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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2020 11:55:32 GMT
The final Halla; is the implication here that Elves evolved from Dwarves? Or is it some form of prophecy about the Halla guiding the Dalish and their families during hard times and that is why they are all slumped and unhappy? That and almost vaguely simian looking. I don't want to say too much here because of spoilers for Tevinter Nights but one story in it, the Horror of Hormack would seem to relate to these images. We also know from ancient writings in the Temple of Mythal and Trespasser that Mythal certainly had much to do with the dwarves. The writings seem to imply that she freed them but that was only from an elven perspective. It is possible that she freed them from one form of bondage only to substitute another. Also there were hints in the Descent that those responsible for the memories in the past may have omitted information or erased it. Or may be, like the modern elves, the dwarves just seem to have suffered from some sort of memory loss about their past. May be that was a side-effect of raising the Veil that left all the races a bit fuzzy about anything that pre-dated it unless it was written down or recorded in murals. The elves of the city in Arlathan Forest seem not to have had any idea of just how great the passage of time was from the point at which they probably went into Uthenera following the elven civil war, until the arrival of the Imperium in their Forest, which helped to muddle their memories still further. Perhaps recording history in the memories only began for the dwarves after the Veil because they realised how little they could recall from what happened before. So to prevent that happening again they made the Shaperate who were responsible for recording all their history. Thus, it wasn't that the Shaperate deliberately left out their ancient relationship with the elves but they genuinely did not remember it. However, with Mythal's influence removed they did start to vaguely remember their connection with the Titans, the Stone in their later lore. This wasn't like the direct connection that Valta received in the Descent but at a more subconscious level, particularly, I imagine, when they were in the presence of lyrium.
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Post by colfoley on May 15, 2020 8:13:15 GMT
So while running around with Bull doing some of the Tombs of Fairiel he revealed that there are Dwarven ruins as far north as Par Vollen. Not sure what to make of that but it SOUNDS significant.
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Post by midnight tea on May 15, 2020 16:20:41 GMT
So while running around with Bull doing some of the Tombs of Fairiel he revealed that there are Dwarven ruins as far north as Par Vollen. Not sure what to make of that but it SOUNDS significant. Well, we also know that dwarves live outside of known Thedas.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 15, 2020 16:45:37 GMT
So while running around with Bull doing some of the Tombs of Fairiel he revealed that there are Dwarven ruins as far north as Par Vollen. Not sure what to make of that but it SOUNDS significant. Do you recall if he mentioned if they were above or below the surface? I have long wondered how far the Deep Roads extended northwards. The fact that the Qunari seemed unaware of the darkspawn before the 5th Blight suggests that the Deep Roads didn't reach as far as Par Vollen, but if there are dwarven ruins there then it would seem they do reach that far. Or were the dwarves taken there by the elves? Well, we also know that dwarves live outside of known Thedas. Yes, and these are seafaring dwarves, so perhaps the dwarves on Par Vollen were related to these dwarves rather than the Deep Roads ones. May be the dwarves started on the surface and then retreated underground because of the threat from dragons. Wasn't there a codex that suggested as much connected with the Tombs of Fairiel?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 15, 2020 20:55:13 GMT
So while running around with Bull doing some of the Tombs of Fairiel he revealed that there are Dwarven ruins as far north as Par Vollen. Not sure what to make of that but it SOUNDS significant. Do you recall if he mentioned if they were above or below the surface? I have long wondered how far the Deep Roads extended northwards. The fact that the Qunari seemed unaware of the darkspawn before the 5th Blight suggests that the Deep Roads didn't reach as far as Par Vollen, but if there are dwarven ruins there then it would seem they do reach that far. Or were the dwarves taken there by the elves? Well, we also know that dwarves live outside of known Thedas. Yes, and these are seafaring dwarves, so perhaps the dwarves on Par Vollen were related to these dwarves rather than the Deep Roads ones. May be the dwarves started on the surface and then retreated underground because of the threat from dragons. Wasn't there a codex that suggested as much connected with the Tombs of Fairiel? The tunnels that connect the Par Vollen and Thedas Deep Roads could also have been flooded by the ocean long ago, seperating them. That also explains why ruins are there but no Darkspawn.
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Post by yogsothoth on May 15, 2020 22:26:11 GMT
So while running around with Bull doing some of the Tombs of Fairiel he revealed that there are Dwarven ruins as far north as Par Vollen. Not sure what to make of that but it SOUNDS significant. Do you recall if he mentioned if they were above or below the surface? I have long wondered how far the Deep Roads extended northwards. The fact that the Qunari seemed unaware of the darkspawn before the 5th Blight suggests that the Deep Roads didn't reach as far as Par Vollen, but if there are dwarven ruins there then it would seem they do reach that far. Or were the dwarves taken there by the elves? He does not say one way or the other, only "You think we have don't dwarven ruins up in Par Vollen?"
