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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 5, 2020 20:09:41 GMT
But yet there is the insinuation again that the writers are having some kind of pro Orlais bias which is just a bit on the suspect side, or at least the evidence does not match that. Because, again, we are looking at this through the lense of ancient history here. And given the circumstances of what was lost to time and likely in the scuffle...what would Orlais have cared about the Dalish defending themselves? To my mind there was a definite shift from presenting it as something lost to time as to who was really responsible for what went on, to gradually representing it as more and more the responsibility of the Dalish. In JoH it is particularly noticeable that no one is allowed to take the Dalish side on the issue. Cassandra excuses Drakon not going in search of Ameridan on the situation in the Anderfels. In fact Drakon didn't leave for the Anderfels for another 10 years after Ameridan disappeared and his original intention wasn't to save the Anderfels but do some land grab of Tevinter territory whilst they were caught up in the Blight but a direct appeal from the First Warden in Weisshauppt caused him to change course. All the writers had to do was look at a map of Thedas to see that the Hakkonites were first and foremost going to be a threat to either the Alamaari on the east side of the Frostbacks or the elves of the Dales on the western side. To suggest that Ameridan was doing this to help defend Orlais was ridiculous. Also if the elves were considered to be in some sort of alliance with Drakon, wouldn't he have warned them of the potential threat from the Avvar? It was to his benefit to get the elves defending against the Avvar as much as it was helping against the darkspawn, because if the elves failed to stop them the barbarians would be attacking southern Orlais when he was otherwise engaged. Yet no one considers that the elves might also have had problems with darkspawn that kept the Emerald Knights fully engaged defending their own people. Yes, I can understand why the Orlesians might have been self-centred enough not to consider these things but in the interests of keeping the story balanced, the writers should have had someone else point them out, even if it was only if you happened to be a Dalish Inquisitor. Considering in DAO we were told there was a Dalish clan operating up in the Anderfels who fought darkspawn there, it would seem the Dalish did help out in the 2nd Blight but again the writers seem to have overlooked that early text. This is what annoys me. It is not the bias of history in world but the failure of the writers to address this in their story line and instead use Ameridan, a Dalish of that time, to reinforce the Chantry version of history. What was also noticeable was that no one thought to make a bigger deal of the fact that the last leader of the Seekers of Truth was a mage! (Who also seemed to have some sort of spirit helper and a lover who was an elven Dreamer). Okay, so when exactly did the Chantry decide that mages were a danger to the community and hell bent on taking control? Drakon was not only friends with an elven mage but trusted him with the role of Inquisitor. So if Andraste had really taught against mages, as the Chantry claim, why was Drakon doing that? (I know why and I also know that Drakon didn't advocate locking up all mages under Templars supervision and only allowing them out under special dispensation but I would have liked someone in world to have pointed this out to the Chantry stalwarts like Giselle, who were still maintaining it was down to Andraste and her teaching, ignoring the fact that it wasn't)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 7, 2020 5:52:40 GMT
And the Chantry didn't intervene because it couldn't intervene. Or at the very least, the Chantry didn't think they should intervene on what was commonly understood to be a satirical play directed toward Celene. Even if it did feature thier prophet and an elf. The Divine simply made a joke out of it and then practically ordered Celene to march on Halamshiral. Lol, nice to have more evidence that Divine Justinia is trash whose death should not be mourned. Also, if the Chantry lacks the power to punish perpetrators of blasphemy, then what good are they going to be with the mages and templars anyway? Why was Celene wanting their help in the first place if they're so completely fucking useless? The whole plot of the novel ceases to make sense. Also, if the Chantry is opposed to an elven uprising, why are they just fine with Andraste being portrayed has HAVING BEEN IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH AN ELF?
