andydandymandy
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Post by andydandymandy on Mar 25, 2020 22:58:44 GMT
I thought Liara's shift in character was because she lost the family she gained in ME1 (the Normady getting attacked and blown up, Shepard dying, everyone else going their separate ways, etc) while not being able to simply return to the old life she had before she met Shepard.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 26, 2020 3:35:21 GMT
Sure that’s the reason for the change but the change was so extreme she was no longer the same character. Modifying her personality due to her experiences is one thing. Totally changing it so it’s unrecognizable is another. They went for the unrecognizable route.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 27, 2020 21:48:17 GMT
Sure that’s the reason for the change but the change was so extreme she was no longer the same character. Modifying her personality due to her experiences is one thing. Totally changing it so it’s unrecognizable is another. They went for the unrecognizable route. Even worse is when people try to justify it because... she was... an archaeologist. I'm like, wtf? Talk about unrelated professions.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 28, 2020 5:42:06 GMT
Sure that’s the reason for the change but the change was so extreme she was no longer the same character. Modifying her personality due to her experiences is one thing. Totally changing it so it’s unrecognizable is another. They went for the unrecognizable route. Even worse is when people try to justify it because... she was... an archaeologist. I'm like, wtf? Talk about unrelated professions. Guilty as charged. Some fields have methodologies - processes, procedures, heuristics, analytical algorithms, etc. that can be replicated and applied to other data sets with similar results. Archaeologists as we know and understand them take various bits and pieces left behind by ancient civilizations and try to puzzle them together to generate some theories and understanding of the civilization that left them - their tools and technologies, how they lived, what they ate, their art, their literature, their beliefs and values. It's a discipline that involves scientific methods as well as instinctive guesswork in searching for clues. I wouldn't even want to venture a guess as to how one would go about studying an "ancient" (dead) civilization that was far more advanced than my own - but that's what Liara has been doing for some 50 years - it may be altogether different from our understanding of archaeology. And any way you look at it, the job involves assembling, processing, analyzing lots of individual pieces of information, trying to identify patterns, trends, commonalities, and exceptions. Collating, organizing, and interpreting information to present in a form that can be useful to others. Does that sound at all like what an information broker might do?
Today's history is yesterday's news - often reinterpreted through different lenses. The difference between a current event and a historical one are the timestamps involved. That, and we know more about the results of historical events.
So I don't have a big issue with her ability to transition from archaeology to information brokerage.
She did undergo a significant personality change, and a lot of it happened while we were watching. She became an experienced combatant in ME1. Also saw her own mother succumb to mind control and Saren's/the reapers' plot. Saw Shepard go down with the SR-1, recovered the corpse, turned it over to a terrorist organization for reanimation, and was being hunted. Those kinds of things can change a person, or maybe bring out some parts that had been repressed.
Of course, she's not the only one who changed quite a bit during the trilogy. VS was very successful, got promoted big time, and became a Spectre. Tali went from young adult on pilgrimage -> pariah charged with treason -> member of Admiralty board. Garrus started as a failed C-Sec officer, then went vigilante and later had generals saluting him. Wrex was a dime-a-dozen merc who had given up on his people, then a forceful clan leader trying to exert influence on the other clans -> to the official species representative focused on creating a future for his species.
Liara isn't the only character who grew a lot.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 28, 2020 7:33:57 GMT
Sure that’s the reason for the change but the change was so extreme she was no longer the same character. Modifying her personality due to her experiences is one thing. Totally changing it so it’s unrecognizable is another. They went for the unrecognizable route. Tali was the biggest shift to me. ME1 Tali was basically a talking textbook with no personality.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 28, 2020 12:37:27 GMT
Sure that’s the reason for the change but the change was so extreme she was no longer the same character. Modifying her personality due to her experiences is one thing. Totally changing it so it’s unrecognizable is another. They went for the unrecognizable route. Tali was the biggest shift to me. ME1 Tali was basically a talking textbook with no personality. In Mass Effect 1 both Tali and Liara felt like no personality information depositories pretty close to the same as Avina, just not as monotone for me.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Mar 28, 2020 13:15:51 GMT
I would like to see either a proper continuation of ME:A (continuing the story so that we find out what happened to Ellen) OR a continuation of ANTHEM's story so that we find out about the Urgoth.