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Post by gervaise21 on May 16, 2020 9:04:11 GMT
He does not say one way or the other, only "You think we have don't dwarven ruins up in Par Vollen?" Another interesting thing is that whilst Dalish legends make no mention of the dwarves, they do say that the humans first arrived from Par Vollen. Human lore also says that the Neromenians were originally a sea faring people. So we have both humans and Qunari originating from somewhere else and then coming by sea to Thedas and over to the west we have a sea-faring nation of traders called the Voshai, whose ships were always captained by dwarves, suggesting that dwarves held great status in their society at least as seafarers. Also interesting is the fact that there were never any elves on the Voshai ships. It does make me wonder if dwarves were originally more common on the surface and they were driven underground by the presence of dragons, the actions of the elves, or both. There was also the rhyme we could find in the Deep Roads, that the elf convert to the Qunari vaguely remembered from the days with their clan, which roughly translated as: I am empty, filled with nothing(?), Mythal gives you dreams. It fills you, within you(?), Making our leaders proud. My little stones, Never yours the sun. Forever, forever. The elf suggested that the "little Stones" could be the dwarves. In which case, if Mythal gave them dreams, that suggested by cutting their ties with the Titan she may have connected them with the Fade. May be Mythal has to be alive for the spell the work on them or may be it was just a case of the Veil severing that connection and then close proximity to lyrium only increased the barrier. It would explain, though, how Solas can kill dwarves because they are only cut off from the Fade in a similar way to Tranquil and we know that spirits can contact the latter from the Fade, it is just they are harder to find. Still if you know who you are looking for, and may be have some sort of signature to home in on, like the red lyrium the dwarves had been in contact with, then it is possible to touch their minds. Also, note the last two lines: "Never yours the Sun, for ever, for ever." May be it should have translated as "Never again yours the Sun." This would suggest the dwarves were originally a surface race but were forced underground after the Titan was defeated. Alternatively, we can return to the explanation that for some reason the Sun equates to the Titan, so the legend about Elgar'nan battling the Sun was about his battle with the Titan, the blood spilled by the latter was lyrium and it was Elgar'nan who forced the Titan (back?) into the ground, where Mythal soothed it to sleep. I'm pretty sure the ancient battle between the First of the People and the Titans was because the Evanuris were spirits, people of the sky/Fade and so had no business being on the surface of the earth, which was the domain of the Titans and their people, the dwarves. When the elves started building creations that straddled both realms, the magic used enraged the Titans, who retaliated with earthquakes, destroying anything on the surface. The Elvhen called on their leaders to do something about it. "Give us victory over the earth which shakes our cities" and more pertinently "Bring winged death against those who throw down our work." Clearly asking for them to act as dragons. Which is why dwarves have a racial memory of fearing dragons and being out in the open. They fled underground responding to the call of the chained Titan or may be that was the intention of the Evanuris all along. Then they were put to work mining the lyrium, because the elves had realised that only dwarves could do so in reasonable safety owing to their relationship with the Titans. They were likely also the huge slave workforce recounted as creating a vast statue to honour Elgar'nan. I imagine that the Deep Roads were originally the idea of the Evanuris, not the dwarves, but after the Veil and the elves withdrew, the dwarves set about utilising them to create their own civilisation. This also ties in with another strange story, discovered in Witch Hunt, about how some of the elves of Arlathan fled to Cad'Halash. I always thought this strange how elves in the north of Thedas fled to the thaig in the south, presumably by eluvian although it could have been on foot. How did they know about the thaig? Why would they think it a good place to seek refuge? Because clearly some of them remembered the ancient links with the dwarves. I also wonder if Kal-Sharok attacking and wiping out both the refugees and the dwarves that sheltered them was less about not wanting to offend Tevinter and more about remembering why they should fear a resurgence of the elves. Kal-Sharok pre-dates Orzammar as the seat of dwarven power, the latter having only been established post-Veil. Orzammar was also originally predominately a mining caste thaig, whilst Kal-Sharok was home to the ruling class and presumably the original Memories. Kal-Sharok is the only thaig other than Orzammar that survived the Blights and has been very reclusive not simply with the dwarves of Orzammar but regarding the outside world. When they have been seen, though, they are visibly different to Orzammar dwarves. I think they may have access to some ancient magic that aided their survival. If they are not involved in the fight against Solas, I shall be very disappointed.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 16, 2020 17:32:35 GMT
Further thoughts on this. The inscriptions in the Tomb of Fariel and associated ruins are said to be in the Old Tongue of the dwarves. Many modern dwarven terms have a root in the language they spoke before they made contact with humans or elves. So was this the language used in the Hissing Wastes? The dwarf exploring the ruins also says this in his journal:
"The statues here were chiselled thousands of years ago, I'm sure of it. Either these people loved dwarven architecture, or the "commonly known fact" that dwarves never built cities on the surface is wrong." This was evidently written before he found out that the ruins were dwarven.
Of Paragon Fariel:"Legend says he died in the Deep Roads during a war between two thaigs who used his runework to build fantastic weapons of destruction. If he escaped up here, that means the records are wrong, or someone a thousand years ago tried to pretty-up the truth about his leaving. The most talented Shaper of Runes in dwarven history, escaping with his entire house to the surface."
Did Paragon Fariel take the secret of the runes with him to his grave? It is stated in his tomb that he regretted what he had created and the other dwarves believed it resulted in the destruction of two thaigs. How far in the past was this? Pre or post Veil?
Then he says: "I was tracing heraldry etched on a wall when I noticed pictures of weapons with winged lizards worked into the decoration. I spent the rest of the day translating the inscriptions. This verse was apparently passed down through Fairel's house, through his father to his father's father and so on for hundred of generations:
"From the Stone, have no fear of anything, but the stone-less sky betrays with wings of flame. If the surface must be breached, if there is no other way, bring weapons against the urtok, and heed their screams." "Urtok" means "dragon." Why was it part of an ancient crest? Why were these dwarves so worried about a monster they'd never see that they worked it into their weapons?"
I wonder if the ancient crest of House Fariel did recall a time before the Veil and may be the battle between those who belonged to the earth and the sky people in the form of dragons? Could it be that the designs for the runes were developed to fight the dragons and were also handed down through his family and then Fariel re-discovered the means of working them onto weapons? The dragon crest and the words of warning about dragons suggest that in the ancient past his house were around when the dragons ruled the skies and Yavana said that was before the Veil.
