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Post by nova on Aug 6, 2020 23:40:54 GMT
I agree that "Nightingale's Eyes" probably refers to Leliana's spies. (Or perhaps her ravens? A Dirthamen connection?) Further exploring the raven connection because I am intrigued. "When the world was new, Dirthamen gave one secret to each creature to keep." Dirthamen stored secrets within animals, but the creature he valued most was the bear because they were the only ones that didn't betray his secrets to anyone else. Considering Dirthamen eventually had two ravens bound to his service, it stands to reason he would also use them to store/gather secrets, possibly as his master spies. The ravens themselves are interesting to analyse because they happen to be wherever significant events take place. eg. there is a cutscene at the landsmeet to ravens on the roof, and there are also ravens hopping about the battlefield at Ostagar. A codex entry also states "watch for the crows for they have good sense for the blight". Then there are the ravens that hang around the wolf statues in the dales. Now if Leliana was dead in DAO, she turns into a flock of ravens in DAI and leaves behind this message: The lyrium sang thought into being. Now time is stale, and the melody is called elsewhere. Until I am needed. I am free.Assuming Nightingale's eyes are Leliana's ravens, the "we" are waiting for secrets to be spoken so they can be set free. We're waitingFor someone to speakAnd set us all free… free.This could actually tie back into the temple of Dirthamen quest because his followers were desperate enough to bind their high priest so he could not speak their secrets out loud: Our Highest One is bound. The secret that he keeps, he keeps with us The vigil that he keeps, he keeps with us His fear will not weaken us No-one shall come, dear mentor. In our eternity, only darkness reigns.
Assuming the Highest one learned a secret and feared keeping it hidden was a bad idea, it seems like the Highest one intended on using blood magic to unbind the followers at the temple so this secret could be spoken out loud. Solas says "the secrets at this temple have remained unspoken for too long..they wish to be known" at the temple, but unfortunately they are never revealed because the highest one's fear had turned to despair after the Inquisitor freed him from his prison. The secret itself must have been monumental though, considering how old it is and the lengths the followers went to to keep it hidden. Maybe the ravens are trying to uncover this secret for themselves now that they have no leader to guide them? With Leliana as the mediator. I realise this is quite a stretch but this is a thread for crazy theories...and I could get behind this one. Also, here's the kicker.In DAO, there was the Asunder quest which involved a very similar ritual to the one at the lost temple of Dirthamen. The limbs, mere meat. The torso, but a vessel. The head, all but unnecessary. The heart, separate, keeps life. The heart, safe from the blade, can be restored. The heart waits, in the Fade.
–Rough inscription, author unknown
Note the body parts in the Asunder quest relate to the body, while the body parts in Dirthamen's temple relate to the head. But the heart is still waiting in the fade. The scattered glyphs leading to Dirthamen's temple reveals this: The revealed symbols show two ravens. One grips a heart in its talons, the other a mirror.
And a note from the temple reveals this:“ Reveal the heart, unite it with the flame, together they will form the key to..liberation? Advancement? The translation is not clear. I also do not think this brazier is the flame it speaks of.” me rn: *snip* First off, I love all of this. Thank you for taking my stray thought and running with it. "The heart separate keeps life." Just to further cement the connection between the two rituals, when the Inquisitor picks up the severed body parts of Dirthamen's High Priest, they are still warm. Solas says that's because the High Priest is still alive. Ugh. "The limbs, mere meat." This puts how Solas describes dwarves to Varric in a whole different light: "Dwarves are the severed arm of a once mighty hero, lying in a pool of blood." So, hypothetically, if the ancient elves wanted to silence the Titans, but still keep them alive they would only need to control the Titan's heart? That would allow them to keep the blood/lyrium flowing. But, like Dirthamen's High Priest, the Titans are still alive and waiting for someone to free them from their binding. Yeah, there's something about Maryden. According to Cole, red templars "hear a different song. The song behind the door that old whispers want opened." This is consistent with the codex entry Whispers Written in Red Lyrium. We are here We have waited We have slept We are sundered We are crippled We are polluted We endure We wait We have found the dreams again We will awakenIt seems clear to me that the whispers in red lyrium found in the Fade refers to the Evanuris, imprisoned in pocket constructs behind sealed Eluvians (Cole's old whispers behind the door).
They are there They have waited
They have slept (uthenera) They are sundered (with a part of them stored in the great dragons beneath the Earth) They are crippled (becauseo of the sundering and the presence of the Veil) They are polluted (by the Blight) Yet they endure and wait They have found the dreams again (through the Breach?) They'll awaken
And woe unto the Dread Wolf when they are released.