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 7, 2020 9:05:49 GMT
Okay, so when exactly did the Chantry decide that mages were a danger to the community and hell bent on taking control? Drakon was not only friends with an elven mage but trusted him with the role of Inquisitor. So if Andraste had really taught against mages, as the Chantry claim, why was Drakon doing that? because everyone's personal history is different. Ameridan came to power despite his "race" and social class being considered "inferior", dangerous. Is it weird/incoherent? No, it's just a rare but very possible thing. it is certainly not strange that a single person rises up (for personal ability, maybe even thanks to a certain cynicism) and is "welcomed" among the dominant class/race, obtaining the trust of those same people who usually persecute "those like him". Perhaps with a little suspicion, envy and with a hint of ill-concealed contempt... but because he is talented, efficient and useful, he is nonetheless covered with honours and important positions. Hell, the modern inquisitor can be a qunari! Although Qunari are considered dangerous and bestial heretics. Or a dalish mage... The new divine can be a mage... (vivienne), even though a mage rebellion has just broken out and the chantry still says they must be kept under control.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2020 14:47:55 GMT
The new divine can be a mage... (vivienne), even though a mage rebellion has just broken out and the chantry still says they must be kept under control. I never understood this one. So Vivienne was politically astute. So what? There are plenty of children of important people who were denied their rightful place in society for being a mage. Connor would be unable to inherit from Arl Eamon because of it. The whole thrust of Chantry teaching is that mages should not be in positions of power. Court Enchanter was originally an insignificant token role. Even if Vivienne succeeded in making more of it by virtue of being the mistress of a leading noble, I found it inconceivable that the Chantry would make such a huge about turn as to put a mage into the leading position of their faith. There clearly were other candidates or a steeled Leliana wouldn't have been blackmailing one of the leading members of the opposition. To be honest, when I discovered Vivienne could be made Divine, I pretty much gave up on the writers keeping a consistent universe. There is no way in Thedas that should have happened. Clearly no one in Thedas really believes anything that is taught by the Chantry and aren't bothered when they contradict themselves after 800 years of mage persecution. Leliana getting away with her reforms was something of a stretch but the ex-bard does know how to spot potential enemies and neutralise them. Her getting elected was consistent though considering she was a Chantry sister. Although I still wonder how that allowed her to leapfrog over any higher ranking clergy. I know Josephine is meant to be a great diplomat but how did we go so suddenly from being heretics to fielding the only 3 credible candidates for the role of Divine?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2020 14:55:57 GMT
Also, if the Chantry is opposed to an elven uprising, why are they just fine with Andraste being portrayed has HAVING BEEN IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH AN ELF? Not only that but simultaneously the university were encouraged by Gaspard to put about that: "anyone fornicating with an elf is insulting the Maker, as one who lies with animals." Bear in mind that allegedly Gaspard hadn't even realised Celene was fornicating with an elf. He was just implying it with his allegorical play and letting the audience do the rest. So not only were they committing blasphemy but they were saying that Andraste was a sinner and guilty of bestiality. Yet apparently this is all okay as part of the Game!!!!! The Dalish have more respect for Andraste than the Orlesian do and they don't even present her as semi-divine but merely a human prophet who was an ally of Shartan. That is what I find so incredible.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2020 15:00:47 GMT
What? The ruling political elite pretend to be devout while simultaneously ignoring or mocking the faith they are “devout” to? *looks at real life history* Yeah, that’s never happened before.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 7, 2020 16:20:33 GMT
I never understood this one. So Vivienne was politically astute. So what? There are plenty of children of important people who were denied their rightful place in society for being a mage. Connor would be unable to inherit from Arl Eamon because of it. The whole thrust of Chantry teaching is that mages should not be in positions of power. Court Enchanter was originally an insignificant token role. Even if Vivienne succeeded in making more of it by virtue of being the mistress of a leading noble, I found it inconceivable that the Chantry would make such a huge about turn as to put a mage into the leading position of their faith. There clearly were other candidates or a steeled Leliana wouldn't have been blackmailing one of the leading members of the opposition. I never understood this one. So Vivienne was politically astute. So what? There are plenty of children of important people who were denied their rightful place in society for being a mage. Connor would be unable to inherit from Arl Eamon because of it. The whole thrust of Chantry teaching is that mages should not be in positions of power. Court Enchanter was originally an insignificant token role. Even if Vivienne succeeded in making more of it by virtue of being the mistress of a leading noble, I found it inconceivable that the Chantry would make such a huge about turn as to put a mage into the leading position of their faith. There clearly were other candidates or a steeled Leliana wouldn't have been blackmailing one of the leading members of the opposition. 1) vivienne has worked on it all her life. She has made important friends, she has many allies, she has participated in the "game", she personally knows the empress, she is a key figure of the Inquisition, she potentially has the support of the Inquisitor (in those years the most powerful person in the south thedas). 2) she is one of the few who remained faithful when everyone rebelled; this makes her a very important reference figure for all mages who are willing to submit again or obey, (with some concessions). She is stabilising figure, a restorer but also a point of breakage. Continuity in change. From some point of view, she is perfect. 3) great upheavals and disasters lead to great and sensational careers. Incredible opportunities open up for the ambitious and the capable. For example, who, in 1785, would have thought that a small Corsican anticlerical bourgeoisie could be crowned emperor by the Pope himself 20 years later? And that his trusty rough generals would be elevated to the highest offices of the State and nobility? None. Such things were simply inconceivable, laughable. Similarly, at the time of the decline of the Roman Empire, or in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution... people who during the previous generation could at most have become middle level officials or functionaries, despised and without prospects, managed to ascend to the highest peaks. There is nothing particularly unrealistic in Divine Vivienne IMO (also because her appointment is not accepted peacefully and without discontent, but it is said only thanks to the Inquisition she managed to crush a strong opposition and three rebellion).