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Post by yogsothoth on May 17, 2020 2:17:18 GMT
It does make me wonder if dwarves were originally more common on the surface and they were driven underground by the presence of dragons, the actions of the elves, or both. In a Trespasser codex entry, one of the Elven Qunari says "Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire," suggesting that it was the Evanuris, not regular dragons, that drove/kept the dwarves underground. As seen in the Descent, it seems that merely by being awake, the Titans cause earthquakes. I do not think that they purposefully tried to destroy the Elves'/Spirits' creations. If it was on purpose, I doubt it would be because they were building on the surface. If my idea of the Evanuris killing dragons is correct, and Yavana's statement of the blood of dragons being the blood of the world hasn't been thrown out, that seems a more likely reason for the Titans to fight with the Elves. I agree, I think it was Mythal's idea. She could improve the Dwarves' lives after separating them from the Titans, and the rest of the Evanuris would have a workforce to mine Lyrium. I have stated this before, but I believe the reason that the Deep Roads are so large and wide was so dragons could pass through them. That is why the Old Gods are buried in them. Mythal is interested in preserving/saving the Old Gods. I think they were the leaders of the dragons, the Great Dragons, and Elgar'nan overthrew them in order to become a leader, and took their blood form to designate godhood. Mythal hid the last of them away in the Deep Roads. We also know that there was one Great Dragon that Flemeth/Mythal left to Yavana in the Tellari Swamps waiting for a descendant of King Maric to come to her in order to revive the dragons that are hibernating there. There is also the codex entry on Draconis which speculates on an eighth Old God that was stricken from historical records. It would then make sense for this hidden Great Dragon to be this hidden Old God. On this, Eleni Zenovia says "[The elves'] sorrow awoke the Stone, and her children sheltered them.” This would suggest that the Stone directed the Dwarves to shelter the Elves. Agreed, though be prepared to be disappointed.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 17, 2020 9:34:00 GMT
In a Trespasser codex entry, one of the Elven Qunari says "Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire," suggesting that it was the Evanuris, not regular dragons, that drove/kept the dwarves underground. If, as we both seem to agree, the Evanuris enslaved the dwarves to act as their lyrium mining workforce underground, then clearly any dwarves on the surface would be there without authorisation and thus Evanuris in their dragon forms would force them back underground. The fact that the Keeper specifically said it was a fear of the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire makes me feel this does tie in with the war between the Elgar'nan/Mythal and the Titans. Elgar'nan is known as the First born of the Sun, so as the Dalish equate him with the Sun, it doesn't seem much of a stretch to see how the dwarves would as well. Elgar'nan is also associated with light: "Sylaise whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light". So he is very much associated with the surface and daylight. May be the original division of power between Elgar'nan and Mythal on Thedas, was he was predominantly out in the open on the surface/day, whilst she was under the surface in the Deep Roads/night.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 20, 2020 18:22:24 GMT
There is a passage in Masked Empire that always had me questioning its accuracy. Imshael is talking to Michel about the eluvians and he says:
"Regardless, the eluvians have been sleeping ever since your lads took Halamshiral. Our friend the Keeper is trying to get me to awaken them."
Now I've always wondered about this. I thought Morrigan said that the eluvians had been shut down at the time of the elven civil war. Didn't she get that from her book after drinking from the Well of Sorrows? It made sense that Solas or his followers would have shut down the network to make it harder for their enemies go get around. Still, from Morrigan, we know that it is also possible to wake them up again with the right key. She managed this and so did the Qunari. Even if you argue the Qunari only did so after Briala awakened the network, Morrigan did this before.
This being the case, could the eluvians have been active during the war between Orlais and the Dales? It would certainly explain how the elves managed to transport their army up to Val Royeaux without having to fight their way through the Heartlands and thus take the capital by surprise. Yet if the Dalish knew about and had control of the eluvian network, what happened subsequently that they seemed to forget all about it? Why hadn't the clan in Witch Hunt used their book on eluvians to find them again?
Of course, the other explanation is that PW simply made a mistake in using Halamshiral but that seems unlikely since the rest of the lore he recounts about Arlathan and Elvhenan is correct, so were the Dalish using the eluvians or was this a case of some stray follower of Fen'Harel in the time of the Dales using them to get around?
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Post by Garo on May 30, 2020 16:13:44 GMT
Do you think Morrigan will get Mythal's power and she will oppose Solas? From what I gathered Flemeth did something to one of the Eluvians, so maybe she preserved some part of her in there. Flemeth ultimately wanted to pass Mythal's powers to Morrigan.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 30, 2020 17:34:16 GMT
Do you think Morrigan will get Mythal's power and she will oppose Solas? Obviously a lot will depend on the current writers. Flemeth, Morrigan and the other daughters seem very much to have been DG's baby, he did after all use Yavana in his comic series, but that gave great significance to the great dragons as the "blood of the world", when that position now seems occupied by the titans and lyrium. Still, in theory, it would be possible for Flemeth to have made an insurance to ensure her survival should Mythal decide to jump ship, as she ultimately did. Alternatively, Flemeth did seem to hint in DA2 that it was possible to exist in two places at once, provided some part of the original was in both locations. After all, not every Warden killed Flemeth, so what happened to her other body in Ferelden when she materialised on Sundermount? Was it Mythal's wish that Morrigan be the inheritor or Flemeth's? Would Morrigan want to stop the Veil being dropped provided she and those dear to her were safe in the Crossroads? If she drank from the Well of Sorrows would she be able to oppose Solas if that was not the will of Mythal?