That's why Solas was so upset by the Grey Wardens' plan of slaying the great dragons. At the end of Trespasser he claims he has a plan to deal with them... But only if he has time to set up his trap. Although personally I think his pride blinds him (again). He cannot hope to survive should he face them alone, even with the added power of Mythal, or Urthemiel, or whatever it is he absorbed when Flemmeth died.
Yes, I could see it being the Evanuris or the Forgotten Ones. However, Cole's comment was specifically about what red templars hear in contrast to regular templars. This makes me think that the whispers are coming from a corrupted Titan. Per Cole, templars "are heavy with forgotten songs, like Varric." So, templars tap into the same song dwarves do when they connect to the Stone/Titans: "They've been changed, and their bodies are incomplete now. The lyrium helps, but their bodies always want to connect to...something older, bigger than they are. That's why they block magic. They reach for that other thing and magic has no room to come in. Like when I listen to Varric. " But with red templars, "the red lyrium is different, darker. Daggers under the skin. It eats you inside until you are nothing. They hear a different song. The song behind the door that old whispers want opened." Solas' mural in the Deep Roads of Trespasser shows a Titan being sundered, they're crippled without their connection to the dwarves, their blood is polluted, and they also were re-awakened by the Breach. Although...maybe it's a bit of both? If the Evanuris did bind the Titans to themselves, would controlling the Titans' hearts give them the power to co-opt their lyrium song?
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Post by grallon on Aug 7, 2020 2:13:46 GMT
Yes, I could see it being the Evanuris or the Forgotten Ones. However, Cole's comment was specifically about what red templars hear in contrast to regular templars. This makes me think that the whispers are coming from a corrupted Titan. Per Cole, templars "are heavy with forgotten songs, like Varric." So, templars tap into the same song dwarves do when they connect to the Stone/Titans: "They've been changed, and their bodies are incomplete now. The lyrium helps, but their bodies always want to connect to...something older, bigger than they are. That's why they block magic. They reach for that other thing and magic has no room to come in. Like when I listen to Varric. " But with red templars, "the red lyrium is different, darker. Daggers under the skin. It eats you inside until you are nothing. They hear a different song. The song behind the door that old whispers want opened." Solas' mural in the Deep Roads of Trespasser shows a Titan being sundered, they're crippled without their connection to the dwarves, their blood is polluted, and they also were re-awakened by the Breach. Although...maybe it's a bit of both? If the Evanuris did bind the Titans to themselves, would controlling the Titans' hearts give them the power to co-opt their lyrium song?
Why would the Titans attempt to contact anyone but dwarves? Only a few Titans, and perhaps even only one or two, were corrupted. The rest are slumbering, comatose even; like the one we 'meet' in the Descent.
No, I think rather that the Evanuris learned how to use the Blight as the only available mean to reach out of their prison, since it was present both 'above' and 'below'. The Black City is full of it and that's where they are imprisoned. Why are the darkspawn trying incessantly to find and wake/corrupt the great dragons, if not to break the seals holding the gates of that place shut?
If the seven magisters led by Corypheus became this powerful after a only brief visit to Dark Arlathan - what do you think the Evanuris have become during their long exile? Stewing for several millenia in that corrupt cesspit? And them being immensely more dangerous than Tevinter mages to begin with?
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Post by nova on Aug 7, 2020 6:11:17 GMT
Why would the Titans attempt to contact anyone but dwarves? Only a few Titans, and perhaps even only one or two, were corrupted. The rest are slumbering, comatose even; like the one we 'meet' in the Descent.
No, I think rather that the Evanuris learned how to use the Blight as the only available mean to reach out of their prison, since it was present both 'above' and 'below'. The Black City is full of it and that's where they are imprisoned. Why are the darkspawn trying incessantly to find and wake/corrupt the great dragons, if not to break the seals holding the gates of that place shut? If the seven magisters led by Corypheus became this powerful after a only brief visit to Dark Arlathan - what do you think the Evanuris have become during their long exile? Stewing for several millenia in that corrupt cesspit? And them being immensely more dangerous than Tevinter mages to begin with?
Titans didn't contact the templars though; the templars "contacted" them by consuming tons of lyrium. They hear a song because of prolonged exposure. And it ultimately drives them all mad in the end. Or in the case of red lyrium, consumes them back from the inside out. (Unless they have the help of a friendly Forbidden One/"choice spirit" to "garden" them.) If the blight song and the red lyrium song were one in the same, then presumably Corypheus wouldn't have needed Bianca to seek him out and fill him in about red lyrium's existence in the first place.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 7, 2020 6:37:23 GMT
The whispers could really be referring to any number of groups- the titans, the evanuris, the old gods..the word "polluted" is important though because it means whoever they are, have been purposely corrupted by a third party. The evanurisWe know the evanuris were likely dabbling with red lyrium long before the veil. It's also implied Imshael and Mythal already know how to nullify red lyrium. Dagna even managed to make a rune that nullified Samson's armour. However red lyrium is not the blight, it is simply a carrier for it. In TN it is implied Ghilan'nain is using the power of the blight to direct the darkspawn to reopen her horror chambers in Horror of Hormak.