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Post by xerrai on Oct 7, 2020 16:55:11 GMT
I never understood this one. So Vivienne was politically astute. So what? There are plenty of children of important people who were denied their rightful place in society for being a mage. Connor would be unable to inherit from Arl Eamon because of it. The whole thrust of Chantry teaching is that mages should not be in positions of power. Court Enchanter was originally an insignificant token role. Even if Vivienne succeeded in making more of it by virtue of being the mistress of a leading noble, I found it inconceivable that the Chantry would make such a huge about turn as to put a mage into the leading position of their faith. There clearly were other candidates or a steeled Leliana wouldn't have been blackmailing one of the leading members of the opposition. 1) vivienne has worked on it all her life. She has made important friends, she has many allies, she has participated in the "game", she personally knows the empress, she is a key figure of the Inquisition, she potentially has the support of the Inquisitor (in those years the most powerful person in the south thedas). 2) she is one of the few who remained faithful when everyone rebelled; this makes her a very important reference figure for all mages who are willing to submit again or obey, (with some concessions). She is stabilising figure, a restorer but also a point of breakage. Continuity in change. From some point of view, she is perfect. 3) great upheavals and disasters lead to great and sensational careers. Incredible opportunities open up for the ambitious and the capable. For example, who, in 1785, would have thought that a small Corsican anticlerical bourgeoisie could be crowned emperor by the Pope himself 20 years later? And that his trusty rough generals would be elevated to the highest offices of the State and nobility? None. Such things were simply inconceivable, laughable. Similarly, at the time of the decline of the Roman Empire, or in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution... people who during the previous generation could at most have become middle level officials or functionaries, despised and without prospects, managed to ascend to the highest peaks. There is nothing particularly unrealistic in Divine Vivienne IMO (also because her appointment is not accepted peacefully and without discontent, but it is said only thanks to the Inquisition she managed to crush a strong opposition and three rebellion). I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I know how hard Vivienne worked for her power and all that stuff. But allowing her to become DIVINE?! Grand Enchanter, sure, in fact this actually made the most amount of sense since her views were always aligned with traditional Chantry interests which would no doubt lead to Chantry support. I can even see her maintaining a position of power in Orlais due to politics because the Orlesians are not really that devout when it suits them. But DIVINE?! Even though I know it's canon in some world states, the logic just never made sense to me. The Chantry has always had a hard stance when it comes to mages, and this stance was largely maintained in all of the games--including Inquisition. I don't see how she would even be considered as a possibility unless some serious blackmail/murder schemes were involved. Either Vivienne was arranging shady stuff offscreen that the players were unable to see, or the devs really just wanted to include this radical choice for the sake of it. It's not as bad as, say, them going with thier initial plan to allow the player to become the Divine (including a male Qunari). But if Vivienne was going to be an option, they should have included additional content to show how hard and dirty the Inquisition was willing to play things in order to MAKE it happen rather than presenting it as something the Chantry were all of sudden open to considering. Even a few additional table operations about silencing opposition would have gone a long way.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 7, 2020 17:37:12 GMT
The Divine simply made a joke out of it and then practically ordered Celene to march on Halamshiral. Lol, nice to have more evidence that Divine Justinia is trash whose death should not be mourned. Also, if the Chantry lacks the power to punish perpetrators of blasphemy, then what good are they going t o be with the mages and templars anyway? Why was Celene wanting their help in the first place if they're so completely fucking useless?Well the majority of the Chantry's enforcement power came in the form of templars, who they were ostensibly able to control through the Chantry's monopoly over lyrium. But thier inability to maintain control over even thier military arm was clearly presented in Asunder and Inquisition. But thier inability (or unwillingness) to help Celene doesn't automatically make them useless. They basically told the King of Ferelden off when he wanted to grant the Circle there autonomy, for instance. Or look at how Divine Beatrix III influenced Kirkwall by basically encouraging the templars to overthrow the viscount. And I think it says something that Rivain's royal family continues to be andrastian even though the majority of its populace believe in different traditions entirely. The Chantry has influence, that much cannot be denied. That influence can even be seen in the Masked Empire, where the Divine basically told Celene to deal with the elves first before she received any help from the Chantry.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2020 17:43:02 GMT
