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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2020 20:13:40 GMT
He respected Andraste and viewed her as an ally, hell maybe the two were even lovers. Please that was a ridiculous salacious idea that PW included in Masked Empire as part of an allegorical play criticising the Empress Celene. For some reason it is okay in Orlais to suggest this about their holy prophet who after all was meant to be Bride of the Maker. So they are suggesting that she not only cheated on her husband with the Maker but Shartan too? It is a measure of how little they respect the memory of Andraste that they would do such a thing as part of a piece of political propaganda. As for Shartan, there is nothing in the elven oral tradition, as found in the Canticle of Shartan or among the lore of the Dalish that even hints at this. In fact Gisharel states that Andraste called Shartan "brother". That is the nature of their relationship.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2020 20:24:21 GMT
But then Andraste is both a fierce warrior, but not fit enough to have children despite having 3 daughters. She was initially thought unable to have children, which is why Maferath took a concubine and had 3 sons by her that were then regarded as the adopted sons of Andraste. Then Andraste proved able to have children and had 2 daughters, one of who died before Andraste and the other fled into obscurity with her Tevinter mage lover. Mind you, if you go by the time line in WoT then it is hard to see how all this can be fitted in to the history shown there. In the timeline she marries Maferath in -187 and then starts her campaign against Tevinter in -180 with the Battle of Valarian Fields occurring in -171, which would mean her younger daughter would still only have been around 13-14 if she fled with her lover after the Valarian Fields rather than at the beginning of the campaign, as the codices suggest, when she would only be 4-5. To be honest, whoever writes the entries just doesn't bother checking that dates and other info work. I also think they go a bit far with the alternative versions of history as well, particularly as no one in world seems the slightest bit bothered with the discrepancies.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2020 20:39:10 GMT
How does saying the elves probably worshipped the Maker right after Andraste's crusade somehow leads to "justifying Orlais robbing the elves of the Dales"? I didn't say this. I said not helping in the 2nd Blight didn't justify robbing the elves of the Dales. Orlais only helps other countries if they think they are going to get something out of it and very often annex them into the empire after saving them. They didn't bother helping in the 4th Blight because they were unaffected and clearly couldn't see any benefit to themselves in helping others. Montsimmard and surrounding lands are at the eastern border of the Dales. And I don't think there was any Wardens among the Dalish as they were rejecting anyone from entering the Dales at the time and there was no treaties back then (the DAO treaties were signed during the 4th Blight, at last the Orzammar one was). I can't find a single lore/codex mention or references of the Darkspawns making it to the Dales in the 2nd Blight... How do you know they rejected the Wardens from entering their land in the 2nd Blight? Plus saying the treaties with the Dalish were signed in the 4th Blight makes no sense. The 4th Blight never came as far south as Ferelden, which is where the majority of Dalish clans were situated. If they signed treaties with individual Dalish clans in the Freemarches, why would the other clans feel beholden to honour them? It makes more sense to me that it was something drawn up with the elves when the Dales were a proper nation and so the Dalish as a whole would feel bound by them. This comment also applies to the other treaties. Why did the Wardens leave it until the 4th Blight to have treaties with Orzammar? Ditto the Circle of Magi which had been around from the time of the 2nd Blight. Surely it made more sense that the Wardens would have first had treaties with these groups at the beginning of the next full Blight (the 2nd) after the Wardens had been formed? If they didn't do this in the 2nd Blight, why did they miss out the 3rd as well? Both these Blights lasted way longer than the 4th Blight. Strangely enough the Last Flight makes no mention of Warden treaties with any of these groups, although individual Dalish did join the Wardens. In the book the groups that Garahel draws from are all those who are from the fringes of society, like escaped Tevinter slaves, casteless dwarves and apostate mages.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2020 20:49:27 GMT
For those who are interested, it just says this: "At the Battle of Valerian Fields, the elven slave Shartan takes Maferath's side and leads other elves in the fight against the Tevinter Imperium. He later converts and is made a disciple, only to have his writings suppressed following the Exalted march on the Dales." -171 Ancient As we are frequently told WoT is apparently the work of an in world scholar and in the addendum to WoT2 correcting some of its mistakes, Genetivi claims to know the scholar in question, suggesting it is the work of a Chantry scholar, so it is hardly surprising they present Shartan as a disciple of Andraste in the timeline. This is also said about him in Masked Empire, when he is shown in a work by a famous artist of Andraste and her followers, but with his ears docked. Both the elven oral tradition as contained in the Canticle of Shartan and lore of the Dalish seem to suggest that he was an ally but not a disciple. This would also seem confirmed by the shade in the Gauntlet who merely says that "the enemy of my enemy was my friend", which again suggests an ally, not a disciple. Gisharel does say Andraste called Shartan brother, which you could argue meant brother disciple but I think that is a stretch.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 4, 2020 20:55:12 GMT
He respected Andraste and viewed her as an ally, hell maybe the two were even lovers. Please that was a ridiculous salacious idea that PW included in Masked Empire as part of an allegorical play criticizing the Empress Celene. For some reason it is okay in Orlais to suggest this about their holy prophet who after all was meant to be Bride of the Maker. So they are suggesting that she not only cheated on her husband with the Maker but Shartan too? It is a measure of how little they respect the memory of Andraste that they would do such a thing as part of a piece of political propaganda. As for Shartan, there is nothing in the elven oral tradition, as found in the Canticle of Shartan or among the lore of the Dalish that even hints at this. In fact Gisharel states that Andraste called Shartan "brother". That is the nature of their relationship. True enough. I myself I am of the opinion that the two were mainly just close allies. Friends at most. But I've seen the possibility thrown out by others before. But yeah Orlais isn't above shaming anything. They pretty much made one of their Divines (Rosamund) the subject of several erotic works of literature just because she looked young and pretty. Which is to say nothing about how they portray the Inquisitor to be a lustful fool if they romance and are then betrayed by Iron Bull. It seems right up Orlais's alley though: making up raunchy scandals.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2020 21:09:51 GMT
Apparently what I am about to say might be wrong so I'll be brief...but I was under the impression that the 'Alliance' that Ameridan was talking about was the one between the Dales and the rest of Thedas when it came to fighting the Blights. Mind you even if the below post is correct this is still the most likely thing because I do remember eeading that this is one of the reasons why Orlais was annoyed at the Elves. I do think it makes more sense for the treaties to have been around from the 2nd Blight but if so they were between the Grey Wardens and the Dales, not Drakon and the Dales. As I've previously stated, I think the reason the elves were watching as Montsimmard was sacked by darkspawn is because they had intended helping but got there too late. Since the darkspawn had moved that far east, it is understandable that the Emerald Knights would want to stay defending their own land from further incursion along the Imperial Highway rather than marching off to help Drakon further north. Of course, Ameridan did apparently help because by neutralising the threat from the Avvar, freed up Drakon and his army to do other things, something the Orlesians conveniently forgot along with the fact that Ameridan was an elf. What I also find odd is that the writing completely ignores the fact that in order to get to Orlais the Avvar would either have had to invade the Dales first or Ferelden and then still get through the northern Dales. Even if the dragon could fly over and miss them, the rest of the barbarians couldn't. So Ameridan was protecting his own people from the threat as much as Orlais. Plus, if the leaders in Halamshiral knew anything about his mission, then they would feel the need to keep their forces at home because of the threat from the barbarians. This would still be helping Drakon as preventing the barbarian advance on the Dales would mean they never got to Orlais. So in fact the Dalish leaders had a double reason not to send a large contingent of fighting elves to join Drakon when they had a potential double threat from darkspawn and Avvar barbarians at home and if they failed to stop them there, that would impact badly on Orlais. Yet, the writers either never considered or decided to ignore it as it didn't play into the narrative they were trying to tell which was that the Dalish had only themselves to blame for Orlais hating them because they didn't help Drakon with the Blight.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 4, 2020 21:26:24 GMT
