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Post by yogsothoth on Oct 17, 2020 2:38:12 GMT
You know in hindisight that particular ability of his does seem a little OP and not quite matching with the lore because it does beg the question, how is he able to do this? Spirits can see the real world from the Fade. Solas just has to have his army of spirits find whoever he needs to find, then he can probably kill them. Or he can just search through the Fade himself and do it.
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Post by ellehaym on Oct 17, 2020 2:49:53 GMT
While its true that Dwarves can't naturally enter the Fade in their sleep, we have seen cases where powerful magic can force a Dwarf there: the demon in the circle, Baroness, Torpor, etc. So maybe Solas did something similar where he transports their consciousness to the Fade and kill them there? I do wonder if Dwarves still living in the Thaigs are immune to it since they have stronger connection to The Stone?
On a side note, since the original Elvhen name for Skyhold was "the place where the sky was held." Then what could Sundermount have been originally called? Maybe "sundered mountain?" Since Titans are described as being mountain-sized then could it be where Mythal sundered (or killed) a Titan?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Oct 17, 2020 6:31:31 GMT
While its true that Dwarves can't naturally enter the Fade in their sleep, we have seen cases where powerful magic can force a Dwarf there: the demon in the circle, Baroness, Torpor, etc. They were sleeping next to the red lyrium idol, maybe it caused them to go to the fade in their dreams, allowing Solas to dream stalk and kill them. Or maybe the idol is just a beacon in general. Even if he can't find you, he can find it, bad luck for you if you're nearby.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2020 8:16:06 GMT
And I have to wonder - we know that Solas can effectively kill surface dwarves in their sleep, but what about the dwarves who have never left the shelter of The Stone? , You know in hindisight that particular ability of his does seem a little OP and not quite matching with the lore because it does beg the question, how is he able to do this? There are hints in the story that in fact he was not responsible for the death of the dwarves but the Carta guy may have actually done it himself. The Executor also mentions a Crow poison that is heavier than air and so would only affect those lying down. Also, even if Solas did kill them in some way, it may have been through using the elf who was present to locate them, acting as a sort of living foci. Remember Varric has been drawn into the Fade twice by other people's dreams/rituals, so the presence of the elf could explain how a Dreamer attack was successful against dwarves, particularly as they were surface dwarves, like Varric. The dwarves maintain that those who go topside lose their "stone sense". It may well be that even if the dwarves have lost their conscious connection to the Titans, they still have some innate connection as long as they are underground and so closer to them. Also, the lack of dreams was originally said to be connected to their contact with lyrium, which makes sense as this is now said to be the blood of titans and therefore the whole of the Deep Roads is likely shot through with it. If a lyrium brand is sufficient to cut off a mage from the Fade and thus from dreams, the Deep Roads is effectively one giant lyrium brand. In the rhyme about Mythal and the dwarves that we find in the Deep Roads, it is Mythal who gives them dreams. So she did she do something to them that made them different? The ancient writing in the Temple of Mythal talks of the dwarves as "witless" and "Souless". However, that is simply how they appeared to the elves. Solas regards the modern races in a similar way. So may be dwarves were never meant to dream and it was Mythal who forced an unnatural state upon them. Of course, Solas would regard it differently considering he was Mythal's side-kick and he thinks being in contact with the Fade is everything. Solas has incredible power as a Dreamer but the lore has always been that dwarves and tranquil cannot be affected by spells that rely on the individual dreaming for them to work. If he does find it difficult to see dwarves through the Fade, then they could be the key to preventing him "seeing" what people are doing against him. The same, of course, would be true of tranquil but the Venatori killed the majority of them off in the south. However, Dorian says that Tevinter also uses tranquility as a punishment for mages who anger those in power, so there could be tranquil in Tevinter who could help. There are also two potential tranquil Dreamers out there, Feynriel and Felassan.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2020 8:26:23 GMT
They were sleeping next to the red lyrium idol, maybe it caused them to go to the fade in their dreams, allowing Solas to dream stalk and kill them. As red lyrium is corrupted by the Blight I would have thought it would likely connect with the source of blight magic rather than the Fade. In which case it ought to allow him to locate any blighted creature, for example the mind of a Grey Warden, or the remaining Arch-demons or Magisters Sidereal but likely reducing his contact with the Fade as a consequence. After all, he maintained that is why he doesn't use blood magic, although that always seemed odd considering all other lore suggested that blood magic thins the Veil, thus making the connection with the Fade stronger rather than weaker.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2020 8:38:52 GMT
