The Crazy Theory Center

1) It's no more reading than many other speculations and so long as we don't get more material they are no less unlikely. Also, it's not just Solas, it's hints strewn all over the story or pretty overt comments of, say, other ancient elves the like Felassan's “We were everyone. There were no humans, no dwarves, no race but the elves.”

2) If the elves were quick to note when shemlen first appeared after their civilization was already in deep decline (that was some time before they linked them losing their immortality with proximity to quicklings) I find it quite unlikely that the culture that clearly cares about recording knowledge (in places like Vir Dirthara) at its peak didn't take any note of however primitive they thought humans are. It's like the idea that the kossith exiles may have built the pyramids on what was loosely, but still, Tevinter territory and Vints never gave a damn to notice the activity or do something about it. It just doesn't mesh with what we know know about Tevinter (and the Imperium is pretty much Elvenhan 2.0).
That's not to say we won't finally uncover such materials at a later date - but we haven't done so yet.

3) Nobody says anything about finding tons of reliable or intact evidence, especially the farther we venture into the past - but we're talking about a situation where we can find signs of Elvhen or dwarven civilizations or their records (or traces of strange civilizations like the snake people or strange giants from Frostback basin or bizarre underground civilization that seems separate from the dwarven one), including those from periods of history the memory of which appears to be seriously tampered with. Yet - so far - very little about humans, save association of pyramids to them and places like Brecilian ruins which experienced a period of peaceful coexistence between humans and elves (with humans living there suggested to hold a pretty high position in societal fabric, given that we find an elvhen-speaking human boy and his human mom that is implied to have been in Uthenera before she perished).

Never mind that we actually do find intact or reliable evidence from loooong ago that no Orlesian or Vint has reached or appropriated or tampered much with, or despite no modern elvhen or dwarven records mentioning them: like Primeval Thaig or Temple of Mythal or the Titans or many different locations in which we oftentimes find ancient sources nobody knew of before. And that's without counting all the spirits in the Fade that still offer knowledge forgotten by many. I mean, even if elves were uninterested by humans, you'd think there will exist spirits who would be, just like some of them were with sundered dwarves.

And I am perfectly aware that there are long periods of history the memories of which may have fallen victims of different magical cataclysms or more or less active manipulation. Heck - the fact that almost nobody remembers the world without the Veil is a testament to that. Yet - again - even in this case we occasionally uncover verifiable motherloads of virtually untampered material, thanks to which we can have a sneak peek to periods from that forgotten history.
Which, btw, remains a problem for the idea that the Elvhen never uncovered or recorded much of anything about humans, given that Elvenhan is suggested to be about as advanced as our current IRL civilization is - only instead of laser scanning or carbon dating they have magical technology and deep knowledge of Fade/magic and spirits.

Like... ironically, Elvenhan appears to be much more similar to our own civilization than modern Thedas is - they've had quick means of transportation and communication (including something that worked like the Internet), well-developed and established scientific method (as evidenced by some materials in Vir Dirthara, records of Ghilan'nain's experiments and Solas's clearly studied, scientific approach to pretty much everything), population suggested to well exceed what exists now on Thedas and that population being mostly concentrated in large population centers, similarly how people are in XXIst century. Oh, and how can we forget exploiting underground resources (the exploiting of which might possibly be the decisive element that has led to their end) and having means to destroy the entire civilization, in one way or another.

They are, in fact, so similar in many respects that I am fairly sure that this is all heading towards Elvenhan being something of a cautionary tale.

I never thought about the Elvhen in those terms before. Don't know if I should be worried or if this means DA is even more ideologically fit from a meta perspective then I thought.

Well since this is the place for crazy theories and since the thread is on an elvhen tangent.....I want to talk about the vhenadahl. I have two theories regarding them.

Theory #1: The golden metallic trees seen in the crossroads are og vhenadahl. Or at least they are what inspired the vhenadahl the city elves use today. The reasoning for this is actually pretty simple. According to the city elves (link here) the vhenadahl "was a symbol for Arlathan", and the golden trees themselves are littered literally all over the crossroads which clearly indicates they are of either of magical or symbolic importance.

Theory #2: Both the old vhenadahl and the modern vhenadahl can be used as conduits for magical power. Now this is pretty much confirmed for some of the golden vhenadahl in the shattered library, as it was these structures that interacted with the mark durring the Trespasser DLC. But there have been....odd things concerning the alienage vhenadahl.

For one thing it was a structure of interest for the Places of Power questline in DAO. Now the other sites I can understand, as all of the other sites are either on or located within an area with a distinct magic familiarity. There's an altar of sundering which obviously has magical connotations. One is located in the Circle library which is an a magic center. And another is located on a tombstone in the brecilian forest which is magically noteworthy on account of the location's thin veil. But the alienage's vhenadahl? How is that structure/place magically significant?