This to me implies the evanuris at least had some control over their use of red lyrium and in turn discovered/created(?) blight magic. The difference was though that their darkspawn were created. Perhaps the turning point for Solas in creating the veil was when he realised these created darkspawn could reproduce for themselves... The blight corrupts everything it touches. Those who believe themselves capable of using it safely are mad.Avernus also says this about the blight: Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power.It is possible the evanuris purposely corrupted themselves trying to combine both fade and blight magic together in an attempt to control an army of created darkspawn, and Solas realised the pandoras box that could open. The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation.To summarise though, it seems like many of the evanuris in fact have embraced blight magic. The titansThe titans may have been corrupted by the evanuris, however it's also possible that red lyrium may actually be natural part of a titan's ecosystem (ie. for darkness there has to be light). Each of us must face this, must carve the worst of ourselves away, but the Legion of the Dead bears a unique responsibility. Only the fully adorned of the Legion can face the gangue, can cut into darkness that afflicts the raw Stone. She encircles us, and we must protect her, here where darkness meets light.
It's possible the titans are "polluted" by the blight, however we know darkspawn also avoided the wellspring, meaning they somehow can't or won't enter the inner part of a titan. It's possible the darkness is overwhelming the titans due to not having workers to balance the darkness/light, however is pollution the right word to use if red lyrium is just a naturally occurring "waste rock", the by-product of a titan? The old godsI believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity.The old gods are a mystery because they have been silent since the first blight, so the line "we have found the dreams again" seems to fit here. Yavana says dragons "once ruled the skies" and that they were nearly "extinguished from the world". To me it's looking like the evanuris tried to dominate/subjugate these dragons and won, and it could be that the archdemons are linked to them and are the source of their power.
Perhaps the old gods were even already corrupted by the evanuris themselves (like Corypheus' replica red lyrium dragon). So perhaps the whispers in red lyrium are coming from the imprisoned evanuris impersonating the sleeping old god dragons... "Lusacan, the Dragon of Night, calls to you. He lives where it is darkest and waits for the day he will rise. Drink of his blood and know the power in darkness: either fear the Night or wield it."
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Post by telanadas on Aug 7, 2020 7:57:14 GMT
I find that to be ominous, especially considering that he’s using the Red Lyrium Idol - I almost wonder if he is using it to become powerful enough to destroy them, now that his orb is gone? This is a good point, although I'm still uncertain as to how he would use it. Perhaps the only option that remains is to nullify red lyrium with red lyrium, that is after all how Dagna was able to nullify Samson's armour. Blight magic is different from Fade magic and "it has power" even over demons. The longer we survive with the taint in our blood, the more potent it becomes.If the imprisoned false gods are corrupted (highly likely imo) then no doubt they are still extremely powerful, even if they have been imprisoned for so long. His true advantage is the red lyrium. It is corrupted by the Blight as he is, thus taps into its power twofold.With his orb Solas may have been able to counter the corruption with it alone because power would be balanced between fade/blight magic. Would his spirit/demon army even be that useful against the imprisoned evanuris considering the taint is alien to them? I doubt his petrification powers would work against blight magic too.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2020 9:38:42 GMT
"Lusacan, the Dragon of Night, calls to you. He lives where it is darkest and waits for the day he will rise. Drink of his blood and know the power in darkness: either fear the Night or wield it." To me these words were the clearest indication that Lusacan is behind the Blight being released on the world and ensuring the other gods are out of the way before him arising was deliberate. Darkness = Blight or blight magic. It is the power of the Void because it is made clear in Last Flight that the arch-demon is not drawing its power from there. The reason I also think he is in some way linked to Falon'Din is that death is often associated with darkness, they both had the same constellation, his "wings of death surround him thick as night" and the codex: "Falon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." Substitute darkness for night and that is saying he has no fear of the blight but if they are separate people then apparently Falon'Din has no fear of Lusacan but they may well be allies. However, there is one place we definitely know the People could not live and even sent Andruil crazy, the Void. So I think Falon'Din had no fear of the blight and used to walk in the Void. Of course, his apparent non-fear of the Void may simply have been his arrogance. His later blood thirsty rampage may have been the result of its adverse affect on him, just like Andruil but I don't think that was the case. Falon'Din was god of the dead. For him to have true followers things needed to die. The elves were immortal, so the only way he could get followers was to start wars, cause unfortunate accidents or inflict people with disease that killed them. In fact I'm more inclined to believe he was the ally of the Forgotten Ones rather than the Dread Wolf, considering the Dalish name them the gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence, all things contributing to people dying. I even had a theory that the mural showing Dirthamen (the bear) surrounding Ghilan'nain (white horned woman) is that it symbolised Dirthamen hiding away Ghilan'nain so no one could find her. Then Falon'Din hinted to Andruil that she had been carried off by the Forgotten Ones and that is why Andruil became obsessed with hunting them. Each time she went there she brought back plague that killed her people and went crazy herself. When Mythal stole her memories, she could not even remember why she had gone there in the first place, so people assumed it was just because she got bored hunting normal creatures. One final cheery thought, for hundreds of years the Mortalitassi have been laying their dead to rest in a giant necropolis, may be even longer if the practice was only re-introduced to Nevarra in the Glory Age but had gone on for thousands of years in the past. Who would be able to command the Army of the Dead by right? Falon'Din the God of the Dead.
