't exactly regarded as a high point in ME3 writing either.
As forVigil's comments on stripping recources, I always interpreted that as stripping them from those planets occupied by the protheans (or any harvested civilizations) and possibly also meaning "their resources", not necessarily strip mining the entire planet. Anything else wouldn't make sense as you say. I mean, even Therum, which had a prothean outpost is still a mining colony these days. The reaper's don't seem to have been as thorough as Vigil seems to think anyway. Just look at Feros, they basically left the entire city around Zhu's Hope standing. Remember that Vigil only has knowladge of what the Illos team observed and deducted/speculated on (he even mentions this, I think). He is not a 100% reliable source.
The Ciadel being an actual hub would, however, be a more logical network construction for something that has a stated purpose of being found by multiple species coming from multiple different directions in the galaxy. Since the Reapers want these civilizations to develop along certain paths, it behooves them to facilitate those paths as being the "paths of least resistance." I know the network is not designed that way... and I'm saying it is poorly designed as a result.
Personally, it don't think that justifies the Reapers not attacking the Citadel right away or at least breaking off their attacks on the home worlds sooner and going after the Citadel immediately following their initial assaults. They should not have allowed themselves to get bogged down rounding up people and incarcerating them on Earth or get stuck fighting the Turians on Palaven's moon. If they hit the planets first, they should have "hit and run" and made sure they got the Citadel out of commission as soon as possible... giving the species no time to even try to build a Crucible (since they apparently knew the design would ultimately need to be attached to the Citadel).
Same with the opening issue. Vigil says, for example, that the Reapers sealed the Citadel Relay behind them as they left. If their purpose was to prevent the MW species from entering dark space, don't you think the locking mechanism should be unlockable from the Reaper side and not have to rely on it being unlocked by the keepers from the MW side? At the end of each cycle, the Reapers, in effect, lock themselves out of their own house by leaving the key inside the house. What if a smart civilization discovered that key to opening the Citadel Relay without the keepers (using the Master Control console that Saren used). Those species could then enter dark space and discover the Reapers while they are hibernating... and wipe them out.
I don't mind that you headcanon to try to reconcile it. I do the same. We really have no choice. All I'm saying is that the bad premise starts right at the start in ME1. It's not something that was just suddenly made bad by the writing in ME2 and ME3. Moreso, I feel that ME2 and ME3 just failed at trying to fix ME1's mistakes. Something which many of us here are, evidently, failing also at doing.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 31, 2019 23:17:35 GMT
Codex: The Reaper War
The Fall of Earth
The Reapers took Earth in a matter of hours. The Alliance knew the first wave would arrive from batarian space, but they were unprepared for the speed and scale of the attack.
The Reapers bypassed the Sixth and Seventh Fleets at Terra Nova and Eden Prime, flying straight from relay to relay where they could neither be tracked nor intercepted. The tactic was unexpected, since the navies of organic species would never risk coming out of FTL within combat range or leaving enemies at their backs to threaten supply lines.
At Arcturus Station, more than a dozen Reaper capital ships engaged the Alliance's Second, Third, and Fifth Fleets. This was mere screening for the main force. Dozens more capital ships continued through the Charon Relay, where the First Fleet had been lying in wait but was soon destroyed. The Fourth Fleet, near Earth, had a few minutes of advance warning. It stood no better chance. That works out to, what, 80 or so capital ships? Depends on how many dozens are in that "dozens more." Even if we lowballed it, and said "only" 50 Sovereigns plus destroyer escorts and such stormed the Sol system, that's more than enough to lock down the entire freaking system and make sure no one escaped.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2019 23:26:24 GMT
The reapers were fine until the prothean scientists somehow were able to alter the signal preventing the reapers from getting back in the Milky Way via the Citadel. Why change something that's been working for a very long time? Bioware had to make the reapers stupid for this cycle to have any chance of destroying them.
Why couldn't the reapers travel to the Milky Way after Sovereign wasn't able to get the Citadel relay opened however long ago?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 31, 2019 23:31:56 GMT
The Ciadel being an actual hub would, however, be a more logical network construction for something that has a stated purpose of being found by multiple species coming from multiple different directions in the galaxy. Since the Reapers want these civilizations to develop along certain paths, it behooves them to facilitate those paths as being the "paths of least resistance." I know the network is not designed that way... and I'm saying it is poorly designed as a result.
Personally, it don't think that justifies the Reapers not attacking the Citadel right away or at least breaking off their attacks on the home worlds sooner and going after the Citadel immediately following their initial assaults. They should not have allowed themselves to get bogged down rounding up people and incarcerating them on Earth or get stuck fighting the Turians on Palaven's moon. If they hit the planets first, they should have "hit and run" and made sure they got the Citadel out of commission as soon as possible... giving the species no time to even try to build a Crucible (since they apparently knew the design would ultimately need to be attached to the Citadel).