And I have to wonder - we know that Solas can effectively kill surface dwarves in their sleep, but what about the dwarves who have never left the shelter of The Stone? , You know in hindisight that particular ability of his does seem a little OP and not quite matching with the lore because it does beg the question, how is he able to do this? There are hints in the story that in fact he was not responsible for the death of the dwarves but the Carta guy may have actually done it himself. The Executor also mentions a Crow poison that is heavier than air and so would only affect those lying down. Also, even if Solas did kill them in some way, it may have been through using the elf who was present to locate them, acting as a sort of living foci. Remember Varric has been drawn into the Fade twice by other people's dreams/rituals, so the presence of the elf could explain how a Dreamer attack was successful against dwarves, particularly as they were surface dwarves, like Varric. The dwarves maintain that those who go topside lose their "stone sense". It may well be that even if the dwarves have lost their conscious connection to the Titans, they still have some innate connection as long as they are underground and so closer to them. Also, the lack of dreams was originally said to be connected to their contact with lyrium, which makes sense as this is now said to be the blood of titans and therefore the whole of the Deep Roads is likely shot through with it. If a lyrium brand is sufficient to cut off a mage from the Fade and thus from dreams, the Deep Roads is effectively one giant lyrium brand. In the rhyme about Mythal and the dwarves that we find in the Deep Roads, it is Mythal who gives them dreams. So she did she do something to them that made them different? The ancient writing in the Temple of Mythal talks of the dwarves as "witless" and "Souless". However, that is simply how they appeared to the elves. Solas regards the modern races in a similar way. So may be dwarves were never meant to dream and it was Mythal who forced an unnatural state upon them. Of course, Solas would regard it differently considering he was Mythal's side-kick and he thinks being in contact with the Fade is everything. Solas has incredible power as a Dreamer but the lore has always been that dwarves and tranquil cannot be affected by spells that rely on the individual dreaming for them to work. If he does find it difficult to see dwarves through the Fade, then they could be the key to preventing him "seeing" what people are doing against him. The same, of course, would be true of tranquil but the Venatori killed the majority of them off in the south. However, Dorian says that Tevinter also uses tranquility as a punishment for mages who anger those in power, so there could be tranquil in Tevinter who could help. There are also two potential tranquil Dreamers out there, Feynriel and Felassan. D'oh now I feel silly. Though it is interesting you bring up Felessan. The implication of the scenes was that he was dead however I do seem to remember it mentioning if you 'died' in the fade then you would be rendered Tranquil...something to that effect...in the Lore. But that would be odd (or really appropriate?) for Solas to create something that could be used against him like that.
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Post by telanadas on Oct 17, 2020 9:29:39 GMT
As much as I would love to see Felassan brought back, do people really think Solas has it in him to make his old friend tranquil..? He considered tranquility detestable and disapproved greatly of it being used on even the worst judged captors. Honestly it makes more sense to me for him to kill rogue agents outright rather than resorting to tranquility, something he clearly loathes. If Felassan is brought back as tranquil tbh I would be very disappointed and it'd completely ruin Solas' character imo.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2020 11:14:30 GMT
Though it is interesting you bring up Felessan. The implication of the scenes was that he was dead however I do seem to remember it mentioning if you 'died' in the fade then you would be rendered Tranquil...something to that effect...in the Lore. But that would be odd (or really appropriate?) for Solas to create something that could be used against him like that. As much as I would love to see Felassan brought back, do people really think Solas has it in him to make his old friend tranquil.. PW did confirm that it was his intention to imply that Felassan was dead. However, when it was pointed out what Marethari said about Feynriel, he agreed that in theory Felassan could be tranquil, so the door was left open for him to return if the writers wanted to do that, but he also said that for the present we should assume he is dead. As for Solas intentionally making Felassan tranquil, I'm sure he wouldn't but what if he didn't know that was the result of his action? How many other Dreamers had he killed through the Fade since raising the Veil? Quite possibly none. So how would he know that would be the result? Since the resulting tranquil would be undectectable from the Fade, he wouldn't be aware the person was still alive. Solas doesn't always anticipate the results of his actions. Just a thought.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 23, 2020 8:43:37 GMT
I've been pondering the connection between spirits and lyrium. In Awakening Justice is fascinated by lyrium and in particular is drawn to the song it makes. This made me wonder if spirits originally crossing from the Fade to the Waking World when there was no Veil was in response to the song of the lyrium in the earth. Then when they made contact with the earth they formed bodies, may be even as a result of touching the lyrium there. These were the First of the Elvhen. When the Earth fought back against this invasion, the war occurred that resulted in Elgar'nan and Mythal conquering the titans, thus allowing the Elvhen direct access to even more lyrium.
Even normal lyrium can have a bad effect on people in its raw state and can eventually drive them to madness as well as other lesser symptoms such as deafness, nausea and memory loss. Of course it is meant to be particularly lethal to mages but the Evanuris were not ordinary mages. Still I do wonder if overuse or continued proximity to lyrium had a bad effect on them, without taking into account the red stuff.