Apparently what I am about to say might be wrong so I'll be brief...but I was under the impression that the 'Alliance' that Ameridan was talking about was the one between the Dales and the rest of Thedas when it came to fighting the Blights. Mind you even if the below post is correct this is still the most likely thing because I do remember eeading that this is one of the reasons why Orlais was annoyed at the Elves. I do think it makes more sense for the treaties to have been around from the 2nd Blight but if so they were between the Grey Wardens and the Dales, not Drakon and the Dales. As I've previously stated, I think the reason the elves were watching as Montsimmard was sacked by darkspawn is because they had intended helping but got there too late. Since the darkspawn had moved that far east, it is understandable that the Emerald Knights would want to stay defending their own land from further incursion along the Imperial Highway rather than marching off to help Drakon further north. Of course, Ameridan did apparently help because by neutralising the threat from the Avvar, freed up Drakon and his army to do other things, something the Orlesians conveniently forgot along with the fact that Ameridan was an elf. What I also find odd is that the writing completely ignores the fact that in order to get to Orlais the Avvar would either have had to invade the Dales first or Ferelden and then still get through the northern Dales. Even if the dragon could fly over and miss them, the rest of the barbarians couldn't. So Ameridan was protecting his own people from the threat as much as Orlais. Plus, if the leaders in Halamshiral knew anything about his mission, then they would feel the need to keep their forces at home because of the threat from the barbarians. This would still be helping Drakon as preventing the barbarian advance on the Dales would mean they never got to Orlais. So in fact the Dalish leaders had a double reason not to send a large contingent of fighting elves to join Drakon when they had a potential double threat from darkspawn and Avvar barbarians at home and if they failed to stop them there, that would impact badly on Orlais. Yet, the writers either never considered or decided to ignore it as it didn't play into the narrative they were trying to tell which was that the Dalish had only themselves to blame for Orlais hating them because they didn't help Drakon with the Blight. Well still if the treaties *were* a thing back then, one way or another, then it implies that it was with all of Thedas. All of Thedas was compelled to help the Wardens in a time of Blight, that is how I understand the basic needs of the treaty and if the Elves ignored it for their own reasons then that would be a reason for people to rather be cross with them. Of course the rest of what you say is perfectly valid and an interesting way of looking into that. But yet there is the insinuation again that the writers are having some kind of pro Orlais bias which is just a bit on the suspect side, or at least the evidence does not match that. Because, again, we are looking at this through the lense of ancient history here. And given the circumstances of what was lost to time and likely in the scuffle...what would Orlais have cared about the Dalish defending themselves? What would their leadership care? Even if the mission was known and the threat to the Dalish was understood from their perspective it would've looked like they had abandoned your duty. You and I know the truth but its unlikely the common Orlesian citizen would have. They would have just seen the Elves standing by and watching as their cities burned, and they would've demanded 'justice'. Then add what happened to Red Crossing onto the fire and here we are.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 4, 2020 23:22:53 GMT
Honestly, it's ridiculous that Ameridan and Drakon were ever even friends. Does the game explain how they even met? 1) I mean I am friends/ friendly/ or at least civil with plenty of people who I find ideologically detestable. Of course there were, and I'd say most of these were kinda abusive. It's not about them existing, it is about how they are treated/presented. 2) Meaning? These are men and women who spend a significant amount of time together and given both the training regime of the Templars and the nature of the Circles this tends to happen from a very young age. So they spend most of their lives growing up with one another and their could be loads of ways such relationships could result, the scandal of rebellion, adolescent crushes, or stuff of respect and admiration. And sure most of these relationships were probably abusive in one way or another...after all those in the Chantry would have little interest in having the jailers develop with the jailed (one of the principle problems with the Circles tbh). But I am also unsurprised that these relationships did happen. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that some of them were genuine. To assume all Chantry officers or Templars or Seekers are bigoted monsters is itself a bigoted position given we have evidence to the contrary staring us in the face. And since we have a wide variety of perspectives on Circle life from actual mages to, everything from Adrianne and Anders to Vivienne, it further complicates the narrative. 1) Unless they dislike the premise behind a game you enjoy... like Greedfall?
2) Uhm, which narrative? I wasn't exclusively talking about mage/templar relations here, but since we are at it... these are unsettling due to the inherent llife-or-death power disparaty and the common. dehumanisation of mages. As of now, some five mage/templar relations come to my mind, and I don't like four of these much. First we have Wynne, who had a child with a templar, and the guy apparently ranted at her for giving up her kid to secure her position in the circle system. Did the dude missed that the kid would have taken from her anyway because that's what the circles do? In Dawn of the Seeker, Cassandra seems to regularly threaten Regalyan and just adresses him as "mage", and he's apparently into that. I'd be scared shitless in such a situation. Rhys really has boner for Evangeline, who seems to start out as a pretty standard abrasive self-righteous templar, despite knowing that she's around to kill them all if they learn too much if I recall right. Then there's Cullen. Says he left that life behind, still wears templar bracers (amusing but minor), insists on still being a templar-style control freak, thinks Meredith kept people safe ( ) and pulls "mages (or Dalish) are shit but you are different" stuff, besides dancing around some pivotal questions (his possible reaction to Trev-ellan getting possessed). It also comes across a bit as if Trev-ellan is framed as being sorry for their magic. Number five is Enchanter Ellandra from the Hinterlands. Can't say much about her, though I wonder what they had to do to keep their relationship secret from years.
As for other examples, Brialene (yes, there's a ship for that) was already mentioned and pessimistpanda listed the issues with it, plus that Celene tried to kill Briala personally in the end. Yet, DAI totally glosses over this, going as far as framing the alienage massacre in a way that it could be interpreted as Briala's fault. So are we supposed to take this kind of relation as positive and encourage it because Celene is apparently pretty... possessive and kept a locket? Again, it is not about such relations existing, it is about framing them as somehow romantic or something. Stockholm is shit.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 4, 2020 23:52:40 GMT
1) I mean I am friends/ friendly/ or at least civil with plenty of people who I find ideologically detestable. 2) Meaning? These are men and women who spend a significant amount of time together and given both the training regime of the Templars and the nature of the Circles this tends to happen from a very young age. So they spend most of their lives growing up with one another and their could be loads of ways such relationships could result, the scandal of rebellion, adolescent crushes, or stuff of respect and admiration. And sure most of these relationships were probably abusive in one way or another...after all those in the Chantry would have little interest in having the jailers develop with the jailed (one of the principle problems with the Circles tbh). But I am also unsurprised that these relationships did happen. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that some of them were genuine. To assume all Chantry officers or Templars or Seekers are bigoted monsters is itself a bigoted position given we have evidence to the contrary staring us in the face. And since we have a wide variety of perspectives on Circle life from actual mages to, everything from Adrianne and Anders to Vivienne, it further complicates the narrative. 1) Unless they dislike the premise behind a game you enjoy... like Greedfall?