I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I know how hard Vivienne worked for her power and all that stuff. But allowing her to become DIVINE?! Grand Enchanter, sure, in fact this actually made the most amount of sense since her views were always aligned with traditional Chantry interests which would no doubt lead to Chantry support. I can even see her maintaining a position of power in Orlais due to politics because the Orlesians are not really that devout when it suits them. But DIVINE?! Thank you, this is what I was getting at. Mages are forbidden to be in positions of power. Vivienne might have elevated the importance of Court Enchanter but it is still essentially a position without true power. The Divine is allegedly the most powerful position in Thedas because she controls the religion of the majority of states across the south. So far as Orlais is concerned she is the second most powerful person after the Empress. The Chantry dogma has forbidden a mage to hold such a position right back to the time of Drakon. The reason for the schism between the Orlesian Chantry and that of Tevinter was entirely over the fact that mages were allowed to be members of the clergy in Tevinter and they allegedly altered the Chant to allow mages to be in positions of authority. They were immediately denounced as heretics and the Orlesian Chantry ordered four Exalted Marches against Tevinter because of it. Given all that history how could the southern clergy possibly vote in a mage as Divine no matter how much Josephine pushed for it. Tevinter must have been laughing their socks off. But if Vivienne was going to be an option, they should have included additional content to show how hard and dirty the Inquisition was willing to play things in order to MAKE it happen rather than presenting it as something the Chantry were all of sudden open to considering. Even a few additional table operations about silencing opposition would have gone a long way. What makes it worse is that I didn't push for Vivienne to be Divine. All I did was meet with some Orlesians, one of whom was said to be someone important in the Chantry, and opt for keeping Celene in power and suddenly I'm lumbered with someone I never wanted. So how can it be because the clerics fear the Inquisition? As you say, at least have some War Table Missions that show what is going on to bring about this absurd situation. It honestly never occurred to me that Vivienne might be Divine until it happened because it was so contrary to the dogma of the Chantry. For example, who, in 1785, would have thought that a small Corsican anticlerical bourgeoisie could be crowned emperor by the Pope himself 20 years later? And that his trusty rough generals would be elevated to the highest offices of the State and nobility? None. Such things were simply inconceivable, laughable. Those were political positions not religious leaders. There have been occasions when there were two Popes simultaneously because people disagreed with the appointment of one and substituted another. So if the writers had had that happen, I could have believed it. When Vivienne was elected, why couldn't I oppose it and set up an alternative? Or if players genuinely wanted her, have a separate group set up an alternative Divine. I may not have agreed with the Chantry is previous games because I could see how they had altered the meaning of Andraste's words for political motives but at least they were consistent in their actions. However, now I just don't see it as credible. If they are going to do that, why not let us have an alternative version of the Andrastrian religion to follow? By that I don't mean the one up in Tevinter but perhaps a revival of one of the cults from immediately after the death of Andraste, only this time, unlike in DAO, not make them the villains but a group we could credibly promote as an alternative to the Orlesian Chantry? Every single game I was happy to be a follower of Andraste but not the blasted Chantry because I could see so clearly how corrupt it was and had little respect people seem to give to their alleged prophet. How can anyone be accused of heresy if they go against their own teaching in such a profound way? If the Herald was going to influence such profound changes in Chantry dogma, let them simply set up their own independent cult for people to follow and then the Inquisitor could have been head of that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2020 18:05:09 GMT
What? The ruling political elite pretend to be devout while simultaneously ignoring or mocking the faith they are “devout” to? *looks at real life history* Yeah, that’s never happened before. Yes but normally someone calls them out on it. According to PW it was the commoners who were being "amused" by this play and wolf whistling at the antics of the players on stage, not simply the nobility seeing it as a political allegory. On the whole it is the commoners who tend to be more genuinely devout than the nobility. So why were they not more angry at the insult to their prophet? Forget the political allegory and look at what the play is saying about Andraste. Then what Gaspard had university scholars say about people who fornicate with elves. After all the commoners in the audience didn't know that the theatre owner's son had been kidnapped to force the change upon them. If Celene had any backbone she would have arrested both the theatre owner and the playwright for the heretical play, denouncing both Remarch and Gaspard at the same time and then used it to her political advantage, reminding people that in the true version of the story Maferath was a traitor who betrayed Andraste. Another thing about Masked Empire that didn't make sense to me. We've been told that in Orlais the nobility rule by Divine Right and to rebel is considered a sin against the Maker, which means the Empress definitely rules by Divine Right. In our real world, when monarchs ruled by divine right it was considered a sin as well as treason to rebel or threaten their life. The Duke of Norfolk was Queen Elizabeth I cousin but when he conspired against her, he lost his head and the majority of those supporting him did too. I find it a puzzle that you can have the dogma of Divine Right alongside the Game because the one is in direct contradiction of the other.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 7, 2020 18:05:55 GMT