Why does lyrium sing? The dwarves can hear this too and it helps them locate the richest seems but it is hardly surprising they are attuned to the stuff considering they are the children of the titans. Is the longing of demons to cross the Veil not simply a desire to experience the world there but also a sub-conscious response to the song of the lyrium? Is the reason they find it easier to locate mages and their desire to possess them rather than ordinary mortals because of the concentration of lyrium in their blood? Although if that was the case, wouldn't the lyrium brand on a tranquil act like a beacon to spirits rather than the opposite?
When Flemeth says: "So long as the music plays we dance", is she referring to the song of the lyrium?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 23, 2020 9:00:00 GMT
I've been pondering the connection between spirits and lyrium. In Awakening Justice is fascinated by lyrium and in particular is drawn to the song it makes. This made me wonder if spirits originally crossing from the Fade to the Waking World when there was no Veil was in response to the song of the lyrium in the earth. Then when they made contact with the earth they formed bodies, may be even as a result of touching the lyrium there. These were the First of the Elvhen. When the Earth fought back against this invasion, the war occurred that resulted in Elgar'nan and Mythal conquering the titans, thus allowing the Elvhen direct access to even more lyrium. Even normal lyrium can have a bad effect on people in its raw state and can eventually drive them to madness as well as other lesser symptoms such as deafness, nausea and memory loss. Of course it is meant to be particularly lethal to mages but the Evanuris were not ordinary mages. Still I do wonder if overuse or continued proximity to lyrium had a bad effect on them, without taking into account the red stuff. Why does lyrium sing? The dwarves can hear this too and it helps them locate the richest seems but it is hardly surprising they are attuned to the stuff considering they are the children of the titans. Is the longing of demons to cross the Veil not simply a desire to experience the world there but also a sub-conscious response to the song of the lyrium? Is the reason they find it easier to locate mages and their desire to possess them rather than ordinary mortals because of the concentration of lyrium in their blood? Although if that was the case, wouldn't the lyrium brand on a tranquil act like a beacon to spirits rather than the opposite? When Flemeth says: "So long as the music plays we dance", is she referring to the song of the lyrium? I think that last part is highly likely.
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Post by warden on Oct 25, 2020 16:26:50 GMT
I've been pondering the connection between spirits and lyrium. In Awakening Justice is fascinated by lyrium and in particular is drawn to the song it makes. This made me wonder if spirits originally crossing from the Fade to the Waking World when there was no Veil was in response to the song of the lyrium in the earth. Then when they made contact with the earth they formed bodies, may be even as a result of touching the lyrium there. These were the First of the Elvhen. When the Earth fought back against this invasion, the war occurred that resulted in Elgar'nan and Mythal conquering the titans, thus allowing the Elvhen direct access to even more lyrium. Even normal lyrium can have a bad effect on people in its raw state and can eventually drive them to madness as well as other lesser symptoms such as deafness, nausea and memory loss. Of course it is meant to be particularly lethal to mages but the Evanuris were not ordinary mages. Still I do wonder if overuse or continued proximity to lyrium had a bad effect on them, without taking into account the red stuff. Why does lyrium sing? The dwarves can hear this too and it helps them locate the richest seems but it is hardly surprising they are attuned to the stuff considering they are the children of the titans. Is the longing of demons to cross the Veil not simply a desire to experience the world there but also a sub-conscious response to the song of the lyrium? Is the reason they find it easier to locate mages and their desire to possess them rather than ordinary mortals because of the concentration of lyrium in their blood? Although if that was the case, wouldn't the lyrium brand on a tranquil act like a beacon to spirits rather than the opposite? When Flemeth says: "So long as the music plays we dance", is she referring to the song of the lyrium? That reminds me of Grey Wardens hearing the calling, it starts with nightmares and bad omens then it switches to eerie music and whispers, it's always fascinating and quite interesting.
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Post by sandwichtern on Oct 25, 2020 20:32:25 GMT
And I have to wonder - we know that Solas can effectively kill surface dwarves in their sleep, but what about the dwarves who have never left the shelter of The Stone? You know in hindisight that particular ability of his does seem a little OP and not quite matching with the lore because it does beg the question, how is he able to do this? There are hints in the story that in fact he was not responsible for the death of the dwarves but the Carta guy may have actually done it himself. The Executor also mentions a Crow poison that is heavier than air and so would only affect those lying down. Also, even if Solas did kill them in some way, it may have been through using the elf who was present to locate them, acting as a sort of living foci. Remember Varric has been drawn into the Fade twice by other people's dreams/rituals, so the presence of the elf could explain how a Dreamer attack was successful against dwarves, particularly as they were surface dwarves, like Varric. *snip* It seems Patrick Weekes has been getting same Youtube recommendations as I have.😆 The Crow poison you describe sounds like sulfur hexafluoride which is a colourless and odourless gas. Though non-toxic, it is six times heavier than normal air (so if you release it, it settles in low-lying areas) and inhaling it too much carries the risk asphyxia, since it displaces oxygen in the lungs.