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Post by ellehaym on Aug 7, 2020 13:32:52 GMT
Speaking of Darkness and Shadows there's this quote by Eleni Zonovia
Prior to Trespasser, I always thought that Falon'Din might make an appearance as the next antagonist. While I'm not so sure about that any more, I do think that him and Dirthamen might have been the ones to betray Mythal and Solas assuming they were working together. In Trespasser, we see Falon'Din and Dirthamen's mural alongside Mythal and Fen'Harel in the Sanctuary. Not sure why they'd ally with Falon'Din, so maybe it was Dirthamen they wanted, but you can't have one without the other. It might also explain why Flemythal has the backstabbed and bleeding statue of Dirthamen in the Fade because she has special hatred for him for telling the Evanuris her and Solas plans.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 7, 2020 14:46:10 GMT
Substitute darkness for night and that is saying he has no fear of the blight but if they are separate people then apparently Falon'Din has no fear of Lusacan but they may well be allies. However, there is one place we definitely know the People could not live and even sent Andruil crazy, the Void. So I think Falon'Din had no fear of the blight and used to walk in the Void. I agree- Falon'Din indeed sounds like a Forgotten one, and Lusacan and Falon'Din also seem eerily similar. Honestly the sound of an "endless night" sounds like an exciting premise for DA4 and it would be interesting to see dragon age's take on a walking dead army. Andruil and Falon'Din do share the symbol of the owl and apparently the owl said to Falon'Din "I am not cowed by darkness. Let me serve you who also has no fear of night.". I always thought they may have shared an alliance, perhaps initially starting off with good intentions (hunting the forgotten ones) but eventually turning to mastering blight magic as they became more corrupted by it. It would be interesting to see how Dirthamen/Ghilan'nain are tied into all of this though, because the drama surrounding the evanuris sounds very Bold and the Beautiful-esque (in a most intriguing way, lol). I really hope they expand on all this court intrigue. Also, if the elves knew the power of blight magic, no doubt there were many people trying to access the Void to gain even more power. I think the Anvil of the Void could also have links to elven magic/June, because as we know the evanuris experimented with creating new life forms. Caridin claims his idea for the anvil came from a vision from the ancestors but dwarves don't dream...so how did he receive this vision? Was it through lyrium whispers or something more like what happened with Dagna? It might also explain why Flemythal has the backstabbed and bleeding statue of Dirthamen in the Fade because she has special hatred for him for telling the Evanuris her and Solas plans. That backstabbed statue of Dirthamen is a mystery, but I get the feeling Dirthamen was the one who was betrayed, whether by Falon'Din or maybe even Solas himself (the eyes weeping waterfalls of blood says a lot). Solas does paint himself stabbing Mythal in the back in his own fresco so the fact that Dirthamen also has a sword in his back makes me wonder if Solas also took his power.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2020 15:15:24 GMT
Caridin claims his idea for the anvil came from a vision from the ancestors but dwarves don't dream...so how did he receive this vision? Remember also how there are golems in the ancient thaig? That was way before Caridin, so someone had been building golems before he did. It is also rather ominous it is called the Anvil of the Void but we know the process by which they created golems was horrific, so I'm pretty sure the idea came from someone associated with there. So may be Dirthamen came up with the concept and June worked out the practical aspects. Mind you everyone is going to be upset if that is another "the elves did it" thing. Was it through lyrium whispers or something more like what happened with Dagna? I suppose it could have been either. Dagna got her vision through handling bits of the Inquisitor, isn't that right? So may be Caridin handled bits of something or someone and the vision followed.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 7, 2020 15:32:08 GMT
Mind you everyone is going to be upset if that is another "the elves did it" thing. Considering the elves seem like the dominant empire of the time and we're revisiting ancient history I personally don't see the issue...it just makes sense. Also the dwarves seem to have a complex intertwining history with the elves so I wouldn't write off their mark in history just yet. Dagna got her vision through handling bits of the Inquisitor, isn't that right? So may be Caridin handled bits of something or someone and the vision followed. That does sound plausible!