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Post by annia on Jul 29, 2020 19:47:30 GMT
Titans were shaking Elvhen cities - based on her very nature, maybe Mythal was the only god that found a peaceful solution rather than striking one down. Maybe Mythal calmed the Titan’s heart and they worked in peaceful unison, giving all the land - Deep Roads and above - to both Dwarves and Elves. Mythal would then have something unique that the other Evanuris did not, and even more noteworthy, she would actively be working with the enemy of her lover, Elgarnan, through a special bond. I think Arlathan plays a significant role in this - it could very well be the Titan’s heart itself - but I don’t have much to speculate beyond that. I find this unlikely because it was stated in a wall text in Trespasser that Mythal killed a Titan. We don't actually have any proof that any of the others ever killed a Titan, but we know the she did.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jul 29, 2020 20:16:19 GMT
I find this unlikely because it was stated in a wall text in Trespasser that Mythal killed a Titan. We don't actually have any proof that any of the others ever killed a Titan, but we know the she did. The codex doesn't explicitly say that the Titans were killed, just that they were "struck down." Solas uses the same language when talking about "striking down" the Evanuris, but they're still alive, trapped somewhere. If Mythal actually killed the Titans, it sure is odd that one of them is alive and called out to Valta. My assumption is that the Titans were simply put to sleep and "forgot" how to wake up: Cole in Trespasser: "They made bodies from the earth and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they made it forget." Interestingly enough, the mural itself seemingly shows Solas killing the Titan, and not Mythal. My assumption is that his reasons for doing so are similar to his reasons behind the creation of the veil, and both are examples of Solas Pride and probably weren't the best of ideas.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 29, 2020 20:57:19 GMT
My assumption is that the Titans were simply put to sleep and "forgot" how to wake up: I think you are probably right. I'm now inclined to think that the being that seems to be destroyed in the mural in Trespasser is a Guardian such as we are confronted by in the Wellspring. You can see similarities allowing for the artistic traditions of the elves. This being the case, Mythal/Solas defeated the Guardian(s) of the titan and then put it to sleep, allowing them to farm it for lyrium. The Veil would have sent the titan(s) into an even deeper slumber since it would appear to be the magic of the opening to the Fade that revived the one under Ferelden, which was disturbed at not being able to sense its "children" near at hand, indicating the Sha'Brytol must have been cut off from it even though they thought they were protecting it. Once it made contact with Valta then it calmed down again. May be it was Mythal "giving them dreams" (connecting them to the Fade) which cut the dwarves off from the titan that made it fight back originally or may be it was simply the magic used by the elves in making their marvellous constructs, which were then destroyed by the earthquakes caused by the disturbed "Earth".
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Post by Gludipow on Jul 29, 2020 23:02:45 GMT
So I am really sorry if this hijacks your post/discussion, but this is something I have been wanting to talk about for a long time. I posted it on Tumblr, but never got the discussion I had hoped to initiate with it. I did get an interesting reaction to it from a former Bioware dev, but I will post that later. Anyway, what I wanted to talk about was a theory that I guess is popular in some circles but has many different variations. I haven't heard this one anywhere though, so either it isn't very popular or no one has considered it yet. The latter seeming less plausible given how long this game has been out. Anyway, to sum it up, it's basically this. There is more detail to this theory of mine, of course. But that is basically the TL;DR. Anyway, the first thing I wanted us to look at were these familiar snippets of dialogue we see in Dragon Age Inquisition. It is a series of dialogue that transpires with or without Kieran present, so it is relevant either way. It just seems to have more passion behind it in the cut scenes with Kieran, personally. Now, the biggest question that came to mind for me is how could Flemythal take revenge if she doesn't have a stake in the Veil coming down? It would be hard to seek vengeance when your target for said vengeance lingers somewhere within the vast and endless Fade. Flemythal is powerful, but I doubt she is that powerful. With that, what if when the spirit of Mythal went to Flemeth, many centuries had gone by. What if the Veil had not been apart of her original plan for revenge? What if Flemeth was the one to persuade those Tevinter magisters to crack open the Golden City? What if they were apart of her plot? Such as a trial running reconnaissance in order to seek out the Evanuris unknowingly. There are many theories suggesting the Evanuris are trapped in the Black City. So I don't think the idea is too far out of left field. But why would Flemeth be that hellbent on revenge? That is another part of my theory. Does this not sound familiar? Almost like we heard something similar somewhere before? That is because we did. In DAII shortly after meeting Anders. He talks to you about Justice, the spirit living within him. Anders experienced the same thing with the spirit of Justice we meet in Awakening. Anders was a very different person prior to their joining, almost like a personality 180. It could be his personality was just retconned, but I'm not so sure. But the other thing I would like to point out is, with Inquisition and again with Tevinter Nights, we have been given myriad examples of spirits who mistake themselves as being someone deceased. Be it the Divine from the Fade, the spirit on Lady's Rest, Cole, or the Down Among the Dead chapter in Tevinter Nights. Mythal herself was an icon of justice to her people. A protector and voice of reason. In the midst of her betrayal, if she held a strong desire for justice to be done to her murderers, would a Justice spirit not drawn in with such a fierce desire? And if there is one thing we have examples if to pair this with, it is that in a few of these cases, the spirit retains some memories and/or knowledge from the deceased. So, this spirit of Justice mistaking itself for Mythal goes to Flemeth in a pursuit to fulfill Mythal's will for Justice. Flemeth's desire for Justice from her own betrayal lures it in. But her anger perverts the spirit, and turns it into a spirit of Vengeance. All this in mind, I am sure many remember how Anders lied and manipulated Hawke into doing his dirty work so he could blow up the Chantry in Kirkwall, no? Something that Anders opposed in Awakening. Is it farfetched, then, to think Flemythal might do the same to Solas? A man who wears his past mistakes around his neck like an anchor, dwelling in them so deeply as he holds a strong desire to protect what remains of his people. To further emphasize this, I want to bring up this scene we were treated to after we finished the main story if Inquisition. In this scene we see Flemeth putting a piece of herself through the Eluvian. Some theorize this is a shred of her power being sent to Morrigan, which is plausible. But I don't understand what purpose it would serve. Nonetheless, we are led to believe Mythal makes quite a few pieces of herself. The reasoning for this is, regardless if you slay her in Origins or not, she seems to show up regardless in DA2. Some people might think she just survived the fight. But I'm not so sure. I think she just has pieces all over Thedas, like a big old swamp witch ancient elven goddess Horcrux. The other thing is, an issue with this scene. On the outside, it simply looks like one friend, upset over his new mistake, seeks comfort from another. Some light chastising, angst, a comforting hug, and then a casual power siphoning between friends. But if we look at this from another angle, this could also be interpreted as a master chastising a minion for their failure. Solas failed in his first attempt to tear down the veil, and so he has gone to Mythal to apologize. However, I don't really believe he is aware of this himself. He may well believe their relationship is the latter mentioned (casual power siphoning sold seperately). But if Mythal is manipulating him, and he is playing into her hand, it would explain why she was creating a new piece of herself as he showed up. She knew he would suck the power from this piece of herself, and so she needed to make another. Either way, I do think Flemythal is the ultimate BBEG we are building up to at the end of the series. I personally speculate that Solas will be our primary focus through most of it, and then Flemythal will swoop in at some point toward the end (because swooping is bad) and just fuck up all the shit. Just all of it. So whether you chose to redeem or defeat Solas will determine whether he becomes your ally in the coming games against Flemythal. Sorry for the long post. Like I said, I just really wanted to talk about this, and I didn't wanna hijack your post but I didn't see any other way besides just posting this and letting the chips fall where they may.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 30, 2020 3:15:32 GMT
No need to apologize this is the crazy theory centre, it's exactly the place to post theories.