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Post by yogsothoth on Oct 27, 2020 3:01:39 GMT
I've been pondering the connection between spirits and lyrium. I'm going with Spirits/Demons being the bits of the Stone that was chipped away by the dwarves. I believe that the Stone and the Void are tied together, if not one-in-the-same. I believe the Titans are responsible for overlooking the cycle of life-death-rebirth in Thedas. When dwarves die, they return to the Stone. When Spirits die, they return to the Void, and are reborn as a wisp. I think that the Titans are essentially in a Spirit-binding ritual with the Stone, making them the Shapers, and that they use the Stone to craft dwarves for whatever they need. When they made dwarves, if they were successful, they simply got a new individual that was Borg'd. If they did not succeed in making a new dwarf, this failure would remain in the Stone as a broken or fragment of a soul, becoming the Gangue. The dwarves would be tasked in chipping the "impurity of the Stone" away to cleanse it and allow it to be recycled properly. (Note in the Hissing Wastes, Cole says of the Gangue Shades that "they still think they're dwarves" or something to that effect). I think the song of the Lyrium is the same as the Stone Sense, and the Spirits are reacting to it, as a call back to the Stone. We also know that some Spirits are motivated by "joining the living" according to Solas. I don't not remember off the top of my head, but there was one Spirit/Demon that mentioned that they were interested in the real world because the ever-changing nature of the Fade meant that nothing they built lasted, so they wanted to go to the real world in order to build something with permanence. In fact, Mythal being able to keep her previous being even after being killed seems to prove that the Evanuris were very successful in gaining permenance. Further evidence for the Stone/Void being connected is that when the Magisters breached the Black City, instead of returning where they came from, they returned in the Deep Roads. So it went Thedas->Fade->Black City->Blighted->???->Deep Roads. The ??? would then be ...->Void->Stone->..., as they were reborn as Darkspawn, since they clearly are not Ghouls like humans who are normally exposed to the Blight turn into. I believe that Bioware is setting up some kind of metaphysical biology of sentient beings, in that there is a body, mind, and soul. The body is the physical, the ability to experience. The mind is the will, the ability to act. The soul is the creative, the ability to imagine . The body exists in the physical, the soul exists in the Fade, and the mind is the connection between the two. We know that the consciousness leaves the person when they sleep and goes to the Fade. Sprits are pure mind, and without a body, can not have a soul and lack creativity. In order to perform magic, there is some connection required between the three, and the lyrium brand is the severing of this connection, likely the same way that Templars assert reality over magic/the Fade. The difference with the dwarves is that their soul is "hibernating" as long as the Titans sleep, or the nature of their soul is different after being separated from the Titans, and this difference is why they can't perform magic but don't lack emotions like the Tranquil. Non-mages are similar, but there is some other element that determines how "awake" their soul is. To expand on this slightly, I believe that the Fade is the mind/dreamscape of the Titans, and that all beings are connected to this "hivemind" to some extent. We know that all consciousness is connected, as all people, excluding dwarves whose nature is different from the other races, dream and their consciousness goes to the Fade. Even the Darkspawn are connected, as the Archdemon reaches to the Grey Wardens in their dreams. (I've said this before, but I believe that the Darkspawn are creations of the Titans and are essentially the corrupted version of their hivemind unleashed as retribution against the Evanuris). Unrelated note, I think this is also where the Qunari got their idea for their triumvirate. It could also be the song of the Old Gods, especially given her ties to dragons. If I were to guess, I would say that it refers to whatever the song of the Maker is, which could be the song of the Titans/Lyrium, since it seems that there is some form of predetermined destiny in the series that Mythal is at least somewhat privy to given her prophetic statements, and the prophecy apparently given to Sandal, throughout the series. If I'm correct about the Titans being the engineers of the cycle of life and death, then perhaps this could even refer to Mythal being aware of the cycle and that she will always come back so long as the Titans/Lyrium exists.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 27, 2020 10:12:33 GMT
Further evidence for the Stone/Void being connected is that when the Magisters breached the Black City, instead of returning where they came from, they returned in the Deep Roads. So it went Thedas->Fade->Black City->Blighted->???->Deep Roads. The ??? would then be ...->Void->Stone->..., as they were reborn as Darkspawn, since they clearly are not Ghouls like humans who are normally exposed to the Blight turn into. I agree. IMO the Black City could be some kind of "bridge" between the Fade and the Void. The source of the blight/corruption is probably (in) the Void. Another way to access the Void is probably going deep down, beyond the titans, towards the heart of thedas. If the void is a kind of "hollow center of the earth", then the Stone (and/or the titans) in a certain sense is protecting surface life from the void, containing it, enclosing it. Killing the Titans is probably not a good idea. Nor is doing weird experiments with the Black City. Anyway, I hope that in DA4 they will give important and definitive clarifications about the Lore. As long as it is all immersed in a sort of mysticism, " legends/religions say it is was so but hey, who knows?", it could also be good to maintain an aura of mystery. Did magister cause the blight? Or has it always existed? And the black city? Have they ever been there? Who knows. And the Elven pantheon? Myths, like Zeus and Thor? Something more? Who knows. There was no need to answer that questions. But in dragon age inquisition they have decided to answer: Yes, almost everything that the ancient legends tell about gods, magister, magic etc. is REAL (maybe not in all details) So, now they need to explain and organize. They must absolutely avoid becoming like Lost and accumulate too many mysteries, mysteries beyond oddities that contains other mysteris, and in general not properly clarified cause-effect mechanisms.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Nov 6, 2020 20:52:59 GMT
I've been thinking about Solas' past and what defined him before he took The Dread Wolf's name, and after replaying his personal mission, I've come to a theory.