2) Uhm, which narrative? I wasn't exclusively talking about mage/templar relations here, but since we are at it... these are unsettling due to the inherent llife-or-death power disparaty and the common. dehumanisation of mages. As of now, some five mage/templar relations come to my mind, and I don't like four of these much. First we have Wynne, who had a child with a templar, and the guy apparently ranted at her for giving up her kid to secure her position in the circle system. Did the dude missed that the kid would have taken from her anyway because that's what the circles do? In Dawn of the Seeker, Cassandra seems to regularly threaten Regalyan and just adresses him as "mage", and he's apparently into that. I'd be scared shitless in such a situation. Rhys really has boner for Evangeline, who seems to start out as a pretty standard abrasive self-righteous templar, despite knowing that she's around to kill them all if they learn too much if I recall right. Then there's Cullen. Says he left that life behind, still wears templar bracers (amusing but minor), insists on still being a templar-style control freak, thinks Meredith kept people safe ( ) and pulls "mages (or Dalish) are shit but you are different" stuff, besides dancing around some pivotal questions (his possible reaction to Trev-ellan getting possessed). It also comes across a bit as if Trev-ellan is framed as being sorry for their magic. Number five is Enchanter Ellandra from the Hinterlands. Can't say much about her, though I wonder what they had to do to keep their relationship secret from years.
As for other examples, Brialene (yes, there's a ship for that) was already mentioned and pessimistpanda listed the issues with it, plus that Celene tried to kill Briala personally in the end. Yet, DAI totally glosses over this, going as far as framing the alienage massacre in a way that it could be interpreted as Briala's fault. So are we supposed to take this kind of relation as positive and encourage it because Celene is apparently pretty... possessive and kept a locket? Again, it is not about such relations existing, it is about framing them as somehow romantic or something. Stockholm is shit. Huh? I can have friendly conversations over games I like as much as the next guy but in that specific instance you did misconstrue my statement on Greedfall as the game was somehow pro colonialism or even a 'colonial' simulator. I, having played Greedfall..object to that characterization. And well your post does ignore two prominent facts: 1. In regards to the romance between Evangeline and Rhys yes Evangeline did have the normal Templar biases about such things and on Rhys's side it was probably just an adolescent crush but then she also expressed skepticism and discomfort over some Templar practices (namely their use of phylactories being 'like blood magic') and also objected to Seeker Lambert's more extreme measures...as well as having a soft spot for Cole. Over the course of the narrative and being exposed to Rhys more and the abuses of the Templars she left the order and started a romantic relationship. Actually since this is the third time that this sort of thing has come up in a conversation just today I am starting to wonder if this is another theme of Dragon Age. Learning to see certain groups not by their group biases but as individuas when being exposed to the individualism. 2. Meredith's case is a little more...complicated given that she kind of suffers from a little bit of a Corypheus situation in their is the monster we see on screen but some of the lore points to her being just a normal Templar until she went mad after being exposed to the idol. Of course this is not again to excuse her actions merely to add context to Cullen's statement about her 'protecting' people. And I do believe in that very same conversation on Kirkwall Cullen expressed regret about 'not seeing her for who she was sooner' and for not acting against her sooner and remooving her from power...as was his his legal power in the Templars if memory serves correctly. Regardless though Cullen is actually one of the most fascinating characters for me because...well I did not especially like him in the first two games but he has kind of been in a extremist yo yo game. He saw extreme evil that mages are indeed capable of in Origins and this made him very anti mage but then saw the evil the Templars could be in 2 which moderated his influence...and indeed his exposure to good mages probably helped. Though I have no idea what youa re talking about regarding his comments on a possessed Trev. As far as Cass is concerned now I have not actually watched DoS so I am not entirely sure of the specifics but...again ...seems whatever her feelings towards magic overall she really did end up caring for Regie there so much so that she does not exhibit any signs of overt bias by the time Inquisition rolls along, capable of loving anyone who is a mage and also her Divineship is a lot more pro mage and reform oriented then even Vivienne's. And yes the Celene stuff is kinda sus as hell but given how much human attraction and 'love' is a complicated emotion and its hard to stop loving people...or being attracted to them...it kind of can make some sense that they would still pine for the memories they shared and wish things were different. And I am very curious about where you get the idea that DAI does anything of the kind considering my 7 times playing the game I never got that idea. Yes it might 'gloss over' the massacre but...well all I can say is it glosses it over. . It really does not come up.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 5, 2020 1:34:25 GMT
Well at that particular time the Dalish weren't oppressed by Drakon or Orlais. Yes, they might've been weary of Drakon and thinking he was the next Tevinter but he was also a little busy in his own neck of the woods. And considering I am an educated, intelligent, adult my reading of history matches what BioWare is trying to do...Stockholm syndome is a thing and its also clear that life is very complicated and that these things do actually happen...but to go through with it. I find that perfectly natural that such relationships would exist, sure that is skeevy but love is a complicated emotion, and how is this bullcrap? What people can't be friends? Well it's easy to be friends with the "ideologically detestable" when *your* life, rights, freedoms, etc etc are not in any actual danger. And, actually, as far as science and medicine are concerned, Stockholm Syndrome is *not* a thing. It has never been included in the DSM, because nobody is researching it. And really, ask yourself, would YOU marry, have sex with or even befriend someone who killed your parents? Or burned down a ghetto with all your people trapped inside? Or someone whose JOB it was to keep you locked up, who fervently believed that you were evil because of the way you were born? What about someone who even knocked you unconcious and then left you in a cell without food and water for DAYS, to the point you nearly died of dehydration (like Evangeline did to Rhys in Asunder)? Probably not, right?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 5, 2020 1:35:38 GMT
He respected Andraste and viewed her as an ally, hell maybe the two were even lovers. Please that was a ridiculous salacious idea that PW included in Masked Empire as part of an allegorical play criticising the Empress Celene. For some reason it is okay in Orlais to suggest this about their holy prophet who after all was meant to be Bride of the Maker. So they are suggesting that she not only cheated on her husband with the Maker but Shartan too? It is a measure of how little they respect the memory of Andraste that they would do such a thing as part of a piece of political propaganda. As for Shartan, there is nothing in the elven oral tradition, as found in the Canticle of Shartan or among the lore of the Dalish that even hints at this. In fact Gisharel states that Andraste called Shartan "brother". That is the nature of their relationship. Why didn't Celene just round up everyone involved with the play and imprison them for blasphemy/heresy/obscenity? Instead of, you know, doing a genocide.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 5, 2020 1:59:26 GMT