I am moderately excited for DA 4, I want to know what's happened to the Inquisition and to Solas, to the Eluvians and the Evanuris. I am very interested in the story that they teased about the Old World and the gods, and Solas' planned destruction of Thedas to bring his world back into existence.
But if there are elements from ANTHEM's gameplay that are going to be brought in to DA 4 ( like Co Op) I'd rather not see it done that way. It suits ANTHEM, but in DA's history...there is nothing about those games that I feel (personally) that would lend itself to 4 player Co-Op like ANTHEM. That is honestly one thing that I'm a little worried about. It's great for ANTHEM, I really don't think it would suit the world of Dragon Age.
But that is just my personal opinion.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 28, 2020 20:46:27 GMT
I would like to see either a proper continuation of ME:A (continuing the story so that we find out what happened to Ellen) OR a continuation of ANTHEM's story so that we find out about the Urgoth. I am moderately excited for DA 4, I want to know what's happened to the Inquisition and to Solas, to the Eluvians and the Evanuris. I am very interested in the story that they teased about the Old World and the gods, and Solas' planned destruction of Thedas to bring his world back into existence. But if there are elements from ANTHEM's gameplay that are going to be brought in to DA 4 ( like Co Op) I'd rather not see it done that way. It suits ANTHEM, but in DA's history...there is nothing about those games that I feel (personally) that would lend itself to 4 player Co-Op like ANTHEM. That is honestly one thing that I'm a little worried about. It's great for ANTHEM, I really don't think it would suit the world of Dragon Age. But that is just my personal opinion. If DA goes co-op, then I’m afraid it’s basically dead for me. Multiplayer’s infected the game enough. I don’t want *real* people tainting what’s supposed to be a singleplayer experience.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Mar 28, 2020 21:11:08 GMT
I would like to see either a proper continuation of ME:A (continuing the story so that we find out what happened to Ellen) OR a continuation of ANTHEM's story so that we find out about the Urgoth. I am moderately excited for DA 4, I want to know what's happened to the Inquisition and to Solas, to the Eluvians and the Evanuris. I am very interested in the story that they teased about the Old World and the gods, and Solas' planned destruction of Thedas to bring his world back into existence. But if there are elements from ANTHEM's gameplay that are going to be brought in to DA 4 ( like Co Op) I'd rather not see it done that way. It suits ANTHEM, but in DA's history...there is nothing about those games that I feel (personally) that would lend itself to 4 player Co-Op like ANTHEM. That is honestly one thing that I'm a little worried about. It's great for ANTHEM, I really don't think it would suit the world of Dragon Age. But that is just my personal opinion. If DA goes co-op, then I’m afraid it’s basically dead for me. Multiplayer’s infected the game enough. I don’t want *real* people tainting what’s supposed to be a singleplayer experience. Quite right. But that's the scuttlebutt from what I am aware of, though I may be wrong.
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Cyberstrike
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Mar 28, 2020 22:27:30 GMT
Tali was the biggest shift to me. ME1 Tali was basically a talking textbook with no personality. In Mass Effect 1 both Tali and Liara felt like no personality information depositories pretty close to the same as Avina, just not as monotone for me.
I think in general that is my problem with the story and the characters in ME1 it's like it's getting all of major exposition out of the way, which I have no problem with but it does leave characters like Liara and Tali feeling dull and boring after especially playing both ME2/3 the first game feels it's just world building but with no real characters or even characterization for most of them. IMHO only Garrus and Wrex come the closest to feeling like they're different people (and/or better/worse) people at the end.