What caught my attention was Solas' guess as to why the mages actually summoned the spirit - and how he was wrong. Solas initally thought that the mages sought to torture the spirit in order to find knowledge, when in fact, the mages just summoned the spirit to protect themselves. If Solas was afraid of the wisdom spirit being tortured for information, he must've witnessed something similar in the past - possibly his other wisdom spirit friends. I don't think Solas experienced this, however, or at least not with Mythal.
I think that Mythal had a similar experience with Solas as The Inquisitor does with Cole. Cole, a spirit of compassion, aided the Inquisitor in their quest to restore order by killing evil and helping the hurt. I believe Solas, as a helpful spirit of wisdom, aided Mythal. But why? And why did he need to have a body to help her further? It couldn't be to solely help in her judgements, giving wisdom, as Mythal's nature overshadows Solas' nature in regards to that. I believe his role was aiding Mythal and the Elvhen people in the war with the Titans.
Solas, being a spirit of wisdom, is curious and explorative. It is in his nature to seek knowledge, answers, people, lore, etc., just as he described his spirit of wisdom friend in All New, Faded for Her. Cole stated that "In his own way, he knew wisdom, as no man or spirit had before," and curiously, when descending into the Deep Roads in Descent, Solas is fascinated and curious by Dwarven craftsmanship, and states that it must come from "something." I presume that "something" are the Titans, and his comment exemplifies his curiosity in the beings. I believe that curiosity is what lead him to discover knowledge about that Titans, that "something else" that they were mining, and precisely why Mythal asked him to gain physical form. She "asked him to come" to The Deep Roads because she wanted his guidance and to fight for the elves. Pride.
When Cole (Honestly S/O to Cole's insight lol) states that Solas wanted to give "wisdom, not orders" I believe it's a direct comment on the war, that he wanted to share knowledge about The Titans and not give orders to defeat them. The interesting thing is, that according to notes found in the Arbor Wilds, the elves had thought that the Titans were defeated. We know that they aren't dead, but are crippled. Why would Solas and Mythal fight against something so pure to Thedas? Hopefully that question will be answered in the next installment. There's still so much that we don't know about The Titans, and while I think Mythal and Solas intentions were pure, their dealings with the Titans ultimately lead to the fall of the Elvhen Empire, as suggested by the codex found in Trespasser on the Death of a Titan mural.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 6, 2020 21:31:05 GMT
There's still so much that we don't know about The Titans, and while I think Mythal and Solas intentions were pure, their dealings with the Titans ultimately lead to the fall of the Elvhen Empire, as suggested by the codex found in Trespasser on the Death of a Titan mural. I'm not entirely sure that Mythal's intentions were pure even if Solas' were originally. Mythal protected her people. Solas says that when Falon'Din was running out of control she didn't actually do anything about him until he threatened her own. So I think it is entirely possible that she took action against the titans purely because they had attacked her people or her cities/creations (Gelduran specifically mentions that Mythal is known for her cities). As you say, though, it could have been that she summoned Solas because she needed his knowledge and then commanded him to act against his nature, turning him much darker as a result. Even in Dalish legends he is credited with "dark wisdom". As I've said previously, I feel that the First of the People were wrong to attack the Titans because they had no business being on the surface of the world and the Titans were only acting in self defence. If, as you suggest, that ultimately led to the fall of their Empire then they only had themselves to blame.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Nov 6, 2020 21:50:41 GMT
I'm not entirely sure that Mythal's intentions were pure even if Solas' were originally. Mythal protected her people. Solas says that when Falon'Din was running out of control she didn't actually do anything about him until he threatened her own. So I think it is entirely possible that she took action against the titans purely because they had attacked her people or her cities/creations (Gelduran specifically mentions that Mythal is known for her cities). As you say, though, it could have been that she summoned Solas because she needed his knowledge and then commanded him to act against his nature, turning him much darker as a result. Even in Dalish legends he is credited with "dark wisdom" I should have phrased it that Mythal thought that her intentions were pure, and her experience with the Titans is an example of a mistake that many dragon age characters, like Solas, end up making. I assume that is where Mythal's regret lies, as she now sees the error of her ways.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 17, 2020 6:15:43 GMT
