The Crazy Theory Center

I refer to the Dragon possessed as Hakkon.

These do seem to be three distinct groups. The titans were the antagonists in an early war. Those known as the Forbidden Ones, were apparently considered deserters in that war, so were banished, forbidden from returning to the realms they had abandoned. As they later turn up in game as powerful demons this lends credence to the idea that the elves were originally spirits that crossed over from the Fade to the material realm and then took on solid forms. It is possible that this was something that occurred automatically on touching the solid earth whereas the "brethren of the air" were spirits that had never left the Fade. However, the solid spirits still had the ability to abandon their forms on returning to the Fade and it is possible that they could not have gone beyond its fringes without doing so.

As stated in my post above, the Forgotten Ones may well have been part of the collective leadership originally, so all were known as Evanuris. Then they fell out with their fellow leaders over the issue of godhood and initially had to go into hiding, leaving the others as the self-styled Creator gods. The lesser elves remembered they had once been part of the Evanuris so assumed they were gods as well but clearly evil as they were in opposition to their "good" gods. The Creators were also happy for them to be remembered as gods in opposition rather than normal elves because of the fact they had all once been Evanuris together so it was expedient not to downgrade them or some may have started questioning their own divine status.

I'm a little bit wary about lore found in that comic series. Whilst on the face of it we are told that official storybooks, etc, are canon, even lore found in the games can be changed later with the explanation of differing interpretations of history, inaccurate transmission, etc.

The information on Great Dragons comes from two sources in the comic series, Yvaanna, a daughter of Flemeth, so you might think would have got her facts right, so long as Flemeth told her the complete truth (which is unlikely) and Arishok Sten, whose information allegedly came from the Tome of Koslun and Qunari lore. Whilst I can imagine them knowing something of the origins of their own race and its connection with dragons, I do wonder how much else was simply second hand information. For example, the story of Calendhad, who was around nearly a century before the Qunari landed in Thedas, so how did they know about his origins?

Since much of the comic series is actually narrated by Varric they also have the let out that much of the story could simply have been Varric exaggerating details or simply made them up. For example, the whole Magrellan aspect, allegedly a device that is capable of amplifying blood mage magic mind control on a Thedas wide scale to alter the memory of every living being? That may be what Titus imagined it was capable of in his dreams but I can't see it being possible in reality. So clearly it is something that exists in that story alone.

Anyway, that there were people who wanted to preserve the dragons seems likely. Given their association with the Old Gods they did start being persecuted on a grand scale. So providing a safe haven that was protected by magic, does seem likely and if Flemeth/Mythal was behind its creation, it is even more credible. Yavana says that many of the lesser dragons died in their sleep, presumably from old age. However, the Great Dragons seem to have survived and this is likely because they were drawing sustenance from the Fade as the Dreamer elves do. It is possible they entered the sanctuary at a much earlier stage than the persecution of ordinary dragons.

Yavana says that the dragons once ruled the skies. This could fit any of the scenarios we have considered. It could mean they were transformed elves or the Evanuris were originally dragons. It could mean they ruled the literal skies or the "sky" of the Fade. We now know she was telling the truth that there was time before the Veil. However, she also says that the "blood of dragons is the blood of the world". What did she mean by this? If anything can be described as the blood of the world, it is lyrium. Yet this comes from titans. Are titans and dragons related in some way? She also says that in destroying the dragons mankind would destroy itself. Again, what did she mean by this? We know dragons are resistant to the Blight so are dragons, specifically Great Dragons, going to be important in saving the world from the Blight? Or was this just a dead end/red herring that is never going to be relevant in the future plot, particularly now David Gaider is no longer part of the writing team?