And then we have Felassan from TME (link to screenshot here) who was acting a bit hedgy when around the city's vhenadahl. In addition to resisting the notion of identifying the city elves as 'his people', he seemed borderline worried when he said "Let it just be a nice tree".

Granted I'm probably overthinking theory 2, but this is a place for crazy theories.

I think the the trees aren't just symbols of Arlathan or are important because they may symbolize Arlathan - I think the trees themselves are important parts of elvhen culture. There MIGHT exist a tree in Arlathan... though my idea what it is exactly is different from yours.

I already mentioned ginormous trees and their relevance in elvhen culture or what they may do/symbolize in the past, so I may as well dig up and paste those for... speculative digestion.
To expand: I think there might have been an important tree growing in the midst of Arlathan. In fact, when Solas reminisces about the city he mentions 'spires of crystals twining through the branches'... so there must've been something. And, given what we have found in ToM and FB and their suggested significance, I think it was probably no less big, if not the biggest at the time.

I do have to wonder what happened to that tree, considering that the Frostback Basin one has clearly been cut in half, while Arlathan is suggested to have been buried underground. Interesting thing about Frostback Basin.. there's a deep crater right next to that ginormous tree. As if something was there and either got removed... or perhaps buried. I'm not sure that I buy that Arlathan was there. But if it was a city or temple of any importance maybe the cutting of the tree meant that it has met similar fate? Perhaps the roots supported the bulk of the city and it all collapsed under earth as the tree was cut down and the magic ceased flowing for a time it took the tree to regrow?

My other theory is that such trees grow on top of subjugated/killed Titans and may even pump lyrium (else?) above ground. They sustain themselves and the surrounding area that way. It would explain massive jungles surrounding trees in FB and Arbor Wilds that grow in environments that are too far South and too cold to be that lush or... well, even there. It's sorta-kinda the suggestion from Solas's mural - that blue thing that we saw in Well Of Sorrows is distinctly the color of lyrium (as well as 'special blue magic' we see emanating from the Well, and Mythal and Solas). One can say that it may be just water.. thing is that we know from Well Of Sorrows that just water it ain't, never mind that the element itself is consistently linked with Titans/Earth.
Well, uh... maybe because it's a tree? And not just a tree, but a tree regarded with reverence by elves living nearby? Perhaps this works through sheer symbolism (similarly to those metal tree statues), kinda how concept of pain and sacrifice does for blood magic? Trees are important from symbolic standpoint and thus maybe they can act as conduits of magic, especially if specific specimen are considered significant or enough people (elves) form enough emotional attachment to it?

Just throwing ideas out there.

And I think Felassan may have just been typically ancient elfy at that moment. He'd be the first of the bunch to be reluctant about calling modern elves his people (and I think at that specific time he wouldn't let Briala have the password to eluvians yet). He may just not wanted to continue the whole conversation. 'They're... nice people. Why don't we leave it at that?'

Buuuut... maybe acknowledging that the tree is 'speshul' meant that he'd have to acknowledge that elves are indeed people? Perhaps it does work in a way I've described and ability to turn the tree into a magical conduit a thing that stems from something ancient elves did? 

Do we actually know how far back the conversion of the Kossith occurred? We know the group that arrived in Ferelden was Kossith not Qunari but their presence could be because they were fleeing persecution in their country of origin. If Kossith had colonised Par Vollen earlier than that, may be they were trying to reach there but were blown of course and their ship or ships wrecked. This could have even happened to a regular trading vessel that wasn't fleeing persecution. With no way of knowing where they were in relation to their intended destination or a means of sending a message, they simply dug in and tried to survive and would appear to have been succeeding until the First Blight came along. It is also purely speculation by later historians that the Blight was what wiped out the colony. It is true that they must have survived that far because their kidnapped females became the first ogres but could something or someone else have been responsible for their extinction?

The history of Par Vollen is shrouded in mystery. All we know is that the elves claim the first humans arrived there. Then there is a big gap until the Qunari turn up some 3,000 years later. As you say, that would be sufficient time for a civilisation to develop that could have built the pyramids. However, it would have to have been in parallel with the rise of the Imperium. It is possible it was related to the civilisation on Seheron. The Fog Dancers speak of their ancestors and the March of the Four Winds, a lost people who fled to the northern islands and the great heroes who learned at the feet of the elves. The writer also says their battles with the various groups that have sought to conquer their island have "ground our ancient halls of wisdom practically to dust."