Same with the opening issue. Vigil says, for example, that the Reapers sealed the Citadel Relay behind them as they left. If their purpose was to prevent the MW species from entering dark space, don't you think the locking mechanism should be unlockable from the Reaper side and not have to rely on it being unlocked by the keepers from the MW side? At the end of each cycle, the Reapers, in effect, lock themselves out of their own house by leaving the key inside the house. What if a smart civilization discovered that key to opening the Citadel Relay without the keepers (using the Master Control console that Saren used). Those species could then enter dark space and discover the Reapers while they are hibernating... and wipe them out.
I don't mind that you headcanon to try to reconcile it. I do the same. We really have no choice. All I'm saying is that the bad premise starts right at the start in ME1. It's not something that was just suddenly made bad by the writing in ME2 and ME3. Moreso, I feel that ME2 and ME3 just failed at trying to fix ME1's mistakes. Something which many of us here are, evidently, failing also at doing.
Yea, I guess it's never really explained why the relay network is built as is. It might make sense in that the reapers might want one primary species to come out each cycle (remember how they keep saying in ME3 that our diversity is one of our strengths). Making the station easier to access for one race over others might help with that. Who knows, they might even relocate the Citadel if needed to "set up" the new cycle. Though I'd have to admit, it wouldn't have been very smart to set it up for the asari this time, since their mating habits and mind set kinda proliferated our diversity. But then, maybe they try to experiment and try different things each cycle? Who knows. As Mac Walters would say "plenty of speculation for everyone". I wouldn't consider it plot hole, just something that remained rather vague.
And don't get me wrong. I also think hitting the Citadel first would - on first glance - be the correct tactical move. Again, I am just trying to come up with a reasonable explanation for why they didn't, assuming they are very intelligent. Granted, my explanation takes 3 or 4 steps, but I still think it works.
As for the opening issue. I agree with you on all of the facts but I don't agree that it was a dumb setup to begin with. Quite the opposite. When I first heard Vigil's dialogue in 2008, I thought it was an ingenious and really creative idea and setup. I didn't think it was dumb at all. Why not? Because it never even occurred to me that the Citadel relay would be the reaper's only way to get back into the Milky Way. I mean, that would be really, really dumb. It was very clear to me that they had other means of getting to us. The Citadel Relay is just their plan A, their preferred strategy and you have to admit, if it isn't screwed up, it is a good one. I also think ME1 implies that there must be a plan B already. Shepard's last words are "The reapers are coming and I will find a way to stop them". So clearly, Shepard thought - as I did - that they have another way in. At the time, we had no idea how long it would take them or what shape the plan B of theirs would take but it was pretty clear that there must be one.
In fact, while playing ME2 and before finishing it, I was convinced that the missing Terminus colonists are abducted to serve as some sort of slave labor force or fuel or whatever beyond the Omega 5 relay to build a new relay that can connect to dark space. The only thing that didn't make sense to me is why they'd only take humans. Well, when Baby Terminator showed up in the end, that question was answered. Ultimately though, ME2 and Arrival did the job in the end and did show that the reapers had a pretty decent backup plan, even if it was just "flying in", duh! But at least they still had the Alpha Relay scheme going. And I agree that it was rather weird that in ME3 then, they abandoned the Citadel there for a couple of months but hey, as I said, I can work with it, I understand why - in order to build a nice galaxy spanning narrative for the game - it was ultimately necessary to keep the relays open and why it was better to keep the iconic Citadel as hub for the player and IMO ME3 has far more drastic story issues elsewhere. So is it great? Hell no, but at least in this instance, I get why it is what it is and I can muster enough suspension of disbelief and employ enough reasoning (a bit convoluted, I grant you) to make it work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 23:36:41 GMT
The reapers were fine until the prothean scientists somehow were able to alter the signal preventing the reapers from getting back in the Milky Way via the Citadel. Why change something that's been working for a very long time? Bioware had to make the reapers stupid for this cycle to have any chance of destroying them. Why couldn't the reapers travel to the Milky Way after Sovereign wasn't able to get the Citadel relay opened however long ago? Still, locking yourself out of your own house to prevent someone inside that house from just walking out and finding you is a totally counter-intuitive thing to do. You lock your lab rats inside their cages, you don't effectively lock yourself out of being able to get into them. Bioware didn't have to make the reapers stupid, they needed instead to make them vulnerable in some way. As someone said, they gave the reapers big red clown shoes the moment Sovereign opened his mouth... BUT, that's the very parts of this franchise the fan base loves... so... shrug.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2019 0:05:17 GMT
That works out to, what, 80 or so capital ships? Depends on how many dozens are in that "dozens more." Even if we lowballed it, and said "only" 50 Sovereigns plus destroyer escorts and such stormed the Sol system, that's more than enough to lock down the entire freaking system and make sure no one escaped. Yep. I've said before, if 50 capital ships head to Earth, leaving a few to guard the relay, that the reapers would be able to harvest the galaxy without too much hassle. It's only where they spread themselves thin that it becomes a problem.
In ME2, TIM says the derelict reaper is about 37 millions years old. In that time, using 50,000, that comes to 740 capital ships. How many are seen in that scene after the suicide mission? I know I saw a couple different looking reapers. Likely a transport ship and processing ship, but didn't see any destroyers.
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