Well at that particular time the Dalish weren't oppressed by Drakon or Orlais. Yes, they might've been weary of Drakon and thinking he was the next Tevinter but he was also a little busy in his own neck of the woods. And considering I am an educated, intelligent, adult my reading of history matches what BioWare is trying to do...Stockholm syndome is a thing and its also clear that life is very complicated and that these things do actually happen...but to go through with it. I find that perfectly natural that such relationships would exist, sure that is skeevy but love is a complicated emotion, and how is this bullcrap? What people can't be friends? Well it's easy to be friends with the "ideologically detestable" when *your* life, rights, freedoms, etc etc are not in any actual danger. And, actually, as far as science and medicine are concerned, Stockholm Syndrome is *not* a thing. It has never been included in the DSM, because nobody is researching it. And really, ask yourself, would YOU marry, have sex with or even befriend someone who killed your parents? Or burned down a ghetto with all your people trapped inside? Or someone whose JOB it was to keep you locked up, who fervently believed that you were evil because of the way you were born? What about someone who even knocked you unconcious and then left you in a cell without food and water for DAYS, to the point you nearly died of dehydration (like Evangeline did to Rhys in Asunder)? Probably not, right? That's the question though isn't it? (I mean yes I know you are probably talking about Drakon) but the thing is that lets turn it around, under your point Ameridan would've been his friend because he didn't feel like he was in any danger. And his faith wasn't exactly in the norm so maybe Drakon could tolerate different ideologies. Interesting. Well people are into some pretty weird kinks . On a serious note though no I don't think I would. But in Briala's case she didn't find out about this stuff until the end of Masked Empire. After years of mutual attraction and affection between the two of them. And I do know enough from personal experirence that it is not always easy to turn off ones feelings. In the latter case. Well Rhys was acting illegally, a murder suspect, someone who was acting suspiciously, and Evangeline didn't actually leave him in a hole for days...that was Lambert. Please that was a ridiculous salacious idea that PW included in Masked Empire as part of an allegorical play criticising the Empress Celene. For some reason it is okay in Orlais to suggest this about their holy prophet who after all was meant to be Bride of the Maker. So they are suggesting that she not only cheated on her husband with the Maker but Shartan too? It is a measure of how little they respect the memory of Andraste that they would do such a thing as part of a piece of political propaganda. As for Shartan, there is nothing in the elven oral tradition, as found in the Canticle of Shartan or among the lore of the Dalish that even hints at this. In fact Gisharel states that Andraste called Shartan "brother". That is the nature of their relationship. Why didn't Celene just round up everyone involved with the play and imprison them for blasphemy/heresy/obscenity? Instead of, you know, doing a genocide. Well the official reason was for pure politics if she arrested them all it would only prove the allegations true and she would lose her throne. Mind you Celene is one of those very special politicians I utterly despise so...
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 5, 2020 1:59:52 GMT
Huh? I can have friendly conversations over games I like as much as the next guy but in that specific instance you did misconstrue my statement on Greedfall as the game was somehow pro colonialism or even a 'colonial' simulator. I, having played Greedfall..object to that characterization. Well, it is a colonisation story from a coloniser's perspective. Since the PC is some sort of half-native, that would leave us with some sort of "white-raised saviour" if we help the locals. Because of course a native raised by their own culture couldn't do that. Ugh, reminds me of Morrigan at the ToM to some extent.
I got a big kick out of the whole native leader reaction though to the whole thing the basically 'ok keep your heads down, play nice, pretend to love their god and everything will get along'. Ugh, yeah. Rolling over and accpting forced assimiliation is such a great message. That's what I took. I cannot imagine how people could "get a kick out of" the attitude of that guy, seriously.
Anyways back to helping out the natives in this aggressive colonial simulator 2019. How very passive-aggressive, after the fact.
1. In regards to the romance between Evangeline and Rhys yes Evangeline did have the normal Templar biases about such things and on Rhys's side it was probably just an adolescent crush but then she also expressed skepticism and discomfort over some Templar practices (namely their use of phylactories being 'like blood magic') and also objected to Seeker Lambert's more extreme measures...as well as having a soft spot for Cole. Over the course of the narrative and being exposed to Rhys more and the abuses of the Templars she left the order and started a romantic relationship. Actually since this is the third time that this sort of thing has come up in a conversation just today I am starting to wonder if this is another theme of Dragon Age. Learning to see certain groups not by their group biases but as individuas when being exposed to the individualism. Yeh, it was probably just a boner, but, eh, pessimistpanda pointed the ugly better than I could.
With regards to the concept you mentioned last, if Bioware wants to achieve that, they would be better of showing individuals rather than trying to whitewash shitty organisations like the Templar Order - especially by making the other side appear unreassonably "stupid evil" (putting CE Bloodmages everywhere in DA2, the asinine mage limit BS for Dalish, general victim blaming a.k.a "Shitty knife ears deserved their crap because they did not help with the Blaight!!!!"
2. Meredith's case is a little more...complicated given that she kind of suffers from a little bit of a Corypheus situation in their is the monster we see on screen but some of the lore points to her being just a normal Templar until she went mad after being exposed to the idol. Of course this is not again to excuse her actions merely to add context to Cullen's statement about her 'protecting' people. And I do believe in that very same conversation on Kirkwall Cullen expressed regret about 'not seeing her for who she was sooner' and for not acting against her sooner and remooving her from power...as was his his legal power in the Templars if memory serves correctly. Regardless though Cullen is actually one of the most fascinating characters for me because...well I did not especially like him in the first two games but he has kind of been in a extremist yo yo game. He saw extreme evil that mages are indeed capable of in Origins and this made him very anti mage but then saw the evil the Templars could be in 2 which moderated his influence...and indeed his exposure to good mages probably helped. Though I have no idea what youa re talking about regarding his comments on a possessed Trev. 2) I wouldn't call her a normal templar unless it is a defining standard for the Order to recruit traumatised girls who came to the wrong conclusion and have them seize mundane power over a whole city state, and that's before all before the cherry lyrium. That's the issue with Cullen, he's kinda dancing around. Apart that we cannot really call him out, especially compared to some other characters we can be outright rude to in most case (Sera). He's essentially still on his way to get better, but for some odd reason the game treats him as having been through it already. We have Cole who reads him and calls him a "good templar". Is this despite or because of all the crap he said in DA2? :rolleyes:
Inq: “If I was possessed by a demon, would you…” Cullen: “Please, don’t ask me that.” Inq: “I think I know the answer.”
Cullen: “I don’t think you do. It’s not that simple, and I… I would rather not think of it.”
That's similar to the conversation he can have with Surana/Amell in DAO, where he's putting up similar standard templar rhetorics, along the lines of "Yeah, I'd kill you, but nothin' personal." Very good for a relationship, suppose. I'd want to know if my bf might kill me. Instead of giving a clear answer, he dances around and tries to brush of it in a somewhat condescending way. If you don't think she knows, Cullen, then spit it out.