And I agree that flemeth definately has her own master plan and is manipulating events towards it. And as of tresspasser revenge against the evanuris seems the most likely option. But it wouldn't surprise me if something more complicated were going on since we've only scratched the surface of ancient elvhenan.
Not sure about the idea of flemythal being a justice spirit who only thinks they're mythal, rather than the true Mythal. Solas got a huge godlike powerup when he drained her, seems like she's more then that. Although if the theory of the original elves having transformed from spirits is true - Mythal may have been a Justice spirit originally, which may still affect her nature. And the betrayal of the other evanuris could have perverted her nature towards revenge.
Seems to me like we will probably stop Solas the primary antagonist's plan, resolving that story, plus whatever secondary plotlines are going on. But Mythal's parallel (or even completely perpendicular) plan will work. Leaving us and future games with fallout.
And whoever drank from the well will probably be important. Since that's an event that always happens, and that both binds the drinker to her will, but also gives them knowledge of her followers. So the combination of being forced to serve her but also the insight to sabotage her.
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Gludipow
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Post by Gludipow on Jul 30, 2020 7:29:57 GMT
That's an interesting perspective too. But yeah, definitely think Flemythal is probably going to have some sinister participation in the next game. Tevinter Nights just seems to further confirm this. As for the spirit theory, I'm kind of on the fence about that one. I know a lot of people think Solas was a Pride spirit, but Pride is a demon. A perverted purpose of a gentler spirit. Also, there are issues with what Solas told us that I don't think were lies. Such as the idea he grew up in a small village with little else to do than to dream. A big theory that seems to hold the most water is Solas being a Somniari. Which, if that is the case, him spending so much time in the Fade and dreaming so much even before erecting the Veil, makes sense. But I don't think he would have needlessly told Leliana about the village ruin they came upon at the end of Inquisition MSQ unless it was true, even partly. Which if that is the case, how does that work? Especially when you remember there were elven children (example being the elven child spirit in Origins).I think it that regard it could swing either way. What we do know for sure is the elves seem to have had a strong link to the Fade.
I wonder if Red Lyrium and the Blight have more to do with the severance of the Fade from the real world, rather than the Chantry origin story...
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2020 8:17:03 GMT
I think what happened to Mythal is the crux of the question. It is why it is so infuriating that you can only ask the questions Solas wants you to ask in Trespasser. Hardly surprising for the Trickster but it does leave a lot open to speculation.
In murder mysteries the detective constantly needs to identify method, motive and opportunity in order to identify the killer. Now Solas claims the Evanuris were collectively responsible but he could be mistaken about this. Did Abelas not know who was responsible for her murder? He apparently knew enough to say categorically it was not the Dread Wolf. Well, it seems to me you cannot totally rule someone out simply because of a perceived friendship, unless of course Abelas knew that the Dread Wolf was already bound to the will of Mythal. Why were the other gods still honoured in Mythal's temple if they had murdered her?
Method: We don't know and in any case it didn't remove her entirely from the scene, just reduced her greatly in power and returned her to the Fade (which is where I think all the Evanuris originated). Solas says it is very hard, if not impossible, to kill the Evanuris permanently and uses Mythal as proof of this. I suppose 7 Evanuris working together might have been what was required to reduce Mythal to her wisp state but I'd still like more evidence as to how that was accomplished. Did the other Evanuris think they were killing her permanently or were aware they were just reducing her in power?
Motive: Again we only have Solas' word for this. He says it was a lust for power by the other Evanuris. What if it was the opposite? What if the other Evanuris were fearful that Mythal had become too power hungry? What if the goddess of justice had already become too committed to vengeance against those that crossed her? Tied into this is the Dread Wolf's rebellion. It is not clear if our question "what made you move against them" related to his action to imprison them or his rebellion. If the latter then it fits with his assertion of their lust for power but what if it only related to his action in raising the Veil? Some people have previously suggested that Mythal may have been behind the rebellion. In which case, was this intended to undermine the other Evanuris for reasons of her own? Alternatively, were both sides tricked into thinking the other was at fault?
Opportunity: Well presumably anyone who could get close enough to Mythal and she did seem to have regular contact with the other Evanuris. It does seem as though she would need to be taken by surprise when she was off guard for this to be successful. Now there are stories we have seen about certain Evanuris, Andruil and Falon'Din, that would suggest that might have a reason to bear a grudge against Mythal but by the same token, surely she would be aware of this and less likely to trust them in the future. Could it have been Elgar'nan who led her into a trap and betrayed her; hence her closely identifying with Flemeth.