Since the Fog Dancers say that their ancestors fled to the northern islands in the plural, it might reasonably be assumed that this civilisation was spread over all the Boeric islands, the pyramids are a remnant of the "halls of wisdom" on Par Vollen and the island of Par Ladi (what does Par mean - could it be "island in their language?) have successfully employed their magic to repel invaders. The reason they are so reclusive and unwelcoming to outsiders is that they learned from the fate of their southern neighbours who were originally more open and accepting. The wise women of Rivain may be another remnant of this civilisation on the mainland. It is worth noting that the Rivaini seers respect spirits and have a close relationship with them, just as the ancient elves did and where do the Fog Warriors say their ancestors learned their wisdom? "At the feet of the elves". Admittedly the Avvar have a similar positive relationship with spirits but who is to say that they didn't learn from the ancient elves as well?

So even if the pyramids were not actually built by the elves, it seems likely that the (magical) technology used to raise them probably came from knowledge learned directly from the elves, as opposed to simply scavenging in ruins.   However, it has just occurred to me that the Neromenians who established the kingdoms on the mainland could have either been people from this civilisation naturally spreading or alternatively a group that rebelled against authority but not having the power at the time to overthrow the government, fled south instead.  This would explain how they recognised the value of the elven ruins and even what to look for there.   Then later, when the Imperium was established, they recognised the threat that their northern neighbours might represent and moved to conquer them.   The earlier civilisation was not naturally aggressive, unlike the Neromenians that the elven legends recognise as such, as do the human ones, so initially did not realise the danger.   However, once both Seheron and Par Vollen had fallen to the aggressors, Par Ladi put up the magical barricades and since they were further away, Tevinter decided it was not worth pursuing.

Another thought has occurred to me.  The legends of the Fog Dancers definitely point to elves and humans co-existing at some point in the past.  Now either this was a group of ancient elves who wanted to pass their wisdom on to the newcomers or it was a group post Veil who did not blame humans for the Quickening.   I am more included to the former.   Clearly the Dalish legends suggest that there was contact with humans before the Quickening occurred and that some elves seemed to want to interact with their human neighbours whilst others disapproved, the latter group being responsible for the Dalish legends.  If initial contact on the island encouraged the more aggressive Neromenians to move south onto the mainland, this might also explain why the legends only speak of the humans in a negative light because it seems to me that the enclave in the Arlathan Forest, from which the majority of modern elves would seem to descend, was the pro-Evanuris, anti-human faction.    Whatever the case, the Fog Dancer legends would definitely point to elves being on the island from an early date, not just as escaped slaves of Tevinter, they were on good terms with the humans there and passed on much of their wisdom to them.

I long to learn more about both Seheron and Par Vollen before the arrival of Tevinter and the Qun. If we do not get the chance now we are going north, I am going to be very disappointed.   However, in the light of the history given above, I am very hopeful that we are going to Seheron at least because somewhere deep in their jungles lies buried some ancient elven "wisdom" and possibly in the jungles of Par Vollen as well, may be two pieces of a metaphorical puzzle that we need to solve to aid/thwart Solas or in some other way resolve the main plot of the game. 

Nobody is missing anything - what we have here is a plain old disagreement. You say that finding evidence of truly ancient civilization is even more difficult in Thedas, I say that it ain't necessarily the case.

I claim so because, despite the supposed difficulty, we just keep finding stuff. Significant chunks of truly ancient history have survived grand wars, rebellions, creation of the Veil that has somehow muddled everyone's memory about existence of Veilless world, five Blights and all kinds of magical or mundane cataclysms or simply ravages of times. Heck - we've found even creatures that seem to be some of the most primordial of them all and may yet serve as foundation of reality. It's probably hard to find many things older than them. And whatever things some may have wanted to eviscerate, there's always the Fade that is basically a baked in repository of memories or ancient beings like Solas or Mythal that clearly know stuff and that knowledge informs their actions.
The meta I talk about isn't just some events or history we glean from all those playthroughs - it's all the narrative framework.

Do you think we discover anything the writers don't want to tell us at specific points in story, or that they don't tell anything to us with HOW they spin the tale?

The adventures we follow are directed. All that world-building and subsequent exploration is subordinate to keeping the story ball rolling. The intention behind most of those events, sources or conversations is predominantly exposition, setting up or fleshing out the plot, story arcs or themes. Paying attention to in-game historical records or events while ignoring the narrative that drives the whole thing is missing forest for trees.
We're talking here from position of informed audience and not any in-world individual. At this point we may even know more than most individuals in modern Thedas thanks to all the game and auxillary material published over the years, and that's beside all the stuff we can know that in-universe folks simply can't (unless the story breaks the 4th wall at some point, which doesn't seem likely).