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2020 17:57:11 GMT
By the way, when I first found this image on the web, it was just how I imagined the Old God Lusacan or Falon'Din might look when they arose.
"His wings of death surround him thick as night" as he hovers over the fires of chaos caused by lowering the Veil.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 7, 2020 19:43:07 GMT
It's either the Elves or the Dwarves at this point. . Unless the theory about the Qunari ends up being true.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Aug 7, 2020 21:35:55 GMT
By the way, when I first found this image on the web, it was just how I imagined the Old God Lusacan or Falon'Din might look when they arose.
"His wings of death surround him thick as night" as he hovers over the fires of chaos caused by lowering the Veil. "Mythal rallied the gods, once the shadow of Falon’Din’s hunger stretched across her own people." "Called ”Shadow" in the common parlance, the ancient Tevinter associated Lusacan with the constellation "Tenebrium" which depicts Lusacan's dragon form as an owl." "This lends credence to the widely-held belief that Tenebrium was a name meant to supplant an older, elven association—perhaps with the elven god Falon'Din, sometimes represented in tales as a giant owl." Item Description for Falon'din's Reach: This longbow is named after the Dalish god of the dead--Falon'Din. None can escape Falon'Din's Reach, when it is their time.Eleni: The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all...
I wonder if Lusacan is different than the rest - so extremely twisted in it's corruption that it is deadlier than the other Old Gods, and once released, will literally consume all under it's wings. Perhaps Eleni isn't referring to the Black City prison, but Lusacan's prison.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 8, 2020 7:22:31 GMT
Perhaps Eleni isn't referring to the Black City prison, but Lusacan's prison. Or maybe she's referring to Mythal's revenge on the evanuris. "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..."Mythal: I am but a shadow lingering in the sun.
Mythal says she wants a reckoning that will shake the very heavens. My current theory is that she/Solas intend on destroying the Black City once the veil is destroyed using Dumat's Folly as the catalyst. In TN the fake artifact draws magic into itself but the side effect is it explodes outwards with the built up energy. What if Solas stole the real Dumat's Folly so he could use it on a much larger scale (while also testing a small piece of it on the Darvaarad to see if it was a viable option) I'm sure not everything will go to plan though, going by all the foreshadowing of an endless night.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2020 8:30:19 GMT
Perhaps Eleni isn't referring to the Black City prison, but Lusacan's prison. Or maybe she's referring to Mythal's revenge on the evanuris. "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..."Mythal: I am but a shadow lingering in the sun.
Mythal says she wants a reckoning that will shake the very heavens. My current theory is that she/Solas intend on destroying the Black City once the veil is destroyed using Dumat's Folly as the catalyst. In TN the fake artifact draws magic into itself but the side effect is it explodes outwards with the built up energy. What if Solas stole the real Dumat's Folly so he could use it on a much larger scale (while also testing a small piece of it on the Darvaarad to see if it was a viable option) I'm sure not everything will go to plan though, going by all the foreshadowing of an endless night. I think that would be the first time someone has red hearinged a macguffin.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2020 10:14:44 GMT
The problem with this theory is the real Dumat's Folly had simply been discarded in the sewers under Minrathous. It is likely it wasn't anything that important anyway. Just some alleged artefact of the assault on the Black City. Except the author of the story has forgotten two important points. First, the Magister Sidereal didn't start from Minrathous or return there afterwards, unless Corypheus was kind enough to donate it to the Archon's collection. Hardly likely since the Archon was opposed to him. Secondly, according to Dorian, Tevinter has been in a state of denial they had anything to do with the release of the Blight, so why have an artefact on public display in the Archon's palace that directly contradicts this? Even if it was decided to display it as evidence that someone else had done this, why wasn't it displayed in the main religious building of the city, currently the domain of the Black Divine, and if I recall correctly, the re-purposed Temple of Dumat (I could be wrong about this). Where better to display Dumat's Folly?
In addition, the artefact ought to be riddled with the Blight if it were genuine, so it clearly isn't a piece of the Black City, just a fake made to look like it could have come from there.