The characters feel static to me in ME1 and Tali is the best example of this.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 28, 2020 22:47:01 GMT
I would like to see either a proper continuation of ME:A (continuing the story so that we find out what happened to Ellen) OR a continuation of ANTHEM's story so that we find out about the Urgoth. I am moderately excited for DA 4, I want to know what's happened to the Inquisition and to Solas, to the Eluvians and the Evanuris. I am very interested in the story that they teased about the Old World and the gods, and Solas' planned destruction of Thedas to bring his world back into existence. But if there are elements from ANTHEM's gameplay that are going to be brought in to DA 4 ( like Co Op) I'd rather not see it done that way. It suits ANTHEM, but in DA's history...there is nothing about those games that I feel (personally) that would lend itself to 4 player Co-Op like ANTHEM. That is honestly one thing that I'm a little worried about. It's great for ANTHEM, I really don't think it would suit the world of Dragon Age. But that is just my personal opinion. If DA goes co-op, then I’m afraid it’s basically dead for me. Multiplayer’s infected the game enough. I don’t want *real* people tainting what’s supposed to be a singleplayer experience. The lion's share of my investment in BioWare games is due to the engagement with followers (and other crew members). Worlds and stories are interesting up to a point, but characters are what draw me in, especially when my PC can build ongoing relationships with them. No followers, no interest from me. I'll go play The Sims or something moddable.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 29, 2020 1:47:13 GMT
Don’t think ME or DA will lose its roots despite what clickbait you tubers say.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 30, 2020 9:39:00 GMT
If DA goes co-op, then I’m afraid it’s basically dead for me. Multiplayer’s infected the game enough. I don’t want *real* people tainting what’s supposed to be a singleplayer experience. The lion's share of my investment in BioWare games is due to the engagement with followers (and other crew members). Worlds and stories are interesting up to a point, but characters are what draw me in, especially when my PC can build ongoing relationships with them. No followers, no interest from me. I'll go play The Sims or something moddable. This is especially true when the main story is riddled with flaws, as is the case with Mass Effect. On its own, the overarching narrative has lots of issues that would not hold up nearly as well if not for the personal stories of the characters and their interactivity with my character. Heck, Fallout 4’s main story is junk, but I don’t care because I enjoy the followers quite a bit.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 30, 2020 13:16:36 GMT
The lion's share of my investment in BioWare games is due to the engagement with followers (and other crew members). Worlds and stories are interesting up to a point, but characters are what draw me in, especially when my PC can build ongoing relationships with them. No followers, no interest from me. I'll go play The Sims or something moddable. This is especially true when the main story is riddled with flaws, as is the case with Mass Effect. On its own, the overarching narrative has lots of issues that would not hold up nearly as well if not for the personal stories of the characters and their interactivity with my character. Heck, Fallout 4’s main story is junk, but I don’t care because I enjoy the followers quite a bit. Aye, FO4's followers are a huge leap forward over Bethesda's usual fare. That, and building settlements adds a whole new dimension to what you can achieve in that game. Their support for modding doesn't hurt, either (the constant nuisance updates required by Creator's Club notwithstanding). But Bethesda games are never really about the world or story they wrote, at least not for me. The bulk of the entertainment value has more to do with being able to hand-craft your characters' narrative in that world.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 30, 2020 15:08:29 GMT
She became an experienced combatant in ME1. I don't agree. The trilogy shows she's not squadmate material. Are those the excuses you use to explain why she took Shepard's armor to put on display like it's a prize/trophy? Or made no attempt to tell anyone that Shepard's corpse was in the hands of Cerberus? She has mental problems. What about if Shepard treated her like crap? Shepard threatens to throw her back in the volcano. Even if I liked the character or romanced the character, I would want nothing more to do with her after the crap that is seen in the broker dlc. She has head problems. It's too bad Shepard can't ask those questions. In the broker dlc, there are 3 paragon interrupts. Here's what I would have for renegade interrupts renegade interrupt #1 Shepard: Before anything else happens, how about answering a couple of questions? Did you tell anyone or at least make any effort to tell anyone Cerberus had my body? Liara: I...I....don't know.........