As far as Cass is concerned now I have not actually watched DoS so I am not entirely sure of the specifics but...again ...seems whatever her feelings towards magic overall she really did end up caring for Regie there so much so that she does not exhibit any signs of overt bias by the time Inquisition rolls along, capable of loving anyone who is a mage and also her Divineship is a lot more pro mage and reform oriented then even Vivienne's. Reggie Ahem. Neither did I. A summary was enough. Cassandra tells him that blood mages killed her brother (a.k.a. freudian templar excuse 1-0-1), which apparently made her hate all mages. Instead of consoling her and pointing out that this doesn't justify blanked hatred or something, he comes up with this crap: Galyan: It is true that Circle and Blood Mages are Mages… Galyan: Our methods may differ, but there is no denying we practice a common art… 1. Cassandra attacks Galyan, and when he tries to tell her he’s not a blood mage, she screams “a mage is a mage!” 2. Cassandra calls Galyan pathetic. 3. Cassandra and Galyan escape still chained up and end up falling onto each other. Galyan says “so you prefer the top” when she rolls onto him, she punches him in the face and tells him to shut up. 4. Cassandra says she wants to kill him, but he’s useful to her so she won’t. 5. Cassandra threatens to kill Galyan if he doesn’t do the thing he freely offered to do three minutes prior. 6. Cassandra threatens Galyan again. She says she doesn’t trust any mages, and that “more mages just means more trouble.” 7. Cassandra questions Galyan’s loyalty to the Chantry, which he then explains that Circle mages vow to obey the Chantry and want the Chantry’s law, and any mage that wants freedom is really just looking for their own power. 8. Cassandra is slapped by an ogre and gets a gash on her inner thigh, somehow. Galyan offers to heal the wound and she says she doesn’t want to be in debt to a mage. Galyan reminds her that he has a name, actually. 9. Cassandra lets Galyan heal her thigh wound. 10. Cassandra mentions that her brother knew about healing herbs, Galyan asks if he was a mage and she snarls at him, offended. 11. Cassandra tells Galyan about her brother being killed by a blood mage, so she now sees all mages as being evil. Galyan says that’s fair. (as above) 12. Galyan watches Cassandra sleep. (Twilight moment ) 13. The film ends with Galyan saying Cassandra is the bravest and most beautiful person he’s ever met, and she calls him a fool before kissing him on the cheek. TL:DR Cassandra is an ass to Galyan, he inexplicably loves it, she inexplicably learns he’s ‘not like other mages.’ ...apart from the fact that it really tries to pull "mages are either Chantry apologists or crazy blood cultists. Regalyan has either a deathwish or is a doormat. I'd say Vivienne is more mage-oriented than Cassandra; though she tries to change the system from the inside. Problem with her is she concentrates most power on herself. Cass seems to be less concerned with mage-related stuff and more with Seekers/templars. Back to what was before, but give it a nicer paintjob this time. I mean, it isn't as if she thinks much is wrong about the status quo, she just wants to end the abuses, but we never get shown any clear results. The Tranquility cure isn't even mentioned in Trespasser, despite being two years later. And yes the Celene stuff is kinda sus as hell but given how much human attraction and 'love' is a complicated emotion and its hard to stop loving people...or being attracted to them...it kind of can make some sense that they would still pine for the memories they shared and wish things were different. And I am very curious about where you get the idea that DAI does anything of the kind considering my 7 times playing the game I never got that idea. Yes it might 'gloss over' the massacre but...well all I can say is it glosses it over. . It really does not come up. Well, you do consider that the game withholds info on their relation (so it does not appear that bad?). Before I read up on it, I merely thought that it wouldn't be much of a good idea due to my PC being an elf and thinking that a Briala happily f*cking Celene might drop her causes. Looking up what they did rather skeeved me out.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 5, 2020 2:21:25 GMT
Please that was a ridiculous salacious idea that PW included in Masked Empire as part of an allegorical play criticizing the Empress Celene. For some reason it is okay in Orlais to suggest this about their holy prophet who after all was meant to be Bride of the Maker. So they are suggesting that she not only cheated on her husband with the Maker but Shartan too? It is a measure of how little they respect the memory of Andraste that they would do such a thing as part of a piece of political propaganda. As for Shartan, there is nothing in the elven oral tradition, as found in the Canticle of Shartan or among the lore of the Dalish that even hints at this. In fact Gisharel states that Andraste called Shartan "brother". That is the nature of their relationship. Why didn't Celene just round up everyone involved with the play and imprison them for blasphemy/heresy/obscenity? Instead of, you know, doing a genocide. Because it wouldn't do anything. If anything, it would only fan the idea that she was 'too close' to elves and she was intent on hiding that. Furthermore, as someone who reinvigorated education and the arts in the Empire, her arresting people for putting on a theatrical release would have made her look like a hypocrite to some. So arresting the play's authors would not have done anything beneficial. Blasphemy, heresy, obscenity? That's all common in Olrais. So long as it benefits them, nothing is off limits to them.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 5, 2020 2:26:12 GMT
Huh? I can have friendly conversations over games I like as much as the next guy but in that specific instance you did misconstrue my statement on Greedfall as the game was somehow pro colonialism or even a 'colonial' simulator. I, having played Greedfall..object to that characterization. Well, it is a colonisation story from a coloniser's perspective. Since the PC is some sort of half-native, that would leave us with some sort of "white-raised saviour" if we help the locals. Because of course a native raised by their own culture couldn't do that. Ugh, reminds me of Morrigan at the ToM to some extent.
Ugh, yeah. Rolling over and accpting forced assimiliation is such a great message. That's what I took. I cannot imagine how people could "get a kick out of" the attitude of that guy, seriously.
Anyways back to helping out the natives in this aggressive colonial simulator 2019. How very passive-aggressive, after the fact.
1. In regards to the romance between Evangeline and Rhys yes Evangeline did have the normal Templar biases about such things and on Rhys's side it was probably just an adolescent crush but then she also expressed skepticism and discomfort over some Templar practices (namely their use of phylactories being 'like blood magic') and also objected to Seeker Lambert's more extreme measures...as well as having a soft spot for Cole. Over the course of the narrative and being exposed to Rhys more and the abuses of the Templars she left the order and started a romantic relationship. Actually since this is the third time that this sort of thing has come up in a conversation just today I am starting to wonder if this is another theme of Dragon Age. Learning to see certain groups not by their group biases but as individuas when being exposed to the individualism. Yeh, it was probably just a boner, but, eh, pessimistpanda pointed the ugly better than I could.
With regards to the concept you mentioned last, if Bioware wants to achieve that, they would be better of showing individuals rather than trying to whitewash shitty organisations like the Templar Order - especially by making the other side appear unreassonably "stupid evil" (putting CE Bloodmages everywhere in DA2, the asinine mage limit BS for Dalish, general victim blaming a.k.a "Shitty knife ears deserved their crap because they did not help with the Blaight!!!!"
2. Meredith's case is a little more...complicated given that she kind of suffers from a little bit of a Corypheus situation in their is the monster we see on screen but some of the lore points to her being just a normal Templar until she went mad after being exposed to the idol. Of course this is not again to excuse her actions merely to add context to Cullen's statement about her 'protecting' people. And I do believe in that very same conversation on Kirkwall Cullen expressed regret about 'not seeing her for who she was sooner' and for not acting against her sooner and remooving her from power...as was his his legal power in the Templars if memory serves correctly. Regardless though Cullen is actually one of the most fascinating characters for me because...well I did not especially like him in the first two games but he has kind of been in a extremist yo yo game. He saw extreme evil that mages are indeed capable of in Origins and this made him very anti mage but then saw the evil the Templars could be in 2 which moderated his influence...and indeed his exposure to good mages probably helped. Though I have no idea what youa re talking about regarding his comments on a possessed Trev. 2) I wouldn't call her a normal templar unless it is a defining standard for the Order to recruit traumatised girls who came to the wrong conclusion and have them seize mundane power over a whole city state, and that's before all before the cherry lyrium. That's the issue with Cullen, he's kinda dancing around. Apart that we cannot really call him out, especially compared to some other characters we can be outright rude to in most case (Sera). He's essentially still on his way to get better, but for some odd reason the game treats him as having been through it already. We have Cole who reads him and calls him a "good templar". Is this despite or because of all the crap he said in DA2? :rolleyes:
Inq: “If I was possessed by a demon, would you…” Cullen: “Please, don’t ask me that.” Inq: “I think I know the answer.”