Hence the agent of Solas simply discarding it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2020 10:27:04 GMT
What I find more interesting is what the Fake Dumat's Folly might have been. It sounds to me like another foci. Not one that was the orb of a god, as these are likely to be far more powerful, but a lesser one crafted to the same design. We know that Tevinter had these in ancient times because Dorian had seen pictures depicting the Dreamers using them and Solas suggested they were probably looted from the elves. So either his agents have uncovered some on these in the possession of leading Tevinter Altus or from somewhere that hadn't been looted by them. There was mention of them being used in the past in the Frostback Basin by the priesthood of Razikale, so may be they found them there.
Essentially the item drew magical energy into itself. Isn't that what Solas' orb did? In fact that is what our anchor seemed to be doing at the end, which is why we had to keep discharging it or risk it making a bigger bang and harming others near us. The item in the story seemed to have an on/off switch to stop it absorbing energy until you wanted it to. Then his agent switched it on and left it running.
So I would imagine another foci of this sort, or several, would be more effective in destroying something unwanted.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2020 10:50:21 GMT
Perhaps Eleni isn't referring to the Black City prison, but Lusacan's prison.
Well if she is referring to the past, then it could be regarding the opening of the Black City and release of the Blight on the world. Darkness always follows the horde. It isn't just Solas who has questioned whether killing the last of the Old Gods is a good thing and instead of stopping the Blights, it results in an endless Blight because there is nothing to keep the darkspawn underground.
However, it could be referring to a future event. Morrigan says something similar in the 2013 Trailer for DAI.
"Darkness closes in. Will you stand against it, or lead this world to its bitter end?"
One thing that was not a feature of Corypheus and his army was darkness. Certainly not the deep, encompassing darkness that is associated with the darkspawn horde. Then again, he didn't bother using darkspawn at all, which is curious because of course they should have been swarming out of the Deep Roads in response to his false Calling.
Now Leliana's vision was of a true Blight and she has been involved with events ever since, either directly or training up her successors to stand against Solas. So may be Eleni was making a prediction of what will happen when Solas breaches his own prison.
In the 2013 trailer for DAI there were some specific images:
"Faith lies in ashes." (Faith was undermined a little but the Herald rallied the faithful and ultimately the Chantry survived pretty much as strong as ever) "Fragile alliances crumble to dust as this world is torn asunder." (The alliances surely grew stronger in DAI as a result of the Breach?) The assault on this fortress is not from earthbound human catapults but meteors from the sky. Hence Morrigan saying "None shall be untouched by the fires above". Then the sky tears open, from horizon to horizon, and the dragon comes out of the Fade. (We got a hole in the sky, nothing more) Then the final image of Morrigan making that challenge. (Where was the darkness we were standing against? Corypheus? Well he had inner darkness but, no, not him)
We have not yet seen any of this. I would say what we were standing against in DAI was chaos rather than darkness. DG said only half the story had been told that was originally intended for DAI and of course they may have ditched it altogether and come up with some completely different concept but I have to admit that this trailer gave me goose bumps and a chill running up my spine. I've been hoping ever since that DA4 will finally deliver on this promise. If they do, then it would appear that Solas does go through with his ritual, or someone else does if he decides against it.
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Post by Gludipow on Aug 8, 2020 22:15:58 GMT
Now, people think this may be because Ghil and Solas may have been friends. But what if Solas, instead, was her servant or slave?
I'd still like to know why he was always seen as a wolf even before his rebellion. Then after his rebellion why are all those statues still left around as giant advertisements for his cause? So it seems likely he was always known as the Wolf and depicted as such but it was only later that he was known as the Dread Wolf, the appearance of which is very different from that of an ordinary wolf.
I've said elsewhere that all the pictures of him in his sanctuary show him with his face concealed by a wolf mask, so may be that is how he always appeared, never allowing anyone to see his true face. Which is why he is always depicted as a wolf, even in mosaics of his own side in his sanctuary but also elsewhere where there are mosaics of the gods and he alone is depicted in animal form.
The fact that he is shown alongside the other gods, suggests he was always accorded a degree of respect by the Evanuris and regarded as one of their own (as the Dalish legends say). I doubt he would have been given such prominence if he was a mere slave or servant of anyone, so even if he began that way, he had risen in the hierarchy long before he rebelled. Why did he need to deny his godhood if he wasn't generally seen as a deity? Sorry it took so long to reply, I have been busy of late. In Trespasser it is actually hinted multiple times that Solas was, at one time, subservient. Even if just to Mythal as an attendant and guardian. If Solas began as a slave, there are a lot of pointers toward Ghilan'nain in some way or another. The easiest and most common theory is Mythal. But I'm not convinced for character psychology reasons. And also, if you look at his staff in his tarot card, it is the head of a Halla. That is a lot of Halla and Hart Ghilan'nain symbolism to the point it can't be coincidence. Which, if Solas went from being a slave to the Evanuris who were worshiped as gods, and was being placed on the same pedestal after everything he had witnessed of them, it would make sense he wouldn't want to be placed in the same box. If he experienced the worst that slavery in Elvhenan offered, his hatred of slavery also would make sense. If a system doesn't effect you, or doesn't effect you terribly, it is easy to overlook or dismiss as normality. Solas beginning as a slave and rising in power through the guidance and support of Mythal makes sense. Not just for his stance of being anti-slavery, but his attitude toward Mythal.