I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I know how hard Vivienne worked for her power and all that stuff. But allowing her to become DIVINE?! Grand Enchanter, sure, in fact this actually made the most amount of sense since her views were always aligned with traditional Chantry interests which would no doubt lead to Chantry support. I can even see her maintaining a position of power in Orlais due to politics because the Orlesians are not really that devout when it suits them. But DIVINE?! Thank you, this is what I was getting at. Mages are forbidden to be in positions of power. Vivienne might have elevated the importance of Court Enchanter but it is still essentially a position without true power. The Divine is allegedly the most powerful position in Thedas because she controls the religion of the majority of states across the south. So far as Orlais is concerned she is the second most powerful person after the Empress. The Chantry dogma has forbidden a mage to hold such a position right back to the time of Drakon. The reason for the schism between the Orlesian Chantry and that of Tevinter was entirely over the fact that mages were allowed to be members of the clergy in Tevinter and they allegedly altered the Chant to allow mages to be in positions of authority. They were immediately denounced as heretics and the Orlesian Chantry ordered four Exalted Marches against Tevinter because of it. Given all that history how could the southern clergy possibly vote in a mage as Divine no matter how much Josephine pushed for it. Tevinter must have been laughing their socks off. But if Vivienne was going to be an option, they should have included additional content to show how hard and dirty the Inquisition was willing to play things in order to MAKE it happen rather than presenting it as something the Chantry were all of sudden open to considering. Even a few additional table operations about silencing opposition would have gone a long way. What makes it worse is that I didn't push for Vivienne to be Divine. All I did was meet with some Orlesians, one of whom was said to be someone important in the Chantry, and opt for keeping Celene in power and suddenly I'm lumbered with someone I never wanted. So how can it be because the clerics fear the Inquisition? As you say, at least have some War Table Missions that show what is going on to bring about this absurd situation. It honestly never occurred to me that Vivienne might be Divine until it happened because it was so contrary to the dogma of the Chantry. For example, who, in 1785, would have thought that a small Corsican anticlerical bourgeoisie could be crowned emperor by the Pope himself 20 years later? And that his trusty rough generals would be elevated to the highest offices of the State and nobility? None. Such things were simply inconceivable, laughable. Those were political positions not religious leaders. There have been occasions when there were two Popes simultaneously because people disagreed with the appointment of one and substituted another. So if the writers had had that happen, I could have believed it. When Vivienne was elected, why couldn't I oppose it and set up an alternative? Or if players genuinely wanted her, have a separate group set up an alternative Divine. I may not have agreed with the Chantry is previous games because I could see how they had altered the meaning of Andraste's words for political motives but at least they were consistent in their actions. However, now I just don't see it as credible. If they are going to do that, why not let us have an alternative version of the Andrastrian religion to follow? By that I don't mean the one up in Tevinter but perhaps a revival of one of the cults from immediately after the death of Andraste, only this time, unlike in DAO, not make them the villains but a group we could credibly promote as an alternative to the Orlesian Chantry? Every single game I was happy to be a follower of Andraste but not the blasted Chantry because I could see so clearly how corrupt it was and had little respect people seem to give to their alleged prophet. How can anyone be accused of heresy if they go against their own teaching in such a profound way? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaroziaWorst than Vivienne and the inquisitor Btw, vivienne (a mage) and leliana (a revolutionary) are both a "coup d'état" by the Inquisitor, yes. No way they were going to be elected without his support and influence and/or in "normal" conditions.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 7, 2020 19:40:50 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaroziaWorst than Vivienne and the inquisitor Btw, vivienne (a mage) and leliana (a revolutionary) are both a "coup d'état" by the Inquisitor, yes. No way they were going to be elected without his support and influence and/or in "normal" conditions. Vivienne, yes. Leliana, not so much. While her beliefs and potential reforms would certainly be a sticking point for anyone in the Grand Consensus, Leliana (alongside Cassandra) were both was way more believable as a candidate than Vivienne. Reason #1: She's no mage. Reason #2: She (alongside Cassandra) were both technically part of the Chantry hierarchy. In Leliana's case this is actually better because she was lay sister at one point. And reason #3: Leliana and Cassandra both were close to the previous Divine, which makes them close runner ups for Justinia's successor. After all, it is customary for the Divine to be nominate thier potential successor themselves. And while Justinia died before formally making that choice, her Left and Right hands are believable candidates and is presumably why they drifted toward them in the first place. Which isn't to say being affiliated with the Inquisition didn't help them or help grease the wheels, but at least they were way more believable as candidates due to thier actual Chantry affiliations.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2020 20:14:25 GMT