renegade interrupt #2 Shepard: Why do you have my armor in your apartment on display like its some kind of prize? Liara: That's.....I.......I....
renegade interrupt #3 Shepard: If you can't answer my questions, I'm leaving. Liara: Shepard....I...can't... Shepard: That's what I thought. You're suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome. While you go see a doctor about that, I will be heading back to my ship. One last thing. I don't ever want to see you again. Understand? In regards of her becoming an information broker. It doesn't make sense. Throughout ME1, she says she's study the protheans for however long many times in the game. Even when on Ilos, she ignores the mission is about stopping Saren, by wanting to stay to study the archives. The only success they had is helping Shepard stop Saren. The promotion was a very big leap especially for Williams. Both become a spectre. Why? It served no purpose in ME3. What's going to happen in ME4? Will they continue to follow in Shepard's shadow doing whatever or will the council have some use for them to do spectre stuff? Her being an Admiral. I laughed at that. She leads two teams in ME2 that nearly have everyone killed. But that is par for the course in her case. Look at what happens when Shepard sides with the geth? Nothing. The quarian stands there like the dumba** she is by not doing anything while the geth uploads the code. Is that the role of an Admiral? I will give her high marks for the reverse swan dive. Maybe next time she could join the Olympic diving team. To get her loyalty Shepard has to not mention how much of a **** up her father was. Failed? Garrus agrees since he mentions that in ME3. The first time seeing him, he tells his boss to stall the council without having any evidence. He should know better. He doesn't like rules and paperwork. Did he not know that when he first joined? Then he heads to Omega to shoot bad guys. After two years, he was still shooting the bad guys with no end in sight. Even if his team wasn't killed, the mercs eventually would have defeated Garrus and his team. Then he cries like a baby in front of his father. His father tired of his kid's whining, stuff's a pacifier in his mouth and takes him to see the primarch. The primarch makes him an advisor. Why? Garrus knows nothing. Hey Garrus, how do we defeat them? I don't know. What are the reapers weak spots? I don't know. How many are there? I don't know. And so on. Ah yes, Wrex. He's one of the reason's why I sabotage the genophage. On Virmire he decides his shotgun will do the talking believing he will get what he wants. He could end up taking a dirt nap. So much for creating a future for his species. Why couldn't he just flip the bird at Shepard, then go get the cure himself? Because his shotgun wouldn't let him. The same thing happens in ME3, if the genophage is sabotaged. Instead of holding onto the audio file to give to the council as evidence that his species held their end of the bargain to use against Shepard, if they survived the reaper war, he ends of dooming them never to have any chance at having the genophage cured at all. Again his shotgun wouldn't let him do that. So much for creating a future for his species. And yes, he is dumber than his brother.
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Post by Serza on Mar 31, 2020 9:02:52 GMT
The one thing I think you miss about Liara is that she was doing archaelogy for decades. A quiet, relatively risk-free job with only an occasional encounter. Then, within the space of a few months, she met Shepard, lost her mother, became a veteran with more combat experience than most Marines, found out the Normandy was blown up which meant losing a few more friends, she got into information brokering, which we're led to believe is one of the most ruthless businesses in the galaxy, part of which involved the Collectors as well. She got Shepard's body back and gave it to what she knew was a human supremacist organization that she likely knew does projects with extremely questionable ethics.