Not so much a theory but something I have been reading/ listening to which causes me some confusion. Mainly, what the heck is up with Lyrium? It seems a bit contradictory the more I think about it since A. mages use it as a bridge to the fade, reinforcing their spells and their ability to use magic. B. And yet Templars also use it to, as Cole would say, to 'reinforce reality' and that is how they use their powers. Complicating this further it has been mentioned, I believe, that Red Lyrium also weakens the Fade IE does not reinforce reality. This does make sense granted as Red Lyrium seems opposite of the blue stuff BUT then that still leaves the seeming contradiction with Blue Lyrium being able to do both and then Red Lyrium just being able to do it...more?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2020 18:41:49 GMT
Mainly, what the heck is up with Lyrium? I never understood why it could both connect mages to the Fade and yet be used to cut them off as well. That is a paradox I can't explain. The waters were muddied further by the revelation that the Rite of Tranquility can be reversed by a spirit merely "touching" the mind, as declared by Pharamond in Asunder even before we got all that confusing stuff about the Seekers. However, in that case, why wasn't Karl permanently healed by Justice touching his mind? As for the Templars use of lyrium, I suppose that can be explained by the fact they are channeling magical power in order to counter magic in much the same way as many defensive mage spells do. Since Solas creating the Veil to cut off the Fade must have been done with magic, he was essentially reinforcing reality using magic, so I sort of get where he was coming from on that one. Besides the fact that he was talking to Cassandra and whilst had the Templar spec in game in fact her abilities should have been totally different because she is channeling the power of a spirit. On a related note of confusing magic, why does blood magic thin the Veil and yet Solas maintains it makes his connection with the Fade more difficult? For that matter why do large amounts of deaths in a particular place thin the Veil? Or is it simply not that the Veil is any thinner but the pressure of so many demons pushing against it eventually allows it to give way? Why did lyrium start off being described as a mineral but is now said to be organic (blood) and capable of being infected with the blight? Why is red lyrium able to be "farmed" by growing it on living things? Why do both sorts of lyrium have such a bad effect on the minds of mortals. It takes longer with standard lyrium but both have a debilitating effect on the person's sanity so the red stuff does it quicker simply because the blight seems to make it stronger.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2020 20:27:25 GMT
Mainly, what the heck is up with Lyrium? I never understood why it could both connect mages to the Fade and yet be used to cut them off as well. That is a paradox I can't explain. The waters were muddied further by the revelation that the Rite of Tranquility can be reversed by a spirit merely "touching" the mind, as declared by Pharamond in Asunder even before we got all that confusing stuff about the Seekers. However, in that case, why wasn't Karl permanently healed by Justice touching his mind? As for the Templars use of lyrium, I suppose that can be explained by the fact they are channeling magical power in order to counter magic in much the same way as many defensive mage spells do. Since Solas creating the Veil to cut off the Fade must have been done with magic, he was essentially reinforcing reality using magic, so I sort of get where he was coming from on that one. Besides the fact that he was talking to Cassandra and whilst had the Templar spec in game in fact her abilities should have been totally different because she is channeling the power of a spirit. On a related note of confusing magic, why does blood magic thin the Veil and yet Solas maintains it makes his connection with the Fade more difficult? For that matter why do large amounts of deaths in a particular place thin the Veil? Or is it simply not that the Veil is any thinner but the pressure of so many demons pushing against it eventually allows it to give way? Why did lyrium start off being described as a mineral but is now said to be organic (blood) and capable of being infected with the blight? Why is red lyrium able to be "farmed" by growing it on living things? Why do both sorts of lyrium have such a bad effect on the minds of mortals. It takes longer with standard lyrium but both have a debilitating effect on the person's sanity so the red stuff does it quicker simply because the blight seems to make it stronger. Probably Anders' body worked like a "veil" (some obstacle)? Cassandra's abilities are disappointing. No sense – their source of power is totally different. Also: how the Seekers being Tranquil? With a long, deep meditation? In this codex Cassandra says, she didn't even know, she made tranqil... How it happened? Who did her Tranquil?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2020 20:59:23 GMT