Btw, vivienne (a mage) and leliana (a revolutionary) are both a "coup d'état" by the Inquisitor, yes. No way they were going to be elected without his support and influence and/or in "normal" conditions. I agree but as Leliana had been a Chantry sister she was at least part of the clergy and electing her did not drastically challenge accepted dogma, even if the reforms she instituted afterwards did. With both of them really, though, the question that runs through my mind and which I'd love for someone to raise during the game is, if keeping mages under lock and key and out of positions of power was the will of the Maker, what changed? Did the Maker suddenly realise that he had got it wrong after all these years? For that matter, did Tevinter get it right? May be that is why the four Exalted Marches failed. Perhaps the Maker is with the Imperial Chantry after all? It is interesting though that Cassandra will eventually refuse to work with Vivienne because she is perverting the Chant, whilst she will continue to support Leliana even though she doesn't agree with all her policies. I do wonder what would happen a few years down the line with the Inquisition stripped of power. Interestingly Leliana is in favour of disbanding it. I can't remember what Vivienne's viewpoint is but I assume she would want it kept going as her own personal army.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 7, 2020 20:14:57 GMT
I was going to say something...but then I realized this whole conversation is kind of the point.
Not going to spoil how but there are at least two rather blatant examples of perspective shifts in TVN. Plus the rather famous example of Loghain betraying Cailin...and a few others.
Of course while these conversations are the point...that it kind of uses the RPG formula to mess with philosophical perspectives. It also makes it that much more frustrating when people make the assumption that they are stupid (though ignorance could be a thing) or worse that they have some sort of agenda as sus as hell.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 7, 2020 20:48:58 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaroziaWorst than Vivienne and the inquisitor Btw, vivienne (a mage) and leliana (a revolutionary) are both a "coup d'état" by the Inquisitor, yes. No way they were going to be elected without his support and influence and/or in "normal" conditions. Vivienne, yes. Leliana, not so much. While her beliefs and potential reforms would certainly be a sticking point for anyone in the Grand Consensus, Leliana (alongside Cassandra) were both was way more believable as a candidate than Vivienne. Reason #1: She's no mage. Reason #2: She (alongside Cassandra) were both technically part of the Chantry hierarchy. In Leliana's case this is actually better because she was lay sister at one point. And reason #3: Leliana and Cassandra both were close to the previous Divine, which makes them close runner ups for Justinia's successor. After all, it is customary for the Divine to be nominate thier potential successor themselves. And while Justinia died before formally making that choice, her Left and Right hands are believable candidates and is presumably why they drifted toward them in the first place. Which isn't to say being affiliated with the Inquisition didn't help them or help grease the wheels, but at least they were way more believable as candidates due to thier actual Chantry affiliations. Vivienne being elected Divine is something strange, revolutionary, but her policies are conservative, in line with tradition, they are what the Templars and the dogmatic leaders of the Chantry (like Elthina) would have liked. So, if you are willing to accept this big-little heresy (a Divine mage!) in facts and actions vivienne is a divine pretty much like all the others before, reassuring and rigorous. Leliana is the exact opposite. Her candidacy and her election are acceptable, sister of the chantry,left hand etc, but what she does next is a total revolution, a mad (or brilliant) jump into the void. I see both of them quite weak and surrounded by potential enemies (for different reasons) and very dependent on the support of the Inquisition.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 7, 2020 21:29:48 GMT
What? The ruling political elite pretend to be devout while simultaneously ignoring or mocking the faith they are “devout” to? *looks at real life history* Yeah, that’s never happened before. Everyone knows that real-life popes and kings throughout history were pieces of shit who didn't follow their own rules, but they didn't engage in public blasphemy or heresy, or allow others to engage in it, because those things *undermine the 'divine authority' from which they derive their right to govern others*. That's why it doesn't make sense. If the Chantry allows people to disrespect Andraste, they undermine their own authority.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 7, 2020 21:41:34 GMT