That shit would fold most people flat. It's something that there is ANY of Liara left by ME3.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 1, 2020 9:09:01 GMT
The only success they had is helping Shepard stop Saren. The promotion was a very big leap especially for Williams. Both become a spectre. Why? It served no purpose in ME3. What's going to happen in ME4? Will they continue to follow in Shepard's shadow doing whatever or will the council have some use for them to do spectre stuff? Regarding the VS, I always took the Spectre status push as a ploy orchestrated by Udina, since he was likely complicit in the plot to overthrow the Council for some time at that point. Shepard’s usefulness to him was likely nil to nonexistent. Not sure what he’d even need a Spectre for at that point, but it was clear he wanted someone who would be more amenable to whatever endgame he was aiming for, at least for a bit longer.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 1, 2020 12:39:51 GMT
Sure that’s the reason for the change but the change was so extreme she was no longer the same character. Modifying her personality due to her experiences is one thing. Totally changing it so it’s unrecognizable is another. They went for the unrecognizable route. Even worse is when people try to justify it because... she was... an archaeologist. I'm like, wtf? Talk about unrelated professions. I always thought that excuse for her powers in ME1 (she had to fight off pirates and raiders) was silly. She has incredibly strong powers and can use them in combat with ALOT of skill yet she was never combat trained. Personally I think she was taught to fight somehow when she was young. Because she was better then kaiden who WAS trained specifically for combat. There is a big difference in how you use a skill for combat. A target shooter who can shoot targets at a distance or shoot multiple targets at close range very quickly might miss every shot during combat and that's with a weapon that is designed for war.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 1, 2020 19:23:11 GMT
Even worse is when people try to justify it because... she was... an archaeologist. I'm like, wtf? Talk about unrelated professions. I always thought that excuse for her powers in ME1 (she had to fight off pirates and raiders) was silly. She has incredibly strong powers and can use them in combat with ALOT of skill yet she was never combat trained. Personally I think she was taught to fight somehow when she was young. Because she was better then kaiden who WAS trained specifically for combat. There is a big difference in how you use a skill for combat. A target shooter who can shoot targets at a distance or shoot multiple targets at close range very quickly might miss every shot during combat and that's with a weapon that is designed for war. I do remember her asying that al Asari have basic biotic training whilst in school. But yeah she is very efficiemnt with her powers I suspect her mother ma yhave taught her a fwe tricks as well given she was supposedl yquiet wel known for her biotic prowess herself.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 1, 2020 20:15:50 GMT
In Mass Effect 1 both Tali and Liara felt like no personality information depositories pretty close to the same as Avina, just not as monotone for me.
I think in general that is my problem with the story and the characters in ME1 it's like it's getting all of major exposition out of the way, which I have no problem with but it does leave characters like Liara and Tali feeling dull and boring after especially playing both ME2/3 the first game feels it's just world building but with no real characters or even characterization for most of them. IMHO only Garrus and Wrex come the closest to feeling like they're different people (and/or better/worse) people at the end.
The characters feel static to me in ME1 and Tali is the best example of this.
Also they made her voice sound weird. But wrex and garrus are the ones who show the most change and have the most "flavor" so to speak. Ashley and kaiden do as well but they are human so they don't have to give out alien history.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 1, 2020 20:18:58 GMT
Don’t think ME or DA will lose its roots despite what clickbait you tubers say. Yeah I don't see them doing it either. It isn't like call of duty it is more story oriented then combat oriented.
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Post by cloud9 on May 12, 2020 0:35:37 GMT
"This game is garbage and I want everyone who worked on it to be fired" - hater "This game is bad because of reasons x, y, z" - skeptic However, it's very convenient to use the term "hater" for skeptics, because it that way one seemingly doesn't have to counter the reasons they stated. Fanboys gotta hate skeptics I guess. It would seem so.