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Post by grallon on Aug 9, 2020 0:57:00 GMT
... Solas beginning as a slave and rising in power through the guidance and support of Mythal makes sense. Not just for his stance of being anti-slavery, but his attitude toward Mythal.
I always pictured Solas to have been a clever and gifted servant. Perhaps of Ghilan'nain first; her predilection for animals and his chosen avatar could indicate as much. However it seems clear that he was noticed by Mythal at some point, since he ended up her servant/ally/protector.
I think he may have acted as something like a 'spy' or infiltrator for the Evanuris (a wolf is a predator after all), during their war(s?) with the Forgotten Ones (which are more than likely to have been an opposing faction vying for control of Elvhenan). His help in their defeat may have been his ticket to ascension, being 'sponsored' by both his patrons, Ghilan'nain and Mythal. Elgar'nan and the others may have decided then that it was better to co-opt him into their ranks rather than risk seeing such an effective assassin(?) turn against them.
Or, could he have been one of the Forgotten Ones himself, who turned/was enticed when he saw the war wasn't going well, and was then admitted within the 'ruling caste' of the New Order? There are certainly plenty of RL examples of that in our own world. This could also explain why he was counted as kin by both groups. But regardless, he ended up opposing the Evanuris.
What is interesting is that it was Mythal they struck down, rather than him, or both of them, even though by that point he appeared to have been known as a steadfast ally of hers. Was he deemed inconsequential without his patron? Or did he play the elvhen version of the Great Game with such skill that he diffused whatever suspicions his associates may have had? Could that explain the 'rash' decision to raise the Veil? Guilt, born of what his actions or inaction allowed to happen?
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Post by telanadas on Aug 9, 2020 5:51:43 GMT
We have not yet seen any of this. I would say what we were standing against in DAI was chaos rather than darkness. DG said only half the story had been told that was originally intended for DAI and of course they may have ditched it altogether and come up with some completely different concept but I have to admit that this trailer gave me goose bumps and a chill running up my spine. I've been hoping ever since that DA4 will finally deliver on this promise. If they do, then it would appear that Solas does go through with his ritual, or someone else does if he decides against it. The trailer does make it seem like there was supposed to be more to DAI. Did they just get carried away with the side quests or developing Solas' arc? The tear in the sky in the trailer looks a lot like the veil coming down...and we certainly haven't led the world to its bitter end yet. Actually I don't think DAI ever highlighted "darkness closing in". Maybe they will start the game with the veil destroyed after all.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 9, 2020 6:29:43 GMT
Ghilan'nain was supposedly the youngest of the gods so I doubt Solas was her slave.
The harts and halla are interesting to analyse though because they do seem to be revered in the Temple of Mythal. My theory was that Ghilan'nain was made a god so they could use her creatures and materials in the endless war against the forgotten ones. I think Solas and Ghilan'nain likely worked together, Ghilan'nain making the creatures and the weapons/armour, while Solas was the one leading the battles or strategising the warfare. It would explain why Solas stopped her from killing her sea creatures, because they were "well wrought" and not "untamed", meaning they could be used as an asset (in a war).
The elves do like gold and they use it to impress and intimidate people, so it is possible Ghilan'nain created the golden halla as a symbol of the elven empire, a mount for the first riders into battle.
I do still find Solas' godhood strange though for a number of reasons. - He is only ever depicted as a wolf, not an elf - He has two different statues depicting him, a howling wolf and a reclining wolf, both of which are within the Temple of Mythal - He is always depicted guarding, never worshipped in his own right
If Solas is known for being a master manipulator, why make him a god? To be a god came with divine rights and powers.
Perhaps Solas was a spy, in the sense that he could take on multiple different forms. So the title "Fen'harel" does fit in this case, because shifting forms seems to have been his craft.
Maybe he operated the same way with the evanuris as he did in the Inquisition, and manipulated his way to the top because he knew much about the people and spirits. Then when they realised he was working against them by freeing their slaves, released all the propaganda against him.
Striking Mythal down would have been symbolic if anything, because she was considered the "Mother" and deliverer of justice. The death of Mythal might have meant a new world order where anything goes.