Cullen: “I don’t think you do. It’s not that simple, and I… I would rather not think of it.”
That's similar to the conversation he can have with Surana/Amell in DAO, where he's putting up similar standard templar rhetorics, along the lines of "Yeah, I'd kill you, but nothin' personal." Very good for a relationship, suppose. I'd want to know if my bf might kill me. Instead of giving a clear answer, he dances around and tries to brush of it in a somewhat condescending way. If you don't think she knows, Cullen, then spit it out.
As far as Cass is concerned now I have not actually watched DoS so I am not entirely sure of the specifics but...again ...seems whatever her feelings towards magic overall she really did end up caring for Regie there so much so that she does not exhibit any signs of overt bias by the time Inquisition rolls along, capable of loving anyone who is a mage and also her Divineship is a lot more pro mage and reform oriented then even Vivienne's. Reggie Ahem. Neither did I. A summary was enough. Cassandra tells him that blood mages killed her brother (a.k.a. freudian templar excuse 1-0-1), which apparently made her hate all mages. Instead of consoling her and pointing out that this doesn't justify blanked hatred or something, he comes up with this crap: Galyan: It is true that Circle and Blood Mages are Mages… Galyan: Our methods may differ, but there is no denying we practice a common art… 1. Cassandra attacks Galyan, and when he tries to tell her he’s not a blood mage, she screams “a mage is a mage!” 2. Cassandra calls Galyan pathetic. 3. Cassandra and Galyan escape still chained up and end up falling onto each other. Galyan says “so you prefer the top” when she rolls onto him, she punches him in the face and tells him to shut up. 4. Cassandra says she wants to kill him, but he’s useful to her so she won’t. 5. Cassandra threatens to kill Galyan if he doesn’t do the thing he freely offered to do three minutes prior. 6. Cassandra threatens Galyan again. She says she doesn’t trust any mages, and that “more mages just means more trouble.” 7. Cassandra questions Galyan’s loyalty to the Chantry, which he then explains that Circle mages vow to obey the Chantry and want the Chantry’s law, and any mage that wants freedom is really just looking for their own power. 8. Cassandra is slapped by an ogre and gets a gash on her inner thigh, somehow. Galyan offers to heal the wound and she says she doesn’t want to be in debt to a mage. Galyan reminds her that he has a name, actually. 9. Cassandra lets Galyan heal her thigh wound. 10. Cassandra mentions that her brother knew about healing herbs, Galyan asks if he was a mage and she snarls at him, offended. 11. Cassandra tells Galyan about her brother being killed by a blood mage, so she now sees all mages as being evil. Galyan says that’s fair. (as above) 12. Galyan watches Cassandra sleep. (Twilight moment ) 13. The film ends with Galyan saying Cassandra is the bravest and most beautiful person he’s ever met, and she calls him a fool before kissing him on the cheek. TL:DR Cassandra is an ass to Galyan, he inexplicably loves it, she inexplicably learns he’s ‘not like other mages.’ ...apart from the fact that it really tries to pull "mages are either Chantry apologists or crazy blood cultists. Regalyan has either a deathwish or is a doormat. I'd say Vivienne is more mage-oriented than Cassandra; though she tries to change the system from the inside. Problem with her is she concentrates most power on herself. Cass seems to be less concerned with mage-related stuff and more with Seekers/templars. Back to what was before, but give it a nicer paintjob this time. I mean, it isn't as if she thinks much is wrong about the status quo, she just wants to end the abuses, but we never get shown any clear results. The Tranquility cure isn't even mentioned in Trespasser, despite being two years later. And yes the Celene stuff is kinda sus as hell but given how much human attraction and 'love' is a complicated emotion and its hard to stop loving people...or being attracted to them...it kind of can make some sense that they would still pine for the memories they shared and wish things were different. And I am very curious about where you get the idea that DAI does anything of the kind considering my 7 times playing the game I never got that idea. Yes it might 'gloss over' the massacre but...well all I can say is it glosses it over. . It really does not come up. Well, you do consider that the game withholds info on their relation (so it does not appear that bad?). Before I read up on it, I merely thought that it wouldn't be much of a good idea due to my PC being an elf and thinking that a Briala happily f*cking Celene might drop her causes. Looking up what they did rather skeeved me out. Again there is no whitewashing of any organizations. Simply saying X group has issues just like y group does not mean y groups issues are any less...of an issue. And drawing attention to these issues just means that moving forward, if we are to have any peace at all in Thedas, just means we have to try and come up with a solution with a regard to this level of complexity. In this case our efforts should be to reform the Templar Order but also recognize that mages can be and are dangerous. There is no getting around this fact. Now if it were me...and by extension my characters...and I/they were possessed then I would hope my boyfriend/ significant other/ family would have the courage to kill me. Especially in Dragon Age because it seems like there is limited to no real cures for possession. And while the games/ other media have 'white washed' this issue by giving us alternative means to do so...they have been shown to be risky and time consuming and resource intensive. So, if a crisis presented itself and I was possessed...a danger to other people despite myself...then again I would hope to be stopped...even if that means my death. And what did you honestly expect out of such a conversation? 'gee honey of course I will kill you if you get possessed'. I mean as much as I could understand a Templar actually doing his job he doesen't actually need to say it. As far as dancing around complicated issues with Meredith... well sometimes it is human nature to dance around such things. He was a Templar. He was under her command. And he feels guilty about not stopping her sooner. I would expect a little dancing tbh. And yes, it skeeved me to.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 5, 2020 4:04:41 GMT
Why didn't Celene just round up everyone involved with the play and imprison them for blasphemy/heresy/obscenity? Instead of, you know, doing a genocide. Because it wouldn't do anything. If anything, it would only fan the idea that she was 'too close' to elves and she was intent on hiding that. Furthermore, as someone who reinvigorated education and the arts in the Empire, her arresting people for putting on a theatrical release would have made her look like a hypocrite to some. So arresting the play's authors would not have done anything beneficial. Blasphemy, heresy, obscenity? That's all common in Olrais. So long as it benefits them, nothing is off limits to them. That's moronic. She's the Empress, she makes the damn rules. And what's "common" doesn't matter, what matters is what's LEGAL, and it makes no sense for blasphemy and heresy to be legal when the Chantry literally forms the core of Orlesian expansion and authority.