Back in the days before the Veil, the elves tended to play the long game. Even the idealised Dalish history of Arlathan admits that they went there to "settle disputes that had gone on for millennia." This certainly fits with Mythal's obsession with vengeance but would the others have risked moving against her, knowing that their People do not easily forgive and forget? As you say, surely being locked away in torment for eternity would be sufficient vengeance for anyone, particularly as you know personally that death is not always permanent with your kind. So if anything you would think that Mythal would want to keep them imprisoned. What is the vengeance she seeks that "will shake the very heavens"?
I don't really go along with the idea that Mythal was behind the assault on the Golden City, which was really Black at its heart, unless she was not aware that it was corrupted. I am pretty sure that the Eternal City, as it is known by the elves, was Mythal's seat of power. She was known for her cities according to the worshipers of Sylaise. So I could see her wanting to get back there, particularly if it would grant some sort of power boost as Corypheus seemed to think. However, I think she is genuinely opposed to the Blight, so is more likely driven by a desire to avenge herself on whoever released it on the world.
I am mindful of the Forgotten Ones. They have largely been overlooked apart from a few brief references in codices. Did the term Evanuris include them? It seems unlikely since one of them, Gelduran, seems to share Solas' view that they were not gods, by nature at least. He doesn't rule out godhood altogether though, just that dominance over others is earned by deeds. If he was among the leaders in the original war that led to the rise of the Evanuris to godhood, that could account for his opposition if they now pretended to be inherently superior to him. He claims that when the pride of the Creator gods led to their downfall (could this be a reference to Pride/Solas?) that:
"I forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery." Could this power of his own be the Blight?
Solas may have been aware of the danger, which is why he is said by the Dalish to have imprisoned both the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. If all were originally leaders in the first war then that would account for why he refers to them all as Evanuris, although I also suspect that the Forgotten Ones may have aided his rebellion and that is why both sides would see him as betraying them.
However, whilst the Creators were imprisoned where they could no longer speak with their faithful, may be the Forgotten Ones were not and were still able to whisper to people in their dreams. Human mages proved far more susceptible than the elves, so he was content to use them for his purpose, which was ultimately the release the Blight from where it had been locked away.
It is possible that Gelduran wasn't responsible for the creation of the blight but something that inadvertently was done by the Creators, or even Mythal herself as red lyrium, assuming this came first and then this tainted whatever it came into contact with, rather than the other way around. However, she sought to contain the risk of it escaping further into the world. Of course, this could be the reason the other Evanuris killed her because of their lust for the power that red lyrium gave but whatever the case, I do think Mythal does not wish to see it spread any further and to avenge herself on those responsible. Her desire to rescue the Old God soul suggests to me that the Arch-demon dragons are as much a victim of the Blight as everyone else, particularly as Kieran doesn't strike you as demon child. "A soul is not forced on the unwilling". Whether Mythal had moved to Kieran as seemed likely originally but then the Old God soul moved to Flemeth instead, both parties seemed okay with this. I think the OG soul would have resisted if it was not happy with the situation..
I agree that Flemeth/Mythal is likely manipulating Solas as she does everyone else. She admits to the Inquisitor that she nudges people in the direction she wishes them to take and sometimes it requires a slightly bigger push. So long as they are both committed to the same end, she will leave him to act independently but at some point I think their paths are going to diverge, particularly if we succeed in dissuading him from going through with this plan and that is when things are going to start getting really interesting.
Imagine for example that Solas is stopped, either by persuasion or violence, and then the drinker from the Well of Sorrows carries through with the plan to its fruition. Now that would be a nice irony, particularly if it was the Inquisitor who drank.
Incidentally I agree there are likely many pieces of Flemeth/Mythal secreted around the world, some in her daughters, so Yavana may well not be dead, and some elsewhere in objects or places associated with her. After all, the spirit that rose out of the place where the Well of Sorrows had been was an aspect of Mythal (note the associations with water which Mythal is originally meant to have been born from) and then entered the eluvian. Remember how it seemed to hover there in defiance of the blighted Corypheus? If Mythal had wanted him to enter her city, why would she oppose him now? To me it was the spirit of Mythal defying the blight and stopping it from following the others through the eluvian.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 30, 2020 8:41:21 GMT
The whole series is a dream that a baby is having.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 30, 2020 9:02:16 GMT
So I am really sorry if this hijacks your post/discussion, but this is something I have been wanting to talk about for a long time. I posted it on Tumblr, but never got the discussion I had hoped to initiate with it. I did get an interesting reaction to it from a former Bioware dev, but I will post that later. Anyway, what I wanted to talk about was a theory that I guess is popular in some circles but has many different variations. I haven't heard this one anywhere though, so either it isn't very popular or no one has considered it yet. The latter seeming less plausible given how long this game has been out. Anyway, to sum it up, it's basically this. There is more detail to this theory of mine, of course. But that is basically the TL;DR. Anyway, the first thing I wanted us to look at were these familiar snippets of dialogue we see in Dragon Age Inquisition. It is a series of dialogue that transpires with or without Kieran present, so it is relevant either way. It just seems to have more passion behind it in the cut scenes with Kieran, personally. Now, the biggest question that came to mind for me is how could Flemythal take revenge if she doesn't have a stake in the Veil coming down? It would be hard to seek vengeance when your target for said vengeance lingers somewhere within the vast and endless Fade. Flemythal is powerful, but I doubt she is that powerful. With that, what if when the spirit of Mythal went to Flemeth, many centuries had gone by. What if the Veil had not been apart of her original plan for revenge? What if Flemeth was the one to persuade those Tevinter magisters to crack open the Golden City? What if they were apart of her plot? Such as a trial running reconnaissance in order to seek out the Evanuris unknowingly. There are many theories suggesting the Evanuris are trapped in the Black City. So I don't think the idea is too far out of left field. But why would Flemeth be that hellbent on revenge? That is another part of my theory. Does this not sound familiar? Almost like we heard something similar somewhere before? That is because we did. In DAII shortly after meeting Anders. He talks to you about Justice, the spirit living within him. Anders