What the Arishok Sten says about Great Dragons and the Old Gods may be relevant. According to the Tome of Koslun the Old Gods were like unto dragons as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men. The Old Gods granted power to their worshippers in exchange from sacrifices of blood. So it is clear that the Old Gods definitely weren't just extra big dragons. We already knew that Dumat is said to have taught blood magic to his followers and other Old Gods seem to have required blood sacrifices (not necessarily human) in return for their aid/knowledge. (See Canticle of Threnodies 6). The early Neromenians were probably Reavers as well, probably being given this knowledge by the old gods. However, we know ordinary High Dragon blood and may be even lesser dragon too, is sufficient to create a Reaver. It has never been clear what long term effects this might have on the person's DNA but if Great Dragons were once more common in the world, then surely Calenhad would not be the only person who had passed on the effects to their offspring, so there could be any number of people with dragon bloodlines running around in the world. So I think that particular plot line will not be carried forward and that is likely the last we will hear of it.

The Neromenians were known as the dragon's children and fighting with fire was also associated with them, hence the Maker recommending his faithful anoint their fields with water before the battle to prevent them being set alight. The original patron gods of the Neromenian kingdom, who were the first to reject the Maker in favour of the Old Gods, were Dumat - God of Silence; Toth - God of Fire and Lusacan - God of Shadow/Darkness. When they fought the Planasene, their king despaired of repelling them with the Maker's help so turned to a goddess for assistance. The blood sacrifice seemed as much a demonstration of faith in her and rejection of the Maker as actually providing power of itself. Whatever the case, with her knowledge/assistance the army of the Neromenians seems to have been inflicted with disease that halted their progress and thenceforth the Planasene transferred the allegiance to this goddess. If she was also an Old God then it is likely they received assistance from Razikale, the goddess of mysteries.



I am not altogether certain that the Old Gods gender was what they claimed for themselves or what their respective worshippers attributed to them, depending on their own cultural bias towards male or female leaders. At least two of the Old Gods appear to have changed gender over time as their sphere of influence also altered.

Andoral - Dragon God of Slaves was formerly known as the Old God of Unity as associated with marriage and coming of age. Their feast day was in mid summer as is still honoured as Summerday. These are usually aspects more commonly associated with female gods, particularly goddesses of fertility, so it may be both gender and role changed over time.

Zazikel - Known in modern times as the Dragon of Chaos due to Hessarian's description of their High Priest in the Canticle of Silence, Zazikel was actually a goddess originally and the Old God of Freedom. No doubt the Imperium found it necessary to alter this aspect when they started to keep slaves en mass.

Razikale - Old God of Mysteries and patroness of Minrathous. Before the Imperium was formed the High Queen of the kingdom of Tevinter was also High Priestess of Razikale so it seems likely that at that time Razikale was seen as female.

What I find most intriguing is why did the Old Gods stop communicating with their faithful? There are hints this was occurring before Corypheus and Co entered the Black City and could even be why the enterprise was planned in the first place, not through hubris but to find out why the gods had fallen silent. The memories of both Corypheus and his servant seem to suggest that people were losing faith in their priesthood and the Old Gods before the Blight. So was this because of the lack of communication by the Old Gods or was the reduction in faith the reason the Old Gods stopped communicating as a punishment? Was this collective silence something engineered by Dumat (God of Silence) and all part of their plan for gaining their freedom?

Certainly at some period Razikale went silent on her priesthood and they were so desperate they went deep into the Frostback Mountains in the hope of making contact again. Since she has not yet arisen as an arch-demon this could not be the reason so what did happen? Did the other Old Gods not respond with help during the first Blight because the armies of darkspawn were led by Dumat? After his defeat did they in fact resume contact but their priesthood were driven underground by persecution, so there are small groups of cultists who are still in contact with the last two Old Gods? This seems unlikely but without a definite date for the Razikale priesthood locating to southern Ferelden there is no way of knowing whether this was before, during or after the First Blight.