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Post by azarhal on Oct 5, 2020 12:45:13 GMT
Because it wouldn't do anything. If anything, it would only fan the idea that she was 'too close' to elves and she was intent on hiding that. Furthermore, as someone who reinvigorated education and the arts in the Empire, her arresting people for putting on a theatrical release would have made her look like a hypocrite to some. So arresting the play's authors would not have done anything beneficial. Blasphemy, heresy, obscenity? That's all common in Olrais. So long as it benefits them, nothing is off limits to them. That's moronic. She's the Empress, she makes the damn rules. And what's "common" doesn't matter, what matters is what's LEGAL, and it makes no sense for blasphemy and heresy to be legal when the Chantry literally forms the core of Orlesian expansion and authority. Appearances is everything in politics, even more so when the system is a monarchie. Celene went after the elves to show everyone the allegations were false, going after the artists would just show she didn't like what they were saying without dealing with the allegations, that would leave her vulnerable to attacks from the nobles.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 5, 2020 13:18:40 GMT
That's moronic. She's the Empress, she makes the damn rules. And what's "common" doesn't matter, what matters is what's LEGAL, and it makes no sense for blasphemy and heresy to be legal when the Chantry literally forms the core of Orlesian expansion and authority. Appearances is everything in politics, even more so when the system is a monarchie. Celene went after the elves to show everyone the allegations were false, going after the artists would just show she didn't like what they were saying without dealing with the allegations, that would leave her vulnerable to attacks from the nobles. The play doesn't make any actual allegations against Celene, the play makes allegations about Andraste being Shartan's lover, and that their supposed relationship distracted her from the war against Tevinter and that Maferath was "forced" to betray Andraste for the good of cause. The notion that the Chantry would ignore or not be upset by this kind of slander against their literal messiah is absurd. The subtext of the play as a critique of Celene (which, being subtext, isn't guaranteed to be recognized by anyone who actually watches it, and therefore was always a stupid plan to begin with) is completely irrelevant. If "appearance is everything" then why doesn't the appearance of a play that portrays Andraste as a harlot and a traitor make devout Andrastians angry? And attacking the alienage does not help Celene to address any "allegations" (because no allegations have officially been made about her), it makes her look like a total fucking madwoman, who got so upset about what she imagined a play was implying about her that she COMMITTED FUCKING GENOCIDE, which was exactly what Gaspard was counting on anyway, because he ambushes her after the battle. It's not "politics", it's just completely fucking stupid. The novel tries to sell it as Celene having no other option, but she had lots of options. BioWare just can't write politics or intrigue for shit.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 5, 2020 13:27:11 GMT
1) Again there is no whitewashing of any organizations. Simply saying X group has issues just like y group does not mean y groups issues are any less...of an issue. And drawing attention to these issues just means that moving forward, if we are to have any peace at all in Thedas, just means we have to try and come up with a solution with a regard to this level of complexity. In this case our efforts should be to reform the Templar Order but also recognize that mages can be and are dangerous. There is no getting around this fact. 2) Now if it were me...and by extension my characters...and I/they were possessed then I would hope my boyfriend/ significant other/ family would have the courage to kill me. Especially in Dragon Age because it seems like there is limited to no real cures for possession. And while the games/ other media have 'white washed' this issue by giving us alternative means to do so...they have been shown to be risky and time consuming and resource intensive. So, if a crisis presented itself and I was possessed...a danger to other people despite myself...then again I would hope to be stopped...even if that means my death. And what did you honestly expect out of such a conversation? 'gee honey of course I will kill you if you get possessed'. I mean as much as I could understand a Templar actually doing his job he doesen't actually need to say it. 3) As far as dancing around complicated issues with Meredith... well sometimes it is human nature to dance around such things. He was a Templar. He was under her command. And he feels guilty about not stopping her sooner. I would expect a little dancing tbh. And yes, it skeeved me to. 1) Well, I disagree. Notice how Barris is like the first templar who seems to know what he's doing? Notice how much of an idiot ball was given to Fiona apart from rendering her totally OOC? To achieve what exactly? Bioware apparently cannot really decide how they want to portray the whole circle discussion. Eh, nearly any mage is aware of this, regardless as how much of an epiphany Vivienne tries to sell it. I'm pretty sure there are better (and more effective) ideas than to leave everything to a bunch of zealots with "Divine Right" and no impartial oversight. In fact, I'd say that imparital oversight isn't even possible for either the andrastians or the Qun. 2) Cures are possible. They might be expensive, but that doesn't really matter, we are the inquisitor, right? I'd actually argue that not trying to cure them by any means is more detrimental, because Mark.
Anyway, what I would expect is that he states this clearly and openly or even ask, so the Inq could tell him that she wants to be killed in case of malignant possession. Templar doing his job? I thought he left this life behind? Now what? 3) As I said, it is understandable for him to be in some sort of denial mode. It is just grating that we cannot address this, neither does the game.
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Post by azarhal on Oct 5, 2020 13:59:25 GMT
Appearances is everything in politics, even more so when the system is a monarchie. Celene went after the elves to show everyone the allegations were false, going after the artists would just show she didn't like what they were saying without dealing with the allegations, that would leave her vulnerable to attacks from the nobles. The play doesn't make any actual allegations against Celene, the play makes allegations about Andraste being Shartan's lover, and that their supposed relationship distracted her from the war against Tevinter and that Maferath was "forced" to betray Andraste for the good of cause. The notion that the Chantry would ignore or not be upset by this kind of slander against their literal messiah is absurd. The subtext of the play as a critique of Celene (which, being subtext, isn't guaranteed to be recognized by anyone who actually watches it, and therefore was always a stupid plan to begin with) is completely irrelevant. If "appearance is everything" then why doesn't the appearance of a play that portrays Andraste as a harlot and a traitor make devout Andrastians angry? And attacking the alienage does not help Celene to address any "allegations" (because no allegations have officially been made about her), it makes her look like a total fucking madwoman, who got so upset about what she imagined a play was implying about her that she COMMITTED FUCKING GENOCIDE, which was exactly what Gaspard was counting on anyway, because he ambushes her after the battle. It's not "politics", it's just completely fucking stupid. The novel tries to sell it as Celene having no other option, but she had lots of options. BioWare just can't write politics or intrigue for shit. The play caused people to start to claim that Celene was too lenient on the elves. That's why she crushed the elven rebellion of Halamshiral. It was a show of force to counter those claims. Arresting or censuring the playmakers would have done nothing to stop them. Seems to me that you just don't want to accept that the Orlesians understood the subtext of the play.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 5, 2020 14:26:27 GMT
The play doesn't make any actual allegations against Celene, the play makes allegations about Andraste being Shartan's lover, and that their supposed relationship distracted her from the war against Tevinter and that Maferath was "forced" to betray Andraste for the good of cause. The notion that the Chantry would ignore or not be upset by this kind of slander against their literal messiah is absurd. The subtext of the play as a critique of Celene (which, being subtext, isn't guaranteed to be recognized by anyone who actually watches it, and therefore was always a stupid plan to begin with) is completely irrelevant. If "appearance is everything" then why doesn't the appearance of a play that portrays Andraste as a harlot and a traitor make devout Andrastians angry? And attacking the alienage does not help Celene to address any "allegations" (because no allegations have officially been made about her), it makes her look like a total fucking madwoman, who got so upset about what she imagined a play was implying about her that she COMMITTED FUCKING GENOCIDE, which was exactly what Gaspard was counting on anyway, because he ambushes her after the battle. It's not "politics", it's just completely fucking stupid. The novel tries to sell it as Celene having no other option, but she had lots of options. BioWare just can't write politics or intrigue for shit. The play caused people to start to claim that Celene was too lenient on the elves. That's why she crushed the elven rebellion of Halamshiral. It was a show of force to counter those claims. Arresting or censuring the playmakers would have done nothing to stop them. Seems to me that you just don't want to accept that the Orlesians understood the subtext of the play. It doesn't fucking matter if they did. It wouldn't matter if the play was literally called "Celene the Elf-Loving Slut", committing genocide because of a play is still COMPLETELY FUCKING INSANE. And the subtext is irrelevent to the fact of the play being extreme blasphemy! Do not quote me or reply to me again unless you have a plausible reason for why the Chantry and devout Andrastians would ignore explicit blasphemy. I am not remotely fucking interested in anymore pathetic excuses for Celene's reprehensible actions.