experienced the same thing with the spirit of Justice we meet in Awakening. Anders was a very different person prior to their joining, almost like a personality 180. It could be his personality was just retconned, but I'm not so sure. But the other thing I would like to point out is, with Inquisition and again with Tevinter Nights, we have been given myriad examples of spirits who mistake themselves as being someone deceased. Be it the Divine from the Fade, the spirit on Lady's Rest, Cole, or the Down Among the Dead chapter in Tevinter Nights. Mythal herself was an icon of justice to her people. A protector and voice of reason. In the midst of her betrayal, if she held a strong desire for justice to be done to her murderers, would a Justice spirit not drawn in with such a fierce desire? And if there is one thing we have examples if to pair this with, it is that in a few of these cases, the spirit retains some memories and/or knowledge from the deceased. So, this spirit of Justice mistaking itself for Mythal goes to Flemeth in a pursuit to fulfill Mythal's will for Justice. Flemeth's desire for Justice from her own betrayal lures it in. But her anger perverts the spirit, and turns it into a spirit of Vengeance. All this in mind, I am sure many remember how Anders lied and manipulated Hawke into doing his dirty work so he could blow up the Chantry in Kirkwall, no? Something that Anders opposed in Awakening. Is it farfetched, then, to think Flemythal might do the same to Solas? A man who wears his past mistakes around his neck like an anchor, dwelling in them so deeply as he holds a strong desire to protect what remains of his people. To further emphasize this, I want to bring up this scene we were treated to after we finished the main story if Inquisition. In this scene we see Flemeth putting a piece of herself through the Eluvian. Some theorize this is a shred of her power being sent to Morrigan, which is plausible. But I don't understand what purpose it would serve. Nonetheless, we are led to believe Mythal makes quite a few pieces of herself. The reasoning for this is, regardless if you slay her in Origins or not, she seems to show up regardless in DA2. Some people might think she just survived the fight. But I'm not so sure. I think she just has pieces all over Thedas, like a big old swamp witch ancient elven goddess Horcrux. The other thing is, an issue with this scene. On the outside, it simply looks like one friend, upset over his new mistake, seeks comfort from another. Some light chastising, angst, a comforting hug, and then a casual power siphoning between friends. But if we look at this from another angle, this could also be interpreted as a master chastising a minion for their failure. Solas failed in his first attempt to tear down the veil, and so he has gone to Mythal to apologize. However, I don't really believe he is aware of this himself. He may well believe their relationship is the latter mentioned (casual power siphoning sold seperately). But if Mythal is manipulating him, and he is playing into her hand, it would explain why she was creating a new piece of herself as he showed up. She knew he would suck the power from this piece of herself, and so she needed to make another. Either way, I do think Flemythal is the ultimate BBEG we are building up to at the end of the series. I personally speculate that Solas will be our primary focus through most of it, and then Flemythal will swoop in at some point toward the end (because swooping is bad) and just fuck up all the shit. Just all of it. So whether you chose to redeem or defeat Solas will determine whether he becomes your ally in the coming games against Flemythal. Sorry for the long post. Like I said, I just really wanted to talk about this, and I didn't wanna hijack your post but I didn't see any other way besides just posting this and letting the chips fall where they may. its certainly a well argued theory but in universe... and without...I think Flemeth is 'dead" at this point. As are her plans. Now of course Morrigan could become the heir to those plans but really I think from a narrative perspective that has become Solas. Which if we consider my idea that even Mythal was being used it adds more weight to this.
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Gludipow
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Post by Gludipow on Jul 30, 2020 17:08:14 GMT
Well, before you completely dismiss my theory, I do wanna point something out about my Tumblr post. After I put it up, I got a comment from a former Bioware dev who kind of confirmed without confirming that it was on the right track. Now... I did look into this person on their Twitter, so I don't think they were lying about working for Bioware. Because on their Twitter they were reminiscing about things that happened around the office at the Bioware studio she worked at with Karin Weekes. Not trying to toot my own horn or anything. Just something that kind of got me more excited about it. As for why the Evanuris were on the Temple of Mythal when they murdered her, thing is, if the Temple predates her murder there is no reason to think that they would have the time to come around and tear them off her wall before Solas brought the Veil to mess everything up. I know a big theory is people think Solas is a servant of Mythal. Especially after Cole's line about leaving a scar when he burned her off his face. But I have an alternative here. So, if you romance Solas, do you notice there is a Fen'harel statue outside the mouth of the cave he takes you to? Is it not possible that this location is important to Solas? It has been pointed out before that the journey from Skyhold to Crestwood is a 3 week journey. Which is a long time to venture for a romantic waterfall. Now, it is possible the devs just thought the location would be romantic for the final romance scene. But what if there is something more significant to it? I mean, Solas fully intended to tell Lavellan he is Fen'harel at this location. To tell her everything. What if Solas intended to take her here specifically because it holds significance. What is "the veil is thin here" is a key-in and not just random dialogue from Solas. And what role do the Harts play? Why would they be here in a place where the veil is thin, with a Fen'harel statue standing guard outside the mouth? Now, in the Elven story of Ghilan'nain it says that "Pride stopped her" from killing all the creatures she created. And yes, pride is capitalized in the codez. Even more interesting, in the Exalted Plains where you need to get access to Ghilan'nain's Grove, there is another Fen'harel statue outside. Then you may recall this statue as well. Turns out, the Exalted Plains is the only map where you find Halla. What if that is not a coincidence, but intentional, and Solas is watching over Ghilan'nain's places? There is also a Hart statue by the Dalish camp, not far at all from where Solas's personal quest takes place. Then, in the Temple of Mythal there is an archway of Fen'harel statues. You see this if you ally with the Sentinels, and allow them to guide you through the temple. Your guide will open the door for you, and guess what is inside? A freaking Golden Halla. (Theory originally proposed by liaragaming) Now, people think this may be because Ghil and Solas may have been friends. But what if Solas, instead, was her servant or slave? And he was raised up by Mythal out of servitude. Him being a Somniari would make him useful. Solas and Mythal, mayhaps, trying to make changes to the slavery system like Dorian is now. And because they got in their way, they killed Mythal because they thought to kill her would cripple Solas's efforts to free the Elves. This is, naturally, just another theory, but with all the Fen'harel statues showing up around Hart and Halla, it goes beyond mere coincidence.