What? The ruling political elite pretend to be devout while simultaneously ignoring or mocking the faith they are “devout” to? *looks at real life history* Yeah, that’s never happened before. Yes but normally someone calls them out on it. According to PW it was the commoners who were being "amused" by this play and wolf whistling at the antics of the players on stage, not simply the nobility seeing it as a political allegory. On the whole it is the commoners who tend to be more genuinely devout than the nobility. So why were they not more angry at the insult to their prophet? Forget the political allegory and look at what the play is saying about Andraste. Then what Gaspard had university scholars say about people who fornicate with elves. After all the commoners in the audience didn't know that the theatre owner's son had been kidnapped to force the change upon them. If Celene had any backbone she would have arrested both the theatre owner and the playwright for the heretical play, denouncing both Remarch and Gaspard at the same time and then used it to her political advantage, reminding people that in the true version of the story Maferath was a traitor who betrayed Andraste. Another thing about Masked Empire that didn't make sense to me. We've been told that in Orlais the nobility rule by Divine Right and to rebel is considered a sin against the Maker, which means the Empress definitely rules by Divine Right. In our real world, when monarchs ruled by divine right it was considered a sin as well as treason to rebel or threaten their life. The Duke of Norfolk was Queen Elizabeth I cousin but when he conspired against her, he lost his head and the majority of those supporting him did too. I find it a puzzle that you can have the dogma of Divine Right alongside the Game because the one is in direct contradiction of the other. Okay, if the play was beong shown to "commoners" and NOT the nobility, then I REFUSE to believe that the vast majority of them picked up on any sort of allegory between Andraste and Celene. Most of them likely haven't been taught to READ, let alone recognize an allegory, and they certainly wouldn't be privy to rumours about Celene's sexual proclivities.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 7, 2020 21:45:16 GMT
Yes but normally someone calls them out on it. According to PW it was the commoners who were being "amused" by this play and wolf whistling at the antics of the players on stage, not simply the nobility seeing it as a political allegory. On the whole it is the commoners who tend to be more genuinely devout than the nobility. So why were they not more angry at the insult to their prophet? Forget the political allegory and look at what the play is saying about Andraste. Then what Gaspard had university scholars say about people who fornicate with elves. After all the commoners in the audience didn't know that the theatre owner's son had been kidnapped to force the change upon them. If Celene had any backbone she would have arrested both the theatre owner and the playwright for the heretical play, denouncing both Remarch and Gaspard at the same time and then used it to her political advantage, reminding people that in the true version of the story Maferath was a traitor who betrayed Andraste. Another thing about Masked Empire that didn't make sense to me. We've been told that in Orlais the nobility rule by Divine Right and to rebel is considered a sin against the Maker, which means the Empress definitely rules by Divine Right. In our real world, when monarchs ruled by divine right it was considered a sin as well as treason to rebel or threaten their life. The Duke of Norfolk was Queen Elizabeth I cousin but when he conspired against her, he lost his head and the majority of those supporting him did too. I find it a puzzle that you can have the dogma of Divine Right alongside the Game because the one is in direct contradiction of the other. Okay, if the play was beong shown to "commoners" and NOT the nobility, then I REFUSE to believe that the vast majority of them picked up on any sort of allegory between Andraste and Celene. Most of them likely haven't been taught to READ, let alone recognize an allegory, and they certainly wouldn't be privy to rumours about Celene's sexual proclivities. plus the commoners would've probably been titillated.
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Post by Mithras on Oct 7, 2020 21:57:16 GMT
I'd say it was definitely an oversight on Patrick Weekes' part. I can't say I know much about medieval threatre productions but I really can't picture Jesus Christ being mocked in one while Judas is the hero without heads rolling.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 7, 2020 22:05:02 GMT
I'd say it was definitely an oversight on Patrick Weekes' part. I can't say I know much about medieval threatre productions but I really can't picture Jesus Christ being mocked in one while Judas is the hero without heads rolling. Well I try to avoid comparisons to medieval society because, being a fantasy written by modern people, Dragon Age is not required to imitate medieval society in any way (and in fact it mostly doesn't), but it makes no sense for ANY religion in ANY place or time period to be just fine and dandy with any text that criticises their messiah or their doctrine.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 8, 2020 8:59:18 GMT
In my opinion, many of you give too much weight to books and other secondary media. They are mostly a hodgepodge of junk and headcanons. Their only function is to be a cheap source of money, plus a stream of consciousness, maybe bring out some good ideas or effective background of some character.