I just hope that we (at least at some point) find out some of the gods, whether Old Gods or Evanuris or whatever...aren't entirely evil

I think the nature of Mythal probably altered over time. She is also known as a mother goddess and is depicted cradling her children in some mosaics. She is also said to have been born from the sea or more specifically the tears of the earth mother brought on by the destruction caused by Elgar'nan's battle with the Sun. Essentially that Dalish legend has her arbitrating in a dispute. So Mythal the mother is the one depicted as the peacemaker, teacher and discipliner of the children on a day to day basis, whilst Elgar'nan, the father figure, is the more authoritarian one who dolls out punishments for more serious offences.

Elgar'nan translates as "Spirit of Vengeance" so he was thought of as the vengeful one of the two of them. So clearly her "death" had an adverse effect on Mythal's spirit as she now seems obsessed with vengeance. Even so, she still seems to take an interest in the Dalish and strangely enough does not hold them in the same contempt that Solas does for continuing to pursue their religion. Of course it could be that it was them remembering her constantly in their prayers that assisted in her in maintaining her identity/memory when she was in the Fade, since that would appear to be how it works for the Avvar gods.

As for the other gods, I await more evidence as to whether they were all collectively responsible for Mythal's death. Solas can hardly be regarded as an unbiased witness to their character as he was in opposition to them at the end and may even have not been on the best of terms when he was Mythal's side-kick. Parallels were drawn between the Evanuris and the Magisters of the Imperium. Are all the Magisters evil? I am sure there is a great deal more to the story than we have been told thus far.

Actually Templar magic still works against blood mages. Evangeline uses her power to drain a blood mage of his mana in Asunder and in the War Table mission in Tevinter to protect Maevaris from her enemies, sending southern Templars is particularly effective because of their abilities which totally foxes Tevinter mages because their Templars do not have such attributes so have not learned how to overcome them. Tevinter Templars are really just glorified soldiers who work on behalf of the ruling elite to eliminate rogue mages/political rivals. It is likely that the assassins sent against Maevaris would have been using blood magic.

The whole paradox about lyrium is that it both provides a connection with the Fade and yet can also be used to block it. Solas says that Templars are reinforcing reality when they use their abilities but that still doesn't explain why lyrium is necessary to do this unless it is a type of magic.

The novel The Last Flight seemed to suggest that blood magic is drawing its power from somewhere other than the Fade but without saying where. The blood mage, Calien, talks at one point of making a "blind bargain" when performing blood magic but with whom? Solas says it is no different from other magic except that it interferes with his connection with the Fade, which is why he doesn't use it. However, why would that be? I wondered for a time if it was drawing its power from the Void but that seems more likely the source of power for Blight magic, the use of which Solas does condemn as wholly corrupt.

So there would appear to be three sources of magical power, the Fade, blood magic and the Void. We have not yet come across an example of a mage, other than Corypheus using red lyrium as a source of mana but presumably if it were possible then it would connect them with the Void, just as ordinary lyrium connects them with the Fade. As for the source of the mana that blood magic provides, I wonder if it does come from the blood itself. It is possible that every living creature has a lyrium signature to a greater or lesser degree if it is a component of the earth on which they live. Dragons have the strongest concentration, followed by elves, followed by mages and then mundanes. May be if the magical content of the blood gets to a certain concentration that is how mages come into being and why those families that already have a mage are more likely to produce them than those that don't. There is certainly something in elven blood that makes its use more potent in blood magic rituals and according to Calpernia's story this is also seen as true of mages, which is why she lived in fear of being given to a Circle to conduct magical experiments on her when she was a slave.

We also do not know how different magic is in the way it is controlled post-Veil compared with pre-Veil times. All elves apparently possessed some degree of magical ability and the Evanuris were just that much more powerful than the rest. There would have been nothing blocking their connection with the Fade so presumably no limit to the replenishing of mana so it was their ability to control that power which was crucial to their success. Blood magic may well have been the way they defeated the titans but this may have had nothing to do with the lyrium and more to do with the fact that there are certain spells that can only be performed by a blood mage.