Solas does say he is his own agent too. Perhaps he was once Mythal's servant or champion, and she allowed him his freedom to lead the slave rebellion. His relationship with her does seem familial to me. I'm pretty sure there will be a cost to him absorbing Mythal's power though, since Flemeth believes in 'earning what you take'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2020 9:16:02 GMT
think he may have acted as something like a 'spy' or infiltrator for the Evanuris
I've previously stated on the Solas thread that I think the fact he is shown on Mythal's left is that he was the equivalent of the "left hand of the Divine", someone who worked behind the scenes, spying on others, subtly influencing them but more importantly carrying out activities that Mythal could not be seen to directly be involved with herself. This would actually fit with Mythal being secretly behind the rebellion but the Dread Wolf being the face of it, with Mythal claiming to the others that he was a threat to her as well. Once they discovered the truth, that might have been enough for them to collectively act against her.
It doesn't explain why he is shown in mosaics as being part of the pantheon. Also, if Felassan is to be believed, the nobility did look to him for "dark wisdom" to resolve problems they were having that other gods weren't prepared to help with. So may be he started off as Mythal's spy master among the gods but also went freelance with regarded to the lesser elves. It would explain why he never wanted anyone to see his true face and always went masked. The choice of a wolf may have been because of how he viewed them:
"I know that they are intelligent, practical creatures that small-minded fools think of as terrible beasts."
That would fit with his general attitude with how he saw himself in relation to the majority of others. Then when he did start working openly against the gods, he was no longer just "the Wolf" but the "Dread Wolf".
It may not be significant but it is curious that in Tevinter Nights the Executor refers to him as "the Wolf" and he regards them as dangerous and wouldn't let the Executor impart what they knew about him, so it is possibly they know about his origins before he became the Dread Wolf. Incidentally I think the reason he calls the gods, the Evanuris, is because that was originally their title before they assumed the role of gods. I think Evanuris simply means leaders because the leader of the Emerald Knights in the Dales had a sword called Evanura. Either that or they saw themselves as "Evanaris" instead of simply evanuris. Yet it seems strange that the Dalish remember them as the Creators, when there is nothing negative in their eyes in the terms evanuris. Then they have the alternative set of gods known as the Forgotten Ones, that Solas has conveniently not mentioned at all. So is Evanuris a blanket term for all of the gods? After all he is said to have shut away both Creators and Forgotten Ones, apparently betraying both sides in the process, so since he admits to shutting away the Evanuris, does the term apply to both groups?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2020 10:37:44 GMT
An extra not very important little theory concerning animals associated with the various gods. May be they were originally symbols associated with their leadership in the original war, like those found on coats of arms or flags, or the eagle totems of the Roman legions. So each was held aloft as a rallying point for their respective followers in the army.
Mythal: Dragon Dirthamen: Bear Falon'Din: Owl Andruil: Hare/Owl/3 Trees (Morrigan says hare and she likely got that from Flemeth but Owl would make more sense as the hunter. However, in the riddle in the Darvarad the owl saw the hunter, so was not the hunter. May be not an animal at all but her Way of 3 Trees.)
That leaves Sylaise, June and Elgar'nan without. So may be their totem wasn't an animal either:
Sylaiase: Flamming orb (like Toth's constellation). June: Anvil or some sort of weapon - since he is credited with crafting them. Elgar'nan: Sun or a lightning bolt
Then of course later came:
Fen'Harel: A wolf Ghilan'nain: A halla
I would also add that since Dalish creation myth credits Elgar'nan and Mythal as being the First of the People to arise, it makes sense that if Mythal was so closely associated with dragons, she would be the one who decided who was permitted to take that form and why she did not look favourably on the sinner who dared to use that form without her permission. It is quite possible that the form that both Elgar'nan and she took originally was not that of an elf but a dragon. As Mythal was said to have arisen from the sea, may be she was originally a Cetus or sea dragon.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Aug 9, 2020 14:58:17 GMT
I'm so fascinated by these animals, because I think they inform quite a lot. I mentioned earlier in this thread (or possibly the TN thread), but there's a running theme of emphasis on the senses, specifically sight (blindness i.e. Ghilin'nain's origin story, Kolg from Descent and hearing ("song" of lyrium/red lyrium.) When looking at Andruil's animals, The Hare and The Owl, both of those animals have a specific heightened sense - Hares have highly developed hearing while Owls can see well in the dark. Andruil assumingly used her Hares to help find specific "Songs" - like that of Red Lyrium, or of a Titan, or of the Sun. The Owl was probably used to navigate "The Darkness" and send messages to Falon'Din, as he supposedly lived where The People could not. As far as the Bear goes... I"m not sure how Bears connect with Dirthamen's role as Keeper of Secrets. Maybe they were too damn powerful to kill even back in ancient days.
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