As for realism and consistency of the Da lore, from a methodological point of view, I would only use video game material, and I would avoid filling the gaps with comics and books crap.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 8, 2020 16:21:15 GMT
In my opinion, many of you give too much weight to books and other secondary media. They are mostly a hodgepodge of junk and headcanons. Their only function is to be a cheap source of money, plus a stream of consciousness, maybe bring out some good ideas or effective background of some character. No, they actually aren't. They are canon. It's been established to be so by the devs. And if some elements of them don't jive with our headcanon or world-state we are supposed to imagine that the conclusion of a given book or comic happened anyway, even if not in the same order or with different characters involved. Games usually confirm that auxiliary materials are part of canon. Cole was first introduced in Ascension. Things in TME have been confirmed by WEWH. The fact that events in "Until We Sleep" happened has been confirmed by Varric having a banter establishing that he has met Sten. And so on and so forth.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 8, 2020 16:32:06 GMT
In my opinion, many of you give too much weight to books and other secondary media. They are mostly a hodgepodge of junk and headcanons. Their only function is to be a cheap source of money, plus a stream of consciousness, maybe bring out some good ideas or effective background of some character. No, they actually aren't. They are canon. It's been established to be so by the devs. And if some elements of them don't jive with our headcanon or world-state we are supposed to imagine that the conclusion of a given book or comic happened anyway, even if not in the same order or with different characters involved. Games usually confirm that auxiliary materials are part of canon. Cole was first introduced in Ascension. Things in TME have been confirmed by WEWH. The fact that events in "Until We Sleep" happened has been confirmed by Varric having a banter establishing that he has met Sten. And so on and so forth. No, they are not canon. They can be contradicted by in-game material, so they are not primary canon. For example, if in your keep alistair is dead, he is dead in inquistion. In the comics he is alive and king.. so? At best, they secondary canon. Like the star wars canon. G-canon was "George Lucas canon": Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time) overrode the lower levels of canonicity,[50] even when referencing elements introduced in other media. In the words of Leland Chee: "George's view of the universe is his view. He's not beholden to what's gone before."[46] T-canon was Television canon: The canonicity level comprising The Clone Wars, which Lucas co-created.[50] C-canon was Continuity canon: Most of the material from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and video games.[50] The creation of stories that introduced radical changes in the continuity, like The Force Unleashed video game (which introduced Darth Vader's secret apprentice), required Lucas's approval, and he spent hours explaining the character relationships to the developers.[46] S-canon was Secondary canon: Any element introduced in Continuity canon that was contradicted by other material.[50] The Holiday Special is an example, except for elements referenced in higher levels of canon.[46][51] D-canon was Detours canon: Elements of the unreleased show Detours, though primarily intended as a parody of the franchise, were to follow a serial storyline that existed in a low level of canonicity.[52] N-canon was Non-canon: "What if" stories (such as the first 20 issues of the Star Wars Tales comic anthology), crossover appearances (such as Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher levels of canon.[50]
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Post by xerrai on Oct 8, 2020 17:07:57 GMT
In my opinion, many of you give too much weight to books and other secondary media. They are mostly a hodgepodge of junk and headcanons. Their only function is to be a cheap source of money, plus a stream of consciousness, maybe bring out some good ideas or effective background of some character. No, they actually aren't. They are canon. It's been established to be so by the devs. And if some elements of them don't jive with our headcanon or world-state we are supposed to imagine that the conclusion of a given book or comic happened anyway, even if not in the same order or with different characters involved. Games usually confirm that auxiliary materials are part of canon. Cole was first introduced in Ascension. Things in TME have been confirmed by WEWH. The fact that events in "Until We Sleep" happened has been confirmed by Varric having a banter establishing that he has met Sten. And so on and so forth. Pretty much this. While it is true that various world states can put the material of the books into "semi-canon", we know that the major events of the books still takes place. Take Asunder for example. That book can have First Enchanter Irving and Wynne are in attendance even though he may have been killed in DAO, but we know the several of the books events are carried over in DAI. These include the White Spire Revolts, Cole's existence, and the vote for separation that helped trigger the Mage-Templar war. There a multitude of stuff in DAI that are explained by supplementary media: Fiona being cured of the taint? That happened durring The Calling. Cassandra being the Hero of Orlais and relationship with Regalyan? Seen in the Dawn of the Seeker movie. Briala, Celene and Gaspard being the main players in Orlais's Civil war? Mostly set up in The Masked Empire. Solas's admittance in Trespasser that Briala had control over an eluvian network before he took control of it? Also explained in The Masked Empire. Some of them may not have happened in certain world states at all (ex. Dragon Age: Silent Grove/Those Who Speak not happening because Alistair is not King of Ferelden). Dragon Age: Redemption's canonicity is also dubious since it was a web series. Same goes for the material covered in the tabletop RPG. But at this point there are so many references to book events in the games that it would be foolish to automatically ignore them or brush them aside automatically. But as a general rule: if book events are referenced in a main game, it is safe to assume some version of the book events happened.
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