A further thought. Cassandra maintained that certain powerful Seekers are able to set the lyrium aflame in a mage's blood both to torture for information and even kill. There is a blood magic spell that does the same, although the description makes no mention of lyrium, simply boiling the blood. It is not clear how Seekers are able to do this but it does not require lyrium as their abilities are different to those of Templars (even though in game Cassandra's are not).  I have wondered if it has something to do with the faith spirit they connect with as that seems to be what grants them their power.  So if it is possible to set lyrium aflame in ordinary blood, imagine what it would do to the creature whose blood was actually pure lyrium. This could then be the reason why the majority of lyrium in the Deep Roads is crystalline because it has been subjected to great heat.

Solas doesn't say that the blood magic 'interferes with his connection with the Fade' - he states that it seems to make it more difficult to enter the Fade. It's probably why he also detests tea, lol. It makes him more awake and 'chases away spirits from his mind'.

Anyway, to specify - there's a significant difference between saying that something interferes with the Fade and saying that it makes it more difficult to enter it, especially that blood magic - like lyrium - is basically seen as a potent conduit for magic, which is basically Fade itself. In fact, it's so potent that it can pull spirits into the real world in physical forms or make real people tear the Veil and walk the Fade in their physical forms.

So I think Solas doesn't use blood magic because it interferes with his Dreamer talents and makes it more difficult to enter the Fade via dreams (and likely venture deep into it while dreaming), rather than it disrupts the connection itself as a whole.
The Void IS part of the Fade and we had Patrick Weekes explain fairly recently that blood isn't a source of magic itself, but rather blood magic's potency is rooted in the concept of sacrifice and pain, which in itself seems to suggest that it's all still linked to the Fade.

So, it's likely what Solas said - magic is magic, just like water is water, but it can be used in different ways. I think it's the last part that makes all the necessary distinctions between different types or schools of magic and their potency may be determined by how strong certain concepts are rooted in the consciousness of wills connected to the Fade, which is probably why some other types or 'sources' of it are better conduits for magic than others. More on that later.
Are they really any spells that can be only cast by a blood mage? I don't think there is any consensus on that. There's not even much of an agreement what is and isn't blood magic at places. However, I'd like to point out another very real (in that world) source of power and that is knowledge. Like, in DA setting knowledge (and memories associated with it) appears to literally BE power. In Dalish myths Mythal deals with Andruil's descent into madness by stealing her knowledge of how to enter the Void. Titans are suggested to be subjugated because they were made to forget stuff. Memories and whatever knowledge was stolen with them are how the Nightmare got powerful and is also how Corypheus got more powerful once he extracted knowledge from the orb Solas was very adamant he should never have accessed.

So it's possible that blood magic's power stems from some sort of secret knowledge that affects its potency as a conduit for magic.

Anyway, we don't really know what feeds distinctions between different types of magic, BUT... given that there are many powerful entities and spirits that govern certain aspects of world/magic, or seem to shape the Fade itself in certain ways, AND the fact that the Void is part of the Fade suggests that, just like the Void, the Fade itself may be separated into different 'districts' or parts, or governed by powerful entities that shape the raw power into something more specific, thus creating distinctions between its many different aspects and making some parts more powerful while some other more flexible and so on.
What do you mean 'not clear'? Every special ability Seekers obtain/unlock after their vigil stems from their direct link with Faith spirits. It's well-established at this point. I mean heck, they are suggested - if not literally stated - to be abominations bonded with those spirits, which suggests that instead of lyrium it's those spirits (or the stunted connection to the Fade that they have unknowingly restored via the rite) that are conduits to magic they use.

And the fact that their 'reality reinforcing' abilities are basically identical to what Templars can do ain't a game development oversight, but a direct hint (because we aren't just informed about this through gameplay or combat descriptions alone - Solas and Cassandra literally talk about this). I mean heck, both from combat and technical aspect perspective it's basically mass dispel and that ability is widely used by mages.