With a long, deep meditation? In this codex Cassandra says, she didn't even know, she made tranqil... How it happened? Who did her Tranquil? I've said before that as a test of faith this makes no sense. Cassandra wasn't even aware she had been tranquil until she read the Seeker Tome. So as you say, who made her tranquil if she didn't even know it was being done? I could understand a person meditating on the Maker and their faith in him would draw a spirit of faith but surely a tranquil would have no motivation to do this? Even if they did it would be like a computer recalling the Maker (think of the tranquil who served Meredith) not an expression of utter devotion to their deity. In real life when mystics talk of emptying themselves of emotion, they simply mean all other thoughts that might distract from their contemplation of the Divine. That would not be the same as a tranquil who is devoid of emotion, particularly if it wasn't a self-imposed "emptying of emotion" but an external process applied to the individual. So why would a faith spirit be attracted to this person? How would it detect they were "pure" in mind? It seems to me it is just a case of someone tricking a faith spirit into touching the mind of the Seeker that has nothing to do with their actual faith. It is another of these paradoxes that make no sense. I'd also like it explained how it bestows these powers on the Seeker. They are immune to blood magic mind manipulation and possession; they can turn lyrium into flame in the blood of both mages and Templars and use this to paralyse, interrogate or even kill, just like the blood magic spells. This is far more than is normally possible with a spirit warrior and if it is a demon giving the power in blood magic, then surely it is the faith spirit that continues to give the powers in Seekers? So what would happen if the person lost their faith? Would the faith spirit abandon them? Also let us not forget that Templars barely tolerate Spirit Healers and hunt down Spirit Warriors because their abilities look too much like magic and involve spirits, yet are blissfully unaware of the true nature of Seekers. Yet more Chantry hypocrisy over the use of magic.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2020 21:09:47 GMT
With a long, deep meditation? In this codex Cassandra says, she didn't even know, she made tranqil... How it happened? Who did her Tranquil? I've said before that as a test of faith this makes no sense. Cassandra wasn't even aware she had been tranquil until she read the Seeker Tome. So as you say, who made her tranquil if she didn't even know it was being done? I could understand a person meditating on the Maker and their faith in him would draw a spirit of faith but surely a tranquil would have no motivation to do this? Even if they did it would be like a computer recalling the Maker (think of the tranquil who served Meredith) not an expression of utter devotion to their deity. In real life when mystics talk of emptying themselves of emotion, they simply mean all other thoughts that might distract from their contemplation of the Divine. That would not be the same as a tranquil who is devoid of emotion, particularly if it wasn't a self-imposed "emptying of emotion" but an external process applied to the individual. So why would a faith spirit be attracted to this person? How would it detect they were "pure" in mind? It seems to me it is just a case of someone tricking a faith spirit into touching the mind of the Seeker that has nothing to do with their actual faith. It is another of these paradoxes that make no sense. I'd also like it explained how it bestows these powers on the Seeker. They are immune to blood magic mind manipulation and possession; they can turn lyrium into flame in the blood of both mages and Templars and use this to paralyse, interrogate or even kill, just like the blood magic spells. This is far more than is normally possible with a spirit warrior and if it is a demon giving the power in blood magic, then surely it is the faith spirit that continues to give the powers in Seekers? So what would happen if the person lost their faith? Would the faith spirit abandon them? Also let us not forget that Templars barely tolerate Spirit Healers and hunt down Spirit Warriors because their abilities look too much like magic and involve spirits, yet are blissfully unaware of the true nature of Seekers. Yet more Chantry hypocrisy over the use of magic. As Anders by Justice's presence... – Sure Justice wouldn't let Anders to mind controlled, and of course not to be possessed... (we saw in Deep Roads, Justice tried to protect him – but Corypheus isn't a simple "blood mage").
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2020 22:11:09 GMT
As Anders by Justice's presence... What was it that Anders joked after the Fade? "There's nothing like possession to keep you from temptation." The reason Corypheus was controlling him was the because of the taint in his blood, which allowed him to overcome the spirit protection. Then we agreed on the Anders thread that Justice coming to the fore was because of him trying to protect Anders from the control. Mind you, apparently Corypheus was capable of controlling spirits because Cole was afraid of this and without the amulet to protect him I think Corypheus would have been capable of it. Of course, that may have had something to do with Solas' orb as clearly the taint would not have been involved. Anyway, since we now know that they intended some sort of redeemed warden plot for Anders in the Exalted March, it seems likely that after that first assault by Corypheus probably Justice was able to protect Anders from further attacks. Of course with the EM not happening, they reverted to the idea of Hawke being concerned about the effect of Corypheus on Anders to explain his absence.