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Post by cloud9 on May 12, 2020 0:41:44 GMT
I gotta say, though, no matter how good the plot, if I don't like the characters involved, I'm just not going to bother. If ME2 did one thing right, is get me invested in the characters (even Jacob) to such an extent that I came out of nearly every conversation with them, absolutely satisfied and curious to know more about these very unique people that have trusted me with their lives. It was an incredible step up in characterization compared to ME1 and while I do very much love ME1, it's ME2 that really, really made me love Mass Effect as a franchise, because of the characters. DA:I, in comparison, had figuratively no one that I liked. I'd make an exception for Blackwall, but that's it. It all made the grind and slog that much less bearable. In the end, it just wasn't worth it for me. Bah! Sorry but this "counter argument" is something that comes up every now and so often and frankly, I hate it. When I say, I don't like "character over everything", that does NOT mean "I don't care about characters". Obviously characters are very important, they are the life of a story. Without decent characters, there can be no story. However, characters and plot need to support each other IMO. A good plot without well written characters is no fun. For me, a personal example of this is the movie Elysium. It's an intreaging story about suppression, brings in questions about global warming and man made pollution but also scientific progress, richvs. poor, etc. But all the characters in this movei are one kind of a-hole or another, even the "heros". SO I don't really care about any of them.
But just focusing on the characters and their personalities can also lead to massive problems in your story and frankly, ME2 is the perfect example. It focused so much on the characters, on "your dirty dozen" that it forgot its own plot for 90% of the game (and the rest of it wasn't enough to make a dent anymore). Now, the characters are fantastic. The are probably the best written in the ME universe (most of them anyway) and I love the game for it. However, it doesn't excuse the fact that ME2 failed not only itself with it's plot but - and I made this argument very often - is the main culprit in 90% of the problems that people blame ME3 for. ME3 did it's best to stitch the trilogy back together after ME2's massive failure of progressing it and IMO, the authors did a marvelous job in ME3 to catch as many hanging plot threads as they possibly could. But ME2, under Mac's direction, is the perfect example why characters alone don't cut it.
Yes, ME1 was hit and miss with the characters (though I will submit that for it's time, for what was the norm back then in video games and for what could be done with facial animations and digital acting), most of the characters were at the very least decent (with the possible exception of Tali who really was a walking encyclopedia on the quarians ). Yes they weren't quite as flashed out as those in ME2 but they also got far less screen time for their personalities because there was a plot to consider and an entire universe to introduce. The balance was IMO far far better. Here the characters interacted with the plot, they were intertwined. Ash lost her unit to the Geth on Eden Prime, Garrus took his investigation into Saren (and the fact the he was turian) somewhat personally, Wrex got a real moment there on Virmire, Liara couldn't be more intermingled with the plot through her connection to Benezia (terribly executed but good concept) and her prothean expertise. Here, characters and plot supported each other.
In ME2, why exactly do I need Thane? Or Samara? Or Zaeed? Again, they are fantastic characters but they were not interacting with the plot at all. Some of them were (like Mordin or going after Okeer because he knew about the collectors - and we didn't even get him but Grunt, another character unrelated to the plot in the end ).
It's not like it's impossible to do both at the same time, even the Mass Effect team did it themselves before ever starting on ME. Look at KotOR. It's a huge roster and everyone in there has a very deep connection to either the overall plot or at the very least to very important subplots. It's the fact that Mac even separates plot and characters in this way (he says this outright in several interviews) that really gets me. IMO this is a writing 101 mistake and that is why I don't want to see him in charge of a writing team anymore. IMO he'd be better suited to be somewhere within the team, just writing his character but not to oversee and manage the entire team. That job needs someone who works with a more wholistic picture and vision of what the entire story should be.
Thank you!
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Highwayman667
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 12, 2020 15:06:33 GMT
Don’t think ME or DA will lose its roots despite what clickbait you tubers say. Specially because of the brilliant and prodigious minds who have determined that "Bioware's failures" has been due to "SJW content". Honestly, Bioware fans (me included) need to see videogames in a much more functional manner.
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SirSourpuss
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 30, 2020 15:04:56 GMT
I want to know what's happened to the Inquisition and to Solas, to the Eluvians and the Evanuris What is the most underwhelming scenario you can think of? That's what's going to happen. Or, I'm going to make a guess here -Inquisition Disbanded regardless of what you chose, at some time later -Solas You kill him And his soul goes to Kieran -Eluvians Destroyed -Evanuris Dead
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