Also, what other talents Seekers obtain may be not related to anything specific they do, other than they are predisposed this way, just like some mages are more predisposed to different things or how ancient elves were suggested to be more or less talented in ways of using magic.

I also don't think that setting lyrium aflame in ordinary blood means that somebody set the blood of Titans aflame or that their crystalline form has anything to do with great heat. Crystals are usually found within earth and Titans/Stone are either suggested to be deeply tied to it or are Earth itself, so it's probably just the way they are. The Seeker's talent is probably just meant to be an individual quirk thing.

In DAI the current leader of Seekers literally comes out and says that they are abominations.

Ironically, people seem to think that Lucius Corin is using the word solely as a metaphor, but given that 'abomination' has a specific meaning in the world of Thedas and information we uncover about the rite as well as dialogues Cass has with Solas and Cole the suggestion is that the opposite has happened.
Again, it's in the game:
Solas: You seem troubled, Seeker. Still plagued by thoughts of your order?
Cassandra: I... am reminded of what I was told following my vigil. They said my abilities were a gift from the Maker, a reward for my faith and dedication. But it was a trick, wasn't it? A ritual no different that the Harrowing, simply magic...
Solas: Do you know how rare spirits of faith are? How difficult it is to draw them to this world? You should be proud, having accomplished something so remarkable, not ashamed it was not what you thought.
Cassandra: Thank you, Solas. That... does make me feel better.
Solas: Your faith does you credit, Cassandra. I hope your Maker is worthy.
Aside from probably only select few being able to reach the point of vigil and then pass it (or that the Seeker training appears to be more involved/longer/expensive/elite) it's not an insignificant factor that Seekers can't be controlled by the Chantry the way Templars are with lyrium. It is definitely not uncommon for a harder but ultimately better solution to be overlooked in favor of cheaper means with exploitable side effects, like being able to 'mass produce' soldiers that can be kept on a short leash, thanks to the Chantry being the major supplier of stuff they're addicted to.
I'd refrain from taking too many cues from combat and combat descriptions, or groups of spells or abilities that are available to classes or roles, given how many non-diegetic elements combat contains as part of gameplay rather than internal narrative. We do know that combat hasn't always been designed with in-story accuracy in mind (David Gaider mentioned that, especially in relation to DAO). That's not to say that this is part of the game that is entirely separate or dissonant with the universe itself, but caution is advised when trying to derive answers about how magic works from it.

We also know that codex entries should be taken with grain of salt as they are exclusively written from fallible, subjective perspective. Besides, I'm not sure if whole of non-blood magic can be characterized as 'deals with demons'  ...

As for potency of elvhen or mage blood - I suspect that this has something to do with blood 'retaining' some ancient memories buried deep within. Those memories probably affect the strength of given bloodlines in some magical ways (which is probably also tied to the way elvhen 'genes' are not passed to offspring from mixed unions).

Blood is probably tied to the Fade in some arcane ways, given that it virtually universally symbolizes life or life-force (as well as heritage) which makes blood itself probably as potent a conduit on figurative grounds alone as the concept of sacrifice or pain that appears to feed into the strength of blood magic.

Anyway, since we're discussing blood and Titans a bit earlier, it's hard not to mention this comment that Cole has for dwarven Inquisitor:
"The stone, still there, silent and reaching up for the blood that walks. No dreams with the cord cut. You sell it."

!!!!




What if there are parts of the fade that do not touch/connect to Thedas, beyond just being seperated by the veil? Perhaps that means that they are so "far away" that spirits do not form from the people of thedas's emotions and do not change the fade to reflect details/events that happen there. Part/s of the fade without any reflections of Thedas and its inhabitants.

What if The Void is the parts of The Fade that haven't been formed into anything? And how much raw power can be tapped from a place that hasn't been using it up to make things?