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Post by azarhal on Oct 5, 2020 15:45:11 GMT
The play caused people to start to claim that Celene was too lenient on the elves. That's why she crushed the elven rebellion of Halamshiral. It was a show of force to counter those claims. Arresting or censuring the playmakers would have done nothing to stop them. Seems to me that you just don't want to accept that the Orlesians understood the subtext of the play. It doesn't fucking matter if they did. It wouldn't matter if the play was literally called "Celene the Elf-Loving Slut", committing genocide because of a play is still COMPLETELY FUCKING INSANE. And the subtext is irrelevent to the fact of the play being extreme blasphemy! Do not quote me or reply to me again unless you have a plausible reason for why the Chantry and devout Andrastians would ignore explicit blasphemy. I am not remotely fucking interested in anymore pathetic excuses for Celene's reprehensible actions. There was an elven rebellion in Halamshiral and Celene was doing nothing about it officially. People were calling her leadership into question. She was losing support. The play was oil on an already existing fire. No King/Emperor/Queen/Empress would have let that rebellion go without most of the elves dead and even more repressed afterward. Play or no play. And there is nothing about stating facts that excuse what people do. Why do people claims that every time? I'm trying to make you understand that the play wasn't the reason for what she did, but someone that's excusing what she did?... Just weird. As for the Chantry and not calling the play blasphemy. Why would they when - nobles have armor with Andraste's face on their crotch/breastplate/pauldron. - Orlesian prince get to make a naked statue of Andraste and don't get censured for it- children piss/shit on Andraste's statues without being punished - Orlesians write tactical critique about Maferath basically praising him for selling Andraste in exchange for all the land south. I'm sure looking around a bit more I could find more "Orlesians are degenerates and the Chantry doesn't care" examples.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 5, 2020 16:03:40 GMT
The play caused people to start to claim that Celene was too lenient on the elves. That's why she crushed the elven rebellion of Halamshiral. It was a show of force to counter those claims. Arresting or censuring the playmakers would have done nothing to stop them. Seems to me that you just don't want to accept that the Orlesians understood the subtext of the play. It doesn't fucking matter if they did. It wouldn't matter if the play was literally called "Celene the Elf-Loving Slut", committing genocide because of a play is still COMPLETELY FUCKING INSANE. And the subtext is irrelevent to the fact of the play being extreme blasphemy! Do not quote me or reply to me again unless you have a plausible reason for why the Chantry and devout Andrastians would ignore explicit blasphemy. I am not remotely fucking interested in anymore pathetic excuses for Celene's reprehensible actions. It may be insane by our standards, but not by Thedas's. Alienages have been attacked for much less. All under the pretext of "restoring order". There's riots in Denerim? Kill the elves. There's a sickness in Wycome? The elves did it, therefore they must be killed. The Val Royeaux elves are rebelling? Kill the elves. It's normal, it's not right, but it is what it is. Elves have always been disposable fodder to humans in several countries. And it is usually socially acceptable to kill them. And the Chantry didn't intervene because it couldn't intervene. Or at the very least, the Chantry didn't think they should intervene on what was commonly understood to be a satirical play directed toward Celene. Even if it did feature thier prophet and an elf. From what we can tell, there is actually is some (but not complete) separation between church and state in Orlais. If the Chantry was able to intervene in something like this play, then shouldn't they have done something about the erotic art/literature that featured one of thier Divines (Rosamund)? What about censoring the relatively liberal ideas presented at the University of Orlais that occasionally contradicts religious dogma? It seems that so long it is art or education related in Orlais, the Chantry can't interfere. Or at least heavily encouraged not to. The most they can probably do is condemn the play (or better yet, the slaughter of elves), but they clearly didn't do that. Of course, if they really wanted to they can put pressure on Orlais to remove that play anyway. But the Chantry didn't seem to care all that much. Knowing the Orlesians, this probably is not the first time they did something scandalous with religious figures in a play.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 5, 2020 19:03:34 GMT
Blasphemy, heresy, obscenity? That's all common in Olrais. So long as it benefits them, nothing is off limits to them. Very odd that. The home of the Chantry and yet they have so little respect for the leading figure of their religion. What is amusing is that they clearly try and make Celene out to be Elizabeth I of England. The epilogue picture of her as sole ruler is even based around images from Elizabeth's reign. Plus of course Elizabeth is meant to have been a patroness of the arts and such an enlightened monarch. Also, of course, she never married. Yet a little known fact about her reign is that almost from the beginning it was illegal to have any play or publication that appeared to criticise her religion or religious reforms, whilst of course the Catholic religion and its leading figures were fair game. It was also very dodgy to put on any play that appeared to criticise her rule, even if only allegorical, and Shakespeare nearly fell foul of this when sponsored to do exactly that by the Earl of Essex. Luckily he had plenty of plus points for other plays so his plea of we're only doing as asked by our sponsor was accepted and ultimately it was only Essex who got the chop. My point being that if Celene had truly been Elizabeth I, there is no way Gaspard would have got away with his play, so she was definitely a very weak Empress. Mind you, Briala was clearly no Walsingham when it comes to efficient spy masters. If Walsingham had been in charge of security Gaspard and his cronies would have been clapped in irons the moment they started their conspiracy, game or no game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 5, 2020 19:15:04 GMT
And the Chantry didn't intervene because it couldn't intervene. Or at the very least, the Chantry didn't think they should intervene on what was commonly understood to be a satirical play directed toward Celene. Even if it did feature thier prophet and an elf. The Divine simply made a joke out of it and then practically ordered Celene to march on Halamshiral. My own argument is that if this was 21st century society then the Divine shrugging it off is understandable, although as recently as the 20th century people have still got very twitchy about plays/films that said dodgy things about Jesus. However, Thedas is portrayed as more like the medieval period and there were some things you just didn't do then concerning leading religious figures. Do you honestly think anyone would have got away with a salacious play about Jesus in Rome, even if it was intended as allegory about the local ruler? Which is why I think PW tended to forget this fact when writing his book and may be the writers do generally when considering adding flavour to their universe in writing about how people act with regard to their religion. It is why I have no respect at all for the Chantry as a religion. They honour Andraste and revere her memory only when it suits them to and then ignore it utterly the rest of the time when it does not. As for Andraste's moral teaching, the Game is an affront to this, as is the Chevaliers attitude to the common people, in fact as pretty much everything about Orlesian society is. Yet this is the home of the Chantry.
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