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Post by grallon on Jul 30, 2020 17:43:13 GMT
I think what happened to Mythal is the crux of the question. It is why it is so infuriating that you can only ask the questions Solas wants you to ask in Trespasser. Hardly surprising for the Trickster but it does leave a lot open to speculation.
One does not kill the Queen without the King's consent. There is a reason Mythal chose Flemmeth to bond with. Most likely because the witch's story mirrored hew own. In Flemmeth she found a kindred spirit, so to speak. It seems clear to me that Elgar'Nan allowed the others to kill Mythal, his consort, his equal - in rank if not in raw power, because she was interfering too much with his own plans. He may also have begrudged her the flounting of her friend and protégé (perhaps even lover), Solas. This would give her a very personal reason to seek revenge. When she chats with Morrigan and the inquisitor in the Fade, she becomes enraged, stating that not only her but the World was betrayed. Which makes me believe that she is driven by more than just a desire for revenge. There was sheer frustration and righteous indignation in that outburst - as if all her efforts to contain the Blight and minimize its effects had been foiled/delayed perhaps? It seems clear that even before her murder she had been engaged in various 'projects' to curb the excesses of her brethren and undermine their rule. It is also quite likely that Solas was her associate throughout. As a matter of fact, perhaps the Veil was one of her own ideas, discussed with Solas as some sort of contingency if all else failed, both to imprison the Evanuris and to contain the Blight. And in the aftermath of her murder, Solas, distraught and enraged, performed the ritual himself without, maybe, understanding the full scope of it. Think of the immediate effect raising the Veil had on Elvenhan. Perhaps if Mythal had raised the Veil herself things would have turned out very differently. Why then would Solas refuse categorically to partake of the Well of Sorrows? Because it comes with a geas of course, but could it be that he knew all his plans would then be revealed to Mythal? Which in turn would indicate he intends to do things he knew she would disapprove of... And yet, she knew he would come for her, and her powers, but she allowed it. Why? And one other question which has bugged me for some time. Why is it that whoever drinks of the well does not recognize Solas right away?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2020 18:11:53 GMT
Well, before you completely dismiss my theory, I wasn't totally dismissing your theory because I do feel we haven't seen the last of Mythal. It is possible they appeared to kill off Flemeth because Kate Meldrew was only signed on for 3 games and the character wouldn't be the same without her VA. In fact she may only have been signed on for 3 games specifically because Flemeth was never intended to continue to the end in her current guise. If she resurfaced again in Morrigan then presumably she would sound like Morrigan but with the character of Flemeth underlying her own. The question is, if Mythal has jumped ship, were the pieces of Flemeth/Mythal dotted around Thedas sufficient to allow Flemeth to survive or only Mythal? As Flemeth says that they should be regarded as one being, it is possible that whatever power was given to Solas was only a fraction of the whole and just as in DA2, Flemeth is going to pop up somewhere else. However, in DA2 it required someone to perform a ritual at Mythal's altar. Otherwise she would have remained indefinitely in the amulet. Of course, it would be easy enough to get the drinker of the Well of Sorrows to perform the required ritual, then be told to forget they had done so. Given the WIP pictures that were release, together with the teaser trailer with the idol, it does seem likely that red lyrium is going to feature prominently in the plot going forward. I've assumed Mythal is against it because Flemeth worked against the Blight in DAO but the idol does give pause for thought, both in what it seems to depict and why it may have been made. Solas makes some interesting observations on red lyrium and the Blight, although it would have been helpful if he had said more. He said of Corypheus: " His true advantage is the red lyrium. It is corrupted by the Blight as he is, thus taps into its power twofold. Whatever he was before, that is what makes him dangerous now." So clearly anyone using red lyrium is going to be more powerful than they were previously but if they are also blighted themselves, then that increases their power. He constantly warns against its use because it corrupts everything it touches. You would think he would be against using the idol but he wants it. To do what? Stop others from using it or something else? Solas also constantly criticises the Wardens for their approach to dealing with the Blight. When Varric argues that without the Wardens everyone would be blighted by now, Solas responds: " They've bought us some time, I will grant them that." This suggest his sense of urgency is driven by the presence of the blight in the world and even more by the discovery and use of red lyrium. Like I say above, if Mythal is opposed to the blight and red lyrium, then she may want retribution against those who introduced it to the world, particularly if the only way to cleanse the world is to release the fires of chaos from the Fade. So in that scenario Solas drops the Veil and then she deals with the perpetrators. However, I suppose it is equally possible that only Flemeth was against the blight and Mythal wishes to utilise it and red lyrium to achieve her ends whatever that might be, which will place her in opposition to Solas. On the other hand, possibly Solas intends using the power of bight magic, knowing it will corrupt him but allow him to destroy the Evanuris once and for all with the assistance of Mythal. Whatever the truth of the matter, I'm pretty sure that Mythal is ultimately pulling the strings. However, Flemeth does say "she was betrayed, as I was betrayed, as the world was betrayed." Why did killing Mythal betray the world unless it resulted in something terrible that will ultimately destroy it?
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