And, actually, yes - even in-universe we do know of or directly interact with characters or entities that may have existed long before Elvhen empire, or beings that posses knowledge from that time or maybe earlier. Heck, when we actually traveled through time and altered the future we know from JOH that there are spirits in the Fade that posses knowledge of these events (and have imparted it to a person that couldn't have possibly heard about it via more mundane sources).

What you say 'isn't realistic' is not only realistic there, but has usually already happened in some ways. Things have been preserved from deep past in supposedly impossible states and beings like spirits (or Dreamers) can glean into things through means and methods we don't possess on our mundane little planet. Which is why I'm continually confused why you keep positing that there'd be nothing left, even in a less erratic nature world, when we already know that on Thedas this is simply not how it is.
Er... there was no mural, but chapters of an ancient journal. The murals depicting snake-like bipedal creatures can actually be found all around Thedas in DAI and there's even a humorous mention of snake-people in JoH. So not only they didn't hide this - they have rubbed our face in it a little, heh.

The thing about Bioware I like is that their worlds are usually pretty tightly packed with information and clues, including things that they may be setting up to pay off long in the future. It's not first (or the last) time the twist or reveal was that the truth was blatantly staring us in the face for a while before most of us realized what it is.

Will they do the same with origins of humanity/else? Dunno. But as the story shifts gear and moves us increasingly towards tackling mysteries of deep past and potential origins of reality itself, the question will inevitably move at the forefront. I already see movements the narrative makes in that direction, as you can tell. I also suspect that our trip to Tevinter will be quite revelatory in this regard.
There's some confusion here. You said that such lessons befits more the genre of science fiction - I addressed that by pointing out that it ain't necessarily the case.
The Vints don't appear to serve the same role in the story - their theme seems to be repeating mistakes all over again. It is especially poignant given that the Vints are continually characterized as a more or less distorted mirror of Elvenhan, which... kinda points at a direction I suggest things are going.

The Dwarven kingdom is its own can of worms, though not separate from the rest.
...And how that exactly goes against my theory? You've literally stated exactly where I think things are going - of course, with an additional layer of all that magic on top making things maybe a bit more literal than over here. They're one people, or originate from one people, and all the things we/them think that make them distinct from one another may yet prove to be fairly superficial. I mean... it's pretty much entirely the thing you seem to like.

Yet, given that on one hand you say that this is the thing that makes the story interesting and on the other you say that this would be a superficial and unintelligent message I can only assume you think I posit that, after such revelation, people will all come together, discard all their differences and sing Kumbaya for all eternity  ...

Is that what it is? If so, you are mistaken. And given all the comparisons drawn between Thedas and our Earth - we're quite a ways past the realization that we're one people with one origin with all life and living on one planet we should prooooobably take care of. Somehow that didn't make us bury all the tensions and sometimes created new ones. So I fail to see how you think my proposed theory would serve to diffuse all the negative sentiments, instead of providing new complications, like potential return of magic and unaccustomed people likely having a hell of a time adjusting to new reality or things/talents a lot of them were taught to fear all their life (in a world where that emotion can directly affect the fabric of reality and is mentioned by Solas to basically be the thing that eventually gave rise to the Evanuris).

Again, you're totally underestimating the differences between finding evidence of something that happened ten thousand years ago, and something that happened a hundred thousand years ago as a simple matter of how hard it is to find shit from the past. It sounds like you think you have some vague feel for what will and will not be revealed based on your own read of how things are revealed in the series, which we've already determined that I don't share. Fair enough. Agree to disagree and all that.

The second half of your post is nonsensical though. I've said nothing about science fiction being the most "fitting" thing to learn from(?  ?). What I said was that the elven empire, based on what we know about it, is clearly more along the lines of science fiction than it is directly comparable to any given modern society as you posited it might be. As I've said three times now, any fictional society inherently carries a message about societies and people in general, without necessarily being a potshot aimed at you and me. 

I don't get where you seem to think I've contradicted myself. I've pointed out that the series is full of different kinds of peoples having real differences, because people have real differences. As I said, the notion that all of that is easily swept under the rug because we're all the same underneath is insanely superficial and unintelligent, and again, as I said, I haven't gotten that feeling from the series so far at all, which is all I intended to say.

Yup, definitely some confusion. And this line of conversation also clearly isn't going anywhere. I've said my piece.

Midnight Tea-

Your mention of tress possibly stemming it’s growth from a Titan caught my eye, as I was actually going to mention the constant, vague codexes relating to ancient vines and flowers found throughout DAI.