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Post by yogsothoth on Nov 17, 2020 23:51:18 GMT
Mainly, what the heck is up with Lyrium? However, in that case, why wasn't Karl permanently healed by Justice touching his mind? Karl himself says that being in the presence of Justice was what brought him out of Tranquility. It would stand to reason then that this is not enough to be considered "touched." Solas may be referring to his Dreamer/Somniari abilities rather than his connection in general. It may also be a matter of what kind of blood is used. Perhaps non-Titan blood can only be used to thin, while Lyrium can both strengthen and weaken. I believe this was always the intention, with the play on words by having all Lyrium deposits in earlier games being listed as "Veins" of Lyrium. By the nature of the Blight, which grows and consumes living things. As I noted in my large comment above, all sentient beings sans dwarves have an inherent connection to the Fade which is a dreamscape that is shaped by the minds of those who perceive it. Lyrium's connection to Titans is clear, and if I'm correct that the Titans are also responsible for the Fade, Lyrium affecting living beings connection to the Fade, and therefore their minds, makes sense. I've said before that as a test of faith this makes no sense. Cassandra wasn't even aware she had been tranquil until she read the Seeker Tome. So as you say, who made her tranquil if she didn't even know it was being done? I could understand a person meditating on the Maker and their faith in him would draw a spirit of faith but surely a tranquil would have no motivation to do this? Even if they did it would be like a computer recalling the Maker (think of the tranquil who served Meredith) not an expression of utter devotion to their deity. In real life when mystics talk of emptying themselves of emotion, they simply mean all other thoughts that might distract from their contemplation of the Divine. That would not be the same as a tranquil who is devoid of emotion, particularly if it wasn't a self-imposed "emptying of emotion" but an external process applied to the individual. So why would a faith spirit be attracted to this person? How would it detect they were "pure" in mind? It seems to me it is just a case of someone tricking a faith spirit into touching the mind of the Seeker that has nothing to do with their actual faith. It is another of these paradoxes that make no sense. I'd also like it explained how it bestows these powers on the Seeker. They are immune to blood magic mind manipulation and possession; they can turn lyrium into flame in the blood of both mages and Templars and use this to paralyse, interrogate or even kill, just like the blood magic spells. This is far more than is normally possible with a spirit warrior and if it is a demon giving the power in blood magic, then surely it is the faith spirit that continues to give the powers in Seekers? So what would happen if the person lost their faith? Would the faith spirit abandon them? Also let us not forget that Templars barely tolerate Spirit Healers and hunt down Spirit Warriors because their abilities look too much like magic and involve spirits, yet are blissfully unaware of the true nature of Seekers. Yet more Chantry hypocrisy over the use of magic. Seekers make themselves Tranquil by willfully removing their connection to the Fade. We know it can be forcefully done, so I don't think it's that far fetched that someone, especially ones so dedicated to "emptying" themselves could do the same. It is even said by Cassandra that being able to complete the ritual is exceedingly rare and dangerous. If I'm correct about the nature of the body-mind-soul connection (again, see earlier giant post), it would make sense that putting such a strain on the body would cause the mind to detach and making them tranquil. Then other Seekers who are overseeing the Rite call a Spirit of Faith and direct it to the initiate to reconnect them. I think it is also likely that someone who undergoing the Rite to become a Seeker is also probably going to inherently draw a Spirit of Faith to them while undergoing the Rite, so when they become Tranquil, the Seekers just have some means of pointing out the Tranquil to the Spirit to get it to restore their mind. Since all beings have an inherit connection to the Fade, this rejoining of the body with the Fade is responsible for their new, magic-like abilities. It does not grant full magehood, but it's just enough to give them a few "spells" e.g. burning Lyrium. I do not think that Seekers are still possessed, as that probably would have been mentioned by Cassandra. It would be like the Fade-touched materials in Inquisition, regular objects that have some magical property to it that resulted by exposure to the Fade. Side note but this might also be tied to the Litany of Adralla, which allows non-mages to counter mind control from blood magic and demons.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 18, 2020 3:09:34 GMT
Mainly, what the heck is up with Lyrium? It seems a bit contradictory the more I think about it since A. mages use it as a bridge to the fade, reinforcing their spells and their ability to use magic. B. And yet Templars also use it to, as Cole would say, to 'reinforce reality' and that is how they use their powers. As for the Templars use of lyrium, I suppose that can be explained by the fact they are channeling magical power in order to counter magic in much the same way as many defensive mage spells do. Since Solas creating the Veil to cut off the Fade must have been done with magic, he was essentially reinforcing reality using magic, so I sort of get where he was coming from on that one. My theory before Cole's reveals always was that the templars are some kind of (hypocritical) proxy mages, using lyrium to acquire a very limited casting capability that is solely focused on Dispel. Plus a whole collection of enchanted gizmos, like that 40% mag res armour from DAO.
Side note but this might also be tied to the Litany of Adralla, which allows non-mages to counter mind control from blood magic and demons. Ever since I noticed it reappearing in Asunder, I wonder what it actually is. An enchanted item that basically carries all the magic in itself, ready to be used by anyone (except a mabari, if we look a DAO's mechanics) or is it really just a kind of incantation/invocation which still needs to access a source of magic, which would make it unsuable for anyone but mages and SoTs (like Lambert).
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