Some are even mentioned when pertaining to the murder of a Titan, with the codex even stating just before the mention of it: “we will make the earth blossom with their passing.” Maybe that line was literal. Could the elves have created these magical tree conduits through a Titan? Foci, which I think is also made from a Titan, basically does the same thing- harnesses magical energy, right? There is definitely something going on with plants and titans.

There is another codex mentioned in Trespasser about a tall flower that is as beautiful and grand as it is deadly. The owner of that memory stated that it was the last of its kind - I wonder if it’s because of whatever happened to its source, the Titans? Cannot even begin to theorize whatever happened to them, but even so, maybe it stemmed from the Titan that became blighted, and Mythal had to do away with it (which got her killed?)

If the flower that pumps “citron-death” does in fact stem from a blighted Titan, that could possibly be what came to Fellassan’s mind when he blurted that he hoped the tree was a nice tree.

My theory is that Elgar’nan, relating to the vines in question based upon his mural, performed blood magic (from the same codex I first mentioned: the scent of blood fills the air) that discovered how to harness the magical energy of a Titan limitlessly and turn it’s blood red.

I really don't see Solas as being the end or the last big threat in this particular storyline. There are far too many things and creatures that *should* be dealt with to just ignore. That being said they could decide to, or they could decide to give us a really meaty finale with DA 4.

And I agree entirely. Endings to RPGs shouldn't be one final hamfisted choice at the end but rather the culmination of your choices throughout the game. And even if we get the option to try and redeem him I still think it likely that whether or not he accepts depends on our actions. Afterall the man is basically a demigod.

Given all the parallels between the two I am willing to bet that the way Leliana's story has concluded in DAI is how things may conclude with Solas - maybe not in identical fashion and on a bigger scale, but the formula may be about the same. With Leliana, if we missed two crucial story beats she ultimately becomes hardened!Leliana.

I do have to wonder what this means for people who have potentially 'missed the beat' with Solas and either didn't befriend or intentionally antagonized him. Trespasser, after all, doesn't present the redeem option to anyone Solas has negative approval with.

Would we be given an option to 'fix' that if we'd want in DA4? Just like some may roleplay redeemers who ultimately decide to kill Solas, some may want to play a character who pursued Solas with strong intention to deal with him once and for all, but decided otherwise at the end. 

This may be a problem for new players - should they be denied that option? I can see ways to maybe undo DAI's decisions through series of different choices in DA4, but there's also a question whether players who did play the game, or know the story enough, should be rewarded for their diligence and thus only have access to more options when they play previous games or know which choices to pick in DA Keep?

Maybe that's the way to do that anyway - the devs didn't include choices like existence of Kieran in default world state, because new players wouldn't know who the heck is Morrigan and her kid anyway. I certainly didn't during my first playthrough  

...At the same time one can't help but to think that the relationship between Solas and Inquisitor will be important and more consequential than whether Kieran exists or not. At least that's the impression from Trespasser. So it would make sense to at least sketch this thing out, even for players who have no clue who Inky or Solas is.

I think this is where dual-protag would come in handy. We could have a scene in which the PC talks with Inky and we could have a series of different dialogues between them that may re-affirm of change our past decisions, similar to how TW3 did it.

God I hope not. What they did with Leiliana was horrible (imo). I hope that if such a scenario arises it'll be handled a lot better and an accurate accounting of our choices.

I think it would have to be a case of being willing and able to persuade him to abandon his plan or alter it in some way because they have discovered some important flaw in it or alternatively want to him to help with something else. It would be a problem because, without meta knowledge, our new PC would have no emotional connection with Solas as the Inquisitor would, so I can see no reason why they would care about the fate of Solas personally, just how it impacts on their world.

It always seemed an odd choice to be asked to make at the end of Trespasser if there was going to be a new PC next game. It was even rather odd for the Inquisitor to be asked to make this choice because when a person has just told you they are going to destroy your world, why would you even be concerned with redeeming him unless you were totally besotted with him? But we are given the option of declaring your undying love for him.

When I got to that part of Trespasser as his friend, my only reaction was that I wanted to save/redeem the world. Yes, I thought he was making a terribly mistake but that was the important part, because of the implications for everyone else that I also knew and loved. Nor did it make matters any easier considering when I asked the most important question "why is it necessary?" he refused to answer me in case I did figure out a way to stop him. So my sentiments at that particular moment were not very kindly disposed towards Solas even though we had been good friends. Thus role playing my character I declared I was going to find a way to stop him. That was the heat of the moment reaction. It does seem hard though for a future PC to be bound by that decision or even my Inquisitor further down the line when they might have cause to reconsider how they felt about Solas back then.